Meta General MU Help/Discussion

[Funkermonster]

Even so, its important to remember that online and offline aren't exactly the same experience, and its generally accepted that offline is the main event.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Even so, its important to remember that online and offline aren't exactly the same experience, and its generally accepted that offline is the main event.

True but, the point is that there are a lot of people that cannot play offline cause either there are no tournament on their area, or there are just a few and they can't always attend to it.
I agree that online can be a little "iffy", wich is why we have so many different opinions on matchups like Falcon, for instance, but i don't think you should discard the ladder as a whole when discussing MUs.


Also, this new sig of yours is ******* awesome.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I agree completely with you pika, there isn't a Large scene in my area. I have played some good players offline, like I have taken sets of a player that has beaten coco. Who has gone up against zero in tournaments.

Not that that actually means anything though. But I do agree with you.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think these do a decent job showing how the matchups go at a high level of play.

Here is some of me. One against pika one against fox.

I was fishing hard for the kill against pika and the SD didn't help.

Our main goal is to keep these out and they do a great job rushing me down.

I was rank silver 1 on the ladder and those were both silver 1 ranks as well.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think these do a decent job showing how the matchups go at a high level of play.

Here is some of me. One against pika one against fox.

I was fishing hard for the kill against pika and the SD didn't help.

Our main goal is to keep these out and they do a great job rushing me down.

I was rank silver 1 on the ladder and those were both silver 1 ranks as well.

Ok, Ive watched them both. There seems to be a common mistake between the Megaman community: backthrowing at early percentages! First of all it dooesnt combo in anything (maybe bait an airdodge and mb?) And it is a killing throw, one that is safe nd easy to pull, then why would you stall it from the start of the battle? Dthrow (which is almost useless at kill percentages so it really doesnt matter if stalled) can combo into fair for 13% (heck you can even pull up 17% if you follow dthrow with a nair and then a fair but I still cant do that) so there is no reason to do a bthrow at the start of the battle, also, not wo sure about this one bur I think we can shield aftwr the first of Fox uptilts

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I agree I do it out of habit. I just do it for the percent damage it does. I should do up throw more often though cause I think it does similar percent. And save Bthrow for KOs.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I agree I do it out of habit. I just do it for the percent damage it does. I should do up throw more often though cause I think it does similar percent. And save Bthrow for KOs.

Fthrow can work for spacing and you can put pressure with mb/cb, up throw does a good job if you try to juggle also, up throw should work to keep regrabbing them

 

[Mega-Spider]

I also make the mistake of B-throwing just because it does a good deal of damage. It's a habit that I need to kick and I need to replace that with Z-Airing the Metal Blade.

 

[Greward]

Bthrow at low % is good. Stale doesn't matter because when you want to kill with it, it won't be staled anymore lol
Dthrow to bair or up air is better than bthrow, but bthrow should be better than dthrow-fair. Dthrow fair at low % is pretty bad, it leaves us in a bad position.
Bthrow does nearly the same damage and it puts them in a pretty bad position. It's easy to follow it up after the bthrow.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Bthrow at low % is good. Stale doesn't matter because when you want to kill with it, it won't be staled anymore lol
Dthrow to bair or up air is better than bthrow, but bthrow should be better than dthrow-fair. Dthrow fair at low % is pretty bad, it leaves us in a bad position.
Bthrow does nearly the same damage and it puts them in a pretty bad position. It's easy to follow it up after the bthrow.

What do you mean when you say it doesnt stqle anymore? Doesnt the stale last the whole stock? Also bthrow doesnt combo in amything, how is it thqt it leaves them is a bad position? You can follow the fair with a nair and even tho it doesnt hit it keeps opponnents at a safe distance

 

[Greward]

What do you mean when you say it doesnt stqle anymore? Doesnt the stale last the whole stock? Also bthrow doesnt combo in amything, how is it thqt it leaves them is a bad position? You can follow the fair with a nair and even tho it doesnt hit it keeps opponnents at a safe distance

Stale doesn't last a whole stock, it lasts a fix number of hits. In brawl it lasted 9 moves if i remember correctly, don't know the number in smash4.
So if it were 9, to un-stale bthrow you would have to make 9 hits (like 9 pellets or whatever).
Multihit moves up to 3 hits, each one counts as a move for unstaling purposes, if the multihit is more than 3 hits, then it only counts as 1.

That's how it worked in brawl, so I can't be sure about everything. But I'm sure that staling doesn't last a whole stock.

Dthrow fair, unless you got rage or it is in mid %, will leave them in front of you cause fair lacks knockback. Bthrow leaves them more far away, it creates more space. It is also easy to follow up afterwards, but it's not true combos of course. Moslty they are left a bit far away above you, which is usually a bad spot, creating a juggle / land punish opportunity.

Still it's not a case of always do bthrow over dthrow, just that it's also useful.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

What do you think of the Ryu matchup? I think we are on a slight disadvantage

 

[p1ay6ack]

the Ryu matchup depends on the playstyle the Ryu is using. Like if Ryu is approaching you from the air, RAR Bairs, up airs, nair and fairs are decent anti-air moves that lead to juggle situations or grabs. If Ryu approaches from the ground, pellets are great for zoning, the occoasianal metal blade is good, the metal blade plus leaf shield combo is good too.

Thr problems for Megaman is Ryu's dash attacks and fairs. They are strong enough to beat megaman's pellets and when they do, they put you in a disadvantegous position like getting juggled or punished really bad, or maybe leave you offstage in 70-30 situations on Ryu's ledge guarding, which is thankfully not that good, but its still sucky that you can land on a dair, or if you get read,a down b, or out of shield shoryuken

 

[Drarky]

What do you think of the Ryu matchup? I think we are on a slight disadvantage

Welcome everybody to the Theorycraft Party Simulator, because I barely know about Ryu, so take everything I say as just that.

So, Ryu is a character which focuses on heavy punishes, footsies, and being overall close combat oriented, he doesn't have that many approach options but I don't think he needs more than what he has.

The MU should go like... well, almost every projectile characters agaisn't Ryu: You want to wall him, stay away from him, his punches and kicks hurt. A lot. Lemons help a lot in that regard, because his projectile it's too weak to actually deal with ours, approaching is his best option in most cases, his DA and FAir are pretty good at the dealing with the Lemons.

Now, the part where I think the MU will be decided is in the air, because Ryu can juggle MM easily, and Ryu does not have any option to mess around with Air Shooter, both characters can get some % pretty quick when getting in.

The part that I think sets Ryu a little bit above tho, it's killing. Shoryuken is SCARY. MM is forced to not take risk at all from the moment he is at kill %s. Luckily for us if he gets too eager, we can punish his Shoryuken with ours version of it

I don't think I have enough experience to actually qualify this MU, but I'll say that it comes down to the MM being good enougn at the walling or Ryu being good enough at the punishes.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Quoting Locke06 here since he made a very informative post on this MU.
Will watch the video later.

Before I forget. Just had a long sparring match vs Ryu last night.

Spoiler: notes

• You can crouch under jab, dash grab, hado, shakenetsu, and probably cl.lp. You can crouch the donkey kick, but there's a hitbox on his body and the grounded leg as well.
• At close range and low %, possibly SDI shakenetsu towards Ryu and utilt through it. I think the last hitbox is further forward so if you're deep in it, you won't get launched = frame advantage = utilt.
• Ryu's SH spacing game and fast fall is amazing. Battlefield felt like a bad choice because of his platform movement allows for fast fall FAir or NAir which gets him a lot of reward on hit. Lylat would have been worse if it weren't for the tilt.
• Anti-air his FAir jump in and shield>utilt soft NAirs that don't cross up. Spaced FAir is safe.
• Getting grabbed is better than getting TSRK'd, but his pummel and throws hurt and positional advantage = great for Ryu. Hado traps, Cr.lk>TSRK punishing ledge getups. Scary stuff.
• Speaking of TSRK, utilt punish it. The shield push puts you almost at the perfect space to do it.
• Back air beats Tatsu and FA (duh but yeah...) Edge guard away.
• MB and CB go underneath Hado. Item MB clashes.
• If you call a hado, FH diagonal MB>utilt is a great punish from midrange.
• DI FAir away to avoid it linking into itself for an easy 28%.
• Tatsu edge guard is mean when you are forced to up-B straight vertical.
• Dsmash is safe on block. Don't try to punish.
• Utilt at unsafe % is never worth it. Usmash instead.
• Tatsu is great vs pellets. Bad vs shield.

I think that's all I have for now. A lot of it is duh, but random thoughts.

Also haven't seen p1ay6ack post in a while, good to see you're still around lol

 

[ravemaster47]

I don't think it's in ryus favor. Of course I haven't played any solid ryu either. Leaf shield is pretty good here. I've gotten gimps without even trying.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I don't think it's in ryus favor. Of course I haven't played any solid ryu either. Leaf shield is pretty good here. I've gotten gimps without even trying.

Did you see the match against Ryu I posted? On there you can see me dping a leafstool (or something like that) on the last stock if I remember correctly and I thought thematch was over and you can even see Megaman standing doing nothing until I saw Ryu came back

 

[ravemaster47]

I saw. I'm convinced we have the advantage. I just think that ryu was really good and knew the matchup. And I feel you still should have had that match, but assumed you did and didn't capitalize on his vulnerable recovery.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

We have the adv. I'm pretty sure. He is a fairly slow moving and slow aerial speed that really works well for us with pellet walls and Uair strings.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I tried to make Ryu my secondary. Ryu's neutral game is weak. Put that up against Mega Man's who has a crazy good neutral game. He's like the complete opposite of Mega Man: Bad neutral, good at sealing KOs.

 

[Saltix]

Any advice on the ZSS matchup?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Any advice on the ZSS matchup?

From my experience, I've only ran into a few decent ZSS players. ZSS has the complete advantage due to her speed and her air game.

 

[CopShowGuy]

In the early days, Mega Man was a really bad matchup for ZSS. Then they started realizing it was because we were better than her when grounded so they started jumping and spacing with their whips.

Best I've been able to do is use uair and usmash to punish the jumps when I can. They are usually shorthops which gives you enough time to dash in and do those when at pellet range.

 

[Sorichuudo]

In the early days, Mega Man was a really bad matchup for ZSS. Then they started realizing it was because we were better than her when grounded so they started jumping and spacing with their whips.

Best I've been able to do is use uair and usmash to punish the jumps when I can. They are usually shorthops which gives you enough time to dash in and do those when at pellet range.

Can we crouch under any of her moves?

 

[Mega-Spider]

In the early days, Mega Man was a really bad matchup for ZSS. Then they started realizing it was because we were better than her when grounded so they started jumping and spacing with their whips.

Best I've been able to do is use uair and usmash to punish the jumps when I can. They are usually shorthops which gives you enough time to dash in and do those when at pellet range.

I still say ZSS's air game and combo ability is what makes her have the advantage, but we have the grounded advantage, and withstand more than ZSS.

 

[Jehtt]

If ZSS whiffs a grab against Mega Man at even 80 percent, it could spell doom. Up Tilt is a frame 6 punish move that kills at that percent. If you think she's going to grab you, roll behind/spot dodge depending on the spacing and punish.

 

[Saltix]

Can we crouch under any of her moves?

Quite a few of them actually.

I play against a very good ZSS player quite frequently, and as he's perfectng his kill setups and such the MU is getting increasingly difficult. Mega Man gets juggled easily by her, and her Up B Kills at pretty low %s (when you're close to the top blastzone at least). She has pretty fast options after whiffed attacks that make getting solid punishes somewhat difficult if you didn't have good positioning beforehand. She's got pretty good mobility in the air and on the ground as well. I don't think the MU is too terribly bad on certain stages, but I was wondering if anyone else plays the MU frequently enough to offer some tidbits of info.

 

[Locke 06]

Any advice on the ZSS matchup?

Don't get hit by NAir, especially at ~60% (Down-B) or 90-130 (Back Air kill)
Don't get Dsmashed, especially at the ledge.
Don't airdodge into her without fast falling (Airdodging the first BAir will only get you hit by the second)
Be wary of flip jump traps (dthrow>mixups, bthrow>flip jump) and DI boost kick correctly.
Z-air beats careless pelleting as does NAir.
AC DJ DAir is usually unsafe due to tether.

Forward roll, shield, and run under>usmash are ZSS specific things that she struggles with. Play good defense, pick good stages, and punish accordingly. Play well, and you should win. Play poorly, and you will lose.

Youtube "Locke Disorient" and you'll find multiple sets of me playing the MU as we meet in almost every tournament we go to.

 

[ravemaster47]

Pretty much what Locke said. This is a matchup I hit a few times here and there. And I can always tell a good ZSS over a bad one based on how they do the down B comninations. I usually stay max distance and avoid doing triple pellets here unless I feel I can get the third one in. If she hides behind mini stun blasts, I usually ftilt through them, but it coukd also be an attempt to lure you in woth her down b as well. As Locke said, it's a match where patience is key to winning. Make smart plays and choose your stages wisely.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Don't get hit by NAir, especially at ~60% (Down-B) or 90-130 (Back Air kill)
Don't get Dsmashed, especially at the ledge.
Don't airdodge into her without fast falling (Airdodging the first BAir will only get you hit by the second)
Be wary of flip jump traps (dthrow>mixups, bthrow>flip jump) and DI boost kick correctly.
Z-air beats careless pelleting as does NAir.
AC DJ DAir is usually unsafe due to tether.

Forward roll, shield, and run under>usmash are ZSS specific things that she struggles with. Play good defense, pick good stages, and punish accordingly. Play well, and you should win. Play poorly, and you will lose.

Youtube "Locke Disorient" and you'll find multiple sets of me playing the MU as we meet in almost every tournament we go to.

If i can take the chance to ask, what is the correct way to DI boost kick?

 

[Locke 06]

If i can take the chance to ask, what is the correct way to DI boost kick?

It launches at a 50° angle.

Down and away if you don't want to get killed off the top. DI straight in if you don't want to get killed off the side. Combination of the both depending on your positioning.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Sheik is an annoying matchup for her combos..

 

[ravemaster47]

Sneak are you from the dfw area?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Sheik is an annoying matchup for her combos..

Brah, Sheik is an annoying match up for nearly every character. The only characters that have an even chance against her are Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu. She's our worst match up, but that's not surprising considering that she's a lot of other characters' worst match up.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Sneak are you from the dfw area?

Whats dfw?

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Brah, Sheik is an annoying match up for nearly every character. The only characters that have an even chance against her are Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu. She's our worst match up, but that's not surprising considering that she's a lot of other characters' worst match up.

Sheik isour worst matchup? What about: Rob, Pikachu, ZSS, Rosalina and Megaman?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

The Mega ditto is the funniest MU ever for me. I mean, projectiles fly everywhere and the stock goes to the one who gets a Charge Shot first because it's transcendent and crosses the opponent's zone
isn't really in our favor, but it isn't THAT bad. A good R.O.B. will cause us trouble, but we can get an edge if we get in close Mid-Range (Thank you based Nair). Mario might be worse since he is fast, has easy combos and safe kill moves with a safe reflector (dat cape).
Meanwhile, Shiek can outcamp us with Needles, combo us for days and can wave inside and outside of our Mid-Range. Her only trouble is killing, but her kill setups are so strong, it nearly nullifies that problem. She deserves her title of "Hardest Match-Up".

 

[Mega-Spider]

The Mega ditto is the funniest MU ever for me. I mean, projectiles fly everywhere and the stock goes to the one who gets a Charge Shot first because it's transcendent and crosses the opponent's zone
isn't really in our favor, but it isn't THAT bad. A good R.O.B. will cause us trouble, but we can get an edge if we get in close Mid-Range (Thank you based Nair). Mario might be worse since he is fast, has easy combos and safe kill moves with a safe reflector (dat cape).
Meanwhile, Shiek can outcamp us with Needles, combo us for days and can wave inside and outside of our Mid-Range. Her only trouble is killing, but her kill setups are so strong, it nearly nullifies that problem. She deserves her title of "Hardest Match-Up".

A friend of mine said that ditto matches are like rap battles. You're pretty much even until someone can get the finishing blow.

 

[ravemaster47]

Dfw is Dallas Texas area. As for shiek, the only way I've ever been able to beat a decent or good shiek is to play completely slowly.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Yea sheik is def the hardest. Zss isn't as bad because of her teather grab. As mega man you shouldn't spend a ton of time on the ground and it really allows is to put shield pressure on her because she can't shield grab as quickly. I think our top 2 are for sure sheik and pika.