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General ICs Q&A Thread
- Thread starter smaci92
- Start date
Roller
Smash Legend
You can go up really high with sopo cg on snake. ~80 iirc
so I was watching a video of 9B play. at 2:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHp0dnq21I
he does side B and it looks like it helps cancel his momentum. Does this actually help cancel momentum? I know it doesn't work like DK's up B or G&w's bucket, but would it be a good option if you know you are probably gonna die?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHp0dnq21I
he does side B and it looks like it helps cancel his momentum. Does this actually help cancel momentum? I know it doesn't work like DK's up B or G&w's bucket, but would it be a good option if you know you are probably gonna die?
It helps with momentum, but it doesn't literally cancel it.
Think about it. You're being killed toward the left and if you squall, it makes you go towards the right, helping the momentum decrease.
I actually do that a lot.
Think about it. You're being killed toward the left and if you squall, it makes you go towards the right, helping the momentum decrease.
I actually do that a lot.
Well I mean, if you side-b with fox/falco and you were hit to the left it actually makes you go further to the left and up killing you faster. Some moves make it worse and some help, for whatever reason. Haven't tested it with squall.
Roller
Smash Legend
It does help. Same way that MK's drill rush in that situation helps. There's a VGBootcamp vid on it I think.
EDIT: You still uair first tho. then follow it with the immediate sideB
EDIT: You still uair first tho. then follow it with the immediate sideB
2-DJeff
Smash Master
You can sideb cancel like gnw bucket. Hrnut found that out and we tested it.
Attila the Hun
Smash Ace
Do different throws into smashes affect how far they go?
i.e. Is doing an upthrow better than a bthrow when placing someone into an upsmash?
i.e. Is doing an upthrow better than a bthrow when placing someone into an upsmash?
Roller
Smash Legend
It does make a difference, and it depends on the spacing of your characters when you throw/smash. Lux can probably give you more details on it than I could.
Attila the Hun
Smash Ace
I'd assume the spacing relates to whether you're tipping the smash?
I'll wait for Lux, but thanks for the infooo. I should prolly start practicing using other throws just in case.
I'll wait for Lux, but thanks for the infooo. I should prolly start practicing using other throws just in case.
Sieguest
Smash Master
Different throws and the spacing of the climbers while doing that throw will put your opponent at different parts of the hammer when they're hit by the smash. So spacing relates to both the throw and the smash.
Best case is being placed so that the opponent is hit by the hammerhead whenever they are smashed.
Worst case is being placed so that the opponent is hit by the handle of the hammer.
For example (if I remember correctly) Lux would sometimes end CGs with a uthrow->usmash because the placement would guarantee a sweetspot (I'll dig through the thread to make sure a bit later).
Best case is being placed so that the opponent is hit by the hammerhead whenever they are smashed.
Worst case is being placed so that the opponent is hit by the handle of the hammer.
For example (if I remember correctly) Lux would sometimes end CGs with a uthrow->usmash because the placement would guarantee a sweetspot (I'll dig through the thread to make sure a bit later).
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,310
P Fthrow > N Uthrow > P Usmash Guarantees a sweetspot
P Fthrow > N Dthrow > P Charged Fsmash Guarantees a sweetspot
P Bthrow > N Fthrow > P Usmash does not guarantee a sweet spot if you mistime it. If you hit them after the hitbox of Fthrow is out, you'll more than likely sweet spot.
P Bthrow > N Dthrow > P Usmash does not guarantee a sweet spot (and I have documentation of some form of "I've been grabbed super armor" being more common due to this throw, but I haven't figured out the specifics. It might be common to all throws, but I have reason to believe it's more common with this one).
P Late Bthrow > N Bthrow > P Usmash does not guarantee a sweet spot
P Dthrow > N Bthrow > Does not Guarantee sweet spot
P Dthrow > N Dthrow > Will Sweet Spot if you're still within range to hit on spacing
The sweet spot is the head of the hammer.
P Fthrow > N Dthrow > P Charged Fsmash Guarantees a sweetspot
P Bthrow > N Fthrow > P Usmash does not guarantee a sweet spot if you mistime it. If you hit them after the hitbox of Fthrow is out, you'll more than likely sweet spot.
P Bthrow > N Dthrow > P Usmash does not guarantee a sweet spot (and I have documentation of some form of "I've been grabbed super armor" being more common due to this throw, but I haven't figured out the specifics. It might be common to all throws, but I have reason to believe it's more common with this one).
P Late Bthrow > N Bthrow > P Usmash does not guarantee a sweet spot
P Dthrow > N Bthrow > Does not Guarantee sweet spot
P Dthrow > N Dthrow > Will Sweet Spot if you're still within range to hit on spacing
The sweet spot is the head of the hammer.
Attila the Hun
Smash Ace
Thanks a bunch!
I'll keep it in mind.
I'll keep it in mind.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Not sure where to post this so this is safe. I was showing my buddies the fusion glitch and then we screwed around and found some cool stuff out. Not sure if it's known already or not but when I have a little more time I'll fill you guys in on what we found. Pretty cool stuff it entertained us for a few hours.
TheSaintKai
Smash Ace
Really?
I didn't know that at all.
I thought people were like, "FUSION GLITCH WHAT'S THA- oh, look, MK is winning tournaments."
I didn't realize that people cared about it at all.
Sieguest
Smash Master
Yeah, there was some hubbub surrounding it for a while. Lots of people went to figure out what exactly causes fusion to occur, Nana's freefall behavior in fusion, and my favorite... flying chaingrabs.
TheSaintKai
Smash Ace
Did we ever figure out anything substantial?
Actually, I seem to remember there being a thread or post about it.
Roller
Smash Legend
Vex was championing fusion as a legit strategy for a while.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Thread seems like too much work but I'll tell you what we found. As you know it happens when nana is hit by an electric attack and then you squall with popo (like at the same time) there maybe more but we were using Falco and that's not the cool stuff.
As I'm also sure you are aware Nana is bounded by Popo's movement and so everytime Nana is doing something you can freely move her AND popo by walking with popo. If Popo is busy they won't move. This is also pretty common knowledge(at least I knew it before we screwed around with it).
Time for cool stuff. Nana's airborne and grounded states are not necessarily linked with Popo's. We were on several occaisions able to get Nana to be grounded while Popo was aribrone and vice versa. We had situation where I would desynch, have nana do blizzard and pop run forward, then jump and uair with popo and after nana finished the blizzard I could make her Usmash or Fsmash in mid air. There were also times where we got Popo on the ledge, and Nana was standing stuck inside Popo offstage able to do grounded attacks like smashes. A few times I even managed to get Nana on the ledge (or in the animation) while BOTH of us are standing on top of the ledge above it.
Time for the coolest stuff. As you know sometimes Nana will go into an airborne state, and she will try to recover even while you are grounded (forcing this can be pretty hard actually) however its easier to do near the ledge. Regardless once she tries to up-B she will stay in helpless and everytime she gets knocked out she will continue to up B again and stay in helpless. This isn't the cool stuff tho the cool stuff is next.
You guys I'm sure have heard about Fusion creating wormholes that teleport people, and we discovered how to trigger it. If Nana is in the permanent helpless state, footstooling her forces you to teleport to a place usually below them (like offstage or near a ledge). However there is usually only 2 possible exits of the worm hole, one always seemed to remain constant while the other moved with respect to the IC's. So one was like directly below them and then sometimes it would port them to the other side under the ledge (I wondered if its under the place where nana first went helpless).
But wait there's more. The game acts as if the worm hole exits are places WHERE NANA PHYSICALLY is. What I mean by this is you can actually CONTINUE to footstool the worm hole exits and nana will go into tumble animation each time she from the other side of the stage. More so we discovered that you only teleport when nana actually enters tumble state. So if you footstool her and teleport, then jump again and footstool the worm hole, since nana is still in tumble she can't go into tumble again for a few seconds, you won't teleport, then when you footstool again (after she isn't in tumble) she will re enter tumble and you will teleport again.
We were actually having people teleport under the stage (below us) then they would jump toward a ledge and I would follow them from above providing constant footstools for them to recover back to the stage. If we weren't fast enough, nana would leave tumble and they would port back to the middle (because they footstooled her and she went into tumble) with only a few footstools left (since there is a max number of possible footstools before touching the ground).
One more random thing. We tested having them footstool the worm hole exit below them which we raised above the stage by me jumping really high (so the original exit was above stage now and could be footstooled) and they teleported even further down below the stage again as if we were actually on the stage and not really high up. To clarify one of the exits is like 2 bowser heights below the IC's. So we jumped really high so that spot was above the stage but they still ported below the stage even (before they alway appeared 2 bowser heights below).
Also once we had the Falco try and footstool the real Nana and we tried to footstool him, and the result was be BOTH teleported below the stage and died. We couldn't really draw any conclusions to this. But I think alot of my other theories are correct.
Also one more semi interesting thing unrelated. If you grab them with a fused IC's pass them off to Nana, dthrow with Nana and instantly blizzard, nana will freeze in a weird animation that can be canceled with knockback. This sometimes results in her going into helpless.
Whelp that's what I got feel free to put this in a thread if you want (it's longer than I thought it was going to be). Sry for the wall of text.
Actually I am gonna move this to a thread lol.
As I'm also sure you are aware Nana is bounded by Popo's movement and so everytime Nana is doing something you can freely move her AND popo by walking with popo. If Popo is busy they won't move. This is also pretty common knowledge(at least I knew it before we screwed around with it).
Time for cool stuff. Nana's airborne and grounded states are not necessarily linked with Popo's. We were on several occaisions able to get Nana to be grounded while Popo was aribrone and vice versa. We had situation where I would desynch, have nana do blizzard and pop run forward, then jump and uair with popo and after nana finished the blizzard I could make her Usmash or Fsmash in mid air. There were also times where we got Popo on the ledge, and Nana was standing stuck inside Popo offstage able to do grounded attacks like smashes. A few times I even managed to get Nana on the ledge (or in the animation) while BOTH of us are standing on top of the ledge above it.
Time for the coolest stuff. As you know sometimes Nana will go into an airborne state, and she will try to recover even while you are grounded (forcing this can be pretty hard actually) however its easier to do near the ledge. Regardless once she tries to up-B she will stay in helpless and everytime she gets knocked out she will continue to up B again and stay in helpless. This isn't the cool stuff tho the cool stuff is next.
You guys I'm sure have heard about Fusion creating wormholes that teleport people, and we discovered how to trigger it. If Nana is in the permanent helpless state, footstooling her forces you to teleport to a place usually below them (like offstage or near a ledge). However there is usually only 2 possible exits of the worm hole, one always seemed to remain constant while the other moved with respect to the IC's. So one was like directly below them and then sometimes it would port them to the other side under the ledge (I wondered if its under the place where nana first went helpless).
But wait there's more. The game acts as if the worm hole exits are places WHERE NANA PHYSICALLY is. What I mean by this is you can actually CONTINUE to footstool the worm hole exits and nana will go into tumble animation each time she from the other side of the stage. More so we discovered that you only teleport when nana actually enters tumble state. So if you footstool her and teleport, then jump again and footstool the worm hole, since nana is still in tumble she can't go into tumble again for a few seconds, you won't teleport, then when you footstool again (after she isn't in tumble) she will re enter tumble and you will teleport again.
We were actually having people teleport under the stage (below us) then they would jump toward a ledge and I would follow them from above providing constant footstools for them to recover back to the stage. If we weren't fast enough, nana would leave tumble and they would port back to the middle (because they footstooled her and she went into tumble) with only a few footstools left (since there is a max number of possible footstools before touching the ground).
One more random thing. We tested having them footstool the worm hole exit below them which we raised above the stage by me jumping really high (so the original exit was above stage now and could be footstooled) and they teleported even further down below the stage again as if we were actually on the stage and not really high up. To clarify one of the exits is like 2 bowser heights below the IC's. So we jumped really high so that spot was above the stage but they still ported below the stage even (before they alway appeared 2 bowser heights below).
Also once we had the Falco try and footstool the real Nana and we tried to footstool him, and the result was be BOTH teleported below the stage and died. We couldn't really draw any conclusions to this. But I think alot of my other theories are correct.
Also one more semi interesting thing unrelated. If you grab them with a fused IC's pass them off to Nana, dthrow with Nana and instantly blizzard, nana will freeze in a weird animation that can be canceled with knockback. This sometimes results in her going into helpless.
Whelp that's what I got feel free to put this in a thread if you want (it's longer than I thought it was going to be). Sry for the wall of text.
Actually I am gonna move this to a thread lol.
Stealth Raptor
Smash Legend
why does tornado set it off then if its only electric attacks?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Sieguest
Smash Master
Being grabbed also triggers it lol.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Its such a weird glitch because nothing about what was found out was stable. Everything about it was random. How to activate it, warp placement, and Nana's behavior (to an extent). So no one really cared after a while of testing. I feel its just gonna be like the Ice Climbers Freeze glitch in Melee in which its just known to be banned cause everyone knows its dumb.
B0NK
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,282
There's pretty much a soft-ban on the technique lol. I find the easiest way to set it up to test with it is off of grab, preferably longer range grabs like marth, kirby, D3, w/e =P
@Judo: Also the teleports aren't just triggered by footstool, as you saw by jumping towards the ledge or w/e. It's just triggered by jumping into the "wormhole" which is more like a pillar above where ever the game thinks Nana is located below the stage. Nana still tries to sync to you in the helpless state so you can control the pillar essentially. (It's a food product, essentially). (Also amazing help to SoPo's recovery, cause if they jump towards SoPo offstage while nana is drifting towards him, they die or end up under the stage lol xD)
Basically the only way to not teleport is to never jump, or more specifically, into the wormhole pillar nana creates, which you can't see or know exactly where the game thinks nana is under the stage. (not even the IC's player can really know)
tl;dr Fusion isn't that complicated to understand, it's just dumb and broken.
EDIT: Let me clarify that tl;dr lol. It's hard to understand why is works, it's easy to observe what causes you to be fused (Tornado, Laser, Jolts, Any Grab), and what causes you to teleport (Jumps), and even where you will teleport.
@Judo: Also the teleports aren't just triggered by footstool, as you saw by jumping towards the ledge or w/e. It's just triggered by jumping into the "wormhole" which is more like a pillar above where ever the game thinks Nana is located below the stage. Nana still tries to sync to you in the helpless state so you can control the pillar essentially. (It's a food product, essentially). (Also amazing help to SoPo's recovery, cause if they jump towards SoPo offstage while nana is drifting towards him, they die or end up under the stage lol xD)
Basically the only way to not teleport is to never jump, or more specifically, into the wormhole pillar nana creates, which you can't see or know exactly where the game thinks nana is under the stage. (not even the IC's player can really know)
tl;dr Fusion isn't that complicated to understand, it's just dumb and broken.
EDIT: Let me clarify that tl;dr lol. It's hard to understand why is works, it's easy to observe what causes you to be fused (Tornado, Laser, Jolts, Any Grab), and what causes you to teleport (Jumps), and even where you will teleport.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,310
Well I mean, if you have good footstool timing/spacing on every character it's possible to hobble.
I was just under the impression that the point of hobbling was to be idiot proof/easy so you could just repeatedly tap jump until you footstool and then repeatedly tab IB until you IB.
ZSS, Snake, and Bowser definitely have weird/stricter timings or spacing. Smoom said Fox does as well although I haven't tested it since I don't like hobbling in general lol
I was just under the impression that the point of hobbling was to be idiot proof/easy so you could just repeatedly tap jump until you footstool and then repeatedly tab IB until you IB.
ZSS, Snake, and Bowser definitely have weird/stricter timings or spacing. Smoom said Fox does as well although I haven't tested it since I don't like hobbling in general lol