Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Ovaltine]

Hey guys! I will be streaming Banjo-Kazooie tomorrow!

The question is, what time would work for you guys? I'm aiming for the AM, but you guys are the ones interested so I'd liek to see what times are best for you and then see what I can managed to do to fit around that.

If you stream it around noon or later (EST), I'll be able to show up, but if not, I'll just try to show up whenever I can!

 

[valkiriforce]

I don't really think there's enough to even call what people are saying a theory. Geno appears next to Samus and Mega Man because they both specifically have blaster arms in that trailer. Then, we have Ridley's trailer and of course you're going to have Samus play a major role in that trailer, so there's no points there. As far as I can tell, this "theory" entirely hinges on the presence of Mega Man as some clue in the Ridley trailer after a throwaway reference to the fact that these three characters all share projectile based weapons on one of their arms.

So, let's entertain the notion of all the pieces of this supposed "theory"

Spoiler: The Steps for This to Work

December 2015 - Sakurai unveils the Geno Mii costume and has him feature alongside Samus and Mega Man.

Early 2018 - Sakurai enters negotiations for Square Enix and walks away with the rights to Dragon Quest and Geno in Smash as two of his proposed five fighters for the Fighter's Pass. He instructs the animators of the Ridley reveal trailer that he has a grand plan and they need to follow his directions for the trailer very carefully.

June 2018 - Sakurai unveils Ridley as the final part of the E3 reveal of Ultimate. He has specifically chosen Mega Man, Samus, and Mario for this trailer in what will be over a year and a half long tease that Geno is coming to Smash. He chose Mega Man specifically because he remembered that he had Samus and Mega Man show up alongside that Mii costume two and a half years prior for a couple of seconds. Because they both showed up alongside the costume, they indicate Geno and Mario seals the deal because he's from Super Mario RPG. He ends the trailer with Zero Suit Samus attacking and leaves it supposedly open ended so that he can eventually do his Geno reveal.

December 2018 - Sakurai makes sure to include Geno and Mallow spirits in the game so nobody gets too suspicious of his master plan to have Geno be one of the final newcomers in Ultimate through DLC. An absent Geno would have revealed this master plan.

Late 2019/Early 2020 - Sakurai finally reveals Geno as the 4th or 5th fighter in a trailer in which he teams up with Zero Suit Samus to defeat Ridley and avenge his fallen Mega Man comrade from the two seconds of screen time they had together in one 2015 presentation and Mario. This has been a plan that has been in the works for what is likely almost two full years at this point to carefully lay down a specific pattern for the reveal of Geno to make complete and logical sense for anyone paying attention to every little detail. All because he's determined to make these character reveal trailers link to one another.

It's one of the greatest long cons pulled off if this is the case. Not only did Sakurai secure the rights to Geno, but he knew immediately how he needed to be revealed and what he needed to connect to so as to tease Geno in Ultimate, all thanks to a throwaway reference in the December 2015 Smash presentation.

OR

Mega Man is the single third party character that Nintendo and Sakurai seem to have the most free reign to do with as they please in trailers for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate seeing as he showed up with one of the lengthier reveals in Smash 4, appeared in the Bowser Jr. trailer, appeared in the reveal for Ridley, and got a literal front row seat to the primary cinematic of World of Light next to Mario. He's the only third party we've seen with this many appearances, and it works out very well for the sake of the Ridley trailer. Having him kill two of gaming's biggest icons in his reveal trailer immediately establishes him as a violent and real threat, concepts that served as the basis for Ridley's entire creation. Not to mention, Mega Man 2 has an infamous fight against a dragon and Mega Man also has one of the most distinct death sounds in the game that can be used in Ridley's trailer. Plus he's a robot so conceivably being stabbed through the chest is less problematic than Mario. He was just a good and convenient pick for the circumstances and the ending with Ridley vs Zero Suit Samus was never meant to lead to anything specific with future trailers. And the reveals for a character two years off at the time of the trailer's conception aren't already inherently decided and built around this first Smash trailer.

I can only suspend my disbelief so far for the sake of Smash theories, and this one seriously pushes any reasonable boundaries of mine in that regard. This is the 4D chess people keep trying to say that Sakurai plays so distinctly all the time and never actually does.

Good Lord do you have to turn everything into a wall of text? And here I thought I was leaving a harmless response on the matter. Good grief. I'll just show myself out.

 

[GrungeMan]

I don't really think there's enough to even call what people are saying a theory. Geno appears next to Samus and Mega Man because they both specifically have blaster arms in that trailer. Then, we have Ridley's trailer and of course you're going to have Samus play a major role in that trailer, so there's no points there. As far as I can tell, this "theory" entirely hinges on the presence of Mega Man as some clue in the Ridley trailer after a throwaway reference to the fact that these three characters all share projectile based weapons on one of their arms.

So, let's entertain the notion of all the pieces of this supposed "theory"

Spoiler: The Steps for This to Work

December 2015 - Sakurai unveils the Geno Mii costume and has him feature alongside Samus and Mega Man.

Early 2018 - Sakurai enters negotiations for Square Enix and walks away with the rights to Dragon Quest and Geno in Smash as two of his proposed five fighters for the Fighter's Pass. He instructs the animators of the Ridley reveal trailer that he has a grand plan and they need to follow his directions for the trailer very carefully.

June 2018 - Sakurai unveils Ridley as the final part of the E3 reveal of Ultimate. He has specifically chosen Mega Man, Samus, and Mario for this trailer in what will be over a year and a half long tease that Geno is coming to Smash. He chose Mega Man specifically because he remembered that he had Samus and Mega Man show up alongside that Mii costume two and a half years prior for a couple of seconds. Because they both showed up alongside the costume, they indicate Geno and Mario seals the deal because he's from Super Mario RPG. He ends the trailer with Zero Suit Samus attacking and leaves it supposedly open ended so that he can eventually do his Geno reveal.

December 2018 - Sakurai makes sure to include Geno and Mallow spirits in the game so nobody gets too suspicious of his master plan to have Geno be one of the final newcomers in Ultimate through DLC. An absent Geno would have revealed this master plan.

Late 2019/Early 2020 - Sakurai finally reveals Geno as the 4th or 5th fighter in a trailer in which he teams up with Zero Suit Samus to defeat Ridley and avenge his fallen Mega Man comrade from the two seconds of screen time they had together in one 2015 presentation and Mario. This has been a plan that has been in the works for what is likely almost two full years at this point to carefully lay down a specific pattern for the reveal of Geno to make complete and logical sense for anyone paying attention to every little detail. All because he's determined to make these character reveal trailers link to one another.

It's one of the greatest long cons pulled off if this is the case. Not only did Sakurai secure the rights to Geno, but he knew immediately how he needed to be revealed and what he needed to connect to so as to tease Geno in Ultimate, all thanks to a throwaway reference in the December 2015 Smash presentation.

OR

Mega Man is the single third party character that Nintendo and Sakurai seem to have the most free reign to do with as they please in trailers for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate seeing as he showed up with one of the lengthier reveals in Smash 4, appeared in the Bowser Jr. trailer, appeared in the reveal for Ridley, and got a literal front row seat to the primary cinematic of World of Light next to Mario. He's the only third party we've seen with this many appearances, and it works out very well for the sake of the Ridley trailer. Having him kill two of gaming's biggest icons in his reveal trailer immediately establishes him as a violent and real threat, concepts that served as the basis for Ridley's entire creation. Not to mention, Mega Man 2 has an infamous fight against a dragon and Mega Man also has one of the most distinct death sounds in the game that can be used in Ridley's trailer. Plus he's a robot so conceivably being stabbed through the chest is less problematic than Mario. He was just a good and convenient pick for the circumstances and the ending with Ridley vs Zero Suit Samus was never meant to lead to anything specific with future trailers. And the reveals for a character two years off at the time of the trailer's conception aren't already inherently decided and built around this first Smash trailer.

I can only suspend my disbelief so far for the sake of Smash theories, and this one seriously pushes any reasonable boundaries of mine in that regard. This is the 4D chess people keep trying to say that Sakurai plays so distinctly all the time and never actually does.

I think it's constructive to evaluate and dissect the merits of a supposed theory, but I don't think anyone in this thread seriously took Fatman's "continuation theory" as a well substantiated and established confirmation of what to expect - it's just fun speculation, and creative speculation at that. For me, it's one of those things I could see potentially happening, but don't put a lot of stock into regarding plausibility and my guess is most of everyone else feels the same about most of these fun theories (color, google, mii costume, whatever) that try to explain how Geno (or any character) might get into Smash. However, I definitely feel like Incineroar's and Simon's trailers could be extended - there may not be sufficient evidence for it at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the two remaining characters extended a previous character's trailer like Banjo-Kazooie did.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Good Lord do you have to turn everything into a wall of text? And here I thought I was leaving a harmless response on the matter. Good grief. I'll just show myself out.

Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to run you out or anything of the sort. I just find trailer theories really dumb and wanted to say my piece on the topic. I don't think it has historically ever meant anything and Banjo's trailer is the singular instance of such a major continuity between trailers. Your post was just the springboard for that. Wasn't trying to criticize you specifically or anything of the sort.

I do enjoy my long posts and conversations though. I have been trying to be better about that and hide more of the stuff behind spoilers, so I'll continue working on that in the future for the benefit of the thread and everyone else involved.

Edit: And to be clear, I have an issue with more or less any theory of linkages between trailers and not just the one Fatman posted. I think all the trailers are complete works with Banjo Kazooie just happening to have the exceptionally rare connection happen because of well... Rare.

 

[AugustusB]

Yeah I don't really buy into theories, but I will entertain the thoughts behind them just to bring some life back into a thread or two.

I find the 'continuation' of trailers to be interesting. The fact we could have had a simple in game trailer to show The Hero and Banjo-Kazooie being announced would have been enough for people. Yet, Sakurai and the team went with CGI trailers to drive home (to me at least) 'Hey, get hype.'

Flipping the script, why did they reuse K.Rool's trailer for Banjo and not just give them a unique trailer like The Hero? We could have had a completely new trailer for them, yet they reused assets from an existing trailer. Maybe they were on a tight budget? Maybe they wanted to pull that old gag on us again? Maybe they wanted to have all the Rare characters in one trailer?

WHO KNOWS. Maybe we could have seen Banjo-Kazooie save Mario in Ridley's trailer? Or box Incineroar in his? Or take out Joker in his, because that was THEIR invitation he stole.

Not sure what I am saying anymore, but here are my ideas lol

EDIT: I like all of y'all. No jabs from me gang. Just want to speculate and be merry.

 

[Datboigeno]

The poll you're referencing has 986 votes total. That's extremely low to do work with and also I find it strange in the original article the Tweet links to that Banjo Kazooie's name doesn't come up at all in the extra section (the Hero from Dragon Quest also funnily enough does show up). I do know the Reddit poll you're referring to and at least that one certainly has a much higher sample size to work with. My point stands though that Banjo Kazooie has generally dominated every poll he's been a part of. I'm not trying to disprove Geno's popularity in polls, I'm just stating his general trends showed him outperforming Geno with a lot of consistency.

As for the trailers. There's zero indication that Ridley's trailer will continue on to anything else. It functions as a complete trailer on its own. All the Zero Suit Samus attack was supposed to reveal was as the followup to Ridley using the Final Smash on Samus in the trailer, which makes sense given that Zero Suit is a character is also playable. Sure, I don't know that there isn't a followup, I can't inherently prove that something doesn't exist. But Occam's Razor will absolutely dictate that a simpler explanation of it acting like a small followup of fan service makes more sense than conspiracy theories on what these reveal trailers mean.

Hero wasn't a continuation of anything in specific either. World of Light is a aesthetic of the game, and Dragon Quest revolves entirely around a very traditional light vs dark motif and how you bring light to the world. Thus, it makes perfect sense to use the Dharkon themes in the trailer where the versions of Hero fight the darkness to achieve victory. There's no real place for connective tissue there either, as it would have to serve as a followup to World of Light completely, and both Dharkon and Galeem are canonically destroyed at the end of the mode. That fits Dragon Quest specifically well to just use that.

Banjo's trailer following up on King K. Rool's also exists for the specific reasons I've laid out and the similarities they share as inclusions. The one followup trailer does not allow us to say there is precedent on the issue. We would need to see others that legitimately follow up past trailers to determine if a pattern exists, or if this is entirely a one off. And again, with the specifics of King K. Rool and Banjo Kazooie in mind, the decision to connect their trailers makes a great deal more sense than any other situation.

Mario still appeared outside of pure in game footage in Banjo's trailer, and Joker's absolutely counts and likely constitutes more effort than Isabelle's trailer overall. It's as legitimate of a trailer as the rest of them, it's just done in a different style than the CGI of many. Much like Little Mac and Palutena had unique trailers in animation style, Joker had a unique animation style that directly paralleled elements of Persona 5 for his official announcement at the TGAs. I don't think it's disingenuous to bring up either of those examples. I'm not saying it's the same thing as the connection of King K. Rool and DK to Banjo, but I was disputing your statement about Mario not showing up in other trailers.

I just don't see any compelling evidence to do a thing with the trailers we've seen from Ultimate.

I don't know what to tell you man. You asked for a poll where Geno came above Banjo so I gave you one. I don't run nor visit the site so I can't answer why he might not be showing up in the results.

And I highly disagree. It had as much of an open-ended conclusion as the King K Rool trailer which was followed up on. tbh I think you writing off these similarities between trailers and the mere possibility of something else going on as "conspiracy theories" is actually pretty ****ty and I don't think I'm alone in that feeling towards your responses judging from some of the other replies you've gotten. Like really it's just harmless on-topic speculation. You don't have to be this rude about it in a way that you probably wouldn't appreciate people being rude to you.

But yeah, no, the Hero trailer was most definitely going along with the plot of WoL and could be seen as a follow up to the intro cinematic whether you like it or not.

There are already two situations (again whether you like it or not) that do present the possibility of trailers having continuations down the line. Yes, the Banjo trailer obviously was done in a certain way because Banjo is a Rare character. But it's still a continuation. Fighting Dharkon makes sense for DQ characters, but it's still a continuation of the WoL.

This last Mario thing is the best example that you're honestly just being pedantic about things for the sake of contrarianism I guess over some harmless speculation. Like, you have to get that Mario appearing in the animation for Joker and randomly appearing in the Banjo ending is very different than characters from CGI cinematics carrying on from the "story" of earlier trailers even if it's still "Mario". You clearly know what I meant. CGI Mario as he was in the Ridley trailer has not been seen again. That's our point.

Really man at a certain point it's just kind of crappy to be a complete wet-blanket about things any time some random idea or speculation comes up. You can't even argue that you're just being objective or logical about things because what you're saying is filled with as much assumption and lack of knowledge regarding the future of SSBU as anyone else.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Hey you know what would be fun? Brave was neither Hero or Banjo.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I think Banjo & Kazooie's trailer worked because like how K. Rool's trailer focused on villains, their trailer focused on Rare. It was also hilarious, since they used the same gag when they never did anything like that before. However, I don't think reusing other trailers would have the same effect as Banjo's simply because their trailer was the first to do it. They'd probably get backlash for being lazy with the reveals too.

I really don't think this is lightning that can strike twice.

 

[AugustusB]

Hey you know what would be fun? Brave was neither Hero or Banjo.

Sadly, I believe Hero was indeed Brave. On the Japanese Smash site if you translate it to English, The Hero's Japanese translates into Brave. I am curious what Banjos was.

Also, IF we are lucky to get a datamined codename again, what would you want to see?

If I see Puppet, Tiny Star, Gaz, or Blacksmith, I might lose my mind.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Sadly, I believe Hero was indeed Brave. On the Japanese Smash site if you translate it to English, The Hero's Japanese translates into Brave. I am curious what Banjos was.

Also, IF we are lucky to get a datamined codename again, what would you want to see?

If I see Puppet, Tiny Star, Gaz, or Blacksmith, I might lose my mind.

ok I'll bite. Who are Tiny Star, Gaz, and Blacksmith supposed to be.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Good grief.

You called?

Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to run you out or anything of the sort. I just find trailer theories really dumb and wanted to say my piece on the topic. I don't think it has historically ever meant anything and Banjo's trailer is the singular instance of such a major continuity between trailers. Your post was just the springboard for that. Wasn't trying to criticize you specifically or anything of the sort.

I do enjoy my long posts and conversations though. I have been trying to be better about that and hide more of the stuff behind spoilers, so I'll continue working on that in the future for the benefit of the thread and everyone else involved.

Edit: And to be clear, I have an issue with more or less any theory of linkages between trailers and not just the one Fatman posted. I think all the trailers are complete works with Banjo Kazooie just happening to have the exceptionally rare connection happen because of well... Rare.

I, for one, like your long posts.

I don't know what to tell you man. You asked for a poll where Geno came above Banjo so I gave you one. I don't run nor visit the site so I can't answer why he might not be showing up in the results.

And I highly disagree. It had as much of an open-ended conclusion as the King K Rool trailer which was followed up on. tbh I think you writing off these similarities between trailers and the mere possibility of something else going on as "conspiracy theories" is actually pretty ****ty and I don't think I'm alone in that feeling towards your responses judging from some of the other replies you've gotten. Like really it's just harmless on-topic speculation. You don't have to be this rude about it in a way that you probably wouldn't appreciate people being rude to you.

But yeah, no, the Hero trailer was most definitely going along with the plot of WoL and could be seen as a follow up to the intro cinematic whether you like it or not.

There are already two situations (again whether you like it or not) that do present the possibility of trailers having continuations down the line. Yes, the Banjo trailer obviously was done in a certain way because Banjo is a Rare character. But it's still a continuation. Fighting Dharkon makes sense for DQ characters, but it's still a continuation of the WoL.

This last Mario thing is the best example that you're honestly just being pedantic about things for the sake of contrarianism I guess over some harmless speculation. Like, you have to get that Mario appearing in the animation for Joker and randomly appearing in the Banjo ending is very different than characters from CGI cinematics carrying on from the "story" of earlier trailers even if it's still "Mario". You clearly know what I meant. CGI Mario as he was in the Ridley trailer has not been seen again. That's our point.

Really man at a certain point it's just kind of crappy to be a complete wet-blanket about things any time some random idea or speculation comes up. You can't even argue that you're just being objective or logical about things because what you're saying is filled with as much assumption and lack of knowledge regarding the future of SSBU as anyone else.

Since the Smash fandom has a history of conspiracy theories ('Rayman in the clouds', Chair theory) I think it's for the best that people calls 'em like they sees 'em.

Also the WoL opening isn't a trailer, so technically Hero's trailer isn't a sequel to a trailer, it just takes place within the game's plot.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't know what to tell you man. You asked for a poll where Geno came above Banjo so I gave you one. I don't run nor visit the site so I can't answer why he might not be showing up in the results.

And I highly disagree. It had as much of an open-ended conclusion as the King K Rool trailer which was followed up on. tbh I think you writing off these similarities between trailers and the mere possibility of something else going on as "conspiracy theories" is actually pretty ****ty and I don't think I'm alone in that feeling towards your responses judging from some of the other replies you've gotten. Like really it's just harmless on-topic speculation. You don't have to be this rude about it in a way that you probably wouldn't appreciate people being rude to you.

But yeah, no, the Hero trailer was most definitely going along with the plot of WoL and could be seen as a follow up to the intro cinematic whether you like it or not.

There are already two situations (again whether you like it or not) that do present the possibility of trailers having continuations down the line. Yes, the Banjo trailer obviously was done in a certain way because Banjo is a Rare character. But it's still a continuation. Fighting Dharkon makes sense for DQ characters, but it's still a continuation of the WoL.

This last Mario thing is the best example that you're honestly just being pedantic about things for the sake of contrarianism I guess over some harmless speculation. Like, you have to get that Mario appearing in the animation for Joker and randomly appearing in the Banjo ending is very different than characters from CGI cinematics carrying on from the "story" of earlier trailers even if it's still "Mario". You clearly know what I meant. CGI Mario as he was in the Ridley trailer has not been seen again. That's our point.

Really man at a certain point it's just kind of crappy to be a complete wet-blanket about things any time some random idea or speculation comes up. You can't even argue that you're just being objective or logical about things because what you're saying is filled with as much assumption and lack of knowledge regarding the future of SSBU as anyone else.

Look, I know you think me a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian at times and I'm not going to be able to change that perception any time soon. Though I will say I've been more with the thread and more brief generally in the wake of E3 than in a long while. I'm well aware that on many topics I stand in opposition to people in terms of opinion and also how I conduct myself with regards to speculation. In all honesty, I kind of skimmed through Fatman's original post and didn't notice enough of the context with regards to how more comical it was and it ended up taking it at face value. That's on me and I apologize for going too far on that front. I don't think it's any secret that I'm not a fan of radical theories and tend to oppose them pretty staunchly. I don't want another Ridley's shadow, another Chair Theory, etc. because those things easily grow wildly out of control, create false narratives, and just end up a bad look on the community. So, again, that's my bias against stuff like that which prompted a stronger reaction than was warranted.

And I'm not calling everything with trailer theories "conspiracy theories," but specifically the linkage of Samus and Mega Man from a December 2015 Direct to a 2018 character reveal trailer to hint at what would theoretically be a late 2019/2020 trailer. That one in particular I was trying to be most critical of because I think that one sounds a little absurd in all honesty.

You're right, I don't know the rest of the trailers and what will come with the final two characters of the Fighter's Pass. But out of all the trailers we've seen for Ultimate, I legitimately only see a linkage between King K. Rool and Banjo Kazooie and I think that's an extremely specific example. I'm basing what I'm saying on the well established precedence of the other seven trailers besides those two having no relation to one another (not counting the World of Light intro as a trailer since it operates independently and I'm not budging on Hero's trailer), I don't think there's much reason to expect trailers to connect. That is a logic I think that is perfectly valid in following.

Spoiler: Misc Other Responses to Your Comments

- I appreciate you linking the poll. I think the sample size of less than a thousand respondents is a fairly low figure to do analysis with since you're asking respondents to freely submit one of potentially thousands of answers since it seemed to only ask people in the Japanese population what character they wanted broadly. That's why I tend to reference or lean towards using bigger polls like those on Reddit you were mentioning when attempting to interpret data from the Smash population.

- Again, I don't think that the trailers have open ended conclusions. The strongest one you've got is Ridley since it doesn't necessarily reference something specific. Luigi not gaining his body back seemed entirely played for laughs. King K. Rool's gotcha at the end of his trailer was supposed to be a reference to him playing dead in the boss fights of the DKC games and then getting back up for a sneak attack. Isabelle flowed into New Horizons announcement. Incineroar seemed like another fun reference. And Banjo Kazooie pretty definitively concluded. I think the open-ended nature of trailers has characters clashing just because it's Smash.

- And I definitely don't see why Mario's appearances only have to count in terms of the CGI trailers. Especially when he appears 100% individually animated for Joker's reveal trailer. I already don't see the connective tissue between these other trailers, so Joker appears to just continue the traditions set forth by reveals. It feels a little convenient to just be so easy to discard Joker because his trailer doesn't fit in the theory you're trying to establish with Mario's supposed absence since the Ridley trailer. And while the Mario model in Banjo Kazooie trailer does seem ripped from Ultimate, he's still posed in an intentional way in a unique background that helps further the idea of Banjo's homecoming and contributes to the narrative of the trailer outside of the CGI. He doesn't play huge roles in either trailer, but he appears, and again, I don't see a compelling reason to throw those moments out of the general discussion of trailers.

- Hero has a clear connection to World of Light, but that's not within the narratives of reveal trailers in any way and the World of Light is already a concluded story if you're going to include it in that story. I guess it could be seen as an inserted tale of sorts, but again Light/Dark plays a massive role in Dragon Quest, to the point where his trailer specifically focused on him literally bringing light to the battlefield as the clouds parted upon his arrival. It really just seems like an easy win to represent that ideology within the established aesthetics that World of Light brought to the series since such a conflict already exists within the game's canon and you can easily reference that material to show off Hero. I don't think anything in it falls under the continuation ideology you're pushing. And while I can't obviously confirm this, I think it's just so much more likely that things are done in trailers to be cool rather than to have some overarching narrative between them and to have some eventual payoff just again, by Occam's Razor and the fact I don't see any other connections that the previously stated trailers.

 

[AugustusB]

ok I'll bite. Who are Tiny Star, Gaz, and Blacksmith supposed to be.

All of these are Geno based. Tiny star for his actual self. Being a star spirit. Gaz is the boy who has the Geno Doll in SMRPG. And Blacksmith could refer to Smithy as the main boss of SMRPG. Or if your feeling crazy...Andre from Dark Souls.

 

[BoringName]

Since geno is a Mario character but is owned by square there has been a little debate over if geno could get his own icon. And this has made me wonder that if he does get a unique icon, could that possibly mean geno getting his own game?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Since geno is a Mario character but is owned by square there has been a little debate over if geno could get his own icon. And this has made me wonder that if he does get a unique icon, could that possibly mean geno getting his own game?

I just always thought Geno would get some specific Super Mario RPG icon since he's still technically a third party. Labeling him under Mario just like all the other Mario characters would be a little weird to me. Plus, we saw that Super Smash Bros X Super Mario RPG was how things were handled with the Mii costume, so it seems to operate like any other third party in that regard.

 

[Pokemaster73]

Since geno is a Mario character but is owned by square there has been a little debate over if geno could get his own icon. And this has made me wonder that if he does get a unique icon, could that possibly mean geno getting his own game?

I always thought it would be interesting if in a future Smash game (whenever he gets added) that they create a new series icon to represent the Mario RPG series of games (Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi, etc). Hopefully with that would bring more music from those already underpresented games.

 

[Deleted member]

How's everything regarding Geno so far?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

How's everything regarding Geno so far?

Well, Hero does make him less likely in the grand scheme of speculation since most people assume that we'll only get one Square Enix character in the pass since all of Smash 4 DLC and so far Smash Ultimate DLC has stuck to one character per third party company. But really, his chances haven't changed a whole lot. He might get a slight boost from Banjo Kazooie's inclusion which indicates that they're at least paying more attention to the fan requests than the worst cynics were assuming and he's cut from the same cloth of "irrelevance" if you will.

The real test is what comes with Hero Mii costume wise. Then, we'll have a pretty clear picture of Geno's chances. I'd argue still a lot hasn't really changed for him since he was confirmed to only be a Spirit in base Ultimate.

 

[Ovaltine]

Well, Hero does make him less likely in the grand scheme of speculation since most people assume that we'll only get one Square Enix character in the pass since all of Smash 4 DLC and so far Smash Ultimate DLC has stuck to one character per third party company. But really, his chances haven't changed a whole lot. He might get a slight boost from Banjo Kazooie's inclusion which indicates that they're at least paying more attention to the fan requests than the worst cynics were assuming and he's cut from the same cloth of "irrelevance" if you will.

The real test is what comes with Hero Mii costume wise. Then, we'll have a pretty clear picture of Geno's chances. I'd argue still a lot hasn't really changed for him since he was confirmed to only be a Spirit in base Ultimate.

Pretty much. Honestly, it's kinda crazy how much whiplash the thread's had over time. I'm really sure the costume's coming back, so I'd say his chances are slim to none... but when you look back at base game speculation, people were quite optimistic. Look at some of the first pages and you'll see people thinking that this is, indeed, Geno's time. It's rough for peoples' spirits to be so high coming in and then so low going out. I know that all too well with how certain I was that Shadow was a lock, only for him to get AT'd, except Geno's fate is being dragged out even longer.

Thinking about it, when everything started, it seemed like he had a lot going for him. Square was finally playing ball, SMRPG has been getting attention, the Geno Mii outfit came with huge fanfare in Sm4sh, a fan favorite had already been added (Ridley) and, later down the line, we'd gotten K. Rool... and it all felt too perfect. Mii outfits from the tail end of Sm4sh were getting promoted to playable. K. Rool, Isabelle, Chrom, and I think one other did (I forget who). It seemed like all the jiggies were in place for Geno to come up next, which makes it exceptionally more frustrating. It's like making it to the ice cream truck at long last, only to be told that there was only enough ice cream for the customer ahead of you, not for both.

 

[ShotoStar 2]

Someone translated what the Japanese audience thought of Banjo-Kazooie being in Smash and I saw a few comments asking for Geno which I found amusing it looks like there's still some positive thoughts and genuine wishes for Geno to be in Smash over there. I hope Sakurai listened: https://legendsoflocalization.com/what-do-japanese-fans-think-of-banjo-kazooie-in-smash-bros/

They also mentioned Sans a few times and Crash like once which is interesting.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Since geno is a Mario character but is owned by square there has been a little debate over if geno could get his own icon. And this has made me wonder that if he does get a unique icon, could that possibly mean geno getting his own game?

I think it's gotta be more complex than that. While Square Enix owns the rights to the character, I think there's probably something tying him to the Mario series, so that he can't appear in non-Mario games without Nintendo's permission.

Also I don't think he'd get his own game, he's not some household name.

As for the logo, I think he'd just get the Mario one, I see no need to differentiate.

How's everything regarding Geno so far?

Same as has been when Reggie said 'new to Smash' imo.

 

[AugustusB]

I hope Square only gives us bare minimum like last time. We only got Chocobo hat and full Geno mii costume. I am hoping with DQ in they will add a Slime hat and then bring back the Chocobo hat. And that's it. Looking at their normal business for DLC, they usually give the bare minimum. However, with the Hero getting a lot of love (4 alts) this may be a new Square. Then again, IDK.

Would people want the costume back or hope that it doesn't? I personally would love it if it doesn't. But if it is ALL we get after all the other fan service into this game, them I guess it would do.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Pretty much. Honestly, it's kinda crazy how much whiplash the thread's had over time. I'm really sure the costume's coming back, so I'd say his chances are slim to none... but when you look back at base game speculation, people were quite optimistic. Look at some of the first pages and you'll see people thinking that this is, indeed, Geno's time. It's rough for peoples' spirits to be so high coming in and then so low going out. I know that all too well with how certain I was that Shadow was a lock, only for him to get AT'd, except Geno's fate is being dragged out even longer.

Thinking about it, when everything started, it seemed like he had a lot going for him. Square was finally playing ball, SMRPG has been getting attention, the Geno Mii outfit came with huge fanfare in Sm4sh, a fan favorite had already been added (Ridley) and, later down the line, we'd gotten K. Rool... and it all felt too perfect. Mii outfits from the tail end of Sm4sh were getting promoted to playable. K. Rool, Isabelle, Chrom, and I think one other did (I forget who). It seemed like all the jiggies were in place for Geno to come up next, which makes it exceptionally more frustrating. It's like making it to the ice cream truck at long last, only to be told that there was only enough ice cream for the customer ahead of you, not for both.

Inkling was the other Mii costume that got promoted. Dark Samus is also worth the mention as the assist trophy that got promoted to playable. And actually Ridley is another notable character in a different role that got the upgrade. A lot of the roster for Ultimate seems to have come from upgraded characters actually the more I think about it. Which definitely made it seem like we might get Geno for a time, though that illusion was shattered in the wake of Isabelle and Sakurai's comments on not expecting too many new characters a second time in his column with Famitsu talking about realizing that they revealed too many at once and that there would be fewer reveals moving forward. Those brought the hype train crashing back down to reality before Grinch ensured that it wasn't headed for a catastrophic derailment. The swings of base game make a whole lot of sense in retrospect.

And yeah, he's seemingly close to getting in based on our perspective, but there's really so much more we don't potentially know about his situation. And when I asked the Social Thread earlier I get a very different sense of expectations to ours, so I'm also pretty certain our tendencies to love the character give him increased chances whether we intend to or not. All the Mii costumes that got promoted were first parties, whereas the third parties just straight disappeared. If he was first party he would have most definitely already been in, but I do think there's more to deal with regarding third party content in Smash than we know. Though, Bayonetta, Joker, and Banjo Kazooie have helped break down a lot of barriers too, so we'll just have to watch for a little while longer.

 

[BoringName]

I think it's gotta be more complex than that. While Square Enix owns the rights to the character, I think there's probably something tying him to the Mario series, so that he can't appear in non-Mario games without Nintendo's permission.

Also I don't think he'd get his own game, he's not some household name.

As for the logo, I think he'd just get the Mario one, I see no need to differentiate.

The only reason I could see them giving geno his own icon is if they just wanted to show that he’s 3rd party

As for a game, I wouldn’t say that it’s entirely out of the question considering captain toad games are a thing and the game could still be a Nintendo collaboration but it’s definitely very unlikely.

 

[GrungeMan]

All of these are Geno based. Tiny star for his actual self. Being a star spirit. Gaz is the boy who has the Geno Doll in SMRPG. And Blacksmith could refer to Smithy as the main boss of SMRPG. Or if your feeling crazy...Andre from Dark Souls.

I like those codenames. I was thinking he might have something nondescript, yet relevant though - like Legend, Spirit, Star, Road, Forrest, Heart (first symbol of his real name), or even Whirl haha.

I'm really curious to know if we'll find out Banjo-Kazooie's codename because it'll help us better determine where on the "cryptic to obvious" spectrum these codenames generally fall.

Also, I might be overly optimistic, but I don't think a Geno costume is a hard deconfirmation for Geno. Since all our guests never had representation before we actually don't know if this logic holds true. A character like Lloyd or Heihachi would have to test that logic if they are in the fighter pass, but their costumes don't return in the Namco costume pack. However, what we DO know is that Nintendo based costumes came back regardless of character promotion, so I'm inclined to think Geno's chances don't change even if we get his costume because there is a precedent for a character and their costume co-existing in Ultimate.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I like those codenames. I was thinking he might have something nondescript, yet relevant though - like Legend, Spirit, Star, Road, Forrest, Heart (first symbol of his real name), or even Whirl haha.

I'm really curious to know if we'll find out Banjo-Kazooie's codename because it'll help us better determine where on the "cryptic to obvious" spectrum these codenames generally fall.

Also, I might be overly optimistic, but I don't think a Geno costume is a hard deconfirmation for Geno. Since all our guests never had representation before we actually don't know if this logic holds true. A character like Lloyd or Heihachi would have to test that logic if they are in the fighter pass, but their costumes don't return in the Namco costume pack. However, what we DO know is that Nintendo based costumes came back regardless of character promotion, so I'm inclined to think Geno's chances don't change even if we get his costume because there is a precedent for a character and their costume co-existing in Ultimate.

That precedent has only applied to first party costumes though. Again, I think a lot of the rules and circumstances change with another company's IP. It seems very very strange to release the DLC character and their Mii fighter costume in the same sort of season of content. Base game let them play a little more freely overall with things. I will take the Geno Mii Costume as a hard deconfirmation in that they are definitely not working on him at the moment of release of said costume. The future holds any number of outcomes, but the costume would likely rule him out of the Fighter's Pass for good since they wouldn't release his costume and then turn around to release the character so quickly.

 

[GrungeMan]

That precedent has only applied to first party costumes though. Again, I think a lot of the rules and circumstances change with another company's IP. It seems very very strange to release the DLC character and their Mii fighter costume in the same sort of season of content. Base game let them play a little more freely overall with things. I will take the Geno Mii Costume as a hard deconfirmation in that they are definitely not working on him at the moment of release of said costume. The future holds any number of outcomes, but the costume would likely rule him out of the Fighter's Pass for good since they wouldn't release his costume and then turn around to release the character so quickly.

I know, but it's a precedent nonetheless and we have no evidence to suggest it's invalidated simply because we haven't observed an instance of this with 3rd party IP - that is, unless we get a Capcom or Namco character with a previous costume getting promoted without said costume returning. Testing this logic will be difficult though since we're 11 guests in and none have had prior representation.

Also, I would like to think Sakurai cares enough about Mii mains (or just people who really like playing the Miis) to continue to let them dress their Miis with popular characters. Especially characters popular enough to be promoted to playable. Removing the Geno costume simply because Geno is playable is kind of a nerf to Mii players, which I believe Sakurai tries to avoid alienating fans like that.

Then again, there are plenty of oddities when trying to infer things from Mii costumes. Tails and Knuckles came back while Akira and Jacky were cut. Akira was popular enough to be an AT, but not a Mii Costume? That's weird, so it's hard to say what the outcome will be just based on mii costume patterns alone.

 

[T2by4]

Someone translated what the Japanese audience thought of Banjo-Kazooie being in Smash and I saw a few comments asking for Geno which I found amusing it looks like there's still some positive thoughts and genuine wishes for Geno to be in Smash over there. I hope Sakurai listened: https://legendsoflocalization.com/what-do-japanese-fans-think-of-banjo-kazooie-in-smash-bros/

They also mentioned Sans a few times and Crash like once which is interesting.

Based Japan. Even they know that Geno is the true final boss of missing characters in Smash. "Now we just need Geno!! Please, give us geno!!" We're all in this Genoboat together. Glad to see the support is still strong over there, we need all the help we can get.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I know it might have been talked about to death at this point. But I find it interesting that during the ballot time in Smash 4. A lot of mii costumes that were added during the time the ballot was running would have some major part in Ultimate. (Note I am not saying all of these characters were upgraded. But I still think they all play a major part in Ultimate.)

• Inkling (fighter)
• King K (fighter)
• Chrom (fighter)
• Black Knight (assist trophy)
• Flying Man (Stage Boss/Hazard)
• Rathalos (Boss. And yes I am aware the Mii Costume was Rathalos armor and not an actual Rathalos costume )
• Zero (assist trophy)
• Akira (assist trophy)
• Takamaru (assist trophy)
• Isabelle (fighter)
• Knuckles (assist trophy)

There was 6 third party costumes that were added in Smash 4 have little to no presence in Ultimate at all or the franchise the characters is from already has pretty decent representation in Smash Ultimate.

1. Geno (Spirit)
2. Lloyd (Completely Missing)
3. Heihachi (Pac-Man taunt)
4. Gil (Pac-Man taunt)
5. Tails (Mii Costume and in the background of Green Hill Zone)
6. Hunter (Monster Hunter already has decent representation in Smash with Rathalos)

Tails and Hunter already have their series well established in Ultimate. There was not a need to really push their presence further (even though there was rumors of a Hunter character in base game? Something to do with files found at launch? Not exactly sure). I really can't explain Gil. Doubt he has any sort of fan demand or chance of becoming a playable character. Heihachi and Lloyd are both highly requested Namco reps that are battling currently for the rumored Namco slot. I think it's highly likely one of them it's going to be upgraded to playable status while the other stays a Mii costume since it's unlikely that both will be upgraded to playable status. The other character will just end up being the exception to the theory due to circumstances.

That just leaves us with Geno, who currently only has a spirit at the time of me writing this post. Geno I consider a special case character because he is third party but is still considered to be a part of the core Mario franchise. He is a Mario character apart from being owned by SE. So I don't think another SE rep getting in would directly deconfirm him. From what we know about Sakurai. He has some sort of respect for Geno as a character (opinions might have changed we don't know). With how his Mii costume was presented in Smash 4, it seems strange how Sakurai wouldn't jump at the opportunity to upgrade his appearance in some way from a Mii Costume/Spirit. We know he wasn't made an assist trophy. And as it stands currently he isn't a fighter yet either. So what gives? Outside of a few small exceptions. The Mii costumes in Smash 4 have some major role in Ultimate. My theory is that there is major plans for Geno we don't know about yet. As people have suggested, he is a bonus DLC character after the fighter pass is completed. The Smash website has a section for individual DLCs like Plant (who is another Mario character). It would be strange for them to have a full section just for a single DLC character. All this could just be thrown out the window though since there is always the chance Square Enix just said "lol no" no matter how hard Nintendo asked for Geno.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I know it might have been talked about to death at this point. But I find it interesting that during the ballot time in Smash 4. A lot of mii costumes that were added during the time the ballot was running would have some major part in Ultimate

• Inkling (fighter)
• King K (fighter)
• Chrom (fighter)
• Black Knight (assist trophy)
• Flying Man (Stage Boss/Hazard)
• Rathalos (Boss)
• Zero (assist trophy)
• Akira (assist trophy)
• Takamaru (assist trophy)
• Isabelle (fighter)

Strangely there was 4 third party costumes that were added in Smash 4 during the ballot time that seem to have little to no presence in Smash Ultimate at all.

1. Geno (Spirit)
2. Lloyd (Completely Missing)
3. Heihachi (Pac-Man taunt)
4. Gil (Pac-Man taunt)

Outside of Gil. Geno, Lloyd, Heihachi are huge fan requests. Lloyd and Heihachi are owned by Namco and both coincidentally are the two most talked about Namco reps right now in smash speculation. I feel at least one will become the fighter and the other will stay a mii costume. That leaves us with Geno. People might think the spirit is all we will get. At most the Mii costume will come back with Hero. But since basically everything else in Smash 4 got some form of upgrade treatment. Wouldn't it be strange if Geno is again the odd one out and gets nothing compared to everything else from Smash 4? I feel like there are plans for Geno we don't know about yet.

Takamaru and Flying Man already had the positions they have in Ultimate back in Smash 4. Technically speaking the Rathalos Armor isn't a Rathalos costume, it's a Monster Hunter costume (they're usually depicted wearing Rathalos Armor as it's the most iconic) and the Hunter is nowhere to be seen.

I also doubt that Flying Man and Akira were big Ballot characters.

Personally speaking, Geno being left out would be no stranger than Heihachi or Lloyd being left out, and as things stand strange things will happen.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Takamaru and Flying Man already had the positions they have in Ultimate back in Smash 4. Technically speaking the Rathalos Armor isn't a Rathalos costume, it's a Monster Hunter costume (they're usually depicted wearing Rathalos Armor as it's the most iconic) and the Hunter is nowhere to be seen.

I also doubt that Flying Man and Akira were big Ballot characters.

Personally speaking, Geno being left out would be no stranger than Heihachi or Lloyd being left out, and as things stand strange things will happen.

Give me a moment. I am making a lot of edits since I actually didn't like a lot of what I typed after posting and I am adding a few more points in there.

Edit:

Ok it should be done now.

 

[T2by4]

So I legit just had a dream that geno was dlc for smash. But it was clarified he wasn't part of the pack and was a bonus dlc kind of similar to piranha plant. No stage, but all the mario levels got music remixes from smrpg and other mario rpg's. Funnily enough I knew I was dreaming once I saw it, since I questioned if I was dreaming and then thought "oh yeah I am". Wasn't really a grand trailer or anything, just a small bonus of like "oh and here's Geno".

Maybe it is a sign from the lord sakurai himself, but I don't usually have dreams about video games at all.

 

[ForsakenM]

Hey guys, been awake for like 15 mins now.

I'm planning on streaming B&K here pretty soon. I'm going to stream on both YT and Twitch, but if you guys are okay with being TOTALLY AWESOME and favoring my Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/forsakenm) I would love you guys to death for it because I'm SOOO painfully close to making Affiliate it's CRAZY!

I'm aiming for 11:15 CST, which should just be afternoon for yeah Ovaltine if I got the timezones right!

Brb getting food so I don't die first.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Hey guys, been awake for like 15 mins now.

I'm planning on streaming B&K here pretty soon. I'm going to stream on both YT and Twitch, but if you guys are okay with being TOTALLY AWESOME and favoring my Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/forsakenm) I would love you guys to death for it because I'm SOOO painfully close to making Affiliate it's CRAZY!

I'm aiming for 11:15 CST, which should just be afternoon for yeah Ovaltine if I got the timezones right!

Brb getting food so I don't die first.

And I'm at work till 2:30 dang it.

 

[Ovaltine]

Hey guys, been awake for like 15 mins now.

I'm planning on streaming B&K here pretty soon. I'm going to stream on both YT and Twitch, but if you guys are okay with being TOTALLY AWESOME and favoring my Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/forsakenm) I would love you guys to death for it because I'm SOOO painfully close to making Affiliate it's CRAZY!

I'm aiming for 11:15 CST, which should just be afternoon for yeah Ovaltine if I got the timezones right!

Brb getting food so I don't die first.

'Ey, sweet, I'll be able to show up!

Fun headcanon: Geno and Banjo are sweet friends. They like to hang and chill. Geno and Kazooie, however, are sassy, bickering pals, and they like getting into Trouble™. Don't @ me, this is canon.

 

[ForsakenM]

AND WE ARE LIVE!

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

I wish just one interviewer would ask Sakurai about Geno again. I feel like an updated statement would either bury him or give us more hope. I'd rather he just let us down, and explain why he didn't put Geno in. I at least want honesty about it. If he said he just fell out of interest with Geno, I'd at least be able to respect that.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I wish just one interviewer would ask Sakurai about Geno again. I feel like an updated statement would either bury him or give us more hope. I'd rather he just let us down, and explain why he didn't put Geno in. I at least want honesty about it. If he said he just fell out of interest with Geno, I'd at least be able to respect that.

If you watched the Ridley fan base during the Smash 4 era, you'd know that won't solve anything and will just further entrench people in their standings regarding Geno and Sakurai. If Sakurai made such a negative comment about Geno too, it would be so much worse on us as a fan base. We have a hard time mentioning Geno in some places, imagine how much worse that gets if Sakurai was to go against Geno in such an interview.

 

[OptimisticStrifer]

If you watched the Ridley fan base during the Smash 4 era, you'd know that won't solve anything and will just further entrench people in their standings regarding Geno and Sakurai. If Sakurai made such a negative comment about Geno too, it would be so much worse on us as a fan base. We have a hard time mentioning Geno in some places, imagine how much worse that gets if Sakurai was to go against Geno in such an interview.

I understand that, but I could at least drop my hope swiftly and begin moving on. I know that isn't for everyone though.

 

[osby]

I understand that, but I could at least drop my hope swiftly and begin moving on. I know that isn't for everyone though.

If you don't feel like supporting Geno anymore, you can just stop it. You don't need another person telling you that.