Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[Razmakazi]

I feel like this paragraph is assuming Megaman is standing there jabbing, as opposed to jumping out of it on the 2nd or 3rd one as he should. Given that option of pellets and jumping, pellets straight up beat dash attack (she shouldn't be able to get close enough assuming Mega keeps his spacing), turnip (can.never.pull.one), and fair (jumping pellet catches her float). Now she can slowly approach with dash shielding, but she really can't cover Megaman jumping over her with a dair (to reset spacing) without a harrrrd read so the match will become a really slow trudge for her

I actually feel like the differences in mobility really define this matchup. She simply has nothing that completely bypasses proper pellet spacing/jumping, so she has to work around it. You add that to Mega's Bair, Fair, Dair and Usmash, which are all disjointed attacks with ridiculous priority and good range, and Metal Blade, and he forms a very nice circle of mid-range zoning around her which she will have huge trouble closing, mostly because of her mobility.

For matchups like this (and Luigi, etc), Megaman kind of turns into Melee Marth + Melee Falco in terms of annoyance. he has the quick, flinch-inducing "blaster" AS WELL AS the aerial range + priority... not to even mention a good grab game.

I don't inherently disagree with the rest of what you're saying. They edgeguard each other well, and Peach is strong, but I think the topics above shift this one pretty significantly away from an even matchup, imo.

Nah, I'm assuming MM is doing sh pellets. A lot of Peach's moves clash with pellets because her priority is dumb lol. And if MM is just doing sh pellets then Peach can float above and dair or attempt fair. MM could bair or fair or whatever but Peach could just land. Just a lot of 50/50 stuff going on in this match-up. MM by no means completely shuts out Peach lol. And I feel like Peach's mobility is being underestimated. Especially her strong bair, her oos float options, her various float mix-ups, sh airdodge into nair or jump or float whatever. Peach def has to work hard to get in, but she doesn't really take stupid damage either. It's even-ish I feel.

 

[Locke 06]

Since when do OOS options matter when fighting mega man? Unless you can punish a spaced fair/bair with them, Mega Man is never going to want to be inside your shield punishing range unless he's using his mobile dtilt, DA, grab (which beats shields), or utilt/usmash, which you don't need an OOS option to punish due to their end lag?

Floating "above sh pellets" will get you FH pellets. Approaching via float is exactly what mega man wants you to do, because you are now moving strictly horizontally instead of diagonally making you susceptible to pellets. And since most of your approach is from the air, danger wrap is a major factor in this matchup.

It's not a lot of 50-50 stuff. The matchup could be even, but it's because Peach can wreck Mega Man and combo for days when she gets going, but it takes her a while to get going.


This thread is pretty unfocused... I'll fix it up soon.

 

[Locke 06]

Changed the title & purpose of the this thread. Hopefully we can use this to help keep the Zero's Advice thread focused on specific matchups.

If you have thoughts on a matchup that is not currently being discussed, please use this thread.

Special thanks to Spirst for moving all non-relevant topic relevant posts from the Zero's Advice to this general MU thread.

 

[Abortion Doc]

I was about to put a lot of input into match ups. I played a lot of different characters and have a lot of input on them. (Especially with Olimar).

I've been looking for some pointers on this matchup, I just lost a tournament set to a good olimar player last saturday actually... How do you deal with the pikmin latching onto you? And how do you edgeguard him? Pellets are negated by pikmin too. Very frustrating. -_-'

 

[SSGuy]

I've been looking for some pointers on this matchup, I just lost a tournament set to a good olimar player last saturday actually... How do you deal with the pikmin latching onto you? And how do you edgeguard him? Pellets are negated by pikmin too. Very frustrating. -_-'

Retreating Nair will take care of them. Most of the time you only take a handful of damage. Pikmin will disrupt charged F-Smash and based on their resistance, some moves will not hurt them. (Fire lives F-air/D-Smash and Yellow lives U-Smash/F-Smash)

It's a game of patience. I haven't played the MU in a while but what I can tell you is pay attention to his Pikmin he has active and what he is looking to do with it. (Whites will be obviously thrown, Purple he is looking for an aerial or U-Smash, etc)

 

[shinhed-echi]

So far, I've narrowed the banes from my existance down to:
(I think she's pretty much been extensively covered)


Projectiles, rival my own.
Shield is a deal breaker.
Clawshot outranges my grab.
Master Sword makes approaches much more dangerous due to size and power.

Right off the bat, I'm throwing long ranged attacks out the window, where Link just stands still to deal with them.

Middle-Long range, now it gets tricky. Link will spam arrows, and boomerangs to get me closer. His projectiles are MUCH faster, and much more annoying than mine. The Gale Boomerang disrupts my attempts to throw down a MB and regrab it in mid-air, and will even pull me closer to him which is all kinds of bad.

Middle-Short range, here's where I SHOULD technically shine more. But it's not as simple. My tactic of Proto-Shooting in and out doesn't quite do the trick. Maybe Link is MUCH safer in this area when I play Online due to lag, but he seems to land that Master Sword way more than my pellets manage to rack up damage (and let's not forget the blasted shield). Oh, in this range, Link now has bomb for me to deal with, as well as a boomerang that fluidly transcends into a powerful dash attack.

Short range, all that's left for me is dash attacks, grab attempts, slides, and smash attacks.
Dash Attacks: If he shields, I'm eating a dsmash or a grab for sure.
It's virtually impossible for me to grab Link, when I have to go through a barrage of projectiles, a clawshot, and a Master Sword.
Slide is pretty much the same scenario as a Dash Attack.
Smash Attack: --Forward gets shielded and punished.
--Down, I don't even attempt it anymore, if I miss it, I might lose a whole stock.
--Up, I haven't been using it much but I'm sure the trade off is: Heavy master sword damage, super low damage of the first spark hitbox.

The only reliable and safe move for me, is Uair when Link is high up.
I wouldn't even DREAM of winning an aerial clash. Link's Fair and Nair wins everytime.

And the yet unmentioned Leaf Shield? Nobody fears them. Especially not Link with his auto-shield. I could attempt a Leaf-Shield grab, but when they see me coming at them with a Leaf Shield, BAM Ftilt, jab combo, or Fsmash.


I feel like I'm playing really wrong here. Next time I will attempt to record a match vs Link (I'm usually too frustrated after the fight to care to save the replay) and have you guys analyze it.
Is it really such a tough match up?

 

[ChopperDave]

So far, I've narrowed the banes from my existance down to:
(I think she's pretty much been extensively covered)


Projectiles, rival my own.
Shield is a deal breaker.
Clawshot outranges my grab.
Master Sword makes approaches much more dangerous due to size and power.

Right off the bat, I'm throwing long ranged attacks out the window, where Link just stands still to deal with them.

Middle-Long range, now it gets tricky. Link will spam arrows, and boomerangs to get me closer. His projectiles are MUCH faster, and much more annoying than mine. The Gale Boomerang disrupts my attempts to throw down a MB and regrab it in mid-air, and will even pull me closer to him which is all kinds of bad.

Middle-Short range, here's where I SHOULD technically shine more. But it's not as simple. My tactic of Proto-Shooting in and out doesn't quite do the trick. Maybe Link is MUCH safer in this area when I play Online due to lag, but he seems to land that Master Sword way more than my pellets manage to rack up damage (and let's not forget the blasted shield). Oh, in this range, Link now has bomb for me to deal with, as well as a boomerang that fluidly transcends into a powerful dash attack.

Short range, all that's left for me is dash attacks, grab attempts, slides, and smash attacks.
Dash Attacks: If he shields, I'm eating a dsmash or a grab for sure.
It's virtually impossible for me to grab Link, when I have to go through a barrage of projectiles, a clawshot, and a Master Sword.
Slide is pretty much the same scenario as a Dash Attack.
Smash Attack: --Forward gets shielded and punished.
--Down, I don't even attempt it anymore, if I miss it, I might lose a whole stock.
--Up, I haven't been using it much but I'm sure the trade off is: Heavy master sword damage, super low damage of the first spark hitbox.

The only reliable and safe move for me, is Uair when Link is high up.
I wouldn't even DREAM of winning an aerial clash. Link's Fair and Nair wins everytime.

And the yet unmentioned Leaf Shield? Nobody fears them. Especially not Link with his auto-shield. I could attempt a Leaf-Shield grab, but when they see me coming at them with a Leaf Shield, BAM Ftilt, jab combo, or Fsmash.


I feel like I'm playing really wrong here. Next time I will attempt to record a match vs Link (I'm usually too frustrated after the fight to care to save the replay) and have you guys analyze it.
Is it really such a tough match up?

I don't find a tough match up at all. As far as spammy long range characters go, I find way more of a pain in the ass, due to her ability to charge up, store, and fire a nasty projectile that eats through all of my projectiles.

Here's some advice for , in no particular order:

1) Learn to dash shield, power shield, and perfect shield. This is really the easiest way to get in on Link because his bow and boomerang both have some nicely punishable endlag. When he tries to send a boomerang at you -- and almost all Links seem to do this when you dash at them -- powershield it. If you successfully perfect shield, you'll be able to immediately hit him with pellets, dash attack, or sometimes even fsmash before he can respond.

2) Mindgames are your friend in this matchup because so many of Link's attacks are laggy and easily punished. Try dashing up to a jab or fsmash or boomerang, and roll or perfect pivot back, or powershield. If he takes the bait, you can punish him with pellets, fsmash, utilt, or whatever else fits the situation.

3) If he's charging his bow and you're at midrange, full hop and send a diagonally-thrown Metal Blade his way. This forces him to react. If he's too slow and eats the Metal Blade, you can follow up with a utilt or a dash attack or a grab. If he shields or spot dodges, free grab.

4) You have three attacks that beats all of aerials for range: nair, uair, and dair. Use them.

5) You don't HAVE to approach him. You can always just sit at the opposite end of the stage and powershield his arrows. If you have the patience for it, you can simply bounce up and down on Rush at the opposite end of the stage and Link can't touch you. If you've got a spammy Link on your hands and you get a stock up, make him approach!

6) You're using Leaf Shield wrong. First, try throwing it once in a while -- you need to mix up your uses of it to keep your opponents guessing. Second, don't just dash in and grab. Instead, dash in, slide into him while shielding, see what he does, then react. If he tries ftilt or fsmash, absorb the hit or wait for a leaf to hit him, the grab him afterwards. If he tries to grab you, spot dodge and punish. And if he jabs, you can just sit in shield while your leaves do passive damage to him and interrupt his jab combo. I find that a lot of times players tend to get frustrated when I do this, and just mash the jab button in a futile attempt to hit me. That's when I roll behind them, watch as they lock themselves into a jab combo with their button mashing, and wallop them with a Mega Upper just as my Leaf Shield wears off

 

[Saltix]

Thoughts on Lucario? I personally think Mega man is at a disadvantage.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I don't find a tough match up at all. As far as spammy long range characters go, I find way more of a pain in the ***, due to her ability to charge up, store, and fire a nasty projectile that eats through all of my projectiles.

Here's some advice for , in no particular order:

1) Learn to dash shield, power shield, and perfect shield. This is really the easiest way to get in on Link because his bow and boomerang both have some nicely punishable endlag. When he tries to send a boomerang at you -- and almost all Links seem to do this when you dash at them -- powershield it. If you successfully perfect shield, you'll be able to immediately hit him with pellets, dash attack, or sometimes even fsmash before he can respond.

2) Mindgames are your friend in this matchup because so many of Link's attacks are laggy and easily punished. Try dashing up to a jab or fsmash or boomerang, and roll or perfect pivot back, or powershield. If he takes the bait, you can punish him with pellets, fsmash, utilt, or whatever else fits the situation.

3) If he's charging his bow and you're at midrange, full hop and send a diagonally-thrown Metal Blade his way. This forces him to react. If he's too slow and eats the Metal Blade, you can follow up with a utilt or a dash attack or a grab. If he shields or spot dodges, free grab.

4) You have three attacks that beats all of aerials for range: nair, uair, and dair. Use them.

5) You don't HAVE to approach him. You can always just sit at the opposite end of the stage and powershield his arrows. If you have the patience for it, you can simply bounce up and down on Rush at the opposite end of the stage and Link can't touch you. If you've got a spammy Link on your hands and you get a stock up, make him approach!

6) You're using Leaf Shield wrong. First, try throwing it once in a while -- you need to mix up your uses of it to keep your opponents guessing. Second, don't just dash in and grab. Instead, dash in, slide into him while shielding, see what he does, then react. If he tries ftilt or fsmash, absorb the hit or wait for a leaf to hit him, the grab him afterwards. If he tries to grab you, spot dodge and punish. And if he jabs, you can just sit in shield while your leaves do passive damage to him and interrupt his jab combo. I find that a lot of times players tend to get frustrated when I do this, and just mash the jab button in a futile attempt to hit me. That's when I roll behind them, watch as they lock themselves into a jab combo with their button mashing, and wallop them with a Mega Upper just as my Leaf Shield wears off

Thanks! I'll analyze this further and take it all into consideration the next time I bump into Link. :D
It really is one of my least favorite match-ups.

 

[ExZero]

So last night I was playing some for glory matches and I ran into a guy who used Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon and Sonic. I could manage against his Sonic just fine but Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff just outright destroyed me. I'm not all that familiar with the Jigglypuff match up and I was having a hard time countering his aerials. I noticed I didn't really know how to handle fighting the character and kept screwing up. Any tips on fighting both Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff with Megaman?

I've read in the thread that Dtilt seems to work against Sonic's Side B which gave me the most problems. Ill try to keep that in mind the next time I'm playing a good Sonic.

 

[ChopperDave]

Use Leaf Shield more. Seriously, LS is really good in all three of these matchups.

LS cancels most of Jiggs' aerials and the hitbox clash stalls her air movement long enough for you to punish her. Really messes with her Wall of Pain rhythm. And if she tries to Rollout, LS will stop it cold and give you a free grab.

LS also stops all of Falcon's ground approaches. While it's up, he can't dash grab, raptor boost, or falcon kick you. Even better, the leaves will stuff falcon dive, too, making it silly easy to gimp Falcon. Whenever he's off stage just fire up LS and jump at him (footstool if you can) and watch how much he struggles.

Same thing again with Sonic. All his spin dash attacks will get stopped cold as soon as he touches a leaf. Like with Jiggs, this can really mess with his rhythm and gives you more control over the pace of the match.

 

[theONEjanitor]

there is no way that marth/lucina is bad for megaman. just camp them to death

 

[Ramzy]

Use Leaf Shield more. Seriously, LS is really good in all three of these matchups.

LS cancels most of Jiggs' aerials and the hitbox clash stalls her air movement long enough for you to punish her. Really messes with her Wall of Pain rhythm. And if she tries to Rollout, LS will stop it cold and give you a free grab.

LS also stops all of Falcon's ground approaches. While it's up, he can't dash grab, raptor boost, or falcon kick you. Even better, the leaves will stuff falcon dive, too, making it silly easy to gimp Falcon. Whenever he's off stage just fire up LS and jump at him (footstool if you can) and watch how much he struggles.

Same thing again with Sonic. All his spin dash attacks will get stopped cold as soon as he touches a leaf. Like with Jiggs, this can really mess with his rhythm and gives you more control over the pace of the match.

This. Seriously, every Mega Man main out there should be using Leaf Shield every match always, because instead sleeping on it and assuming it won't help much, just use it, see what happens when you have it in play. It's so helpful in killing your opponents momentum.

Also not sure if anyone realized, but you can shield with leaf shield activated. what's that mean? when you shield you're safe from your opponents oncoming attacks or any grab attempts because of leaf shield, covering more options, and keeping pressure off you. granted you use it with the timing it needs.

 

[ExZero]

Thanks. I'll keep it in mind and try to use Leaf Shield more in the match up.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ ---
Can this thread get a sticky, to hopefully reduce the number of threads being created for specific matchups?

#wishfulthinking

 

[FullMoon]

Hey Blue Bombers, the Greninja boards are doing the MU on Megaman and any input from any of you would be appreciated: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...a-man-mii-gunner-link-t-link-1-5-1-12.369356/

 

[---]

@ ---
Can this thread get a sticky, to hopefully reduce the number of threads being created for specific matchups?

#wishfulthinking

http://smashboards.com/threads/zero...hread-megaman-vs-megaman-dittos.371407/unread

So what's the difference between the above and this? Honestly, I might as well lock this thread. IDK

@ Locke 06

 

[Fenrir VII]

I view it as this one is general "help I'm dealing with this", to avoid derailing the other one constantly when people don't want to discuss the matchup of the week.

idk I think they're both useful.

 

[ChopperDave]

I view it as this one is general "help I'm dealing with this", to avoid derailing the other one constantly when people don't want to discuss the matchup of the week.

idk I think they're both useful.

Yeah, agreed. The other thread is more theorycraft (i.e. "MM's matchup against X is 55:45, and here's my argument as to why") and has some structure, while this one is more "quick tips for MUs that are giving me trouble" and freewheeling. I think it's useful to keep them seperate.

 

[Locke 06]

Pls don't lock.

Fenrir and Dave have it right. This is a general thread so that the Zero's advice stays on topic and well organized. It makes the "first&last post" of each discussion in each summary much more effective as a navigation tool to find discussions.

I have been taking posts from here when the time comes to discuss it formally. I also use this to guage interest/knowledge of MU's to decide what the next topic should be.

If anything, I'd like your help to move offtopic posts from the zero's advice thread to here (like... All of page 2) and redirect MU questions from the q&a / making new threads to here. (Not necessary though)

Re Dave: theorycraft here is more than welcome. I search this thread for posts of interest before starting the next topic and bring them up as a starting point for the discussion.

I hope you kind of see what the intentions of this thread are and how they work in tandem with the other one.

 

[Stoven]

What do you guys think on mega man vs duck hunt? When i fight a duck hunt, its a even match up.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I really.... REALLY like fighting Duck Hunt.

I feel like on-stage, it's a zoning war that's fairly even. Offstage, Mega's edgeguarding and recovery just really shine in the matchup. DH's upB is slow and unchangeable, so he's very gimpable with bair/dair.

I do think this match favors the aggressive Mega player, though.

 

[Stoven]

HELLO? IS THIS THREAD ALIVE? ok then.... what do you think on ness vs mega man.

Ness's air game is Amazing so maybe ness will win. Unless your playing safe then there might be a chance!

 

[noe3]

Ness is one of the only MU's I personally try to abuse leaf shield, it seems to be that good against him.

His recovery is a lot better in this game, but you can still abuse it. For instance if he wants to recover low and snap to the edge, he HAS to use PKT2. A simple down tilt can hit him out if he tries to just double jump. If now just throw a metal blade at him/leafstool him or something. Be careful though, if you mess up be ready to tech the PKT2 on stage or you will be down a stock.

Respect his fair in the air. Just shield or shoot lemons/metal blades from a distance on it.

When you hit him with a crash bomb watch what he does. Sometimes a Ness player will try and absorb it. This should be an easy punish.

I'm pretty sure metal blades can shorten the length of his PKT2, I recall gimping with it when he was recovering at max range.

He has limited approach options, and we can zone him and force him to approach, so abuse this.

I don't think this matchup is that bad in my opinion (I secondary Ness so maybe I just have an easier time with it due to that).

 

[CopShowGuy]

My regular Ness rival tends to recover from a good distance under the ledge. To the point where I can't go and chase with Hard Knuckle without likely falling to my death (any Ness that recovers high is like opening a present on your birthday). Due to this distance, I usually can't toss a Metal Blade at him before he rockets up either.

Really, all I can do is do my best not to get grabbed or burned by him until I'm ready to go for the kill. Him absorbing things has never been an issue (Crash Bombs are usually a free punish). I have to be wary of his bat f-smash as well. Just one more character you can't use f-smash on very often.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I've had lots of trouble with these

Not sure if these are just the better chars in the game or if they are specific to mega man but most of these give me trouble

 

[Funkermonster]

Advice against ? Got knocked out by a good one at a tourney last Saturday, especially with his Air Mobility and that command grab.....

 

[Stoven]

I've had lots of trouble with these

Not sure if these are just the better chars in the game or if they are specific to mega man but most of these give me trouble

For ness do not get grabed. Why? Because ness's air game is dangerous and you will get KO really fast. A lot of ness's like to jump so use metal blades,lemons forward air and even some grabs but note its very punishable if you didnt get the grab.

 

[Sorichuudo]

For ness do not get grabed. Why? Because ness's air game is dangerous and you will get KO really fast. A lot of ness's like to jump so use metal blades,lemons forward air and even some grabs but note its very punishable if you didnt get the grab.

Seeing some videos of good ness players i faced on for glory, one thing i noticed: at high percents, STAY IN THE CENTER OF THE STAGE. Increases your chances of not getting grabbed and bthrow to death. Most of the time i lost, i wasn't even that high while i got them over 100%, yet one grab near the side of the stage and it's GG.

What would be a good stage for us against ness? FD seems to be better for MM since we don't have to worry about his air game as long as we don't get grabbed. Does he benefits from plataforms more than we do?

 

[CopShowGuy]

What would be a good stage for us against ness? FD seems to be better for MM since we don't have to worry about his air game as long as we don't get grabbed. Does he benefits from plataforms more than we do?

As long as he's below and you're above. He'll send PK Thunders through the platforms and use them for both projectile shelter and ambush locations. His air game is scary.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I would think stages with low ceilings and wide sides would be good against ness. Keeps his throws from killing so early and allows us for easy top of stage KOs

 

[Funkermonster]

Can I still get advice against Wario? Diddy, Sheik, and Yoshi have been a little painful for me too.

 

[mega4000]

I still have problems against good Rosalinas.
Her Nair plus down tilt is really difficult to punish. Everytime she miss something, she goes for the jab and is impossible to roll behind her, also when she throws you up, is very difficult to land, specially if she waits you and foxtrot using up smash or grabs.
Things I can apport to destroy this character:
At higher porcents an up throw, up smash, bair kill luma very easily (lower porcents she has least hit stun so she can call luma with nair as soon as she goes up. You can't follow anything after a throw at lower %).
This are the moves i use to kill luma:
bair
up smash + bair
up smash + nair sweetspot
dtilt
nair sweetspot.
Also, her down b plus dash attack in the near is very difficult and when she loose the star, she goes defensive/running away mode, dodging, grabbing and using down smash or things like that. Some should make a video to teach megaman how to fight a good rosalina with every single way to counter her tactics.

 

[Sorichuudo]

So, anyone have any experience on Fox and Falco, cause i have a doubt regarding the hard knuckle on them.

The other day, fighting my friend who used Fox, he used his side B and then his up B to get back to the stage. I jumped and used the dair on him as he went up(you know, screaming FIRE Fox why is your voice so terrible?), and his up B just beats the HK and he gets back on stage.

Then on for glory, fighting a Falco. Same situation, but this time HK beats his up B and spikes him.

Is there a difference between the properties of their specials or i just didn't got the right timing on Fox?

 

[Locke 06]

I think if Fox goes straight up, he'll beat it out. However, if he angles it, hard knuckle will spike him. I assume it's the same thing with Falco. Someone will have to confirm this, but that's my impression of how those two moves interact.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I see.
Thing is i hit both of them when they were going straight up, tha same situation: used side b wich made them come near the stage but low, and then up B straight up.

Will try and test it out today.

 

[Locke 06]

@ Ffamran -going to move our discussion here to not clutter the more focused discussion. I think it'd be great to play each other, but it's not a mandatory thing and not all connections are created equally. Also, most people are busy doing other things. For instance, while I'd love to get Falco(n) experience with Mega, I'm playing mostly dk right now.

I'd encourage it, as it allows for more experience and more viewpoints, but using past experience is much more convenient unless the right circumstances arise.

I think it would be fun to do something like the Marth/Lucina boards are doing to have some kind of character vs character challenge board. Coordinating it with MU topics is tough though because the topics don't last very long.

Stealing more ideas from @locuan128.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, well, I'm just wondering if and when people are free, then they could just play each other and learn more about MUs by interacting with each other. Granted, considering Smashboards is Smash World Forums, there are people all over who are living different lives. It'd be nice, though, to interact with each other more.

 

[Kel]

Anyone else having trouble with Sheik?

I feel like her frame data is overall better than ours and that she can break our zoning very easily. Any anti-sheik techniques I should know?

 

[Sleek Media]

Just ran into an amazing Olimar online. It was really rough...pikmin spam shuts down our zoning completely, and it's hard to get them off once they latch on. Gimping him can make it manageable. Anyone have any experience with this guy?