Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[ScAtt77]

I've always felt like the Mario MU was a little bit overrated when it comes down to it, but I would love to hear some further explanation about your thoughts on it and why did you change your mind.

A few key differences that helped me out in the Mario mu:

• If you see Mario jumping towards you, either roll backwards or throw a MB to stuff his approach. Don't stay in shield if he does this since Mario has far too many mixups for you to guess
• If he recovers high by jumping and throwing a fireball, just throw a MB straight up to cut off options; using MM's u-air is too much of a commitment given Mario's aerial mobility and frame data. It's a lot easier to frame trap Mario with MB.
• Short hop f-air is safe on shield as long as it's spaced properly and it also beats most of Mario's short hop approaches; he cannot grab you or dash attack you before you can get away.
• knowing when Mario can and cannot sweetspot the ledge is super important since it's possible to trade d-tilt with his recovery; from there shielding with Leaf Shield next to the ledge makes it really hard for him to not go pass the ledge with his up-b. Abuse this and you can get a free u-smash in on him.

Even given this, I feel as if this match-up is still in Mario's favor (maybe 35:65 or 40:60), but it feels just a little more doable.

Sheik on the other hand....

 

[Drarky]

The problem I have with Sheik is that, even when you reach that point on that you are capable of killing her with just one move. You probably are on the same % if not higher, and that ends up in her juggling you with needles...

The fact that the character can easily just shield, roll, throw needles out and we are left without a chance of punishing her because of how fast the needles and how little end lag they have it's infuriating, not even counting the fact that needles can lead into a potential kill. And what about the 50-50?

Even when you practice so much the match-up that you know PERFECTLY what to do in every situation, it's pretty sad that you have to do all of that while she just has to press FTilt 3 or 4 times and then press grab and whoosh, true combo. It probably is better to get yourself a secondary to cover that MU, a character that can at least deal with one of her shenanigans. (Ness was my second before I realized this, and I'm thankful for that since BThrow is lovely against Sheiks)

And yes, I know Sheik's like, hard to master, I'm just a little bit frustrated at this point of how hopeless the MU can feel sometimes.

 

[Sorichuudo]

The 50/50 is what pisses me off the most. Also i cringe whenever i see someone mentioning how she is not really that good cause of the fact that she has trouble killing, when she can just get most of the cast over 100% in a few strings, grab you, and if you don't win the coin flip, GG. Also yeah, needles to good lol. To this day i do not understand why a character with such speed and close combat options should be able to win a projectile war against Duck Hunt.

A similar problem i have with ROB, since not only he has a kill throw, but he also has the dthrow>uair 50/50, so i usually get him to the same ridiculously high percent i am, but then it's one grab and GAME if i don't guess right, BUT, at least ROB has the decency of having a recovery that you can challenge off-stage.

How do you guys deal with ROB? Whenever i have any sucess against him, it is when i steal the gyro and spend a good time just throwing projectiles while running away from him, but whenever the situation arrives that we are at the same percent, most likely he will get the grab before i'm able to throw him off-stage.

 

[Drarky]

It all comes down to the Gyro.

ROB's laser is pretty meh as his only projectile so when you steal his Gyro, the struggle gets real for him. Throw the Gyro upwards or Z Drop it on a platform to make him be forced to pick between you and its precious item. Play very mid rangey because without the Gyro he does not have any option to get out of our projectile game, mix it up with some grabs and force him to be above you. Landing is usually easy for Rob because of NAir but we are one of the few characters that can outrange it with Air Shooter or Slash Claw.

Here on my country we've got a dedicated ROB main and admitedly I've lost more than won against him. But every game we've had has been easier and he's got to a point where he struggles a lot in the MU.

 

[Jehtt]

Hey ScAtt, you beat MegaFox at MLG. I remember you saying a few pages ago that you weren't too sure what to think about Fox v Mega Man. Do you have any opinions on it now?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Just one thing I noticed (thanks FG) : Lemons and Metal Blades cancel out the Gyro on its spawning until it hits the ground.
...I think it is relevant.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Do the MBs cancel the Gyro and keep going, or they clash and both dissappear?

 

[Unclesatan]

Do the MBs cancel the Gyro and keep going, or they clash and both dissappear?

pretty sure they both disappear

 

[ScAtt77]

Hey ScAtt, you beat MegaFox at MLG. I remember you saying a few pages ago that you weren't too sure what to think about Fox v Mega Man. Do you have any opinions on it now?

After playing MegaFox and Nakat, I do think that the mu is in favor of Fox slightly. We do have the tools to pressure fox well offstage and we can keep up easily enough in neutral, but a fox who's given room to camp with lasers is not a fun mu at all. Avoid taking him to long horizontal stages with no platforms if at all possible (i.e Duck Hunt, FD, etc.).

 

[Mega-Spider]

After playing MegaFox and Nakat, I do think that the mu is in favor of Fox slightly. We do have the tools to pressure fox well offstage and we can keep up easily enough in neutral, but a fox who's given room to camp with lasers is not a fun mu at all. Avoid taking him to long horizontal stages with no platforms if at all possible (i.e Duck Hunt, FD, etc.).

Hence why whenever I fight a Fox regardless of who it is, I duck right away. Fox's U-Smash can be hard to commit to, but he also has U-Air which is the safer option. I have a sparring partner who's a Fox main, and we're evenly match despite the MU not being in my favor. I agree that Fox is a slightly disadvantageous, but he's not impossible to take out. Heck, I don't fear Fox despite not being a favorable MU.

 

[ravemaster47]

Hence why whenever I fight a Fox regardless of who it is, I duck right away. Fox's U-Smash can be hard to commit to, but he also has U-Air which is the safer option. I have a sparring partner who's a Fox main, and we're evenly match despite the MU not being in my favor. I agree that Fox is a slightly disadvantageous, but he's not impossible to take out. Heck, I don't fear Fox despite not being a favorable MU.

I'm so glad im.not the only one who does this. Most if the time I can tell if a fox is good or bad just by seeing if they start with laser.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Yeah, always start the match by crouching as well. But starting the match with a laser doesn't mean they are really bad tho.
The camp problem starts if they manage to take the first stock, since then, if we want to crouch under the lasers, they will also be satisfied just firing it away till we decide to approach.

 

[ravemaster47]

It's more than just the lasers tho. I watch to see their approach. Usually I can spot a bad fox over a good one.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I start by using Rush. You could be stuck crouching for a while otherwise.

 

[Greward]

You can just jump over, if they start lasering and theres platforms you can set up MB and leaf shield. Crouching is meh.

 

[Addy Who Dat]

I feel Megaman is graced with having the ability to hang with high tiers, similar to the Pits. He seems about 50:50 to. 55:45 against Sonic, as he dominates neutral, and has one of the few tools to counter Sonic in the air, being his uair. A Megaman who is disciplined with lemons and crash bomb should like matchups with Sonic, or similar ones like Mario, and arguably Fox. He may lose the Rosa MU bad (loses the bread and butter of his game being neutral, and projectile pressure is nullified), however, the ZSS and Captain Falcon MU could end up only being a 45:55. ZSS paralyzer is cancelled by lemons, Mega can keep ZSS away, causing fewer or risker grabs for her, and u have enough tools to cause SOME trouble to ZSS's recovery options. Falcon has little chance in the neutral, and Megamans edgeguarrding ability is highlighted against the few recovery options he has. However the glaring weakness of that MU is that Falcons Jab in neutral can clash or beat alot of projectiles. With gimping opportunities on Ness and Luigi, the ability to restrict the power of Ryu, and the projectiles, speed, and neutral fit to keep a Mario guessing and moving (and not braindead which they can be sometimes), there's always a way to beat a high tier character with a polished Megaman. He just need to stop getting challenged or beat by low tiers, as I feel that Zelda does have the tools to win the MU on Megaman. If ur wondering, I'm a Megaman tertiary

 

[Poopybutthole]

I feel Megaman is graced with having the ability to hang with high tiers, similar to the Pits. He seems about 50:50 to. 55:45 against Sonic, as he dominates neutral, and has one of the few tools to counter Sonic in the air, being his uair. A Megaman who is disciplined with lemons and crash bomb should like matchups with Sonic, or similar ones like Mario, and arguably Fox. He may lose the Rosa MU bad (loses the bread and butter of his game being neutral, and projectile pressure is nullified), however, the ZSS and Captain Falcon MU could end up only being a 45:55. ZSS paralyzer is cancelled by lemons, Mega can keep ZSS away, causing fewer or risker grabs for her, and u have enough tools to cause SOME trouble to ZSS's recovery options. Falcon has little chance in the neutral, and Megamans edgeguarrding ability is highlighted against the few recovery options he has. However the glaring weakness of that MU is that Falcons Jab in neutral can clash or beat alot of projectiles. With gimping opportunities on Ness and Luigi, the ability to restrict the power of Ryu, and the projectiles, speed, and neutral fit to keep a Mario guessing and moving (and not braindead which they can be sometimes), there's always a way to beat a high tier character with a polished Megaman. He just need to stop getting challenged or beat by low tiers, as I feel that Zelda does have the tools to win the MU on Megaman. If ur wondering, I'm a Megaman tertiary

Uhh Mega Man definitely really struggles with Mario, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, Captain Falcon, and really hard to Sheik. A lot of people actually argue that Mega Man slightly wins the Rosalina match-up or it's even. While it's true that Mega Man can wall out a lot of the top tiers (but like any character really), it's the fact that when a lot of the top tiers get in then they get REALLY in. They can easily rack up all the damage that Mega Man accumulates with pellets or Metal Blades out of like one grab combo. I think you're simplifying some of the match-ups way to much as well.

Watch Fatality vs Scatt both players who basically seem like they know the match-up like the back of their hand being both top players, the best with the character, and in their region. Captain Falcon is definitely not as hopeless as you think he would be off-stage and I actually think it's equally as dangerous for the Mega Man player when they're off-stage as it is for the Falcon. In terms of other characters like Zero Suit Samus, Mario, and Fox, it's pretty much the same thing. Yes you can wall them out but eventually they're goign to get through it and they'll destroy you once they get in.

 

[ravemaster47]

Uhh Mega Man definitely really struggles with Mario, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, Captain Falcon, and really hard to Sheik. A lot of people actually argue that Mega Man slightly wins the Rosalina match-up or it's even. While it's true that Mega Man can wall out a lot of the top tiers (but like any character really), it's the fact that when a lot of the top tiers get in then they get REALLY in. They can easily rack up all the damage that Mega Man accumulates with pellets or Metal Blades out of like one grab combo. I think you're simplifying some of the match-ups way to much as well.

Watch Fatality vs Scatt both players who basically seem like they know the match-up like the back of their hand being both top players, the best with the character, and in their region. Captain Falcon is definitely not as hopeless as you think he would be off-stage and I actually think it's equally as dangerous for the Mega Man player when they're off-stage as it is for the Falcon. In terms of other characters like Zero Suit Samus, Mario, and Fox, it's pretty much the same thing. Yes you can wall them out but eventually they're goign to get through it and they'll destroy you once they get in.

All of this. Though, I do think ZSS is not as bad as I originally thought. It's still a rough fight, but it's a patience thing imo.

 

[Poopybutthole]

All of this. Though, I do think ZSS is not as bad as I originally thought. It's still a rough fight, but it's a patience thing imo.

I still have to grind a lot of the match-ups myself to be honest which is why I'm not necessarily ruling it out as a terrible match-up for Mega Man but those are definitely the match-ups I have the most difficulty with and I have seen other Mega Mans that hsare the same opinion too for the most part.

 

[Addy Who Dat]

Certainly characters like Fox, Captain Falcon, and ZSS would still be able to effectively deal with Mega, but I still believe Megaman can deal with fast characters (aside Sheik). I've seen scatt, and I just revised the match and I believe Mega can do a lot against these faster characters. He kept Fatality in sheild on occasion with pellets on FD especially, and to some players, this causes frustration. However Fatality is wonderful, and with Cap can still find ways into spurts of damage or combos. Cap inevitably has some of the greatest offensive tools Megaman can't counter, with up air chains, a very reliable spike, knee combos killing at 60, great jab for pokes on shield, etc. ,but this match does show how effective Mega can be against characters with similar offensive prowess and agility, as it can't be denied that Scatt had moments where Fatality had to sit in sheild and think while he took over the battle.
Ill admit, I was a bit reluctant saying Mega and Mario could end up even, as Mario is more than just an offensive juggernaut. He can establish control with fireballs along with the damaging combos. Mega does have a few escape options with up-b, but this is still punishable. I think what u said about these characters getting in is also really good, as there ability to rack up damage with being challenged per say grants them there status in top tier. ZSS with dsmash or grab as combo starters, a grab or tilt by Falcon and Mario could start the demise. However, I feel Megaman mains pose as one of the best ways to slow down the offensive barrage. Even with a high tier, there is a level of commitment and will needed to overcome the new realization that I my offense can be nullified.
I guess what I'm attempting to say is that regardless of certain matchups, beating Megaman involves a mental toughness that the player themselves must posses. The qualities of top tier characters matter, as I think Mega is really in trouble with the general top 3 (ZSS,Rosa,Pika). However, the player must understand that against Megaman, having a higher or better tier character won't be how u win the game . These high tier characters will still get in, but only with disciplined play
I'll have to revisit the Rosa and Mega boards cuz I've always beleived 60:40 for the RosaMega MU, though I love the fact he's being considered even.

 

[Poopybutthole]

Certainly characters like Fox, Captain Falcon, and ZSS would still be able to effectively deal with Mega, but I still believe Megaman can deal with fast characters (aside Sheik). I've seen scatt, and I just revised the match and I believe Mega can do a lot against these faster characters. He kept Fatality in sheild on occasion with pellets on FD especially, and to some players, this causes frustration. However Fatality is wonderful, and with Cap can still find ways into spurts of damage or combos. Cap inevitably has some of the greatest offensive tools Megaman can't counter, with up air chains, a very reliable spike, knee combos killing at 60, great jab for pokes on shield, etc. ,but this match does show how effective Mega can be against characters with similar offensive prowess and agility, as it can't be denied that Scatt had moments where Fatality had to sit in sheild and think while he took over the battle.
Ill admit, I was a bit reluctant saying Mega and Mario could end up even, as Mario is more than just an offensive juggernaut. He can establish control with fireballs along with the damaging combos. Mega does have a few escape options with up-b, but this is still punishable. I think what u said about these characters getting in is also really good, as there ability to rack up damage with being challenged per say grants them there status in top tier. ZSS with dsmash or grab as combo starters, a grab or tilt by Falcon and Mario could start the demise. However, I feel Megaman mains pose as one of the best ways to slow down the offensive barrage. Even with a high tier, there is a level of commitment and will needed to overcome the new realization that I my offense can be nullified.
I guess what I'm attempting to say is that regardless of certain matchups, beating Megaman involves a mental toughness that the player themselves must posses. The qualities of top tier characters matter, as I think Mega is really in trouble with the general top 3 (ZSS,Rosa,Pika). However, the player must understand that against Megaman, having a higher or better tier character won't be how u win the game . These high tier characters will still get in, but only with disciplined play
I'll have to revisit the Rosa and Mega boards cuz I've always beleived 60:40 for the RosaMega MU, though I love the fact he's being considered even.

Every top player has to learn how to stay composed and calm when playing though because of how big of a mental game that any competitive game is in general so I don't really find that a valid reason for placing Mega Man so high. It should also be kept in mind that Mega Man isn't the only type of character that's stressful to deal with that forces the opponent to have a "mental toughness". Duck Hunt Dog, Olimar, Villager, Rosalina, and Toon Link are all characters perfectly capable of zoning the opponent really well and setting up bunch of traps and just being a big nuisance overall. You're right that having a higher or better tier character won't help them win the game but it certainly will make it hell of a lot easier and that's to much of a general statement because everyone regardless of the viability of their character will have to learn every single match-up and master it if they want to succeed.