General ICs Q&A Thread

[r3d d09]

Yeah, i never had that big of a problem with marth on FD

 

[Hylian]

I didn't say marth wins lol

Edit: I just think he does as well as he does against ics on any other stage.

 

[Zync]

LOL i was thinking on hanging out on these boards since ive used ice climbers for a long time as a third character, just today i realized i should get them serious for tourneys and since I main wolf, who gets grab ***** many people try to CP me in FD, so ill just have these guys and backfire their whole strategy? lol

Mainly, how good are the ICs vs King dedede?

 

[TheSaintKai]

LOL i was thinking on hanging out on these boards since ive used ice climbers for a long time as a third character, just today i realized i should get them serious for tourneys and since I main wolf, who gets grab ***** many people try to CP me in FD, so ill just have these guys and backfire their whole strategy? lol

Mainly, how good are the ICs vs King dedede?

Let's clear this up:
If you're going to get your ICs tourney ready, you should be able to CG DDD proficiently.
There is a lack of that going on with newer ICs, so assuming you've done that...

ICs beat D3 65:35, or a +3 according to the new match up chart.
Pros:
D3 can't (shouldn't be able to) CG the ICs without being hit.
ICs have the recovery tools to make it back around his edgeguarding.
Many of D3's attacks can be simply shield grabbed, and if not that, then power shield grabbed. This is fairly self-explanatory.
D3 has a hard time separating the ICs. This is mainly due to the fact that his main move for separation is grabbing them, which can be punished easily. Most people who rely heavily on a grab game lose against the Ice Climbers because of the innate danger in getting that close to them grounded.
SoPo can solo CG him to a ridiculous percent, AFAIK. Like 70, properly buffered and everything. I'll check on this though.

EDIT: SoPo can apparently solo CG him with proper buffering to 103.
Daaaaammmnnnn.


Cons:
If you lose your head when (IF) D3 DOES separate you...
at worst: Nana eats a f-smash and dies at 40, then he proceeds to edgehog SoPo.
at best: you both eat a LOT of damage because he has such ridiculous range on his moves that he can sit between the two of you and keep you apart.
Longer time CGing because he's so heavy and falls so fast, you have to get him to like 130 to kill him.

Someone tell me if I'm blatantly wrong.

 

[Zync]

hahahah that sounds so awesome, since wolf has 80:20 against D3, Well asuming i know how to Bthrow-Dthrow with dash infinite on heavies, and i can do the Fthrow to Footstool Ice lock on fatties i should be fine right?


Also, now you say SoPo can do that? WTF i assume thats ending with a Fsmash, or Usmash? The matchup has to be worse than 35:65

 

[TheSaintKai]

hahahah that sounds so awesome, since wolf has 80:20 against D3, Well asuming i know how to Bthrow-Dthrow with dash infinite on heavies, and i can do the Fthrow to Footstool Ice lock on fatties i should be fine right?


Also, now you say SoPo can do that? WTF i assume thats ending with a Fsmash, or Usmash? The matchup has to be worse than 35:65

The problem is that you run out of room.
xD You can only CG to the edge of the stage, so you'll get a good 40 percent on him, at most. Think of it like D3's CG.
I'm not sure it ends with F-smash past about 85, but you could test it. Just CG him to the edge, make sure the d-throw is staled, and have your friend mash the jump button while you spam f-smash.

Honestly, I've never seen him CG'd that high by SoPo. O.O

But, if you can do the B-throw -> D-throw on heavies, don't use the Footstool Ice lock. It's easily SDI'd, and can be mashed out at lower percents.

 

[Zync]

The problem is that you run out of room.
xD You can only CG to the edge of the stage, so you'll get a good 40 percent on him, at most. Think of it like D3's CG.
I'm not sure it ends with F-smash past about 85, but you could test it. Just CG him to the edge, make sure the d-throw is staled, and have your friend mash the jump button while you spam f-smash.

Honestly, I've never seen him CG'd that high by SoPo. O.O

But, if you can do the B-throw -> D-throw on heavies, don't use the Footstool Ice lock. It's easily SDI'd, and can be mashed out at lower percents.

True, also, i read before you can do a walking chaingrab? How hard are the inputs for these? A walking SoPo Chaingrab seems deadly lol, its like what king dedede does to wolf Hmmmm Payback time

 

[Sieguest]

The inputs aren't hard, just precise. You can do most alternating throw CGs in place. The walking SoPo dthrow CG just requires you to be precise, if you're too slow the opponent will jump away.

 

[Blissard]

I usually just Fthrow chain till the ledge, then Bthrow and continue Fthrowing. Sometimes I'll Dthrow>Fair x3 then Fsmash (opponent can tech spike if the fair hits and they're at least 25% though) if they're at 0%, but usually only when I'm not sure of the timing for a CG.

I didn't know it was possible to SoPo Snake that high either >_>

 

[Hylian]

Sopo cg on DDD at high %'s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ypMVE47r4&t=2m58s

 

[Attila_]

here's a question.

can you slip just be walking, or is it restricted to pivoting/dashing? if this is the case, then alternating grabs should only be done to turn around at a ledge (or on a platform)...

 

[Hylian]

here's a question.

can you slip just be walking, or is it restricted to pivoting/dashing? if this is the case, then alternating grabs should only be done to turn around at a ledge (or on a platform)...

You can only trip out of a dash. You can soft throw the bthrow to not trip, and you can also do walking dthrows not to trip.

 

[Attila_]

then why do people not throw like this more often?

 

[Zync]

I think its easier, at least for me, to do a dash grab, it makes throwing heavies more easily since u need to wait sometime before regrabing

 

[Sieguest]

then why do people not throw like this more often?

I throw like that. The big gripe I've gotten from most ICs I've talked to is that it lacks consistency. As in "I can get a pivot regrab on all the characters in the roster whereas I can't can't softturn regrab every character on the roster". I can understand that too, sometimes the less thinking you have to do the better.

I think its easier, at least for me, to do a dash grab, it makes throwing heavies more easily since u need to wait sometime before regrabing

In my own experience I find it easier to softturn heavies. I actually get a softturned bthrow on all the characters down to about Meta-Knight.

 

[Attila_]

walking dthrow is pretty standard on most (all?) of the cast. you only need to turn at the end. even if you dont do it softly, thats still only one chance to trip out of 7+ grabs.

sounds like a bonus to me.

 

[Reyney]

how do i charge fsmash with nana and regrab with popo after a bthrow hobble?
i can bthrow hobble, and charge fsmash with nana, but popo will just roll when i try to walk closer to my opponent.
i tried cstick+z and controlstick+a to charge. help?

*edit
nvm figured it out

 

[YUNq PHR3$H]

Okay I Need To Know How To Get Into The Up-Tilt Combos.
I Understand That Side-B's Last Hit Sends The Person Upward.
But How Do I Read Where The Opponent Drops At?
And What Else Is Good Ways To Pop The Opponent In The Air?
In Addition, When Is The Matchup's Going To Get Updated?

 

[Roller]

In Addition, When Is The Matchup's Going To Get Updated?

This man..

Still hoping the 2 year old outdated matchups will be re-done.




The answer is they wont. btw.

 

[r3d d09]

yeah, we just talk about the matchups from time to time in general discussion. Theory craft as well is usually accurate, unless you're just dumb at theory crafting

Experience > reading a matchup discussion.

Read the board for the specific character that you want to play against, they'll have a write up on us. then take that into consideration. GL

 

[Reyney]

1.does move staleness affect the cg timing?
i like to practice cg's in training mode.. now im wondering if i made a huge mistake xD

2. why does almost everyone setup their cg's with double dthrow instead of dthrow>fthrow?
is it just because they are more comfortable with it or is there a reason behind it?

 

[Abel1994]

I can never perfect the chaingrab >.<

 

[Sieguest]

1.does move staleness affect the cg timing?
i like to practice cg's in training mode.. now im wondering if i made a huge mistake xD

Yes staleness affects CG timing. As a move becomes more stale there is less knockback to it so there is a smidget more leeway. The only problem is that this would only be true if the percent stayed constant. Staleness is countered by rising percentage on every throw. I'm sure there is a point where the KB induced at a certain percentage starts to increase instead decrease after factoring stale. May need to look into that at some point.

2. why does almost everyone setup their cg's with double dthrow instead of dthrow>fthrow?
is it just because they are more comfortable with it or is there a reason behind it?

There are more frames for space correction when using dthrow, so it's a lot more convenient to use when setting up your alt throw pattern than most other starts.

I can never perfect the chaingrab >.<

Practice, that's all I can tell you.

 

[Abel1994]

yea but how its diffrent every % n stuff

 

[Zync]

I dont know i dont feel there is a difference in %, i can chaingrab like MK to 140% with luck lol, the only thing that gets harder is the accuracy, since higher damage means less space for inputing the grabs

 

[Sieguest]

I dont know i dont feel there is a difference in %, i can chaingrab like MK to 140% with luck lol, the only thing that gets harder is the accuracy, since higher damage means less space for inputing the grabs

Well, my explanation was pretty vague in what I was driving at, but since you posted this I'll go ahead and explain.

As the CG progresses a timing shift is present as well as having to keep up with spacing. There is a point at which the timing shift becomes negligible, leaving only spacing as a factor in the CG. The best example I can come up with is using Bowser, since his hurtbox is so huge. At lower percents there is relatively a lot more leniency than at higher percents the difference in the lower and higher percent tier is timing. That lower->higher barrier is at a point where no matter what percent the opponent is at, you only have 1 frame to regrab them in.

To be brief, there is a timing shift to a point, at this point timing becomes irrelevant and it is now solely spacing one must worry about.

 

[Zync]

Is a good way to practice chaingrab timing to go on training mode and put 999% damage on the cpu? I can always Bthrow to grab with light characters but with Dthrow i havnt been able to get a single grab, trying diferent timings and stuff

 

[Sieguest]

Is a good way to practice chaingrab timing to go on training mode and put 999% damage on the cpu? I can always Bthrow to grab with light characters but with Dthrow i havnt been able to get a single grab, trying diferent timings and stuff

You could practice on 300%, 500% or 999%
There's no difference between them. (Because at that point the difference between the frame a grab is successful and the frame it isn't successful is only one frame.)

 

[Smoom77]

How Do You Wavedash?

 

[Sieguest]

How Do You Wavedash?

I'm sorry, but I believe you have come to the wrong Ice Climbers board. This is Brawl Ice Climbers board. If you wish for your question to be answered with a quality response then please post your question in the Melee Ice Climbers board, which can be found here.

Good luck!

Spoiler

 

[Smoom77]

 

[TheSaintKai]

You could practice on 300%, 500% or 999%
There's no difference between them. (Because at that point the difference between the frame a grab is successful and the frame it isn't successful is only one frame.)

Are you sure about this? O.o
I've tried chaingrabbing MK to ridiculous percentages in training mode.

I could ALWAYS get a b-throw regrab, but past...oh...450% or so, (estimate, this was about two months ago) I could no longer get a CONSISTENT d-throw regrab. This led me to believe that the frame difference was getting slimmer.
The highest percentage I could get one was 720%, I *THINK*. I'm by no means a perfect ICs player, but I tried 726% (I went up in 6% increments) repeatedly, with no regrab.
I'm PROBABLY wrong, but are you sure we have a frame for the regrab at that high of KB from d-throw?

 

[Sieguest]

Are you sure about this? O.o
I've tried chaingrabbing MK to ridiculous percentages in training mode.

I'm positive.

I could ALWAYS get a b-throw regrab, but past...oh...450% or so, (estimate, this was about two months ago) I could no longer get a CONSISTENT d-throw regrab. This led me to believe that the frame difference was getting slimmer.
The highest percentage I could get one was 720%, I *THINK*. I'm by no means a perfect ICs player, but I tried 726% (I went up in 6% increments) repeatedly, with no regrab.
I'm PROBABLY wrong, but are you sure we have a frame for the regrab at that high of KB from d-throw?

I posted an explanation earlier explaining it.

As the CG progresses a timing shift is present as well as having to keep up with spacing. There is a point at which the timing shift becomes negligible, leaving only spacing as a factor in the CG. The best example I can come up with is using Bowser, since his hurtbox is so huge. At lower percents there is relatively a lot more leniency than at higher percents the difference in the lower and higher percent tier is timing. That lower->higher barrier is at a point where no matter what percent the opponent is at, you only have 1 frame to regrab them in.

At this point I've no idea when exactly the frame differential between successful regrab and unsuccessful regrab becomes 1, but once I get hacks/learn some other stuff I can test it. Or just pester someone else with frame advance or something to do it for me.

With that said, I'm very sure that any changes past 300% are not timing changes, but strictly spacing changes.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

how do i get better at the game?

 

[Sieguest]

Read, practice, play other players, get *****, key in on your mistakes, ask for advice. Repeat.

The way you get better at anything is the same not only in smash, but in life. Information, practice and experience.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Any quick tips for for fighting yoshi?

 

[Sieguest]

1. IBs, use them.
2. About midrange is where you are best suited for dealing with Yoshi (this is my opinion, don't quote me on it) You can adjust to what he does provided you're good at pressuring opponents.
3. APPLY THE PRESSURE (You're ICs, get to it )
4. If he's pulling bairs, then pivot grab him, but don't get baited. (never thought I'd say that)

That's what I can think of off of the top of my head.

 

[Roller]

**** Yoshi.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

K thanks! I don't pivot grab much is that like a heavy nut mistake from me? Lol

 

[Roller]

It is all I do. I'm not kidding. On any character that doesn't have a sword it beats an absurd number of approaches. Some characters have virtually no move that can't be pivot grabbed.