Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[GenoToto]

I've always felt Echos or general Clones were justified in that - even if they did play the same (or at least, similar enough to not be considered their own character), the character in question is still a face that someone out there wants to see in the game, and therefore, the inclusion of Echoes or clones is justified by the fact that it makes someone happy, when all these other inclusions make anybody else happy.

At the end of the day, the game might be made for me... but, the game isn't made for me. You know?

Either way - I'd like to think, at least as far as Smash goes, the concept of a clone character has evolved into something that is at least a touch more varied than it originally was back in Ye day. If it's easier to code for, and it gives other people a chance to have their favorites in the ring, I'm all for it. Yes -- fully unique movesets are more welcome than not, but, anything is better than nothing, and the inclusion on its own means the character is recognized and respected enough to take part in the fight.

 

[Firox]

I think the budget comment is actually good for us. Because he very clearly said before that they had a surplus of time and money. All the licensing fees would have been payed by then, and Sakurai knows how much it costs to make the big trailers. It seems like there must have been some kind of major extra cost to go from a surplus to having to cut down on production. Unless something went really REALLY wrong with one of the characters, it sounds to me like they ended up paying for something extra. I really feel like they're doing some kind of bonus character. That would explain the discrepancy.

Words cannot express how much I hope this is the case. I want to believe that Nintendo blew most of the budget securing the rights. I would absolutely HATE to think that Nintendo would just decide to leave one of their most lucrative franchises and one of the most distinguished developers in the industry with nothing but pocket change simply because they didn't think it was worth it. Granted, we don't exactly know the cost/profit ratio for Smash DLC, but I have a hard time accepting the notion that it isn't a massive cash cow.

Now, with that in mind, I will say this: If we don't get Geno OR at least his Mii costume when everything is said and done, I'm gonna be pretty crushed. It would mean that either

A) Squeenix was unimaginably costly in their negotiations, so much so that they wouldn't even let a pre-existing costume into the game

B) In junction with A, Nintendo just doesn't see Geno as big enough of a priority to care

or

C) Despite all that he's said and done, Sakurai just really doesn't see Geno as a worthwhile pick. This particular notion is confusing to me considering the fact that he made the costume in the first place and bothered to get B-K to satisfy the fans. Then again, he did prioritize PP over a myriad of characters which is still a massive elephant in the room, like it or not.

Bottom line, if we see nothing of Geno even after the DLC has fully run its course, I wouldn't get my hopes too high for the future because SOMETHING would be blocking him from behind the scenes in a very tangible way. None of this is to say that Geno doesn't still have a chance, but rather to offer some unbiased deductive reasoning of one possible outcome. Like I've said before, at this point, it's all or nothing.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

what would actually be the harm in an Echo Fighters pass anyhow? It'd take a lot less time and resources to develop, meaning it would come out a lot sooner and would cost significantly less than a full-fledged new fighter, especially considering they wouldn't need to be bundled with new music and a whole new stage due to being from an existing character's universe,

This just sounds like you're settling for less. Who cares if it costs significantly less to create echo fighters than it is to make full unique characters with their own stages? Why do we have to worry about that? We're consumers! We're supposed to expect great things from professional game developers that have been in the gaming business since the late 70's! I'd rather wait for a unique character to come out a quarter of a year than just wait a couple of weeks for some boring echo fighters to come out by the dozen.

and I think you'd agree that there are plenty of characters such as Medusa or Black Shadow who don't have a ghost of a chance compared to the likes of Geno or Crash and would never cut it as completely unique fighters, but could as Echo Fighters.

Why not save them for next time when they do have a larger fanbase and have more time evolve as characters to become unique or pseudo clones? Characters don't have to be fighters just because they exist.

Echo Fighters have never taken a spot from other more unique characters.
But that's really all they've ever done with the clones in Melee. Other than that, they play almost exactly the same as their base fighters, so it's kind of a moot point if you ask me.

It's not a moot point because it is exactly my point. If Echo fighters have to exist, that's fine but they should at least have different stat attributes like Melee clones which everyone seems to be glossing over and think I unrealistically expect all echo fighters to be replaced with Unique characters.

I agree that it's weird that Ken and Chrom get to be somewhat different to their counterpart, but in general, echo fighters literally take less work than Melee's "clone" characters.

Sakurai had way less time to make Melee and no DLC to help him but clone characters still ended up having noticeably different attributes from their base characters.

Roy, Doc and Falco were more in line with modern echo fighters because they had different design philosophies, but the base character was still obvious.

Difference is, most of Roy, Doc and Falco's moves have different properties while Echo Fighters pretty much play the exact same as their base counterparts. Only difference with Lucina and Chrom is that they destroy the entire point of playing as Marth and Roy respectively.

 

[Deleted member]

Then again, he did priority PP over a myriad of characters which is still a massive elephant in the room, like it or not.

He prioritized every character that has ever been in the series, as well as Inkling, Ridley, K. Rool, Simon, Isabelle, Incineroar and a handful of echo fighters over the Plant. There'd be an argument if Plant was revealed as base roster and, say, Ridley was the free DLC, but I think by the time they came to a consensus on the "joke" character, Nintendo had hit the bottom of the barrel on first party characters and didn't want to put forward anymore licensing fees on the base game budget.

I don't like P. Plant either, but having an assumption of how development went, I can't really say anyone was robbed, least of all Geno.

 

[JarBear]

Firox said:
Then again, he did priority PP over a myriad of characters which is still a massive elephant in the room, like it or not.

I understand the feeling, which like many Smash fans (not all) are unhappy with the choice. However, not in defense of the plant, but the reality is Plant is the joke/random fighter that each installment has. So Plant's inclusion wouldn't have taken a fighter slot away from a non-joke/random fighter.

Granted, there are better 1st party CHARACTERS that could have filled that role, but that is a different issue.

Go Geno.

 

[Vector Victor]

Since the chances are probable that the next Smash will be rebooted and the roster trimmed, I'm all for echoes in Ultimate. Throw all the bodies you can into it. Plus, that opens up better chances for a character to make the cut (unique Dixie is nice, but she might get a better edge by being echo Diddy with a hair twirl Up B).

I think one complaint with clones in 4 wasn't just that they were clones, but who the clones were. Both FE and KI getting clones while Pikmin (based on the alt costume promotion) didn't was a sore point for some (although, Lucina didn't get much backlash at the time as she was popular and FE complaints didn't form until later. Dark Pit, on the other hand...... yea, he was despised.) It didn't help that 4 focused more on adding new franchises than expanding established ones besides Mario and Pokemon. So the problem came up that two series received a newcomer AND an echo on top of that, while other series like DK, Pikmin, Metroid, ZELDA, didn't get anything, despite clearly having big named fan favorites.

In fact, despite having the biggest roster addition to the series, did anyone else find 4's roster to be.....lacking years later?

 

[Firox]

He prioritized every character that has ever been in the series, as well as Inkling, Ridley, K. Rool, Simon, Isabelle, Incineroar and a handful of echo fighters over the Plant. There'd be an argument if Plant was revealed as base roster and, say, Ridley was the free DLC, but I think by the time they came to a consensus on the "joke" character, Nintendo had hit the bottom of the barrel on first party characters and didn't want to put forward anymore licensing fees on the base game budget.

I don't like P. Plant either, but having an assumption of how development went, I can't really say anyone was robbed, least of all Geno.

Allow me to clarify my statement. I wasn't trying to convey a specific dislike for PP, but rather to point out that its inclusion made a very powerful statement. One that isn't particularly positive for Geno, or especially any other 1st party characters for that matter. To use your own words, if PP was the "bottom of the barrel" of 1st party characters, what does that say about the rest? What does that say about Waluigi, Birdo, or any other less prominent 1st party characters?

Let's use the example of kids picking teams for dodge ball. If you're the last one to get picked, what does that say about you? If even the kid with two broken arms got picked before you, it wouldn't say anything good. Either you're the lamest dodge ball player of the group or the captains just flat out don't like you.

I'm not going to delve into any in-depth character comparisons here, and I'm not trying to bash the plant in any way, I'm just saying that "joke" character or not, there is a distinctive difference in PP's inclusion compared to the rest of the entire roster. You're right. Inkling, Simon, K rool etc were prioritized before PP, but that's how it SHOULD have been. While Sakurai still gets the last say, there was obvious demand for all of those characters. PP, however, was obviously 100% based on Sakurai's whims, just as G&W, WFT, ROB, etc were before it. Is he entitled to that? Sure. He's the content creator. But that also shows that he holds his creative freedom first and foremost over the sheer will of the fans. Interpret that how you will.

 

[GenoToto]

In fact, despite having the biggest roster addition to the series, did anyone else find 4's roster to be.....lacking years later?

I don't think it's so much that it was lacking, per se, but more that the omissions to the roster were particularly glaring:

- Wolf was out
- Ice Climbers were out
- Pokemon Trainer was cut into a third
- Snake was gone
- Lucas was gone initially
- Mewtwo was still gone (until DLC), with the whole accidental 'fake out' that was Greninja

While the roster's size had increased, the omissions were pretty large, and by the time any real heavy-hitting DLC was coming out, I can't help but feel like most peoples' attention to the game had been waning at that point. Big players like Mega Man, PAC-MAN, Cloud, Ryu, Bayonetta -- these were absolutely sizable entrants who one would never expect to be present in a Smash game. But... the various other factors that made Smash 4 a sort of "ehhh" package as a whole certainly did nothing to help the general impact of the title.

 

[Ovaltine]

Things have gotten so dour in the past couple of days in this thread, and while I understand why, let's keep our hope as strong as we can make it. I loathe the idea of the worst case scenario (Geno only having his spirit, therefore being downgraded from his Smash 4 content), but while there are things against us, there are little things that continue to make me curious. There's only so much that we know at this point, which is a double-edged sword. We're still in the dark, and we don't know. For all we know, the budget comments aren't as bad as we're making it out to be. They are admittedly rather vague, and we don't know everything behind the scenes, which can be a good or bad thing for Geno. We just don't know.

Maybe I'm just feeling complacent and chill about it all because I have bigger fish to fry (hi, Hurricane Dorian, not excited to see you come Sunday/Monday ), but I can't say I'm worried just yet. Vergeben also came out recently on GF and stated flat-out that the female mecha stuff on 4chan is fake, so chances are, people either have an idea of or flat-out know who the next character is. Considering all we've got so far is the starling hint, while I'm not expecting it, I wouldn't be too surprised if the next DLC was Jill Valentine... and would be pleasantly surprised if it was Geno. While I'm veering towards Jill being the likely outcome, I'm not about to rule Geno out.

 

[wynn728]

Firox said:
Then again, he did priority PP over a myriad of characters which is still a massive elephant in the room, like it or not.

I understand the feeling, which like many Smash fans (not all) are unhappy with the choice. However, not in defense of the plant, but the reality is Plant is the joke/random fighter that each installment has. So Plant's inclusion wouldn't have taken a fighter slot away from a non-joke/random fighter.

Granted, there are better 1st party CHARACTERS that could have filled that role, but that is a different issue.

Go Geno.

But here's the thing, did we really need a joke character in Ultimate? They go on about how they couldn't add so many newcomers so instead of putting a joke character as one of the 7 newcomers it would've been best to try to fill as much fan demand as possible. If they really wanted a joke character than Waluigi is honestly the best candidate you can ask for. Many people requested Waluigi for a out every Smash Bros game and that's a character that you can literally do anything with.

With a lot of the other Smash Bros games we got a bunch of newcomers to a point where one joke character is glossed over. But when that joke character takes up about 14% of base newcomers it will stick out like a sore thumb while MANY requested characters are basically sitting in Assist Trophy prison or skinned to be Mii Costumes, and at worst lost their bodies and can only be a PNG. When you look at it like that it's hard to not interpret that Sakurai really doesn't care.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Vergeben also came out recently on GF and stated flat-out that the female mecha stuff on 4chan is fake,

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to post this. In case anyone wanted to see how the leak evolved from Dora the Explorer to Putt putt the car!

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to post this. In case anyone wanted to see how the leak evolved from Dora the Explorer to Putt putt the car!

View attachment 236046

I can't believe we're finally getting Richard Dastardly and Muttley.

edit: come tf on...

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Trying to catch up to the thread, but I wanted to say that I am a-ok with echo fighters. As someone who would have gladly killed off a few of the original 12 just to get Dark Samus in, I may be a little biased. But at least consider this: if a character gets in as an echo, there's no reason they can't one day get more to differentiate themselves more in future games. But the great animations that Dark Samus has are more than enough for me.

 

[JarBear]

I don't disagree with any of those points ... more of the reality on what Sakurai does with having that one Joke/Random/Obscure character in Smash. It gives the game "character" (There are fans of such fighters like Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, Etc.) which is true.

However, I agree Smash Ultimate is meant to be ... Ultimate? It seems unnecessary to add such a fighter when there has been, and still is, fan demand for certain fighters and instead gives us a common mario enemy.

After Daisy was revealed ... I gotta admit, that was a slap in Waluigi's face. I am not personally a Waluigi fan, nothing for or against him, but even that I had to say "Come on...."

 

[GenoToto]

I can't believe we're finally getting Richard Dastardly and Muttley.

edit: come tf on...

"Please - my friends call me Richard.."

Or rather,

"Pardon me, Richard was my father's name."

Edit: I don't think I've ever seen an auto-censor do that particular edit before. Endlessly amused.

 

[Firox]

Things have gotten so dour in the past couple of days in this thread, and while I understand why, let's keep our hope as strong as we can make it. I loathe the idea of the worst case scenario (Geno only having his spirit, therefore being downgraded from his Smash 4 content), but while there are things against us, there are little things that continue to make me curious. There's only so much that we know at this point, which is a double-edged sword. We're still in the dark, and we don't know. For all we know, the budget comments aren't as bad as we're making it out to be. They are admittedly rather vague, and we don't know everything behind the scenes, which can be a good or bad thing for Geno. We just don't know.

Maybe I'm just feeling complacent and chill about it all because I have bigger fish to fry (hi, Hurricane Dorian, not excited to see you come Sunday/Monday ), but I can't say I'm worried just yet. Vergeben also came out recently on GF and stated flat-out that the female mecha stuff on 4chan is fake, so chances are, people either have an idea of or flat-out know who the next character is. Considering all we've got so far is the starling hint, while I'm not expecting it, I wouldn't be too surprised if the next DLC was Jill Valentine... and would be pleasantly surprised if it was Geno. While I'm veering towards Jill being the likely outcome, I'm not about to rule Geno out.

Let's balance out the negatives with some positives. Regardless of all the evidence prior to the fighters pass, we have the following rays of light to consider:

1) The fighters pass was dictated mostly by corporate, so regardless of Sakurai's potential biases, the DLC thus far seems to show much more focus on fan wish fulfillment.

2) Banjo-Kazooie got in! As we've said so many times before, this effectively negates 3rd party status as a barrier. In fact, 3rd parties seem to be the only definitive pattern in the DLC. Since Geno is technically 3rd party AND fan requested, he fits the criteria nicely.

3) The lack of a Mii Costume has more logical reasoning IN FAVOR of Geno than against him. Simply put, there would be literally ZERO logical reasons why not to include a pre-existing costume in a game that has both of SE's largest franchises represented unless there was something greater on the horizon. Best case, we get real Geno. Worst case, his costume would be revealed alongside another hype character from SE. Any other outcome would make no fiscal or, again, logical sense whatsoever.

4) Even if funds ARE low for the dev team, they obviously still have enough for at least two more characters. It's not like Nintendo's just gonna pull the plug on all that profit. And as others have stated, if the DLC is successful and Nintendo wants more, then more money they shall have. Simple as that.

There's still hope. Period. And I for one am not packing it in until we hit the end of the end. Geno forever!

 

[Deleted member]

"Please - my friends call me Richard.."

Or rather,

"Pardon me, Richard was my father's name."

Edit: I don't think I've ever seen an auto-censor do that particular edit before. Endlessly amused.

I had to change it or else we'd end up with **** Dastardly and I couldn't have it.

 

[UberMadman]

Oh boy, Piranha Plant talk again.

I think the problem that is currently persisting in this thread is that too many people see Sakurai choosing certain characters as his way of rejecting other characters, when I don’t think is the case at all. People are trying to argue that Piranha Plant was a “joke character” or that Sakurai thought that Piranha Plant was more important than Geno, and I really highly doubt that’s what Sakurai’s thought process was when making the character, given his comments in the past. That’s just people projecting their thoughts and opinions on the character onto Sakurai.

Personally, I think it’s obvious that Sakurai does everything he does in Smash from a place of love, not from spite or a sense of humor. Sakurai made a Piranha Plant a character because he wanted to, and because he thought it would be a fun idea. Piranha Plant is a love letter to Pirahna Plants throughout the series, from the main games to, (as this board knows very well), the RPG spinoffs. This wasn’t a character cobbled together shoddily just to be a meme pick; Sakurai took time to do research to make a character who is wholly and totally unique on the roster in terms of gameplay while also making a statement about how the “unimportant” characters in video games deserve appreciation too.

TL;DR: I don’t think talking about Piranha Plant in a Geno context is pertinent to much of anything because I don’t believe Sakurai makes characters based on a “priority” system, but rather based on concepts and ideas he finds fun.

 

[Firox]

Spoiler: Evil Trapezium Leak Post

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to post this. In case anyone wanted to see how the leak evolved from Dora the Explorer to Putt putt the car!

View attachment 236046

"What I mean by that is the character is actually mechanical." HOLY ****! GENO IS KINDA MECHANICAL! DOES THAT MEAN—?!

"My source says it is a purple car." .......oh.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Oh boy, Piranha Plant talk again.

I think the problem that is currently persisting in this thread is that too many people see Sakurai choosing certain characters as his way of rejecting other characters, when I don’t think is the case at all. People are trying to argue that Piranha Plant was a “joke character” or that Sakurai thought that Piranha Plant was more important than Geno, and I really highly doubt that’s what Sakurai’s thought process was when making the character, given his comments in the past. That’s just people projecting their thoughts and opinions on the character onto Sakurai.

Personally, I think it’s obvious that Sakurai does everything he does in Smash from a place of love, not from spite or a sense of humor. Sakurai made a Piranha Plant a character because he wanted to, and because he thought it would be a fun idea. Piranha Plant is a love letter to Pirahna Plants throughout the series, from the main games to, (as this board knows very well), the RPG spinoffs. This wasn’t a character cobbled together shoddily just to be a meme pick; Sakurai took time to do research to make a character who is wholly and totally unique on the roster in terms of gameplay while also making a statement about how the “unimportant” characters in video games deserve appreciation too.

TL;DR: I don’t think talking about Piranha Plant in a Geno context is pertinent to much of anything because I don’t believe Sakurai makes characters based on a “priority” system, but rather based on concepts and ideas he finds fun.

This is what I've been trying to say too...Piranha Plant and Sakurai are not the enemy...well ok Piranha Plant is literally an enemy but not in this context. I don't even think Nintendo or even Square Enix are the enemy. Literally we are our own worst enemy when it comes to Smash speculation by expecting anything and prioritizing our opinions and feelings over those of others who all have unique video game backgrounds that we cant entirely connect with especially those overseas. There is plenty to praise about this game without getting bent out of shape about what's not there. There is literally no way to truly make this game feel "ultimate" for all people, but I really see how hard they're trying and I appreciate that.

 

[ZelDan]

"What I mean by that is the character is actually mechanical." HOLY ****! GENO IS KINDA MECHANICAL! DOES THAT MEAN—?!

"My source says it is a purple car." .......oh.

Maybe Nintendo will announce Super Mario RPG 2 during the next direct and he'll end up possessing a purple car instead of a doll.

****ing calling it right now.

 

[Taco Cruise]

This is what I've been trying to say too...Piranha Plant and Sakurai are not the enemy...well ok Piranha Plant is literally an enemy but not in this context. I don't even think Nintendo or even Square Enix are the enemy. Literally we are our own worst enemy when it comes to Smash speculation by expecting anything and prioritizing our opinions and feelings over those of others who all have unique video game backgrounds that we cant entirely connect with especially those overseas. There is plenty to praise about this game without getting bent out of shape about what's not there. There is literally no way to truly make this game feel "ultimate" for all people, but I really see how hard they're trying and I appreciate that.

This may be the single best post I've ever seen about speculation and smash ultimate in general, kudos to you. I echo this sentiment 100%

 

[Deleted member]

Oh boy, Piranha Plant talk again.

I think the problem that is currently persisting in this thread is that too many people see Sakurai choosing certain characters as his way of rejecting other characters

no I'm pretty sure it's Nintendo policy to reject Waluigi whenever possible. This is acceptable though because at this point it's a law of nature. Breaking it will bring only ruin.

 

[Icewolff92]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot to post this. In case anyone wanted to see how the leak evolved from Dora the Explorer to Putt putt the car!

View attachment 236046

This is just hillarious. I give the "leaker" this. At least he tries then others xD
Warios limo for Smash Bros

 

[UberMadman]

no I'm pretty sure it's Nintendo policy to reject Waluigi whenever possible. This is acceptable though because at this point it's a law of nature. Breaking it will bring only ruin.

The day that Waluigi gets into Smash will usher in the day of the WAHpture. Sinners must repent and accept their purple savior or will be thrust into a hell of a never-ending Mario Party game where any minimal good luck they may have will always be stolen away from them due to Chance Time or Bowser.

 

[Deleted member]

The day that Waluigi gets into Smash will usher in the day of the WAHpture. Sinners must repent and accept their purple savior or will be thrust into a hell of a never ending Mario Party game where any minimal good luck they may have will always be stolen away from them due to Chance Time or Bowser.

... is Geno in this unwinnable Mario Party?

 

[Firox]

... is Geno in this unwinnable Mario Party?

Not sure about Geno, but I'm pretty sure Isaac is.

 

[Deleted member]

Not sure about Geno, but I'm pretty sure Isaac is.

you know what, if Link can be in Mario Kart, Isaac can be in Mario Party.

I'll take this hell.

 

[Firox]

you know what, if Link can be in Mario Kart, Isaac can be in Mario Party.

I'll take this hell.

Ya know, when you put it that way, it doesn't actually sound so bad. I guess there could be much worse hells out there. I mean, it's not like playing Smash Tour for all eternity.

 

[Deleted member]

Ya know, when you put it that way, it doesn't actually sound so bad. I guess there could be much worse hells out there. I mean, it's not like playing Smash Tour for all eternity.

... Does the Smash Tour have Geno?

 

[Vector Victor]

Here's some optimism to inject into the thread:

Geno will be the 74th playable character in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate.

 

[wynn728]

Let's balance out the negatives with some positives. Regardless of all the evidence prior to the fighters pass, we have the following rays of light to consider:

1) The fighters pass was dictated mostly by corporate, so regardless of Sakurai's potential biases, the DLC thus far seems to show much more focus on fan wish fulfillment.

2) Banjo-Kazooie got in! As we've said so many times before, this effectively negates 3rd party status as a barrier. In fact, 3rd parties seem to be the only definitive pattern in the DLC. Since Geno is technically 3rd party AND fan requested, he fits the criteria nicely.

3) The lack of a Mii Costume has more logical reasoning IN FAVOR of Geno than against him. Simply put, there would be literally ZERO logical reasons why not to include a pre-existing costume in a game that has both of SE's largest franchises represented unless there was something greater on the horizon. Best case, we get real Geno. Worst case, his costume would be revealed alongside another hype character from SE. Any other outcome would make no fiscal or, again, logical sense whatsoever.

4) Even if funds ARE low for the dev team, they obviously still have enough for at least two more characters. It's not like Nintendo's just gonna pull the plug on all that profit. And as others have stated, if the DLC is successful and Nintendo wants more, then more money they shall have. Simple as that.

There's still hope. Period. And I for one am not packing it in until we hit the end of the end. Geno forever!

Okay, there's stuff that needs to be clarified with each point you made.

1) Nintendo came up with the list of potential DLC characters and Sakurai got to pick from the list. Sakurai even said he had the final call of who gets in as DLC. So Sakurai's bias plays a big factor.

2) I don't see how Banjo doesn't play that much or a factor in Geno's potential. We already saw Geno as a Mii Costume and a Spirit, so we know there was already potential that they're not acting on. His inclusion doesn't mean the DLC will all be fan requested characters, remember we got Joker because Sakurai really love Persona 5 and personality wanted him (he's a welcome inclusion, but he's not requested since he felt like a character that would never be included).

3. Geno missing Mii Costume doesn't really mean anything because of the missing Virtua Fighter Mii Costume. People keep forgetting that Virtua Fighter is a SEGA franchise that's also got an Assist Trophy and Spirit with Akira. So where's their Mii Costume? They didn't show up with Joker and they're definitely not getting a rep as DLC. While a missing Mii Costume looks in favor for Geno we can't forget about the other two SEGA costumes that are gone.

4. Funds don't really play a part with Geno's chances. Clearly they ran out of budget because they had to buy the right to use the third party characters and pay the developers to make all this stuff. I believe Dragon Quest and the Hero's four different model probably took a lot out of the budget. Maybe we'll get more DLC and maybe we won't, either way they already paid for the last two characters and all that's left is to pay the developers to make them.

Now I would love for Geno to get, but not everything that happen is in Geno's favor. Remember how it felt like Shadow was going to be an Echo Fighter with Knuckles taking his role and Richter getting in? We got to accept that Sakurai doesn't care that he leads people on with the way he reveals things. He's tone deaf when it comes to that part.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

wynn728 , I agree with most of that but I will throw an opinion on #3. As you said, they already have a Virtua Fighter assist trophy and Sega costumes. That is a different ball field from the Geno one, but admittedly, not by much. We have no Square assist trophies OR costumes at all. Sega already has a ton of assists, fighters, spirits, etc. The Square side of Square-Enix is devoid of content while the Enix side just got something for the first time.

Let's compare:
Sega (if you include Persona and Bayonetta):
3 fighters
4 assists
8 or more costumes
4 stages
A ton of spirits I'm not going to count
Tons of music I'm not going to count either.

vs

Square half of SE:
1 fighter
0 assists
0 costumes
1 stage
4 spirits
2 songs

Enix half of SE:
1 fighter
0 assists
4 costumes
1 stage
10 spirits
8 songs

Don't you think it's a little unfair to compare Sega, who has way more content regardless of whether the Virtua Fighter costumes came back or not, to the Square half of SE?

That's the only reason I say that the Virtua Fighter costume argument doesn't hold much validity.

 

[wynn728]

This is what I've been trying to say too...Piranha Plant and Sakurai are not the enemy...well ok Piranha Plant is literally an enemy but not in this context. I don't even think Nintendo or even Square Enix are the enemy. Literally we are our own worst enemy when it comes to Smash speculation by expecting anything and prioritizing our opinions and feelings over those of others who all have unique video game backgrounds that we cant entirely connect with especially those overseas. There is plenty to praise about this game without getting bent out of shape about what's not there. There is literally no way to truly make this game feel "ultimate" for all people, but I really see how hard they're trying and I appreciate that.

Here's the thing, they asked us what characters we wanted to see in Smash Bros with that ballot. We told them we wanted characters like Geno, we made our voices loud and clear. Now it's up to Sakurai whether he answers the request or ignore it. You can't include every character, but at the very least they should fill all available spots with characters people have been begging for. Nobody is asking why did Isabelle or K Rool got in over Geno or Isaac, when it's filled with characters people have been wanting it easy to accept a character not making it in.

You can't make everyone happy but you might as well try, and Piranha Plant inclusion was just giving up on trying to make people happy.

 

[Deleted member]

Things have gotten so dour in the past couple of days in this thread, and while I understand why, let's keep our hope as strong as we can make it. I loathe the idea of the worst case scenario (Geno only having his spirit, therefore being downgraded from his Smash 4 content), but while there are things against us, there are little things that continue to make me curious. There's only so much that we know at this point, which is a double-edged sword. We're still in the dark, and we don't know. For all we know, the budget comments aren't as bad as we're making it out to be. They are admittedly rather vague, and we don't know everything behind the scenes, which can be a good or bad thing for Geno. We just don't know.

Maybe I'm just feeling complacent and chill about it all because I have bigger fish to fry (hi, Hurricane Dorian, not excited to see you come Sunday/Monday ), but I can't say I'm worried just yet. Vergeben also came out recently on GF and stated flat-out that the female mecha stuff on 4chan is fake, so chances are, people either have an idea of or flat-out know who the next character is. Considering all we've got so far is the starling hint, while I'm not expecting it, I wouldn't be too surprised if the next DLC was Jill Valentine... and would be pleasantly surprised if it was Geno. While I'm veering towards Jill being the likely outcome, I'm not about to rule Geno out.

Yeah we should keep our heads held high. Expect the worst and hope for the best cause we have some stuff pointing our direction even more so than base game.

Sure, We don't know anything and the last two characters could practically be anyone but I say Geno is the character that has the most stuff going for him as opposed to Jill, Phoenix, Doom Guy, Etc. Sure those four make more sense than Geno but Geno has more stuff going for him. It depends on your viewpoint but we should still keep our heads held high and hope for the best.

Also stay safe Ovaltine! I really hope you're gonna be alright you're a great person and my friend. Stay safe.

 

[Captain Fun]

wynn728 , I agree with most of that but I will throw an opinion on #3. As you said, they already have a Virtua Fighter assist trophy and Sega costumes. That is a different ball field from the Geno one, but admittedly, not by much. We have no Square assist trophies OR costumes at all. Sega already has a ton of assists, fighters, spirits, etc. The Square side of Square-Enix is devoid of content while the Enix side just got something for the first time.

Let's compare:
Sega (if you include Persona and Bayonetta):
3 fighters
4 assists
8 or more costumes
4 stages
A ton of spirits I'm not going to count
Tons of music I'm not going to count either.

vs

Square half of SE:
1 fighter
0 assists
0 costumes
1 stage
4 spirits
2 songs

Enix half of SE:
1 fighter
0 assists
4 costumes
1 stage
10 spirits
8 songs

Don't you think it's a little unfair to compare Sega, who has way more content regardless of whether the Virtua Fighter costumes came back or not, to the Square half of SE?

That's the only reason I say that the Virtua Fighter costume argument doesn't hold much validity.

I don’t think the distinction between “halves” of SE is important at all, and neither is parity between third parties.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

I don’t think the distinction between “halves” of SE is important at all, and neither is parity between third parties.

That's a fair point. I'm just saying that comparing the Virtua Fighter costumes to the Geno one doesn't make any sense, at least to me. I don't imagine people screamed in excitement at the sight of them like the Geno one. Then again, I was kind of dead during the Mii Costumes updates Smash 4 so... shrug

 

[wynn728]

wynn728 , I agree with most of that but I will throw an opinion on #3. As you said, they already have a Virtua Fighter assist trophy and Sega costumes. That is a different ball field from the Geno one, but admittedly, not by much. We have no Square assist trophies OR costumes at all. Sega already has a ton of assists, fighters, spirits, etc. The Square side of Square-Enix is devoid of content while the Enix side just got something for the first time.

Let's compare:
Sega (if you include Persona and Bayonetta):
3 fighters
4 assists
8 or more costumes
4 stages
A ton of spirits I'm not going to count
Tons of music I'm not going to count either.

vs

Square half of SE:
1 fighter
0 assists
0 costumes
1 stage
4 spirits
2 songs

Enix half of SE:
1 fighter
0 assists
4 costumes
1 stage
10 spirits
8 songs

Don't you think it's a little unfair to compare Sega, who has way more content regardless of whether the Virtua Fighter costumes came back or not, to the Square half of SE?

That's the only reason I say that the Virtua Fighter costume argument doesn't hold much validity.

Regardless they're still missing. People were going on Geno costume being missing from Hero video is in favor of his inclusion, but if not all of SEGA Mii Costume didn't come back than that could mean either certain Mii Costume will never come back or they'll get release at a later date. They try to include all the other DLC Mii Costumes, so why not these two?

Sakurai did go on about how great it was that they were able to get Ryu and Mii Costume of Heihachi & Akira to be included in Smash Bros 4, so why abandon that? Sakurai has a weird obsession with Mii Costume since he thinks they're great way to include characters, so this absence is weird. If not all the SEGA Costumes can be included with Joker then not having the Geno costume in with Hero should mean nothing.

Maybe Geno is in, maybe his costume coming later along with the others, or maybe all we get is a png file. I think we're all putting too much faith in this absence. Also let's not forget how stingy Square Enix can be, so there's a good chance that all we'll get is Hero.

 

[bardbowman]

Purple car? Check.

Animal companion? Check.

Bowser Car is finally in, boys. We did it.

 

[Firox]

Some clarifications of your clarifications:

1) Nintendo came up with the list of potential DLC characters and Sakurai got to pick from the list. Sakurai even said he had the final call of who gets in as DLC. So Sakurai's bias plays a big factor.

This concept of Nintendo's list and Sakurai choosing from it has a high likelihood of being true, however, this has never been explicitly stated or proven by any official sources, so I wanted to point that out. Also, yes, I agree, for better or worse we will still have to deal with some degree of Sakurai's biases, but we also don't know how big this alleged list was or who else was on it. If every character on that list was hype as hell, then no matter who he picks, a large percentage of players will be pleased. I'm not a huge fan of Hero, but I think with the whole world considered, the DLC so far inspires more confidence than not.

2) I don't see how Banjo doesn't play that much or a factor in Geno's potential. We already saw Geno as a Mii Costume and a Spirit, so we know there was already potential that they're not acting on. His inclusion doesn't mean the DLC will all be fan requested characters, remember we got Joker because Sakurai really love Persona 5 and personality wanted him (he's a welcome inclusion, but he's not requested since he felt like a character that would never be included).

While I agree that Joker was 100% Sakurai, you also have to realize that fan demand/speculation is very much a function of probability. The more probable a character seems, the more speculation/demand surges in their favor. Heck, the entire "Google Theory" was founded on that concept. That said, almost NO ONE thought Cloud would ever get into Smash. PERIOD. It was so unfathomable that people hardly even bothered to vote for him in the ballot. Then Sakurai took it upon himself to give us what we didn't even ask for and BAM! Instant legend. I personally feel like Joker was very much the same kind of case. Definitely not on the scale of Cloud, but Joker is an example of where Sakurai's interests and the fans' intersect. Now with respect to B-K, you don't get much more fan service than that. The fact that he snapped them up shows he's not completely deaf to the fans. He knows what we like. It's merely a question of whether he, Nintendo and us align.

3. Geno missing Mii Costume doesn't really mean anything because of the missing Virtua Fighter Mii Costume. People keep forgetting that Virtua Fighter is a SEGA franchise that's also got an Assist Trophy and Spirit with Akira. So where's their Mii Costume? They didn't show up with Joker and they're definitely not getting a rep as DLC. While a missing Mii Costume looks in favor for Geno we can't forget about the other two SEGA costumes that are gone.

This is a valid point, but I also think we're talking apples and oranges when you compare Virtua Fighter to Geno. Firstly, who even bought the Virtua Fighter costume that didn't just buy ALL the costumes? I could be totally off base here, but I honestly don't know a single person that absolutely GUSHED over the virtua fighter costume. Sak didn't dedicate a splash screen to it. I don't recall Virtua fighter even in the top 50 of any ballot. Geno, on the other hand, had and still does have a way larger following than VF. I'd say that Sm4sh was the closest example of Geno teetering on official character status. For all we know, the sales of the VF costume could have been so dismal that Nintendo didn't bother to renew the license or something. My point is, the loss of the VF costume would be no where near the loss of Geno's in terms of backlash.

4. Funds don't really play a part with Geno's chances. Clearly they ran out of budget because they had to buy the right to use the third party characters and pay the developers to make all this stuff. I believe Dragon Quest and the Hero's four different model probably took a lot out of the budget. Maybe we'll get more DLC and maybe we won't, either way they already paid for the last two characters and all that's left is to pay the developers to make them.

Except that they most certainly do. For two reasons, in fact. Firstly, it could have been GENO that sucked up all the funds for all we know. It could have been a combo of ALL the DLC characters. We don't know what goes where, but you can bet that more money=more stuff. That's a pretty simple equation. Secondly, if Geno doesn't get in with this fighter pass, then additional DLC will be his ONLY way into Ultimate. In that case, Nintendo is going to have to pony up more dough. The good news is that there is a good chance that more DLC will pay for itself, incentivizing Nintendo to continue making it. Granted, they could just as easy choose not to continue, but money is and always will be one of the world's best motivations.