Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[MattX20]

On one hand, I'm glad the Square rep slog of 6 months is over, but at the same time I wish I had a clue on what to properly speculate on next

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The fact that Geno has been made into a spirit and mii costume tells me that both Sakurai and Nintendo recognize not only Geno as a notable character, but also the size of his following. That said, I'm still firmly of the belief that if Geno doesn't get in, it's purely the fault of Sakurai and his inexplicable unwillingness to put him in despite whatever he's said in the past. My reasoning? Firstly, in light of Cloud and Hero, SE has absolutely NO REASON to deny Geno at this point, especially since they would have so much to profit for simply offering up a character they would never intend to use otherwise. Now, some could argue that the Nintendo execs, who were allegedly the ones behind the Fighter Pass selection (which I question due to Atlus' claims that Joker was almost exclusively the work of Sakurai), might op out of having Geno. Given how fan service the FP has been thus far, I don't see any evidence to support this claim. In that case, the only other deciding factor would be Papa Sakurai himself. He may have said during the Brawl era that he would've liked to have Geno in, but let me remind you that 39 characters have been added to the game since then, and of those, we have several echoes, a non-character from a dying peripheral, another pair of non-characters from an ancient NES peripheral, and a potted plant that each took higher priority than Geno. Banjo, among many others, has proven that if Sakurai wants them, he gets them. Thus, if we don't get them, it can only be because HE, for whatever unfathomable reason, doesn't want them. Let's hope that his desires really do align with ours.

(And for clarification, when I said "non-character", I meant an entity that no one had previously considered a character in the same way as Mario, Link, etc. until Sakurai deemed it so.)

I wouldn't be so quick to blame Sakurai for Geno not being in the game. We don't know a lot of details behind the scenes, and there could be any number of road blocks in making Geno playable that are not so obvious to us. Maybe Square Enix specifically has an issue with Geno becoming a fighter when they have bigger IPs. Maybe Nintendo has an issue with picking a character they perceive as too niche. Maybe Miyamoto's dislike of unique characters in Mario RPGs also means that he pushes against their inclusion in Smash because he doesn't want Mario lore like that so proudly displayed in Smash. Maybe Square Enix asks too much money for Geno specifically for Sakurai to be willing to invest in them. Or maybe he does genuinely just have an issue with Geno in Smash for unknown reasons. There's lot of specifics that could potentially get in the way of Geno getting into Smash that Sakurai may or may not have any control over. And to be fair, we've only had 17 character since Cloud debuted and Square Enix was actually on board for Smash. One of which being Hero, which is the actually important number for us rather than the 39 since Brawl number (really 41 with E3 announcements).

It really could just be the specific set of circumstances didn't work out in Geno's favor. Square Enix had their priorities, Sakurai had his own, and Nintendo had others. And Geno maybe just didn't make a high enough priority on any of those lists to be playable. It's possible he misses the mark just due to bad timing and certain decisions. Nothing big or particular, just the perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances. There doesn't have to be a singular reason for any of it. Also, I would say that Sora is potentially always going to be another potential barrier, but that entirely depends on his licensing situation.

It really is true that there really aren't any obstacles for Geno anymore. Sakurai pretty much broke his own rules about importance (Pirhana Plant), relevance (Banjo), history with Nintendo (Joker) and even international appeal (Hero) with the DLC alone so it ultimately comes down to whether Sakurai tried this time because, given how much Hero's getting, I have a hard time seeing Square being the issue this time around.

I feel like all of those rules have already been broken though. Importance went out the window with Ice Climbers, same with relevance honestly. History with Nintendo technically hasn't been broken because Joker actually did appear on Nintendo systems twice prior to his announcement. Once as a costume in Sonic Forces and Persona Q2 released in Japan prior to his trailer. But honestly, he didn't really do anything Cloud didn't do before him. International appeal also doesn't apply to Dragon Quest as much as people think because his comments were in line with Takumaru and Lucas, neither of which had their home game released period in the States versus DQ just being a more niche series that had decent success abroad.

I don't know if anyone mentioned this before, but Nintendo had supposedly given a list (or something like that) of characters to Sakurai to pick from for DLC, right? If Banjo-Kazooie was on that list, then they obviously have been listening to fan demand, so who's to say Geno wasn't on the list?

Or they sent a list that had fan demands on it and told Sakurai to pick one for the pass, and Banjo Kazooie is that one. We just know absolutely nothing about the context of the DLC selection other than Nintendo had a hand in things and Sakurai approved those things for Smash. It doesn't have to be a singular list that Sakurai chooses names off of, it could very easily be categories of character that Sakurai then make decisions around. Or maybe Nintendo just downright came up with five and Sakurai approved them all.

It's the most intriguing part of DLC speculation, but it's also the absolutely most unknown area when it comes to things is how big of a hand did Sakurai have in the selection process and what was it like.

 

[Ovaltine]

I wouldn't be so quick to blame Sakurai for Geno not being in the game. We don't know a lot of details behind the scenes, and there could be any number of road blocks in making Geno playable that are not so obvious to us. Maybe Square Enix specifically has an issue with Geno becoming a fighter when they have bigger IPs. Maybe Nintendo has an issue with picking a character they perceive as too niche. Maybe Miyamoto's dislike of unique characters in Mario RPGs also means that he pushes against their inclusion in Smash because he doesn't want Mario lore like that so proudly displayed in Smash. Maybe Square Enix asks too much money for Geno specifically for Sakurai to be willing to invest in them. Or maybe he does genuinely just have an issue with Geno in Smash for unknown reasons. There's lot of specifics that could potentially get in the way of Geno getting into Smash that Sakurai may or may not have any control over. And to be fair, we've only had 17 character since Cloud debuted and Square Enix was actually on board for Smash. One of which being Hero, which is the actually important number for us rather than the 39 since Brawl number (really 41 with E3 announcements).

It really could just be the specific set of circumstances didn't work out in Geno's favor. Square Enix had their priorities, Sakurai had his own, and Nintendo had others. And Geno maybe just didn't make a high enough priority on any of those lists to be playable. It's possible he misses the mark just due to bad timing and certain decisions. Nothing big or particular, just the perfect storm of unfortunate circumstances. There doesn't have to be a singular reason for any of it. Also, I would say that Sora is potentially always going to be another potential barrier, but that entirely depends on his licensing situation.

Honestly, there's so much that goes into each fighter and a lot that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to dev time, resources, money, copyright, and so on and so forth. There could be multiple factors blocking Geno from entry this time around that's not the fault of one single entity. People underestimate how much goes into game development, especially when you have this many people involved. It's part of why I'm so floored that Banjo and Kazooie are not only in, but also were apparently 'easy' to get in. It's incredible.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Honestly, there's so much that goes into each fighter and a lot that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to dev time, resources, money, copyright, and so on and so forth. There could be multiple factors blocking Geno from entry this time around that's not the fault of one single entity. People underestimate how much goes into game development, especially when you have this many people involved. It's part of why I'm so floored that Banjo and Kazooie are not only in, but also were apparently 'easy' to get in. It's incredible.

Microsoft: "Yes you can have him"

*Nintendo just now walking through the door*

Nintendo: "Wait what But... we haven't asked for anyone yet"

Microsoft "We know who you came for. Do what you want with him. Where do we sign?"

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Honestly, there's so much that goes into each fighter and a lot that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to dev time, resources, money, copyright, and so on and so forth. There could be multiple factors blocking Geno from entry this time around that's not the fault of one single entity. People underestimate how much goes into game development, especially when you have this many people involved. It's part of why I'm so floored that Banjo and Kazooie are not only in, but also were apparently 'easy' to get in. It's incredible.

There are enough examples of characters getting in that we thought were extremely hard to get in, that I think that mindset is kind of BS now and honestly just a way to make ourselves feel better about a character not making it. There were so many discussions of all the legal hoops needed to jump through to get some of the people we've gotten but in the end it didn't matter. Sakurai seems to pretty much get what he wants at this point. Might not have always been that way, but it sure seems it now.

People are quick to blame Square for things and get little or no pushback for saying that, but then say "you can't blame either side" when any blame is even speculated to be on Sakurai. To be clear, I'm not personally blaming Sakurai if Geno isn't in. But everything we've seen from Square shows they're willing to play ball. Geno was a mii costume and they played SMRPG music in his short reveal, and he's a spirit and an online icon in Ultimate so far, with tons of other Square content being added to the game. I don't think a company is going to shut down a DLC character that has historically been even more requested than Banjo. That's declining free money.

 

[xpnc]

Dragon Quest has never had an orchestrated soundtrack in the West, but Nintendo and Sakurai pulled it off. There are so many bizarre legalities regarding the series that getting a fully-fleshed out quartet of four protagonists using the original artstyle, music, and locations would have been borderline impossible for anyone else. The era of Sakurai being turned down and having to compromise is 100% over.

The conversation Sakurai went through getting Cloud is all I need to know about how Square Enix is regarding their characters in Smash. He had his pick of the litter despite SE offering him someone newer or someone from an actual Nintendo game. Obtaining the rights to use Geno's likeness is something that he's done more than once now and the ball is entirely in his court to make him playable.

It's entirely possible that Nintendo handed Sakurai a list of characters that didn't have Geno on it. But the fact remains that Nintendo was gauging interest in SMRPG around the time Smash Ultimate was being designed, and they picked Banjo & Kazooie, decades long fan favourites, to be in the game.

 

[MattX20]

Honestly, there's so much that goes into each fighter and a lot that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to dev time, resources, money, copyright, and so on and so forth. There could be multiple factors blocking Geno from entry this time around that's not the fault of one single entity. People underestimate how much goes into game development, especially when you have this many people involved. It's part of why I'm so floored that Banjo and Kazooie are not only in, but also were apparently 'easy' to get in. It's incredible.

That, and it also depends on how willing certain companies and creators would be to collab with Sakurai and Nintendo. I recall reading somewhere that Professor Layton's creators at Level 5 apparently are both aware of his demand for the series and would try to make negotiations as easy as possible if they were approached.

 

[Wazygoose]

IF Geno (and i hope he is) is apart of the Fighter Pass would be the one to be announced last? or will be be the 4th one? Then again Nintendo isn't really great on ending with a bang reveal.

I think there is a decently sized chance that Geno is our last fighter. But I also think there's a decent chance the last two fighters may be somewhat underwhelming. Smash tends to front-loaded announcements that way.

Actually these are more good reason why they would announce Geno last. After the K Rool and Ridley reveals Sakurai said that they should not have front-loaded the reveals so much. I imagine the release schedule of the DLC fighters and in what order is strictly controlled, but characters like Banjo and Geno are probably more flexible than Hero.

 

[paper roxy]

I've heard that Sakurai doesn't really like doing season passes, and I think that'd make Geno pretty likely if we do like, individual fighter DLCs (and apparently the website has a seperate section for that implying there'll be more?)

sorry if this was brought up already i just got back from a vacation ghhg

 

[GoodGrief741]

After the K Rool and Ridley reveals Sakurai said that they should not have front-loaded the reveals so much

When did he say this?

 

[Fatmanonice]

On one hand, I'm glad the Square rep slog of 6 months is over, but at the same time I wish I had a clue on what to properly speculate on next

Honestly, I'm okay with this. Not even the most informed insiders were 100% right about Hero and E3 pretty much torpedoed every major rumor that has come out since December. I'm kind of okay with the blank slate right now and how even the most in-the-know insiders don't have a clue for the final two characters. I do have a theory though because y'all like it when I go into full blown overthinking mode and I'll talk about it later today when I get off work.

 

[Firox]

Honestly, there's so much that goes into each fighter and a lot that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to dev time, resources, money, copyright, and so on and so forth. There could be multiple factors blocking Geno from entry this time around that's not the fault of one single entity. People underestimate how much goes into game development, especially when you have this many people involved. It's part of why I'm so floored that Banjo and Kazooie are not only in, but also were apparently 'easy' to get in. It's incredible.

It certainly helps that Microsoft isn't so stingy with dated IPs. They were well aware of Rare's significance to Nintendo's history and likely knew, as I'm hoping SE agrees, that offering up a character they AREN'T EVEN USING for potential profit is a win-win no-brainer. We may not know exactly who is responsible for Geno's hangup, but I sure as hell hope it's not because some moron exec is pushing their own personal bias over the masses willing to pay for their long-awaited pick.

 

[ForsakenM]

Hey guys, I enjoy that we are still so alive! Seriously though, I think my post got very ignored, but you guys should check out and support people streaming SMRPG. Make it so that random joes streaming the game suddenly get an influx in views! Don't have to give them money or anything, just make sure they know that fans of the game exist. I think it's a good well to help with our plan to booty-blast Nintendo with support for Geno.

Also, I'm back at it again: FF7 Blind Playthrough in about 45 mins at 4PM CST. Feel free to stop by to hang out even for a little bit, any bit helps me reach for affiliate. https://www.twitch.tv/forsakenm is where I will be! Wednesday I got through Sector 6 and all the shenanigans with that and I just left the Sewers into the Train Graveyard. I plan on streaming Banjo-Kazooie on Sunday but I don't have a time yet. I figure it will be in the AM but what would work best for you guys, since it would be mostly you guys tuning in a feel (and by mostly you guys, I really mean Ovaltine because outside of her and our Mother 3 friends who have been absent, not many of you have shown up, which is completely fair. Shoutouts to MattX20 and ShotoStar 2 though!)

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Decided to replay Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. Got up to the point where I beat Croco for the first time. Been a few years since I last played the game, and it's still fun, however I think now that I'm older I can really appreciate how different it feels from other Mario games.

Not just in story and characters, but it feels a lot like a Final Fantasy game. Granted, Square made it so that's probably why, but I wish more Mario games nowadays had a distinct feel like that, like how the first few Paper Mario games really played around with worldbuilding or how Super Mario Sunshine saw Mario and friends go on vacation and get arrested. You don't really see things like that in the series anymore sadly. Thankfully, with things like Super Mario Odyssey and Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle coming out, we're getting there but we're still kind of jumping over the hurdle imo.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

There are enough examples of characters getting in that we thought were extremely hard to get in, that I think that mindset is kind of BS now and honestly just a way to make ourselves feel better about a character not making it. There were so many discussions of all the legal hoops needed to jump through to get some of the people we've gotten but in the end it didn't matter. Sakurai seems to pretty much get what he wants at this point. Might not have always been that way, but it sure seems it now.

People are quick to blame Square for things and get little or no pushback for saying that, but then say "you can't blame either side" when any blame is even speculated to be on Sakurai. To be clear, I'm not personally blaming Sakurai if Geno isn't in. But everything we've seen from Square shows they're willing to play ball. Geno was a mii costume and they played SMRPG music in his short reveal, and he's a spirit and an online icon in Ultimate so far, with tons of other Square content being added to the game. I don't think a company is going to shut down a DLC character that has historically been even more requested than Banjo. That's declining free money.

From the sound of things, getting all these IPs in Smash is a proverbial act of attempting to juggle while on a unicycle. At least, if we take Sakurai at his word of how difficult it was to organize Smash Ultimate and has general thoughts on working so consistently with third parties. Ultimate exists as it does because he managed to work his ass off and round up all the necessary components, but we're more than likely to see massive cuts in the third party arena in the future. We don't know how complicated certain legal hoops are. For years we assumed Microsoft was a no-go, then they just outright gave Banjo Kazooie and said it was easy to do so. Konami also came back after many assumed they were gone for good (and as their own developer, they are lol). But just because things have worked out in the moment for certain characters, does not mean that things are easier or any more attainable. To be honest, Geno has always been the testing ground for the limits of Sakurai's reach and influence. He's a particularly niche third party character with seemingly no future from a company that is more protective of its IPs than most. No other character has that specific qualification of absolutely embodying Sakurai with the freedom to do what he wants. He's the final frontier of Smash characters in essence.

Also, again, our evidence does show Square Enix willing to play ball with Geno in limited roles, but we have nothing conclusive on their willingness to allow him to be playable. Not a hint of either direction in the modern era of Smash. We also don't know what qualifies as tons of other Square content. It could legitimately just end up being Dragon Quest content that comes with Hero or even limited songs like Final Fantasy. It's a little too early to make those declarations until we see Challenger Pack #2 unveiled properly like Joker was in April.

And lol, from the moment Banjo Kazooie were a possibility, they absolutely dominated every fan poll I've saw. There's a near zero percent chance that Geno performed better than them. Sure, he had a near top status during the Brawl era, but he's kind of always hovered around top five/top ten even in our polling data. And Smash 4 was not a fruitful time at all for his support, though he did still receive some solid support.

Actually these are more good reason why they would announce Geno last. After the K Rool and Ridley reveals Sakurai said that they should not have front-loaded the reveals so much. I imagine the release schedule of the DLC fighters and in what order is strictly controlled, but characters like Banjo and Geno are probably more flexible than Hero.

To be fair, Sakurai was only referring to the fact he dropped five characters in the August Direct with that quote. And that was shortly after that Direct/September if I remember correctly. I think that's a very context dependent quote on the sheer numbers of characters and not the hype levels. And certainly never came off as a general change in philosophy for future reveals. That was his hype responsibly statement more than anything else.

I've heard that Sakurai doesn't really like doing season passes, and I think that'd make Geno pretty likely if we do like, individual fighter DLCs (and apparently the website has a seperate section for that implying there'll be more?)

sorry if this was brought up already i just got back from a vacation ghhg

The website doesn't actually have anything to imply there will be more Fighters right now. That was a glitch that a few people got directly after the site updated, but people weren't able to replicate it on much of any scale and the site now has exactly enough spots for the remaining two unannounced fighters.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

And lol, from the moment Banjo Kazooie were a possibility, they absolutely dominated every fan poll I've saw. There's a near zero percent chance that Geno performed better than them. Sure, he had a near top status during the Brawl era, but he's kind of always hovered around top five/top ten even in our polling data. And Smash 4 was not a fruitful time at all for his support, though he did still receive some solid support.

This is why i used the word “historically”. In the past 13 years, there have been maybe 10 months where Banjo was consistently polling higher than Geno, regardless the reason. You’re putting way too much stock into recent times and not looking at the big picture.

Sakurai has been peppered with more Geno requests than Banjo during his time working on the series, and I certainly don’t think he forgot about that because Banjo polled really well for almost a year.

No slight to Banjo, I love him and he deserves to be in. But Geno has a much more consistent legacy when talking about fan requests

 

[MattX20]

This is why i used the word “historically”. In the past 13 years, there have been maybe 10 months where Banjo was consistently polling higher than Geno, regardless the reason. You’re putting way too much stock into recent times and not looking at the big picture.

Sakurai has been peppered with more Geno requests than Banjo during his time working on the series, and I certainly don’t think he forgot about that because Banjo polled really well for almost a year.

No slight to Banjo, I love him and he deserves to be in. But Geno has a much more consistent legacy when talking about fan requests

Actually, Banjo historically did a lot better. It wasn't until Brawl Geno's support really grew when third parties were allowed for the first time. Back during the Melee days, Banjo and James Bond got quite a few votes during the small poll he held, but Sakurai later posted on that website they couldn't get either of them due to legal difficulties.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Hey guys, I enjoy that we are still so alive! Seriously though, I think my post got very ignored, but you guys should check out and support people streaming SMRPG. Make it so that random joes streaming the game suddenly get an influx in views! Don't have to give them money or anything, just make sure they know that fans of the game exist. I think it's a good well to help with our plan to booty-blast Nintendo with support for Geno.

Also, I'm back at it again: FF7 Blind Playthrough in about 45 mins at 4PM CST. Feel free to stop by to hang out even for a little bit, any bit helps me reach for affiliate. https://www.twitch.tv/forsakenm is where I will be! Wednesday I got through Sector 6 and all the shenanigans with that and I just left the Sewers into the Train Graveyard. I plan on streaming Banjo-Kazooie on Sunday but I don't have a time yet. I figure it will be in the AM but what would work best for you guys, since it would be mostly you guys tuning in a feel (and by mostly you guys, I really mean Ovaltine because outside of her and our Mother 3 friends who have been absent, not many of you have shown up, which is completely fair. Shoutouts to MattX20 and ShotoStar 2 though!)

I totally would if I wasn't at work currently

 

[EricTheGamerman]

This is why i used the word “historically”. In the past 13 years, there have been maybe 10 months where Banjo was consistently polling higher than Geno, regardless the reason. You’re putting way too much stock into recent times and not looking at the big picture.

Sakurai has been peppered with more Geno requests than Banjo during his time working on the series, and I certainly don’t think he forgot about that because Banjo polled really well for almost a year.

No slight to Banjo, I love him and he deserves to be in. But Geno has a much more consistent legacy when talking about fan requests

10 months? Try the past four years since Phil Spencer made his statement. Banjo Kazooie just usurped any one in their way for most highly requested newcomer. Spencer made his comment almost immediately after the ballot started too, so there's no way to discredit Banjo Kazooie on the basis of that either.

I am looking at the big picture, and that's everything in the post Smash 4 era. And honestly, Geno was not doing well during that era. Only when we saw his Mii fighter costume and heard from Sakurai did he actually start gaining proper traction again, which would have been after Banjo Kazooie was on the table. Geno didn't drop off as hard as Krystal for example... but there was a pretty substantial drop off in his popularity from Brawl to 4. A thing that hurts us a lot more than it helps us since he wouldn't have actually had that resurgence while the ballot was ongoing. I think that's one of the biggest marks against Geno and his chances for inclusion in Ultimate. His best moment to shine in polls was during his probably lowest point popularity wise in the past decade.

I hate that some try to claim Geno has "such a consistent legacy" when he's like a lot of other characters, he's had a lot of ups and downs in popularity (Most of the desire for him in Melee seems so horribly unsubstantiated and those numbers of things are absolutely tiny, so I don't consider him having popularity until the Brawl era). He was quite popular in the Brawl era, fell off during Smash 4, and came back during Ultimate, particularly with a huge boom after King K. Rool was confirmed and people thought he was happening next. His popularity has been parabolic in a sense. He's been popular and has done well with online polls throughout Smash history, but there is unarguably a massive drop during the Smash 4 era. Similarly, Banjo Kazooie also didn't have a consistent popularity. He was warming up in the Melee era, disappeared until Smash 4 DLC. Pretty much no character has a super consistent legacy of popularity like that.

But it's just also, when Banjo Kazooie became an option, he absolutely dominated everything. Like multiple polls have him at first and the margin between him and second isn't even close even in our fan polls. Geno has hovered for a while in the top five, top ten. He's never been the clear cut winner in any era like that.

 

[coolcat12347]

The thing I'm wondering now is... How do they top Banjo?

 

[MissingGlitch]

The thing I'm wondering now is... How do they top Banjo?

That depends on what thread you ask. Since this is the Geno thread. Geno. :V

 

[coolcat12347]

That depends on what thread you ask. Since this is the Geno thread. Geno. :V

Fair enough, that would top Banjo for me.
I am happy to see them make it in though, they were one of my ballot choices- Here's to getting Geno as well!

 

[Deleted member]

The thing I'm wondering now is... How do they top Banjo?

Simple answer, they won't.

Bayo and Corrin didn't sure topped Cloud, and Ken and Incineroar sure as HELL didn't came near close to K.Rool. Most last announcements always get to be the lesser ones in the eyes of the community.

Im not saying Geno is impossible due to this, obviously, but i just think that the last announcement will not be a bang.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Simple answer, they won't.

Bayo and Corrin didn't sure topped Cloud, and Ken and Incineroar sure as HELL didn't came near close to K.Rool. Most last announcements always get to be the lesser ones in the eyes of the community.

Im not saying Geno is impossible due to this, obviously, but i just think that the last announcement will not be a bang.

Bayonetta is a pretty damn hype pick though. She's not ****ing Cloud and Ryu just because their untouchable levels of big, but she's definitely an extremely solid B-list pick that really did have a legitimate fan base at the time and the games are universally praised. If anything, Bayonetta definitely should be inspiring that we'll get another notable name by the end of the Fighter's Pass. Though, then again, we've already got bigger and better with all three DLC characters so far... so that's also a nice pattern on our side as well that it won't just sputter out. I do expect we'll take a step down since Banjo Kazooie is actually not really a fan request that will be topped.

Also, my ideal end to the Fighter's Pass would probably be Geno and Crash Bandicoot. That'd be a lovely end to an amazing season of DLC and would satisfy a ton of people across the board (though we still do end up representing 3 JRPGs and 2 platformers). If we're operating with Geno as the "bonus character" of the season, then I would probably substitute Ryu Hayabusa in as I continue to find it super strange that Koei Tecmo doesn't have a rep and Ryu seems like such a great and obvious choice for another company closely related to Nintendo.

I'm expecting Ryu Hayabusa and Lloyd Irving in my own independent speculation though. I wouldn't be disappointed with Lloyd at all, but there are several I'd like to see before him. Either him or someone from Tekken, but I'm not sure if we'll see the same change with Tekken that we did with Ridley. Time will tell, but those are my predictions in this moment.

Doom Slayer seems like a bit too much of a long shot with his much more limited popularity in Japan, but I'd love to be wrong on him too.

 

[Wazygoose]

When did he say this?

EricTheGamerman was saying that it was the pace of reveals in terms of hype, which truth is what Sakurai said, but I'm imagining a world in which they learned to not blow all their hype at once: "We may have been a little trigger-happy so we’ll be living modestly from here on out."

Also, while I was looking for the quote I really liked this other one he said about how leakers ruin years of effort. I like speculation but this convinces me true leaks are a kind of betrayal: "I really wanted to avoid having the work of several years get smashed by someone who wanted his little moment to brag."

 

[Fatmanonice]

Spoiler: Huge post

Alright, so, on today's episode of Overthinking Everything, I'm going to fenagle a new theory for everyone's amusement that I will call "Continuation" theory to possibly predict the last two newcomers.

In Smash Ultimate, the trailers have been very heavily thematic in comparison to Smash 4. The Banjo trailer that we got recently is a prime example. DK, Diddy, and K. Rool were all previous RARE characters and, of course, so was Banjo. Duck Hunt was there because of the very obvious animal duo pairing. When it comes to the character choices in the trailers, it seems to be very deliberate and with purpose. Simon/Richter's had Luigi as Nintendo's go-to character with spooky games. K. Rool obviously had DK and Diddy but King Dedede, the only other major Nintendo character with King inherently in his name, was there too. Ken/Inceniroar's was "fighting" characters with Little Mac from the get-go and then all the characters in the game with boxing gloves (Villager, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr.) as comic relief. Hero had Link, Metaknight, and Marth in prominent roles because, well, swords while Isabelle and Joker's trailers basically focused on the individual characters themselves. This then leads to an interesting observation about the first full character trailer we got, Ridley's...

The main characters in Ridley's trailers are Mario, Megaman, and Samus. The connection between Samus and Ridley is obvious but what about Megaman and Mario? It doesn't help that Mario and Megaman are "killed off" very early in the trailer and the connection between Samus and Ridley is extremely highlighted. This is where the Continuation Theory comes in. We don't exactly know what happens to either of them. Megaman makes the classic death noise but he doesn't explode so he's probably seriously hurt but not necessarily dead. Same could easily be said about Mario. Chances are, they're simply somewhere else in the environment. Why is this significant? It's because we never really get a proper conclusion to Samus and Ridley's fight. Samus is about to dive kick Ridley in the face and then it just sort of fades out. This makes me believe that this story will continue but why? Because it's already happened once before.

The ending to K. Rool's trailer is very vague as well. A big clash of fists, a shock wave, and then we don't really see what happens after that aside from a goofy little skit at the end. At the start of Banjo's trailer, their story continues. I noticed that the endings of Simon/Richter's trailer and Ken/Inceniroar's trailer are kind of vague too. Luigi is about to go into his body when Carmilla appears and we don't see what happens next. Inceniroar gets a line of challengers, utters a sigh of annoyance, but we don't see the end result. There's a decent chance that the story of at least one of these trailers will continue, with my money being on the Ridley trailer being the most likely. Before I go into that, let's imagine the other two.

With Inceniroar's, the end result is that he probably effortlessly beat his three challengers and is looking for someone to give him a real challenge. Who could do this? Keeping with the theme, it would probably be a character from a fighting game. For example, thematically speaking, someone like Heihachi from Tekken would work really well here although that is just one possibility.

With Simon/Richter's, we have Luigi as a ghost/spirit and we're still in the spooky locale of Dracula's castle. This makes me believe that, if this story continues, they would try to have a character that fits this theme. Off the top of my head, two characters fit this theme pretty well: someone from Resident Evil (probably Leon or Jill) or someone from Yokai Watch like "Nate" with Yokai like Pokemon Trailer or someone stand alone like Jibanyan coming to save Luigi.

Now let's go back to Ridley. Like I asked earlier, what's the connection between Mario, Megaman, and Samus? I looked into Smash's past and looked at past presentations:

Bowser Jr's trailer is the only character trailer in Smash 4 where all three characters were together in the cinematic. It's kind of the same premise too, they're fighting a villain but this time they're fighting a Mario villain. Coincidentally, Mario and Megaman get hurt in this trailer too. Beyond that, there's one other time: the Final Smash 4 presentation.

At 15:37, you see "Geno" fighting Zero Suit Samus. At 15:40, you see Samus, "Geno" and Megaman together. At 17:00, you see "Geno" fighting on Ridley's stage, the location that most people agree is most similar to the one in Ridley's trailer. Tin foil hatty but there's a proven historical connection between these characters under this train of thought. Again, the characters for trailers seem to be very deliberate if the characters are given significant screen time. Based on this, these characters were probably put together for a reason but the full reason may not be obvious because we don't have the full story yet. Following this theory, the connection between the characters will be better established when the story continues and a lynch pin that connects these three characters is Geno. Still, this is kind of out there but I wanted to see what people thought of it.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

EricTheGamerman was saying that it was the pace of reveals in terms of hype, which truth is what Sakurai said, but I'm imagining a world in which they learned to not blow all their hype at once: "We may have been a little trigger-happy so we’ll be living modestly from here on out."

Also, while I was looking for the quote I really liked this other one he said about how leakers ruin years of effort. I like speculation but this convinces me true leaks are a kind of betrayal: "I really wanted to avoid having the work of several years get smashed by someone who wanted his little moment to brag."

I don't really get why he cares so much about leakers and their presence. There's a thousand "leaks" every week, and even if certain individuals have reputable records, people still don't believe them a great deal of the time. Even more importantly, Banjo-Kazooie in Smash on its own (as in someone just says they're in) doesn't mean as much as actually seeing how they play. I went in to this year's Direct prepared for Banjo Kazooie and it didn't change a thing about how excited I was when that damn Jiggy jumped across the screen. Incineroar was a concept I was fairly vocally against until I actually saw how he played.

Like the big reveals and reactions are nice, but I think there sometimes is a bit too much value assigned to them in the grand scheme of things. A reveal is very much a momentary celebration of existence, but that actual character or object's existence should just hold so much more value and weight.

I'm the same way with spoilers in any story too. It doesn't bother me. The knowledge of the action or event doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the story in the least bit. It's important to see the reality of a situation yourself, and it's arguably even more important for most people to value the character or object after the reveal.

I mean I get it on one hand. It's fun to be able to surprise people and have those reaction videos, but they're definitely more of an extra in the grand scheme of things and the process of Smash.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The thing I'm wondering now is... How do they top Banjo?

They don't. Maybe if they don't make it in like ten years a character like Waluigi, Geno, or Isaac will top Banjo out of sheer 'after all these years'-ness, but as far as Smash reveals go Banjo can only be tied, not surpassed.

I don't really get why he cares so much about leakers and their presence. There's a thousand "leaks" every week, and even if certain individuals have reputable records, people still don't believe them a great deal of the time. Even more importantly, Banjo-Kazooie in Smash on its own (as in someone just says they're in) doesn't mean as much as actually seeing how they play. I went in to this year's Direct prepared for Banjo Kazooie and it didn't change a thing about how excited I was when that damn Jiggy jumped across the screen. Incineroar was a concept I was fairly vocally against until I actually saw how he played.

Like the big reveals and reactions are nice, but I think there sometimes is a bit too much value assigned to them in the grand scheme of things. A reveal is very much a momentary celebration of existence, but that actual character or object's existence should just hold so much more value and weight.

I'm the same way with spoilers in any story too. It doesn't bother me. The knowledge of the action or event doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the story in the least bit. It's important to see the reality of a situation yourself, and it's arguably even more important for most people to value the character or object after the reveal.

I mean I get it on one hand. It's fun to be able to surprise people and have those reaction videos, but they're definitely more of an extra in the grand scheme of things and the process of Smash.

I think Sakurai's giving waaay too much value to the surprise element of Smash. Stuff like Greninja's Mewtwo fakeout, the entire existence of Piranha Plant and not having another Subspace Emissary because people spoiled it for themselves online are just... Dumb. Subverting expectations can be fresh and good, but it can also backfire hard when the decision made is not as good as the expectation.

Plus it creates an awful culture when a character is leaked, where people go 'I don't have anything against X but I hope they don't get in so I can be surprised'. Like, people are seriously starting to care more about being surprised by a trailer than about... What character gets into the game. That's insane to me.

 

[Ovaltine]

Alright, so, on today's episode of Overthinking Everything, I'm going to fenagle a new theory for everyone's amusement that I will call "Continuation" theory to possibly predict the last two newcomers.

In Smash Ultimate, the trailers have been very heavily thematic in comparison to Smash 4. The Banjo trailer that we got recently is a prime example. DK, Diddy, and K. Rool were all previous RARE characters and, of course, so was Banjo. Duck Hunt was there because of the very obvious animal duo pairing. When it comes to the character choices in the trailers, it seems to be very deliberate and with purpose. Simon/Richter's had Luigi as Nintendo's go-to character with spooky games. K. Rool obviously had DK and Diddy but King Dedede, the only other major Nintendo character with King inherently in his name, was there too. Ken/Inceniroar's was "fighting" characters with Little Mac from the get-go and then all the characters in the game with boxing gloves (Villager, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr.) as comic relief. Hero had Link, Metaknight, and Marth in prominent roles because, well, swords while Isabelle and Joker's trailers basically focused on the individual characters themselves. This then leads to an interesting observation about the first full character trailer we got, Ridley's...

The main characters in Ridley's trailers are Mario, Megaman, and Samus. The connection between Samus and Ridley is obvious but what about Megaman and Mario? It doesn't help that Mario and Megaman are "killed off" very early in the trailer and the connection between Samus and Ridley is extremely highlighted. This is where the Continuation Theory comes in. We don't exactly know what happens to either of them. Megaman makes the classic death noise but he doesn't explode so he's probably seriously hurt but not necessarily dead. Same could easily be said about Mario. Chances are, they're simply somewhere else in the environment. Why is this significant? It's because we never really get a proper conclusion to Samus and Ridley's fight. Samus is about to dive kick Ridley in the face and then it just sort of fades out. This makes me believe that this story will continue but why? Because it's already happened once before.

The ending to K. Rool's trailer is very vague as well. A big clash of fists, a shock wave, and then we don't really see what happens after that aside from a goofy little skit at the end. At the start of Banjo's trailer, their story continues. I noticed that the endings of Simon/Richter's trailer and Ken/Inceniroar's trailer are kind of vague too. Luigi is about to go into his body when Carmilla appears and we don't see what happens next. Inceniroar gets a line of challengers, utters a sigh of annoyance, but we don't see the end result. There's a decent chance that the story of at least one of these trailers will continue, with my money being on the Ridley trailer being the most likely. Before I go into that, let's imagine the other two.

With Inceniroar's, the end result is that he probably effortlessly beat his three challengers and is looking for someone to give him a real challenge. Who could do this? Keeping with the theme, it would probably be a character from a fighting game. For example, thematically speaking, someone like Heihachi from Tekken would work really well here although that is just one possibility.

With Simon/Richter's, we have Luigi as a ghost/spirit and we're still in the spooky locale of Dracula's castle. This makes me believe that, if this story continues, they would try to have a character that fits this theme. Off the top of my head, two characters fit this theme pretty well: someone from Resident Evil (probably Leon or Jill) or someone from Yokai Watch like "Nate" with Yokai like Pokemon Trailer or someone stand alone like Jibanyan coming to save Luigi.

Now let's go back to Ridley. Like I asked earlier, what's the connection between Mario, Megaman, and Samus? I looked into Smash's past and looked at past presentations:

Bowser Jr's trailer is the only character trailer in Smash 4 where all three characters were together in the cinematic. It's kind of the same premise too, they're fighting a villain but this time they're fighting a Mario villain. Coincidentally, Mario and Megaman get hurt in this trailer too. Beyond that, there's one other time: the Final Smash 4 presentation.

At 15:37, you see "Geno" fighting Zero Suit Samus. At 15:40, you see Samus, "Geno" and Megaman together. At 17:00, you see "Geno" fighting on Ridley's stage, the location that most people agree is most similar to the one in Ridley's trailer. Tin foil hatty but there's a proven historical connection between these characters under this train of thought. Again, the characters for trailers seem to be very deliberate if the characters are given significant screen time. Based on this, these characters were probably put together for a reason but the full reason may not be obvious because we don't have the full story yet. Following this theory, the connection between the characters will be better established when the story continues and a lynch pin that connects these three characters is Geno. Still, this is kind of out there but I wanted to see what people thought of it.

It's so ridiculously out there and sounds like a Sakurai thing to do, but I definitely wouldn't put my money on it. I'd LOVE if this happened, though. It'd be such a nice callback and a hefty nod to the fans. It just feels... right, more right than any other Geno reveal trailer I've ever heard. I'm in love with the idea.

Hopefully one day, we'll get to see his revival come to fruition.

 

[AugustusB]

Alright, so, on today's episode of Overthinking Everything, I'm going to fenagle a new theory for everyone's amusement that I will call "Continuation" theory to possibly predict the last two newcomers.

In Smash Ultimate, the trailers have been very heavily thematic in comparison to Smash 4. The Banjo trailer that we got recently is a prime example. DK, Diddy, and K. Rool were all previous RARE characters and, of course, so was Banjo. Duck Hunt was there because of the very obvious animal duo pairing. When it comes to the character choices in the trailers, it seems to be very deliberate and with purpose. Simon/Richter's had Luigi as Nintendo's go-to character with spooky games. K. Rool obviously had DK and Diddy but King Dedede, the only other major Nintendo character with King inherently in his name, was there too. Ken/Inceniroar's was "fighting" characters with Little Mac from the get-go and then all the characters in the game with boxing gloves (Villager, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr.) as comic relief. Hero had Link, Metaknight, and Marth in prominent roles because, well, swords while Isabelle and Joker's trailers basically focused on the individual characters themselves. This then leads to an interesting observation about the first full character trailer we got, Ridley's...

The main characters in Ridley's trailers are Mario, Megaman, and Samus. The connection between Samus and Ridley is obvious but what about Megaman and Mario? It doesn't help that Mario and Megaman are "killed off" very early in the trailer and the connection between Samus and Ridley is extremely highlighted. This is where the Continuation Theory comes in. We don't exactly know what happens to either of them. Megaman makes the classic death noise but he doesn't explode so he's probably seriously hurt but not necessarily dead. Same could easily be said about Mario. Chances are, they're simply somewhere else in the environment. Why is this significant? It's because we never really get a proper conclusion to Samus and Ridley's fight. Samus is about to dive kick Ridley in the face and then it just sort of fades out. This makes me believe that this story will continue but why? Because it's already happened once before.

The ending to K. Rool's trailer is very vague as well. A big clash of fists, a shock wave, and then we don't really see what happens after that aside from a goofy little skit at the end. At the start of Banjo's trailer, their story continues. I noticed that the endings of Simon/Richter's trailer and Ken/Inceniroar's trailer are kind of vague too. Luigi is about to go into his body when Carmilla appears and we don't see what happens next. Inceniroar gets a line of challengers, utters a sigh of annoyance, but we don't see the end result. There's a decent chance that the story of at least one of these trailers will continue, with my money being on the Ridley trailer being the most likely. Before I go into that, let's imagine the other two.

With Inceniroar's, the end result is that he probably effortlessly beat his three challengers and is looking for someone to give him a real challenge. Who could do this? Keeping with the theme, it would probably be a character from a fighting game. For example, thematically speaking, someone like Heihachi from Tekken would work really well here although that is just one possibility.

With Simon/Richter's, we have Luigi as a ghost/spirit and we're still in the spooky locale of Dracula's castle. This makes me believe that, if this story continues, they would try to have a character that fits this theme. Off the top of my head, two characters fit this theme pretty well: someone from Resident Evil (probably Leon or Jill) or someone from Yokai Watch like "Nate" with Yokai like Pokemon Trailer or someone stand alone like Jibanyan coming to save Luigi.

Now let's go back to Ridley. Like I asked earlier, what's the connection between Mario, Megaman, and Samus? I looked into Smash's past and looked at past presentations:

Bowser Jr's trailer is the only character trailer in Smash 4 where all three characters were together in the cinematic. It's kind of the same premise too, they're fighting a villain but this time they're fighting a Mario villain. Coincidentally, Mario and Megaman get hurt in this trailer too. Beyond that, there's one other time: the Final Smash 4 presentation.

At 15:37, you see "Geno" fighting Zero Suit Samus. At 15:40, you see Samus, "Geno" and Megaman together. At 17:00, you see "Geno" fighting on Ridley's stage, the location that most people agree is most similar to the one in Ridley's trailer. Tin foil hatty but there's a proven historical connection between these characters under this train of thought. Again, the characters for trailers seem to be very deliberate if the characters are given significant screen time. Based on this, these characters were probably put together for a reason but the full reason may not be obvious because we don't have the full story yet. Following this theory, the connection between the characters will be better established when the story continues and a lynch pin that connects these three characters is Geno. Still, this is kind of out there but I wanted to see what people thought of it.

That is very interesting. With how much fan service is in this game, it is possible Sakurai kept a lot of this in mind.

I don't know if you saw my dream but...

Gang...it happened. I finally had a dream about Geno and it was in the format of a reveal trailer. This may be long-ish, because something dawned on me after the fact.

The Trailer starts with Mario waking up at the bottom of a pit. The sound of battle is going on above. Next to him is Megaman unconscious. We then see Zamus come flying down with Ridley diving at her and knocking her out. (Continuation of the Ridley trailer). Mario, still without his hat, gets up and starts to fight. We get a shot of his hat on the floor and see a hand pick it up. Mario is on the ropes, when suddenly we see a beam shoot across at Ridley, sending him flying. Mario looks around...its not Megaman....its not Zamus...Instead we see a look of surprise and joy when Geno arrives and hands Mario his hat back.
Que fighter showcase and tag. Ends with a heartfelt reunion between Geno and Mario.

Now with this dream out of my head, it dawned on me that Mario has been suspiciously absent in MOST of the reveal trailers in Ultimate.
Compared to Sm4sh, he was in the bulk of them. With the announced trailer with Villager, Megaman, WiiFitTrainer, Charizard/Greninja, Bowser Jr, etc.
Yet in Smash Ultimate he was featured mostly in Ridley's....AND THAT IS IT. I am not counting Piranha Plant because it was not a CGI trailer.

I honestly dreamed that scenario of a continued trailer. Ridley's trailer ended with a cliffhanger that feels like it should be resolved. Donkey Kong's felt that way as well. And it continued with Banjo saving the day...?

I would say Incineroar's trailer is probably a good stopping point because it is more of a comical beat at the end. If it ended with him and Ken still fighting, then I could see that trailer continuing. I feel the same is with Simon/Richter's trailer is the same. A nice comedic beat to end on (Poor Luigi)

EDIT: I did not finish.

I don't think that is too much of a reach or overthinking. With Banjo's Reveal trailer, it opens the possibility of old trailers continuing/aesthetics being used again.

Also, did we ever hear from AlphaDream about their project? Is that still a thing?

 

[Wazygoose]

EricTheGamerman GoodGrief741 I completely respect yalls points of view but a lot of people, myself included, love to be surprised and hate spoilers. This isn’t a minority opinion, certain things I enjoy more if I don’t know ahead of time and it’s not the same as when I do.

That quote in particular he was referring to the “everyone is here” bit. He said worked really hard to get all the characters to come back and wanted it to be a surprise, so if someone he worked with spoiled it, that would be a massive betrayal. It seems to me like he personally really enjoys surprising and delighting players, and dislikes disappointing them, as much as is within his power.

 

[Ovaltine]

Also, did we ever hear from AlphaDream about their project? Is that still a thing?

We've heard nothing else yet since they started making job listings for it. It'll probably be a while yet before we get more info.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I was really hoping we'd see hide or hair of whatever AlphaDream's working on at E3. I just wanted to see the next Mario RPG, but... no dice.

I just want another good Mario RPG, man...

 

[AugustusB]

I was really hoping we'd see hide or hair of whatever AlphaDream's working on at E3. I just wanted to see the next Mario RPG, but... no dice.

I just want another good Mario RPG, man...

You and me both. Never played SMRPG until I joined speculation last year and I loved it. It would be something to see an announcement during Tokyo Game Show this year of a new MRPG game.

Also, time to change to SMRPG avatar!

 

[MissingGlitch]

Alright, so, on today's episode of Overthinking Everything, I'm going to fenagle a new theory for everyone's amusement that I will call "Continuation" theory to possibly predict the last two newcomers.

In Smash Ultimate, the trailers have been very heavily thematic in comparison to Smash 4. The Banjo trailer that we got recently is a prime example. DK, Diddy, and K. Rool were all previous RARE characters and, of course, so was Banjo. Duck Hunt was there because of the very obvious animal duo pairing. When it comes to the character choices in the trailers, it seems to be very deliberate and with purpose. Simon/Richter's had Luigi as Nintendo's go-to character with spooky games. K. Rool obviously had DK and Diddy but King Dedede, the only other major Nintendo character with King inherently in his name, was there too. Ken/Inceniroar's was "fighting" characters with Little Mac from the get-go and then all the characters in the game with boxing gloves (Villager, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr.) as comic relief. Hero had Link, Metaknight, and Marth in prominent roles because, well, swords while Isabelle and Joker's trailers basically focused on the individual characters themselves. This then leads to an interesting observation about the first full character trailer we got, Ridley's...

The main characters in Ridley's trailers are Mario, Megaman, and Samus. The connection between Samus and Ridley is obvious but what about Megaman and Mario? It doesn't help that Mario and Megaman are "killed off" very early in the trailer and the connection between Samus and Ridley is extremely highlighted. This is where the Continuation Theory comes in. We don't exactly know what happens to either of them. Megaman makes the classic death noise but he doesn't explode so he's probably seriously hurt but not necessarily dead. Same could easily be said about Mario. Chances are, they're simply somewhere else in the environment. Why is this significant? It's because we never really get a proper conclusion to Samus and Ridley's fight. Samus is about to dive kick Ridley in the face and then it just sort of fades out. This makes me believe that this story will continue but why? Because it's already happened once before.

The ending to K. Rool's trailer is very vague as well. A big clash of fists, a shock wave, and then we don't really see what happens after that aside from a goofy little skit at the end. At the start of Banjo's trailer, their story continues. I noticed that the endings of Simon/Richter's trailer and Ken/Inceniroar's trailer are kind of vague too. Luigi is about to go into his body when Carmilla appears and we don't see what happens next. Inceniroar gets a line of challengers, utters a sigh of annoyance, but we don't see the end result. There's a decent chance that the story of at least one of these trailers will continue, with my money being on the Ridley trailer being the most likely. Before I go into that, let's imagine the other two.

With Inceniroar's, the end result is that he probably effortlessly beat his three challengers and is looking for someone to give him a real challenge. Who could do this? Keeping with the theme, it would probably be a character from a fighting game. For example, thematically speaking, someone like Heihachi from Tekken would work really well here although that is just one possibility.

With Simon/Richter's, we have Luigi as a ghost/spirit and we're still in the spooky locale of Dracula's castle. This makes me believe that, if this story continues, they would try to have a character that fits this theme. Off the top of my head, two characters fit this theme pretty well: someone from Resident Evil (probably Leon or Jill) or someone from Yokai Watch like "Nate" with Yokai like Pokemon Trailer or someone stand alone like Jibanyan coming to save Luigi.

Now let's go back to Ridley. Like I asked earlier, what's the connection between Mario, Megaman, and Samus? I looked into Smash's past and looked at past presentations:

Bowser Jr's trailer is the only character trailer in Smash 4 where all three characters were together in the cinematic. It's kind of the same premise too, they're fighting a villain but this time they're fighting a Mario villain. Coincidentally, Mario and Megaman get hurt in this trailer too. Beyond that, there's one other time: the Final Smash 4 presentation.

At 15:37, you see "Geno" fighting Zero Suit Samus. At 15:40, you see Samus, "Geno" and Megaman together. At 17:00, you see "Geno" fighting on Ridley's stage, the location that most people agree is most similar to the one in Ridley's trailer. Tin foil hatty but there's a proven historical connection between these characters under this train of thought. Again, the characters for trailers seem to be very deliberate if the characters are given significant screen time. Based on this, these characters were probably put together for a reason but the full reason may not be obvious because we don't have the full story yet. Following this theory, the connection between the characters will be better established when the story continues and a lynch pin that connects these three characters is Geno. Still, this is kind of out there but I wanted to see what people thought of it.

You are insane. I like it.

 

[ShotoStar 2]

Alright, so, on today's episode of Overthinking Everything, I'm going to fenagle a new theory for everyone's amusement that I will call "Continuation" theory to possibly predict the last two newcomers.

In Smash Ultimate, the trailers have been very heavily thematic in comparison to Smash 4. The Banjo trailer that we got recently is a prime example. DK, Diddy, and K. Rool were all previous RARE characters and, of course, so was Banjo. Duck Hunt was there because of the very obvious animal duo pairing. When it comes to the character choices in the trailers, it seems to be very deliberate and with purpose. Simon/Richter's had Luigi as Nintendo's go-to character with spooky games. K. Rool obviously had DK and Diddy but King Dedede, the only other major Nintendo character with King inherently in his name, was there too. Ken/Inceniroar's was "fighting" characters with Little Mac from the get-go and then all the characters in the game with boxing gloves (Villager, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr.) as comic relief. Hero had Link, Metaknight, and Marth in prominent roles because, well, swords while Isabelle and Joker's trailers basically focused on the individual characters themselves. This then leads to an interesting observation about the first full character trailer we got, Ridley's...

The main characters in Ridley's trailers are Mario, Megaman, and Samus. The connection between Samus and Ridley is obvious but what about Megaman and Mario? It doesn't help that Mario and Megaman are "killed off" very early in the trailer and the connection between Samus and Ridley is extremely highlighted. This is where the Continuation Theory comes in. We don't exactly know what happens to either of them. Megaman makes the classic death noise but he doesn't explode so he's probably seriously hurt but not necessarily dead. Same could easily be said about Mario. Chances are, they're simply somewhere else in the environment. Why is this significant? It's because we never really get a proper conclusion to Samus and Ridley's fight. Samus is about to dive kick Ridley in the face and then it just sort of fades out. This makes me believe that this story will continue but why? Because it's already happened once before.

The ending to K. Rool's trailer is very vague as well. A big clash of fists, a shock wave, and then we don't really see what happens after that aside from a goofy little skit at the end. At the start of Banjo's trailer, their story continues. I noticed that the endings of Simon/Richter's trailer and Ken/Inceniroar's trailer are kind of vague too. Luigi is about to go into his body when Carmilla appears and we don't see what happens next. Inceniroar gets a line of challengers, utters a sigh of annoyance, but we don't see the end result. There's a decent chance that the story of at least one of these trailers will continue, with my money being on the Ridley trailer being the most likely. Before I go into that, let's imagine the other two.

With Inceniroar's, the end result is that he probably effortlessly beat his three challengers and is looking for someone to give him a real challenge. Who could do this? Keeping with the theme, it would probably be a character from a fighting game. For example, thematically speaking, someone like Heihachi from Tekken would work really well here although that is just one possibility.

With Simon/Richter's, we have Luigi as a ghost/spirit and we're still in the spooky locale of Dracula's castle. This makes me believe that, if this story continues, they would try to have a character that fits this theme. Off the top of my head, two characters fit this theme pretty well: someone from Resident Evil (probably Leon or Jill) or someone from Yokai Watch like "Nate" with Yokai like Pokemon Trailer or someone stand alone like Jibanyan coming to save Luigi.

Now let's go back to Ridley. Like I asked earlier, what's the connection between Mario, Megaman, and Samus? I looked into Smash's past and looked at past presentations:

Bowser Jr's trailer is the only character trailer in Smash 4 where all three characters were together in the cinematic. It's kind of the same premise too, they're fighting a villain but this time they're fighting a Mario villain. Coincidentally, Mario and Megaman get hurt in this trailer too. Beyond that, there's one other time: the Final Smash 4 presentation.

At 15:37, you see "Geno" fighting Zero Suit Samus. At 15:40, you see Samus, "Geno" and Megaman together. At 17:00, you see "Geno" fighting on Ridley's stage, the location that most people agree is most similar to the one in Ridley's trailer. Tin foil hatty but there's a proven historical connection between these characters under this train of thought. Again, the characters for trailers seem to be very deliberate if the characters are given significant screen time. Based on this, these characters were probably put together for a reason but the full reason may not be obvious because we don't have the full story yet. Following this theory, the connection between the characters will be better established when the story continues and a lynch pin that connects these three characters is Geno. Still, this is kind of out there but I wanted to see what people thought of it.

That... Totally sounds like a Sakurai thing to do he seems to love little details and jokes like that case and point the Absolutely Safe Capsule which may or may not count as a Porky Spirit and the continuation thing happened once I don't see why it couldn't happen again. Anything is possible.

 

[YsDisciple]

Alright, so, on today's episode of Overthinking Everything, I'm going to fenagle a new theory for everyone's amusement that I will call "Continuation" theory to possibly predict the last two newcomers.

In Smash Ultimate, the trailers have been very heavily thematic in comparison to Smash 4. The Banjo trailer that we got recently is a prime example. DK, Diddy, and K. Rool were all previous RARE characters and, of course, so was Banjo. Duck Hunt was there because of the very obvious animal duo pairing. When it comes to the character choices in the trailers, it seems to be very deliberate and with purpose. Simon/Richter's had Luigi as Nintendo's go-to character with spooky games. K. Rool obviously had DK and Diddy but King Dedede, the only other major Nintendo character with King inherently in his name, was there too. Ken/Inceniroar's was "fighting" characters with Little Mac from the get-go and then all the characters in the game with boxing gloves (Villager, K. Rool, and Bowser Jr.) as comic relief. Hero had Link, Metaknight, and Marth in prominent roles because, well, swords while Isabelle and Joker's trailers basically focused on the individual characters themselves. This then leads to an interesting observation about the first full character trailer we got, Ridley's...

The main characters in Ridley's trailers are Mario, Megaman, and Samus. The connection between Samus and Ridley is obvious but what about Megaman and Mario? It doesn't help that Mario and Megaman are "killed off" very early in the trailer and the connection between Samus and Ridley is extremely highlighted. This is where the Continuation Theory comes in. We don't exactly know what happens to either of them. Megaman makes the classic death noise but he doesn't explode so he's probably seriously hurt but not necessarily dead. Same could easily be said about Mario. Chances are, they're simply somewhere else in the environment. Why is this significant? It's because we never really get a proper conclusion to Samus and Ridley's fight. Samus is about to dive kick Ridley in the face and then it just sort of fades out. This makes me believe that this story will continue but why? Because it's already happened once before.

The ending to K. Rool's trailer is very vague as well. A big clash of fists, a shock wave, and then we don't really see what happens after that aside from a goofy little skit at the end. At the start of Banjo's trailer, their story continues. I noticed that the endings of Simon/Richter's trailer and Ken/Inceniroar's trailer are kind of vague too. Luigi is about to go into his body when Carmilla appears and we don't see what happens next. Inceniroar gets a line of challengers, utters a sigh of annoyance, but we don't see the end result. There's a decent chance that the story of at least one of these trailers will continue, with my money being on the Ridley trailer being the most likely. Before I go into that, let's imagine the other two.

With Inceniroar's, the end result is that he probably effortlessly beat his three challengers and is looking for someone to give him a real challenge. Who could do this? Keeping with the theme, it would probably be a character from a fighting game. For example, thematically speaking, someone like Heihachi from Tekken would work really well here although that is just one possibility.

With Simon/Richter's, we have Luigi as a ghost/spirit and we're still in the spooky locale of Dracula's castle. This makes me believe that, if this story continues, they would try to have a character that fits this theme. Off the top of my head, two characters fit this theme pretty well: someone from Resident Evil (probably Leon or Jill) or someone from Yokai Watch like "Nate" with Yokai like Pokemon Trailer or someone stand alone like Jibanyan coming to save Luigi.

Now let's go back to Ridley. Like I asked earlier, what's the connection between Mario, Megaman, and Samus? I looked into Smash's past and looked at past presentations:

Bowser Jr's trailer is the only character trailer in Smash 4 where all three characters were together in the cinematic. It's kind of the same premise too, they're fighting a villain but this time they're fighting a Mario villain. Coincidentally, Mario and Megaman get hurt in this trailer too. Beyond that, there's one other time: the Final Smash 4 presentation.

At 15:37, you see "Geno" fighting Zero Suit Samus. At 15:40, you see Samus, "Geno" and Megaman together. At 17:00, you see "Geno" fighting on Ridley's stage, the location that most people agree is most similar to the one in Ridley's trailer. Tin foil hatty but there's a proven historical connection between these characters under this train of thought. Again, the characters for trailers seem to be very deliberate if the characters are given significant screen time. Based on this, these characters were probably put together for a reason but the full reason may not be obvious because we don't have the full story yet. Following this theory, the connection between the characters will be better established when the story continues and a lynch pin that connects these three characters is Geno. Still, this is kind of out there but I wanted to see what people thought of it.

Following the train of thought of this "Continuation" theory, it's interesting that, the unfinished reveals so far (being those of Ridley, Simon/Richter, Ken/Incineroar, and lastly Hero), they leave the possibility of being concluded with the reveal of characters that have been highly speculated. In regards to Ridley's reveal continuation, I believe that the speculated character that would fit the space theme would be Doom Slayer. Certainly, a somewhat violence-nerfed version, but still true to most of his design. He could appear to help out a battle-weary Zero Suit Samus to fend off against a Ridley, who is now backed by Dark Samus, and Mother Brain (AT).

For the Simon/Richter continuation, I concur that the ideal speculated character in this scenario would be either Leon Kennedy, or Jill Valentine, as they search for Luigi who is still missing within the castle.

For the Ken/Incineroar trailer, the speculated character that most fits the fighting tournament scenario would indeed be the King of the Iron Fist himself; Heihachi Mishima from Tekken. Regardless of certain details that may point to Heihachi not being plausible, they could go for young Heihachi (like in the Project X Zone games). It'd be cool that Incineroar fought Heihachi first, and later Ken, and Little Mac joined in as well.

Now, in regards to the Hero reveal trailer, this one could be the "option B" to the Ken/Incineroar trailer due to the speculated character that could fit this scenario. In Hero's reveal we first saw Link, Marth, and Meta Knight; all swordsmen. Hero is a sort of hybrid between swordsman and caster, but what if as the Heroes and Link fend off against the possessed fighters, just when they thought they were succeeding, an azure knight wielding a terrifying greatsword appears. Imo, the ideal speculated character for this trailer's continuation would be none other than Nightmare. The fight would continue, only to seem to be turning in favor of the forces of darkness. As the Heroes and Link (now battle-weary) face the forces of darkness and Nightmare, light once again shines, as the true knight appears to defeat his evil apparition. Siegfried appears to fight one on one against Nightmare (Siegfried being a skin for Nightmare, or vice-versa). After the gameplay footage, the Heroes, Link, and Siegfried are shown standing together; all of them raising their swords to the sky as they shine with the early dawn's light.

 

[GoodGrief741]

EricTheGamerman GoodGrief741 I completely respect yalls points of view but a lot of people, myself included, love to be surprised and hate spoilers. This isn’t a minority opinion, certain things I enjoy more if I don’t know ahead of time and it’s not the same as when I do.

That quote in particular he was referring to the “everyone is here” bit. He said worked really hard to get all the characters to come back and wanted it to be a surprise, so if someone he worked with spoiled it, that would be a massive betrayal. It seems to me like he personally really enjoys surprising and delighting players, and dislikes disappointing them, as much as is within his power.

Oh don't get me wrong, I also despise spoilers and leaks and all that stuff. You're talking to the guy that didn't use the internet for a whole week before Endgame's release. I can totally get why something like Everyone is Here is something that he wanted to preserve - it's a huge, hypey reveal that can only be believed when seen. (Plus it's also great PR-wise, and hey, Smash is a product that has to be sold)

What I don't necessarily agree with is the idea that the surprise is the single most important element of something, 'cause it really isn't. It can work in favor (stuff like K. Rool's reveal) or against (M. Night Shyamalan's dark years).

 

[Pokemaster73]

It'll be interesting to see what datamines come out when Hero is added later this Summer. Hopefully Nintendo will have learned their lesson from the previous datamine leaks. If not, I'd lose my mind if we got a headline about a "fighter_kind_puppet" file being found.

 

[Vector Victor]

It'll be interesting to see what datamines come out when Hero is added later this Summer. Hopefully Nintendo will have learned their lesson from the previous datamine leaks. If not, I'd lose my mind if we got a headline about a "fighter_kind_puppet" file being found.

If there are any glitches or issues in any modes concerning Mii Gunner, all hell will break loose. The last 2 characters who had some glitches were Mii Sword and Duck Hunt. Then look who we got at E3.