Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[Red Shirt KRT]

From my experience I find these are the hardest/not in our favor


with these also being hard matchups/ slighty not in our favor or even


most of the other matchups are even or in our favor I feel

 

[Diamond Octobot]

From my experience I find these are the hardest/not in our favor


with these also being hard matchups/ slighty not in our favor or even


most of the other matchups are even or in our favor I feel

Ness is fairly even, believe me. We have so many different projectiles that can't safely throw out PK Magnets, making his floatiness a deadly weakness, but we are heavy enough to be nice combo meat.
Meanwhile, there are people who believe that is a hard MU for Sonic... I wonder why. Maybe because Lemons stops his SideB ?

 

[ElRammo]

I've done a lot of the sonic matchup and with both a lemon heavy wall out style and a fairly bair/fair based style... I do not believe the MU is at all in Mega's favour. He works so much harder for damage and you have to be way stricter with the lemon/MB's because of the invincibility sonic gets on startup of his spindash move(s?)

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Sonic can be extremely tough with his speed overwhelming is.

Ness was in the slightly disadvantage/ even group btw

 

[CopShowGuy]

I haven't been having much trouble with Sonic. I don't fight many local ones, but the few I have weren't bad.

 

[Funkermonster]

From my experience I find these are the hardest/not in our favor


with these also being hard matchups/ slighty not in our favor or even


most of the other matchups are even or in our favor I feel

Would personally take everyone off that list except Fox, Greninja, Mario, and Wario; and move Rosalina down to slightly disadvantageous. Can't say I agree with that, honestly. But that's just me.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

How do you beat Zelda? You cant grab her while she is doing her neutral b amd an d cant spam her projctiles either, with Falco at least ylu can perfect shield his down b and grab him

 

[Diamond Octobot]

How do you beat Zelda? You cant grab her while she is doing her neutral b amd an d cant spam her projctiles either, with Falco at least ylu can perfect shield his down b and grab him

Fast tip : Nayru's love has a hitbox only during its last frames, so you can attack Zelda at the start of the move.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Fast tip : Nayru's love has a hitbox only during its last frames, so you can attack Zelda at the start of the move.

Can you grab her? Or dash attack/dtilr her?

 

[Sorichuudo]

Doesn't her neutral B has like absurd end lag? I usually just bait it and then go for the grab at low percents, then or shield> utilt when it's kill time.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

relevant to the Yoshi matchup

 

[Mega-Spider]

Zelda is one of those characters that I usually get beaten by and that's mainly because she's a tricky one to figure out. I usually go for grabs every time they use Naryu's Love or if they miss/I shield Faroe's Wind's hitbox. I wait for the right time to attack, and play the patience game with them since Zelda matches can last a while.

As for Sonic, most Sonic's I fought were of the "use specials constantly" type, but whenever a good one comes, it's a tough match. Sonic isn't the toughest MU for Rock, but because of how overwhelming his speed is, and seeing as how fast characters give Mega Man some hard MUs, it can be a dangerous game. It's best to keep your distance, and use the power of lemons to stop Sonic's Spin Dash, and play both aggressively and don't be afraid to play the mind game with Sonic. It can be hilarious what can happen in matches like that.

 

[Funkermonster]

Sonic is definitely not a bad MU for Mega Man, I don't think he gets any worse than even to be honest, with or without customs. His speed top notch and he can combo for days, but he has a linear approach and can't do much about lemons. None of his aerials are safe on block, homing attack has low priority and gets beat out by Usmash, spindash also has low priority and is hard to use in this matchup because of lemons and leaf shield. He does have many options out of his spindash and has many ways to mic up his approach, but none of them are particularly safe and he's almost always putting himself at risk when approaching. He has to play a heavy bait and punish game an Sonic in general can't really deal with characters good at zoning, constantly punishing you and avoiding being punished. If you play it safe and don't make enough mistakes that he can punish, I feel its slightly in our favor. Also, his landing options SUCK and he's screwed if opponents are directly below him. Anytime you catch Sonic airborne do everything you can to nab him with Air Shooter or Charge Shot if he does Spring > Dair, he's gonna hate those moves. Not an easy matchup by any means, but I do think we win it.

Just a few days ago, I faced the best Sonic in my state (who is considered by many of us to be a PR contender and he got 3rd place in this particular tournament, while I got 2nd) 2 times in bracket and I ended up winning both times. He had quite a hard time getting past my lemons and there weren't too many opportunists where he got to use his spindash combos against me as long as I made good lemon usage and leaf shields, and he really hated the Uair. I beat him 2-0 the first time in winner's finals and 3-2 in loser's finals. After game 1 in both sets he adapted fairly well and did much better than before but in the end I still prevailed. I do think I outplayed him a bit though and he admitted so, mostly because I felt he was fishing for kills a bit too much with his smash (speaking of kills, another thing worth mentioning is that while his kill moves aren't bad, he doesn't really have any guaranteed kill setups) attacks and he SD'd on his recovery at least twice. Other than that tho, everyone makes mistakes, and I felt that was otherwise a good feel for the matchup.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Sonic is definitely not a bad MU for Mega Man, I don't think he gets any worse than even to be honest, with or without customs. His speed top notch and he can combo for days, but he has a linear approach and can't do much about lemons. None of his aerials are safe on block, homing attack has low priority and gets beat out by Usmash, spindash also has low priority and is hard to use in this matchup because of lemons and leaf shield. He does have many options out of his spindash and has many ways to mic up his approach, but none of them are particularly safe and he's almost always putting himself at risk when approaching. He has to play a heavy bait and punish game an Sonic in general can't really deal with characters good at zoning, constantly punishing you and avoiding being punished. If you play it safe and don't make enough mistakes that he can punish, I feel its slightly in our favor. Also, his landing options SUCK and he's screwed if opponents are directly above him. Anytime you catch Sonic airborne do everything you can to nab him with Air Shooter or Charge Shot if he does Spring > Dair, he's gonna hate those moves. Not an easy matchup by any means, but I do think we win it.

Just a few days ago, I faced the best Sonic in my state (who is considered by many of us to be a PR contender and he got 3rd place in this particular tournament, while I got 2nd) 2 times in bracket and I ended up winning both times. He had quite a hard time getting past my lemons and there weren't too many opportunists where he got to use his spindash combos against me as long as I made good lemon usage and leaf shields, and he really hated the Uair. I beat him 2-0 the first time in winner's finals and 3-2 in loser's finals. After game 1 in both sets he adapted fairly well and did much better than before but in the end I still prevailed. I do think I outplayed him a bit though and he admitted so, mostly because I felt he was fishing for kills a bit too much with his smash (speaking of kills, another thing worth mentioning is that while his kill moves aren't bad, he doesn't really have any guaranteed kill setups) attacks and he SD'd on his recovery at least twice. Other than that tho, everyone makes mistakes, and I felt that was otherwise a good feel for the matchup.

Sonic's D-Air has less landing lag, so he isn't as screwed as much as he would have been, but he still has horrible landing options.
It's great to hear that a fellow Mega Man player can beat a high tier character like Sonic. Then again, it's more about the player's skills rather than the character themselves. Besides, Mega Man can be a monster in the hands of a good player. It'll take some time, but seeing more tournament Mega Men would be glorious.

 

[Greward]

I agree on Mega being ok against sonic, but it's not better than even.

Zelda's main strength on us is her nayriu shield, either shield it and punish the end lag or use safe projectiles against reflectors (aka pellets). She's slow so it's pretty standard keepaway game, you can also go for the grab juggle gameplan since she has no aerials lol. Just respect the kill moves and nayru's.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Again, Zelda's give me a hard time just because of how tricky they can be. Not to mention, that U-Special knockback gets me every time. It gets annoying really quickly.

What about Marth? Sometimes I feel like we have the advantage, but knowing that Marth can kill with the tip, matches can lean towards his favor.

 

[Funkermonster]

Marth's weakness is his frame data and inability to threaten shields. Almost none of his moves are safe on block besides Dtilt & Jab and they all suffer years of endlag, and he has generally terrible throws with very little followups and kill potential. The only thing he can do to threaten shields is Shield Breaker or Crescent Slash with customs (combos from his Fthrow and can kill around 50% at the ledge), but you can ht hm out of it with lemons or just avoid getting hit by it. He also has a subpar recovery that doesn't go all that far horizontally. Make Marth waste his double jump, and his chances of coming back onstage are pretty slim. Camp with lemons, shield a lot, gimp him, and its not too bad a matchup.

And yeah, still think we beat Sonic, even if its just by a small bit. It's certainly not worse than even to say the least.

 

[glenn]

Can you grab her? Or dash attack/dtilr her?

Not sure about grabbing through that move, but you can absolutely BAir and FAir from short hop if you space it well. Basically makes her reflector useless in the matchup. I've also found that a good way to bait Nayru's Love is to short hop metal blade. If they reflect it, you'll be grounded by the time it gets back to you, and you can just walk right under it and punish her.

Thinking about the Zelda matchup, something just occurred to me, and I'm not sure if it works:
If Zelda targets you with Farore's Wind, and you use rush, will she bounce off of it? I think she is technically airborn during most of that move. It would be interesting if you could punish her recovery with UpSpecial->UAir.

I will test this out and get back to you.

EDIT:
Nope, lol. If she uses Up+Special when grounded, moving purely horizontally, she doesn't hit rush. However, if she's coming down at an angle she does, but that's not as useful

 

[ChopperDave]

Against a Zelda who spams Naryu, you can just walk up to her, shield, and punish with grab or usmash. I think you can also power shield into a buffered utilt. Punish them enough times and you'll condition them to knock it off.

 

[Mega-Spider]

What about ? I believe this is mostly even considering that Pac-Man has a fantastic air and recovery game, along with him having more up close options than Mega Man, but Rock can negate Pac-Man's projectiles with lemons and Rock has stronger kill options compared to Pac-Man.

 

[Nu~]

What about ? I believe this is mostly even considering that Pac-Man has a fantastic air and recovery game, along with him having more up close options than Mega Man, but Rock can negate Pac-Man's projectiles with lemons and Rock has stronger kill options compared to Pac-Man.

You can negate our projectiles to a fault. Melons and every fruit above it beat out every single one of your projectiles (well, an item tossed metal blade can clash with a melon though).
And of course hydrants beat your projectiles as well.

Pac-Man has more reliable kill options as well with Fair -> key, Galaxian kill combos, and many more. Meanwhile mega man has to get a hard read with utilt, or wait for the opponent to horribly mispace something on his shield. Bair edgeguarding is a thing though.
Megas smashes are also pretty underpowered (or hard to land)

Edit: our power pellet can stop lemons too. even when it is lying on the ground

 

[Diamond Octobot]

The only thing Mega Man could ever have over Pac-Man is that he has a pretty efficient grab, Metal Blades go through anything that osn't a fruit or a Ghost and sets up chains, Crashbomb detonated on the Hydrant and he has little to no trouble racking up damage, so he can get Pac close to kill % easily. But Fruits are still a pain to deal with.

Mega Man might still be able to pop a grounded Hydrant with an Item Toss Metal Blade, but I'd have to test it...

Oh, and I'd like to play against you again, @ Nu~ .

Edit : Any tossed Metal Blades can pop Hydrants. Z-Dropped MBs get stuck in the Hydrant.

 

[Nu~]

The only thing Mega Man could ever have over Pac-Man is that he has a pretty efficient grab, Metal Blades go through anything that osn't a fruit or a Ghost and sets up chains, Crashbomb detonated on the Hydrant and he has little to no trouble racking up damage, so he can get Pac close to kill % easily. But Fruits are still a pain to deal with.

Mega Man might still be able to pop a grounded Hydrant with an Item Toss Metal Blade, but I'd have to test it...

Oh, and I'd like to play against you against, @ Nu~ .

Same here! When I'm able to play I'll hit you up.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Pac Man's fruits are a hassle for the reasons the 9th Pacman listed. However, the hydrant won't stop Metal Blades so if Pac puts up a wall, we can just cut through that...until he catches it.

 

[Drarky]

Pac Man's fruits are a hassle for the reasons the 9th Pacman listed. However, the hydrant won't stop Metal Blades so if Pac puts up a wall, we can just cut through that...until he catches it.

May I add that we can also pick up his fruits, and we've got more buttons to throw stuff without having to take it out of our hand (Leaf Shield works very nicely in that regard)

 

[Funkermonster]

You can negate our projectiles to a fault. Melons and every fruit above it beat out every single one of your projectiles (well, an item tossed metal blade can clash with a melon though).
And of course hydrants beat your projectiles as well.

Pac-Man has more reliable kill options as well with Fair -> key, Galaxian kill combos, and many more. Meanwhile mega man has to get a hard read with utilt, or wait for the opponent to horribly mispace something on his shield. Bair edgeguarding is a thing though.
Megas smashes are also pretty underpowered (or hard to land)

Edit: our power pellet can stop lemons too. even when it is lying on the ground

*ahem*

Fullhop > Metal Blade > Utilt
Fullhop > Metal Blade >Usmash

Just sayn

 

[Nu~]

*ahem*

Fullhop > Metal Blade > Utilt
Fullhop > Metal Blade >Usmash

Just sayn

Alright, alright, that's true lol

May I add that we can also pick up his fruits, and we've got more buttons to throw stuff without having to take it out of our hand (Leaf Shield works very nicely in that regard)

But we would only need two buttons to deal with yours. Crash bomb, metal blade, and leaf shield tossing can be healed off of with power pellet shielding, while we can Fair our hydrant at you and approach behind it to eat up your wall if you insist on sitting back.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think we are positive against Falcon

 

[CopShowGuy]

I think we are positive against Falcon

Eh. I'd say that Falcon was playing really impatiently/hyper aggressively. He was just throwing out attacks the and more you'd run into them. He is really easy to Leaf-gimp if he recovers low though.

 

[Mega-Spider]

About the Falcon match up, but of me feels that he has the advantage because of his excellent speed, combo ability and power. Mega Man can space Falcon out and both are heavyweights with Falcon being slightly heavier than Rock, but with his speed, I imagine Falcon having the slight advantage over us.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

About the Falcon match up, but of me feels that he has the advantage because of his excellent speed, combo ability and power. Mega Man can space Falcon out and both are heavyweights with Falcon being slightly heavier than Rock, but with his speed, I imagine Falcon having the slight advantage over us.

I didnt know Falcon was heavier than Megaman

 

[TriTails]

Falcon's weight is 104. Mega Man's is around 102 iirc.

 

[Funkermonster]

I think we are positive against Falcon

Uh, no, it's definitely Falcon's favor. His damage output is way bigger than ours with his combo game and he has the mobility to get around lemons. Granted, none of his approaches are safe, but he can mix it up with shorthop Uair, dash attack, dash grab, dash-up shield, or shorthop bair. It becomes a guessing game of rock, paper, scissors an if you guess wrong it can often prove more fatal for you than him if he guesses wrong. Even though his recovery sucks in general, gimping him with Mega Man is harer than it looks since we'll only deal so much damage to knock him back far enough and most of the time you have to try and gimp him multiple times before he's dead and while leafstooling stops him from recovering low, he can still mix it up with sideb recoveries and its still a guessing game. Meanwhile, if he correctly guesses your recovery or ledge get-up just once, you're dead. This is one of those matchups where we win neutral, but lose in the avantage. If Falcon gets a lead an wins the advantaged game its real hard to get back in the game. Not a horrible matchup by any means, but we definitely don't win it.

Also, no offense bro but that video of yours wasn't a great reference because that Falcon wasn't the best. I'd even go as far to say that Falcon sucked:

• Too many smash attacks and Falcon Kicks
• Double Jumps immediately when recovering
• Hardly any Dthrow combos
• Was very aggressive and impatient with his approaches. Instead of baiting and punishing, he tried to play Falcon like a rushdown character, when he isn't one.
• Used laggy aerials like Knee and Dair too much

Also some pointers from your side: I didn't really see you use Dtilt or Uair even once in this set and you rolled and Fsmashed too much. If that Falcon were quicker about his punishes or used roll punishing options like Raptor Boost or Dash Attack you could have been finished. I also think you could be a bit better about your lemon play and use Metal Blades as an item more, and I didn't really see you do any Dthrow combos either. Dthrow > Bair is the best.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I would like to go in depth in the matchup, I feel as if it is in our top 5 worst matchups if not the worst.

I have found leaf shield to help out a lot but if I camp leaf shield and go for grabs i find pika sits back and thunder jolts the crap outta me. Any tips in this matchup?

Pika is so small and fast that it makes it tough to get a KO hit on him. I find i usually kill him with Usmash (reading quick attack), back throw, and back air. it is really tough to hit pika with utilt.

Also any tips on edgeguarding Pika? quick attack is so hard to hit and can be varied alot.

 

[Greward]

I would like to go in depth in the matchup, I feel as if it is in our top 5 worst matchups if not the worst.

I have found leaf shield to help out a lot but if I camp leaf shield and go for grabs i find pika sits back and thunder jolts the crap outta me. Any tips in this matchup?

Pika is so small and fast that it makes it tough to get a KO hit on him. I find i usually kill him with Usmash (reading quick attack), back throw, and back air. it is really tough to hit pika with utilt.

Also any tips on edgeguarding Pika? quick attack is so hard to hit and can be varied alot.

To gimp pika you have to outright hard read where he'll go with quick attack. Pretty hard lol

It's not 5 worst imo but it's a disadvantageous one. Try to keep away with pellets and grab a lot. Pivot grab works pretty good in this matchup. Bthrow is the best for kills, it's hard to hit pika with anything else. Usmash oos works too. He should approach, if he goes for thunderjolt spam he's doing it wrong.

 

[Mega-Spider]

To gimp pika you have to outright hard read where he'll go with quick attack. Pretty hard lol

It's not 5 worst imo but it's a disadvantageous one. Try to keep away with pellets and grab a lot. Pivot grab works pretty good in this matchup. Bthrow is the best for kills, it's hard to hit pika with anything else. Usmash oos works too. He should approach, if he goes for thunderjolt spam he's doing it wrong.

Spark Shock on Pikachu? That sounds hilarious.
I do think Pikachu has the advantage over us, but not Top 5 Worst material. Would using Leaf Shield to negate Pikachu's N-Special and D-Tilt work for mix ups?

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

You can diagonal metalblade to up tilt if you catch pikachu doing a standing thunderjolt

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Any good pika won't do a standing thunderjolt though. I am uploading a video of a match I had with a realy good one on the ladder.

I'm realy struggling with the matchup atm

 

[Funkermonster]

Any good pika won't do a standing thunderjolt though. I am uploading a video of a match I had with a realy good one on the ladder.

I'm realy struggling with the matchup atm

Uhh..... may I ask if you ever play offline or in tournaments? No offense man, but Smash Ladder, or Online Play as a whole, isn't a very good metric for judging matchups. Nintendo still sucks at Internet, no matter how smooth a match feels, there's always going to be at least 3-4 frames of input lag minimum. Even the best connections will still have a few frames of delay, which can mess up timings on a lot of things, even during critical moments that can turn the tide of battle. This makes some caracters easier to use than others and causes an imbalance on both sides. Smash Ladder may be the best place to learn matchups online, but overall? Offline is what matters most. Its better than For Glory, but that doesn't set the bar high. Please keep this all in mind.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Uhh..... may I ask if you ever play offline or in tournaments? No offense man, but Smash Ladder, or Online Play as a whole, isn't a very good metric for judging matchups. Nintendo still sucks at Internet, no matter how smooth a match feels, there's always going to be at least 3-4 frames of input lag minimum. Even the best connections will still have a few frames of delay, which can mess up timings on a lot of things, even during critical moments that can turn the tide of battle. This makes some caracters easier to use than others and causes an imbalance on both sides. Smash Ladder may be the best place to learn matchups online, but overall? Offline is what matters most. Its better than For Glory, but that doesn't set the bar high. Please keep this all in mind.

I understand your point but.. there isnt a competitive smash scene everywhere