Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[ravemaster47]

Only thing that gets me with pika is quick attack. I can't hit the rat out if it. No matter how well I read it.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I don't know what to think about . Yes, he is small, fast and a tre annoyance, but Leaf Shield and our Fair actually helps a lot against him (Disjoint with good range and HUGE multi-hit hitbox)

 

[ScAtt77]

Been holding off on this for a while because I know how controversial this could be, but here's how I personally feel about quite a few of MM's match ups

-2:

-1:

0: /

+1: /

+2:

Undecided/ Lack of match up experience:


(ZSS and Fox are probably -1, but that's just me theory-crafting. I have absolutely 0 BJ experience and very little Ike experience).

As for some of the more controversial opinions:

• Yes, I think that Mario is that bad; his aerial mobility in combination with the threat of cape and a pretty hard to gimp recovery make this mu very frustrating. Heck, I've lost to Mario more than to Sheik in tourneys at this point.
• Pika's neutral is definitely a threat to MM, but Pika has to respect pellets since it's so good at stopping his usual gameplan (QA and/or TJolt follow ups).
• Rosalina is abused far too well when she's offstage; d-tilt is the mvp in this match up since it prevents her from sweetspotting the ledge, it auto-kills luma, and it also goes under Rosalina's Jab. MM's aerials cleanly beat hers when spaced properly and she has a really hard time dealing with Leaf shield approaches with out Luma.

TL;DR : God I miss rush canceling cause we would have little to no losing match-ups with it.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Tier List time!

Is there anyone who thinks Mario is not that bad? Between his stupid frame data and what i think it's the best reflector in the game, what do we have against him?

 

[Jehtt]

I don't think Mario is a -2 MU. I could maybe see -1 but he just doesn't have the range or speed that makes Sheik so scary. His reflector isn't really a big problem and he can't really fight Mega Man off stage at all. In addition, his recovery doesn't have a lot of distance so if you happen to hit him out of his DJ it's pretty much a dead Mario.

I think ZSS is closer to +-0 than -1. Probably somewhere in between. Yeah she's scary once she gets in but Mega Man can keep her out pretty well and has one of the hardest punishes in the game against a whiffed grab (up tilt). Perhaps the ZSSs in my region aren't as good as I think they are but in my experience I don't think it's quite -1.

I wouldn't really put Falcon at -1 either but I'm not going to start that argument again.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I don't think Mario is a -2 MU. I could maybe see -1 but he just doesn't have the range or speed that makes Sheik so scary. His reflector isn't really a big problem and he can't really fight Mega Man off stage at all. In addition, his recovery doesn't have a lot of distance so if you happen to hit him out of his DJ it's pretty much a dead Mario.

Do you know which of our aerials actually work for hitting Mario off-stage? Do we have anything to trade with his Up B or we need to just read an airdodge and go for a bair?

 

[ScAtt77]

None that I know of actually are able to hit or trade favorably with a Mario that puts himself in position to sweetspot the ledge. The best thing that I've found is simply d-tilting the ledge to try to catch the 1 frame vulnerability. Mario has more than enough speed to give MM a headache with his n-air and other fast, grounded moves. That's not what really makes it so bad though; the fact that him getting in is a cool 30-40% every time is not fun either. :l

 

[ravemaster47]

I'll post a recent video when I get home. But mario off stage is pretty dead.

 

[ravemaster47]

Typically what I do against marios.

 

[ScAtt77]

... Thanks for the example, but i'm not quite sure why that Mario didn't just airdodge or up-b preemptively since b-air definitely doesn't combo into itself and Mario's up-b beats it clean. :l On top of this, he wasted his double jump super early for no reason and i'm not so sure that better Marios would be so willing to jump into you like that.

 

[ravemaster47]

To be fair. This mario was t particularly great. I made mistakes too. But all the Games I played against him he dodged the second.b
BAir most of the time. I just think this particular game he let it get to his head a d he played poorly. But the bair did work a lot. Especially when spaced correctly. If he had recovered low, I would have edge guarded with leaf shield to stool or bair.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I have also found it incredibly tough to edgeguard him. I think Dair can interrupt it but it is very hard to time when he can cape stall.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I haven't fought many good Mario's, but he's one of the match ups that completely destroys us. His Cape is insane as it can gimp recovery and negates one of our best kill options: Side Smash. Mario also has an amazing combo game, so he completely destroys us. Oddly enough, I don't hate fighting Mario. Not sure why, but maybe it's because I used to play Mario a lot in my rookie days (and by rookie, I mean when I first started playing Smash Bros when I was 10 years old), so I have some attachment to him in Smash.

 

[Jehtt]

@ Mega-Spider If you get hit by Mario's cape after using Up B, you can Up B again.

 

[Mega-Spider]

@ Mega-Spider If you get hit by Mario's cape after using Up B, you can Up B again.

I was saying that as a general example, not so much to Mega Man himself. Mega Man isn't really affected by the Cape because of his awesome recovery.

 

[ravemaster47]

I have to disagree, mario is not bad if you play patiently. Yes, a free 30+% gives him a significant lead on us, but after that, what then? His combo game is pretty much done after 60%

 

[Drarky]

I have to disagree, mario is not bad if you play patiently. Yes, a free 30+% gives him a significant lead on us, but after that, what then? His combo game is pretty much done after 60%

The problematic part comes from the rest: What do we do to hit back his 30% combo? Our traditional keep away game is kinda screwed because of the overall safetyness of Mario's moves, and because of MM's weight, he'll always get some extra % out of those throws. And when it comes down to killing, he gets the work done MUCH faster and easier than us.

Is it winnable? Yes.
Is it harder than most other MUs? Yes.

 

[ravemaster47]

It's an annoying matchup. Don't get me wrong. I just don't think it's as hard as people are making it out to be.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Mario's momentum is hard to slow down. Bad comparison, but I had to fight Ally's Mario at Smash n' Splash and it wasn't pretty for me. The second place winner, ScaTT, also had to fight him in grand finals and only managed to take games by switching to Ganondorf.

 

[Funkermonster]

My opinions on bad MUs. This is speaking for default only, as custom moves are (unfortunately ...) seemingly abandoned now.

-2:


-1:


Potentially bad (not experienced enough in all of these to be certain):
/

(As a player of Greninja myself, I lean more to his favor by 55:45)

Everyone else is even at worst, I feel.

 

[Jehtt]

Lucas is even easier to edge guard than Ness. His recovery is multihit which means a lot of moves beat it. Even leaf shield stops his recovery, which cannot be said for good old ebola back throw Ness.

Please explain why you think Pacman and Lucario are bad MUs?

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

What do you think of the Mewtwo matchup?

 

[Drarky]

What do you think of the Mewtwo matchup?

I know a lot of people talk about Mewtwo being somewhat of a nuisance but... why? From most of my experience I can tell you with block him pretty hard with lemons, and confusion is not enough to stop our gameplan. Not only that but he's big AND light, which is a bad combination vs a character that has such a good kill option with the name of Slash Claw.

Mewtwo does have some traits that can help him out, and he still has some tricks that if pulled done rightfully, can lead to us being on a bad position, but I don't think it is enough to hold his terrain agaisn't us.

6-4 in favor of us

 

[Jehtt]

I don't think it's a bad matchup but it's certainly a weird matchup. Mewtwo is just weird to fight in general.

 

[ravemaster47]

I don't think it's a bad matchup but it's certainly a weird matchup. Mewtwo is just weird to fight in general.

This. Mewtwo, links and samus are the most annoying things to fight on for glory. So tiring and time consuming. 5 minutes is not enough to seal the deal with a wall of projectiles coming at you.

 

[Mega-Spider]

This. Mewtwo, links and samus are the most annoying things to fight on for glory. So tiring and time consuming. 5 minutes is not enough to seal the deal with a wall of projectiles coming at you.

I always thought Mewtwo was a decent match up. Since he's so light, we can kill him earlier, but I guess his Side-B can make us rethink our plans.

 

[Drarky]

This. Mewtwo, links and samus are the most annoying things to fight on for glory. So tiring and time consuming. 5 minutes is not enough to seal the deal with a wall of projectiles coming at you.

Which wall of projectiles? Last time I saw Mewtwo only had Shadow Ball and... Confusion I guess? I've fought Mewtwo a lot and it's not all that tiresome considering how easy it is to kill him.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I always thought Mewtwo was a decent match up. Since he's so light, we can kill him earlier, but I guess his Side-B can make us rethink our plans.

Confusion is not much of an issue appart from "sealing" our fsmash, but at this point in the metagame, we know better than to just throw that out without thinking. As it was pointed out before, if he hits YOU with confusion, you can still jump, up B or do an aerial out of it to avoid the follow up.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Confusion is not much of an issue appart from "sealing" our fsmash, but at this point in the metagame, we know better than to just throw that out without thinking. As it was pointed out before, if he hits YOU with confusion, you can still jump, up B or do an aerial out of it to avoid the follow up.

Yeah, that's second nature at this point. Character has reflector? Don't throw FSmash out. I still say we have a good advantage over Mewtwo.

 

[ravemaster47]

Sorry, was referencing samus and link on projectile walls. Mewtwo only has the one.

 

[Funkermonster]

Lucas is even easier to edge guard than Ness. His recovery is multihit which means a lot of moves beat it. Even leaf shield stops his recovery, which cannot be said for good old ebola back throw Ness.

Please explain why you think Pacman and Lucario are bad MUs?

BUT, his PK Thunder goes a muuuuch farther than Ness' does and he can activate it from a safer distance and still boost himself, not to mention since his PKT1 goes through opponents you can't just take the hit to make him fall like you can with Ness. Heck, PKT isn't even his only way to recover: He can shoot a little PK Fires to recover high sometimes, he still has the giant double jump and has that good old rope snake tether grab. Unless he can't zair (which should happen rarely), I dunno why he'd even need to use PK Thunder. There's just no way he's easier to gimp than Ness, just having a PK Thunder with less priority isn't enough to do that.

As for Pac-Man, he's just wins the neutral in this match and he outcamps Mega Man. To deal with lemons, he can toss out a Power Pellet/SideB to block it and turn it into an item that stays grounded, Pac-Man can either leave it on the ground to block anymore lemons (and every projectile but metal blades and leaf shield) or eat it to heal a few % and then put it up again. His bonus fruits above the melon also eat through most of our projectiles and all provide a much bigger reward on hit, and to up the ante he can also place up trampolines and hydrants to make even stronger defenses. Both characters suck at killing, but I'd give the edge to Pac-Man here by a bit with the crazy shenanigans he can pull off with some of his fruits: if he holds a bell he gets a frame 1 OoS option that can lead into a strong smash attack if you dare touch his shield (plus he can stop Mega Man from recovering low with it); the key gives him an option to punish landings, edgeguard, and combos well with his hydrant; and more. Overall, I personally feel its 45:55 or 40:60 in his favor without customs. Not very people know all the stuff he can do since he's not particularly popular and has one of the game's highest learning curves, one of the weirdest characters in smash history so not many peeps are using to fighting as or against him. Its not a horrible matchup imo, but it ain't even, and it's definitely not in Mega Man's favor. And speaking of Pac-Man, on a side note, I'm personally considering on switching to being a Pac-Main for a little bit next season and take a break from Mega Man. One of my personal favorite gaming characters and I feel he's got really good potential that's badly over-looked, could be a top 15 or maybe even top 10 character (though I think he's very low in said 10), plus he's just soooooo much fun to play.

I don't have as much experience with Lucario and its mostly theorycraft to be frank, so I don't have as much to say about him. Nevertheless, I do see him winning it. We make it hard for him to approach at low % due to his awful mobility and lack of safe approaching aerials, but once he gets to around 70% or higher it seems like he can counter-camp with Aura Sphere becomes a lot more powerful and outprioritizes every projectile besides Lead Shield. Even a half-charged aura sphere stops lemons, and with customs we have skull barrier, but I heard that it won't even consistently reflect that. The real kicker here though is that if you don't kill Lucario soon enough, he becomes a total beast with aura + rage, and its kinda hard to do that when mega man's very reliant on hard reads and metal blade > utilt for kills and we can't really kill him as early as he can kill us. I'm most likely wrong about it since again I have limited experience, but from hearing opinions from Lucarios themselves and from some people around here, I can see him winning it.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

The only reliable way to kill with Mega man seemsto be with his throws... And UThrow isn't that nad. Never forget that it can kill when BThrow doesn't at times. Could someone list the kill % for Mega Man's throws ?

...Which makes me think. Lucario's FThrow is a kill throw. Don't mess up your spacing when Lucario has a strong Aura, or you'll regret it.

 

[Funkermonster]

Also be careful of getting grabbed by Force Palm, that thing can kill earlier than you might expect it to.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

What do you think of the R.O.B matchup? I think it is hard for camping but R.O.B being huge makes it easier to Ftilt>Nair him

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Up throw isn't as good as you think. It will work only close to 200% on most characters.

 

[ravemaster47]

Nice comeback after the SD. But yeah, if you play your spacing game well, Rob isn't too bad. Just gotta understand their pattern and adjust accordingly.

 

[Greward]

Been holding off on this for a while because I know how controversial this could be, but here's how I personally feel about quite a few of MM's match ups

-2:

-1:

0: /

+1: /

+2:

Undecided/ Lack of match up experience:


(ZSS and Fox are probably -1, but that's just me theory-crafting. I have absolutely 0 BJ experience and very little Ike experience).

As for some of the more controversial opinions:

• Yes, I think that Mario is that bad; his aerial mobility in combination with the threat of cape and a pretty hard to gimp recovery make this mu very frustrating. Heck, I've lost to Mario more than to Sheik in tourneys at this point.
• Pika's neutral is definitely a threat to MM, but Pika has to respect pellets since it's so good at stopping his usual gameplan (QA and/or TJolt follow ups).
• Rosalina is abused far too well when she's offstage; d-tilt is the mvp in this match up since it prevents her from sweetspotting the ledge, it auto-kills luma, and it also goes under Rosalina's Jab. MM's aerials cleanly beat hers when spaced properly and she has a really hard time dealing with Leaf shield approaches with out Luma.

TL;DR : God I miss rush canceling cause we would have little to no losing match-ups with it.

I think this MU spread is over optimistic. If it were true, Mega would be a top5-10 character, and he isn't.
Fox / ZSS are disadvantaged imo, Bowsy no idea, Ike should be evenish

I agree on Mario (and sheik) being very hard. Mii Brawler (if heli kick is available) is just as hard as Mario, but I guess he's banned most of the time so who cares.

I disagree hard on Luigi being as easy as Ganondorf / DDD. And they both might be easier than just +2.

Lucas is not a good matchup for Mega Man, it's probably a losing one imo. The character is just underdeveloped, Magnet heals a lot and nullifies our pellets and he has the combos and kill potential to hurt. Also ungimpable recovery.

Lucario is disadvantaged imo because of problems killing + aura sphere making it hard to use projectiles. If it's mid charged it will eat all our projectiles and keep going. Not very bad but disadvantaged.

Pit (and dark pit) dominate us in the neutral game very hard. Dash attack goes through projectiles and covers a loot of distance, he also has a very strong game when he gains the positional advantage. He's weak when in a bad spot though and kills late (rage). It's a disadvantaged matchup.

Rosalina can avoid Dtilt when recovering :/ It doesn't usually go under the jab, depends on Luma positioning. It's not very bad because of juggling and offstage. Dtilt does kill Luma but needs Rosa to be near the ledge, I usually end up killing Luma with Bair when juggling because dtilt doesn't do the trick. She abuses harder on our recovery than we do on her (although we can definitely get a good gimp). We have some stuff here in our strong gimp and juggle but she should have the upper hand.

MK I think we should lose but it's mostly theorycraft since I haven't played a good MK.

Imo we have advantage over DHD but haven't really played the MU a lot. Mostly cause of weight. He's light and can't kill, and we are heavy and kill... slightly better.

Yoshi is one of Mega's worst matchups IMO (sheik-mario level), his aggro game is very hard to deal with Mega.

TL imo we lose, but I don't have any experience besides getting bodied once in a tournament so I may be biased lol.

Wario and ROB should be disadvantage, ROB mostly cause he outcamps and Wario because we don't have a good enough approach , but they are both winnable I think.

On the not high tiers, Samus is probably even. Zelda imo we win. Same to palutena although slightly. Falco is probably disadvantage. Robin I think we win. We beat bowser, he gets juggled to death.

 

[Jehtt]

@ Greward If Scatt's MU spread is overly-optimistic, yours is overly-pessimistic.

Pit's dash attack which has incredibly easy counterplay in the form of shielding since it is so laggy. He also does not "dominate" the neutral because his range isn't comparable to Mega Man's. Yes, DA can go through projectiles but if you anticipate it at all, he's giving you free damage. Additionally, he has poor landing options, so he's susceptible to juggling. His recovery has no hitbox so it isn't hard to rack up easy damage or outright kill him once he is off stage.

Same with Lucas. The absorber shouldn't come in to play too much, since you should be using metal blade and crash bomber against Lucas (and Ness by extension) to pressure them. They could absorb lemons but the potential to be punished outweighs the benefit. Saying his recovery is ungimpable is also just downright silly. If he's out of range to use his tether, hitting him out of his recovery is even easier than Ness since his PKT2 is multhit, thus not as scary. You can hit him both during the startup and during the move itself. Mega Man can camp Lucas out very effectively because his approach options just aren't very good in general, kinda like Ness. They are slightly better in general though. He's not even as scary as Ness once he gets in because his kill throws aren't as potent and none of his other kill moves are very reliable.

It sounds to me like you just don't understand some of the matchups and so think they are bad.

 

[Greward]

@ Jehtt Lucas will rarely be out of range for tether. Up B is gimpable but he'll very rarely need to use it and it's not easier than Ness lol, Ness is super slow in the startup and even then it's way shorter. Distance moved / time is also less than Lucas so it's no way easier, being scared isn't something to account if we're talking optimal play (which matchup discussions should). Overall yes he can be gimped, so can Sheik and we don't see that happen a lot. It's just he has a very good recovery and it'll rarely happen.
He has legit hoo haa so yeah he should be killing at around 120% with a grab. Pellets are not as spammable in this MU because of Magnet which heals like x2,5 of the damage, it's pretty big. Imo magnet is big enough to nullify a camp gameplan for the MU, it's not Ness' magnet here. Crash bomb is irrelevant for Magnet because he heals like 1-2%, three pellets is around 15%. If he can force us to approach he wins the MU, and I believe he should be able to do so. He has mid range tools though unlike Ness like Zair, PK fire doesn't get that shut down by projectiles because of the second hitbox and can actually work sometimes. Could say more but don't think it really matters.

Thing is, there's no footage or results of this MU so it's just theorycraft.



About Pit, a 39 frame move (dash attack) is not "so laggy". Still it can be punished on block, and if spotdodged it can even be uptilted. He can get behind you with it so it's not that free punish, it's similar to MK's. I do agree on him having a bad disadvantaged state (easy to juggle, edgeguardable), altho it's not that easy. Pit will recover mostly with side B, not upB. It's easy to hit it so they usually mix up their recoveries with arrows and multiple jumps, he can mixup it a lot so it's not guaranteed to get the edgeguard.
Dash attack range is similar to pellet range, so it's a lot of pressure on us. Long range is not Mega Man's forte, we have to go for mid range and pit is one of those characters that cover space super fast due to having both dash attack and dash grab with huge momentum buffs. Pit is one of the best characters at punishing landings and if he gets a hit in he can keep converting it into damage and it's very hard to get back to neutral against him.
A bad matchup isn't that "you can't do anything" is that "you can do somewhat less than the other".

As for real results, Earth has beaten all Mega Man's he has played. I remember a japanese player switching to sonic after losing game 1 as MM to get the next two games. Earth also eliminated Nga last japanese tournament. Can't really say much else since Pit has like no players lol


As I said Mega can't have just 3 bad matchups. Top5-10 characters have just 3 bad matchups. Mega is not top5 nor top10 I think we can agree on this.
Of course my opinion may be super pessimistic or I might see things differently too because of scene / skill level / personal style.

 

[Appledees]

I've played like maybe 3-4 good Lucas players online(barely any offline here from what I know) but I really wouldn't think Mega would have any real issue neutral wise. Lucas has a issue trying to approach Megaman(or alot characters to be honest), the Lucas players I fought mostly did a bunch of wavebouncing PK fires and Z air approaches. I think Nair and Fair are okay for bating a spotdodge and stuff I dunno He can play the midrange game alot better than Ness but its not the hardest thing imo. I also don't really think PK Magnet was anything major cause Megaman has many ways to get around stuff like that especially with Lucas. I usually mixed it up with metal blade,crash bomb baits,etc. I find it really hard to gimp his recovery so I rarely bother most of the time cause he alot more options than Ness. I think its even in the long run really I could kinda see Lucas winning maybe but I have to way and see until his meta establishes so more of this MU can be developed. Just my cents on it.

I honestly can't comment on Pit cause Pit players are so nonexistant online and offline for me so I dunno. I do actually agree with Greward that matchup spread is being really generous especially for stuff like MK,Ryu,Pacman(Sonic and Wario too kinda).

I'll be honest though, next to Falcon; Yoshi is probably my 2nd most played matchup and I never got the impression that it was Mario/Shiek tier bad at all. The worst I would give it would be like 55:45 in Yoshi favor but even then I never really felt like Yoshi was the worst thing ever for Megaman.

I'll say this I think Mario is probably our worst matchup by a long shot. I rather fight Shiek than any Mario player cause I feel like Mario just flat out invalidates alot of our options much worse than Shiek most of the time.