General ICs Q&A Thread

[Rubberbandman]

That sounds like a problem, not a question.

 

[00-Zero]

whenver i try to Dash dance i end up never turning around. if i try to hold it down for a fracion of a second longer then i dont turn fast enough back and forth.

I learned how to dash dance by playing someone that would do it back and forth for a period of time whenever he was able to take a stock and just trying to recreate it.
Practice getting used to moving your control stick back and forth over and over in a straight line and the timing will just come naturally.

 

[Xcallion]

I learned how to dash dance by playing someone that would do it back and forth for a period of time whenever he was able to take a stock and just trying to recreate it.
Practice getting used to moving your control stick back and forth over and over in a straight line and the timing will just come naturally.

Thanks. I dont have many people to play w/ but i suppose that dashdancing will come eventually.

 

[BadKarma]

do you guys think it would be better to learn to cg heavies with a cg that stays in a small area? like b throw to d throw, or b throw to f throw?

or just stick with the easier d throw f throw across the stage/ hobble?

 

[Rubberbandman]

Yes, because if you grab them while on a platform and don't have a cg for them, what are you gonna do? sit there and look pretty?

Learn standing CG for ALL characters not just some.

 

[V]

Who's tougher for the ICs between MK and Marth?

 

[B0NK]

M k

 

[Smasher89]

Look at the frame data XD, MK

But alot of MKs attacks starts at frame 3, which means he should be one of the easier characters to get a good timing when it comes to powershielding =)

 

[DeLux]

Given that Nana has a 5 frame delay from Popo and 3 frames is below the 13 frames for average human reaction time, I would have to disagree

 

[Rubberbandman]

The back hit of his Dsmash is like 16 frames, I've ps'd it many times. Nado is pretty easy as well. You just gotta know what going to come out before it does, aka predict.

 

[DeLux]

Aka reading or guessing. I agree that for the most part it's about prediction. However I was disagreeing with the method of which he came up with the justifying why MK is "one of the easier characters to get a good timing when it comes to powershielding" (Smasher89).

However, to respond to your line of thought, given that MK probably has the most "safe" moves against us of any character, he is arguably harder to read/predict because of additional options to weigh through. Some characters have only a few or even one option that's grab safe, making it easier to predict when to shield to PS. Therefore, he's harder to PS than most characters.

Think of it this way. As a closed variable experiment, I will let a subject know exactly when I am initiating a move so you know that it's coming. However, I don't tell the subject which moves is coming. If we repeat the scenario over and over the more added moves with different timings will make power shielding harder to predict and therefore time.

 

[Sieguest]

That's just it Lux. A lot of MK's safer moves come out in three frames (I don't quite agree with that number, but I'll just go with it). So say you have Y amount of grab safe moves and X amount of these moves come out on frame 3. We'll say that X/Y= 11/16

Out of the hypothetical 16 different attacks you can use. 11 of them come out on frame 3. So generally if you're predicting your opponent, the majority of the time, you'll PS it which is why generally he's easier to PS if you predict an attack.

 

[DeLux]

First, Guest I love you. But:

Most of those moves aren't grab safe, so they skew the results on a functional level. So using it as a ratio out of 16 of hypothetical moves would be incorrect. You yourself hinted that you know this by saying "have Y amount of grab safe moves" (Guest Snowflake =] ). The same should be done with MOST other characters, and because of DSG you can safely not worry about the PS timing because they will get grabbed on the non grabsafe moves. Back to the other topic, it's hard to find another character with MORE grab safe options. Based on my testing, very few characters have more than two, but that's really predicated that my testing is the standard. Admittedly it isn't. But when going over the DSG theory, I tested every character and how they stood in terms of grab safe moves. In this specific case, Metaknight has so many more than other characters, it isn't even close. (PS: I Feel like it's five moves. None of them have frame 3 on their hit box, and they are all different lol). That being said, you can still calculate percents of random correct guessing the move, it would just be 1/5 for MK, compared to 1/2 or 1/3 for most other characters. Reading shifts it from pure guessing to predicting, but percentage wise, it's an uphill battle from the get go while most other characters it's a downhill cruise.


Options I've seen in tourney that aren't three frames:
Dair - Frame 4
Dsmash - Frame 5
Grab - Frame 6
Shuttle Loop - Frame 8, invincible on frame 5 if grounded
Not to mention that Mach Tornado is dependent on spacing and not frames because of it's move baiting properties. Grabbable? Yes. Powershieldable? Yes. Another option functionally? Seems to work in a lot, to the point that there was a thread dedicated to beating this move.

That doesn't mention spot dodge and other shenanigans. It's a huge reason why we would go AT BEST even or at a disadvantage in the match up. It's really a huge match up where we have to outread our opponent and not rely on gimmicks to get to that victory

 

[Teh Future]

lol no we rely on gimmicks every matchup >_>

i have way more trouble w/ marth than with mk, maybe its personal thing but seems like once marth gets stage control way worse than mk. He CAN stay safe and not get grabbed, marth players just dumb.

and LOL like none of mks attacks come out on frame 3 you guys are ********

 

[Teh Future]

mk has hardly any safe attacks against ics btw.

or any character really -_-

 

[DeLux]

Weird, I friendlied mhazey a few times in Denver with no previous marth exp and didn't do too badly once I figured out what was going on. But he didn't scream at me so he was probably sandbagging.

Agreed. The only safe move is glide. Not glide attack. Glide. It's broken.

 

[Fluttershy]

I'm not sure if this is old because i could not find this in the guide (and i never played any ICs). When i play as ICs i sometimes grab the opponent while i am near (and facing) the edge and have Nana jump and use Fair to spike the opponent.

 

[Rubberbandman]

One of the oldest trick in the book my good sir. Watch some vids of people sometime, some people still use it but it can be SDI'd back to the stage.

 

[Sieguest]

First, Guest I love you. But:

Most of those moves aren't grab safe, so they skew the results on a functional level. So using it as a ratio out of 16 of hypothetical moves would be incorrect. You yourself hinted that you know this by saying "have Y amount of grab safe moves" (Guest Snowflake =] ). The same should be done with MOST other characters, and because of DSG you can safely not worry about the PS timing because they will get grabbed on the non grabsafe moves. Back to the other topic, it's hard to find another character with MORE grab safe options. Based on my testing, very few characters have more than two, but that's really predicated that my testing is the standard. Admittedly it isn't. But when going over the DSG theory, I tested every character and how they stood in terms of grab safe moves. In this specific case, Metaknight has so many more than other characters, it isn't even close. (PS: I Feel like it's five moves. None of them have frame 3 on their hit box, and they are all different lol). That being said, you can still calculate percents of random correct guessing the move, it would just be 1/5 for MK, compared to 1/2 or 1/3 for most other characters. Reading shifts it from pure guessing to predicting, but percentage wise, it's an uphill battle from the get go while most other characters it's a downhill cruise.


Options I've seen in tourney that aren't three frames:
Dair - Frame 4
Dsmash - Frame 5
Grab - Frame 6
Shuttle Loop - Frame 8, invincible on frame 5 if grounded
Not to mention that Mach Tornado is dependent on spacing and not frames because of it's move baiting properties. Grabbable? Yes. Powershieldable? Yes. Another option functionally? Seems to work in a lot, to the point that there was a thread dedicated to beating this move.

That doesn't mention spot dodge and other shenanigans. It's a huge reason why we would go AT BEST even or at a disadvantage in the match up. It's really a huge match up where we have to outread our opponent and not rely on gimmicks to get to that victory

Exactly why I used a hypothetical, and defined the variables as I did. My post works under the assumption that the below quote is accurate:

Look at the frame data XD, MK

But alot of MKs attacks starts at frame 3, which means he should be one of the easier characters to get a good timing when it comes to powershielding =)

Mostly because I was attempting to clarify the train of logic being used here. The general idea in the post itself isn't totally wrong (which is what my previous post was showing). The problem is just as you've shown, the information is inaccurate so this idea isn't really applicable to the specific situation being discussed (I even said earlier that I don't agree that a lot of his moves come out on frame 3, but that I was just going to roll with it).

*brofists Lux*

 

[Rubberbandman]

His fastest attack to come out is Nair, I think; And its frame 3. Also Dtilt is Frame 3 so yeah....

Edit: Ftilt's first hit comes out frame 3 as well.

 

[Fluttershy]

One of the oldest trick in the book my good sir. Watch some vids of people sometime, some people still use it but it can be SDI'd back to the stage.

ok i wasn't sure. and i never watched an ICs videos before

 

[Odinyte]

What is a good aerial attack when someone is underneath you? Be it slightly to the either side of below you, or directly. If you do the d-air it makes you pretty vunerable if they block it. Or is it best to just avoid attacking them? Their air moves just seem really bad to me, which the exception of u-air.

 

[Sieguest]

Your best bet is just to try and avoid them until your reach the ground. If you can fake them out as to where you are headed then that's good. Sometimes I FFbair if they're a little to the side, but that depends on the character you're facing.

 

[DeLux]

If they are below you, this is usually a serious problem and you want to get away. Retreating Bair and Retreating Fair are usually the best aerials, but I've noticed that Dair WILL work on occasion because nobody expects anyone to use it ever. Squall makes you fall faster than fastfall. You just gotta use them mixups, but in my experience you are usually doing everything you can to get back to the ground rather than attacking from above.

 

[Today]

Heyo, Icies!

I have a few question!

One: Is there a specific way to hold the controller for CGing?

Two: Is there a nice video on CGing?

Three: May I ask which may be the best way to desync? Is it the pivot ice block one? If so, should I do that all the time or if I die should I do a different one?

Four: Are there any specific controls for CGing?

Five: Does Snake still wreck Icies?

Six: What is the best advice you can give to a beginner Icies?

Thank you so much! I really appreciate it! Sorry for all the questions! But I'm sure any answer would be helpful!

 

[Rubberbandman]

Heyo, Icies!

I have a few question!

One: Is there a specific way to hold the controller for CGing?

Two: Is there a nice video on CGing?

Three: May I ask which may be the best way to desync? Is it the pivot ice block one? If so, should I do that all the time or if I die should I do a different one?

Four: Are there any specific controls for CGing?

Five: Does Snake still wreck Icies?

Six: What is the best advice you can give to a beginner Icies?

Thank you so much! I really appreciate it! Sorry for all the questions! But I'm sure any answer would be helpful!

One: No, hold the controller however you usually do.

Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juS9dgfNKxw
That's the best video available, if you need any others just ask me on AIM when I get home.

Three: There is no "best" way to desynch, some work better in certain situations, others are harder, but faster. The most basic and "all-around desynch is dash dance desynch.

Four: No. use what you're comfortable with, I still use default controls.

Five: Its even or at the most slightly in Snake's favor. You asked this last time you came by.

Six: Learn the basics, then learn CGs at your own pace; Its a rough road using them in the first place, so don't get disgruntled if you don't do so hot in the beginning.

Hope that helps. And since you're around can you tell me what causes G&W to automatically use Chef? (i.e. He doesn't stop using it until its completely finished.)

 

[B0NK]

Five: Its even or at the most slightly in Snake's favor. You asked this last time you came by.

I'm just going to add that this point is very much debatable.

But it is true that IC's don't get wrecked by snake like they did in 08. =P

 

[Today]

Thanks, Bandy! o';

Oh! The way to stop auto Chef is to just press the b button again and it should stop.

 

[Rubberbandman]

I'm just going to add that this point is very much debatable.

But it is true that IC's don't get wrecked by snake like they did in 08. =P

All MUs are debatable, but we can agree it is much better than it used to be.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Basic question: Are there "staple" desynchs that ICs generally use other than the Dash Dance one. It seems to be the only one that I use consistently. [

 

[Rubberbandman]

Pivot, SND, Squall, etc.

 

[ch33s3]

Basic question: Are there "staple" desynchs that ICs generally use other than the Dash Dance one. It seems to be the only one that I use consistently. [

Entirely preference, I almost exclusively use pivot from "neutral" but I often use dash dance derivatives, landing lag, and platform cancels. Defensively, I like dash derivatives (especially shield drop to pivot) running off platforms to desynch or using hitstun, and offensively I use squall, and hitstun extensively.

Those are my "staples". I use other situationally, of course. I really suggest you take some time and work on just moving around and taking note of all the opportunities to desynch and what you can do, for example, if you notice nana is lagging behind you a bit on a dash, you can buffer a special to desynch (GREAT both defensively and offensively!).

Just play with stuff.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^Thank you that helps a LOT. Guess I have a lot of work ahead of myself.

 

[GimR]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290320

 

[DeLux]

Alright, I'm going to work on a project that involves chaingrabbing to a greater extent. I was originally hoping to get this done prior to MLG because I'm convinced it will help solve the Laggy TV problems, but I've been busy. My bad.

(For those of you who don't know, the project is converting frame data for chaingrabbing into sounds to listen to as you practice/play)

But to help me get through this project, I have a question on how most of you chaingrab. I.e.


Which version of alternating grabs do you use the most?

Answers I'm looking for to help decide the order I tackle all of this need to be detailed.

Examples:

I use for the most part a hard turn back throw to buffer down throw CG

EA does a nonbuffered Fthrow only

Someone else might do a Soft turn back throw to buffer fthrow.


Specifically on the bthrow, it's helpful to know if you guys soft or hard turn it. So most likely, whatever one is the most popular is the one I'll work on first. And since it seems to be the largest problem overall for us, I'll make the Snake sound first.

 

[B0NK]

Light Weights: Hard Back Throw to Down Throw

Some Mid weights: Non-buffered forward throw to hard back throw

Mid to heavy Weights: Nonbuffered forward throw X2 to back throw hobble

 

[Teh Future]

by soft throw you mean the one where nana dash away from you? cause i never use that it seems inconsistent and bad lol

i use:

light: dthrow>dthrow & dthrow>dthrow

mid: dthrow>fthrow & dthrow>fthrow

heavy: dthrow> fthrow > turn around with bthrow > f/dthrow

 

[DeLux]

by soft throw you mean the one where nana dash away from you? cause i never use that it seems inconsistent and bad lol

i use:

light: dthrow>dthrow & dthrow>dthrow

mid: dthrow>fthrow & dthrow>fthrow

heavy: dthrow> fthrow > turn around with bthrow > f/dthrow

On a popo to nana bthrow transfer, there are two ways to input a nana turn around to regrab.

The first and most commonly used is the hard turn. It is a manual input by the player that causes nana to pivot or dash grab because of a DI input.

A soft turn, however, relies on the sync mechanics that forces nana to face the same direction as popo. So on a soft turn bthrow transfer, a player will input a bthrow, neutral the control stick, wait for nana to turn around, and then initiate a standing grab with nana to regrab. It's the tripless bthrow chaingrab.

 

[ch33s3]

I use too wide of a variety of grabs to say anything specific. I do something different for every character.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Well, tell the majority.

Too Light (Jiggs): Bthrow Fthrow, hope for the best
Lights(Weight >= Marth) : Bthrow Dthrow (buffered as fast as possible)
Mids(Weight < Marth < Link, does not include shiek) : (Dthrow Fthrow) -> Bthrow Fthrow
Heavies(Weight <= Link): On platform, Bthrow Fthrow, not on platform, Dthrow Fthrow.