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General ICs Q&A Thread

Smoom77

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,873
Location
Provo, UT
Jiggs: Bthrow Bthrow
Light: Bthrow fthrow/dthrow
Midweight: Bthrow fthrow
Semi heavy (Ike link yoshi people like those): Bthrow dthrow
Heavy: Bthrow dthrow
Heaviest: (deserved it's own line): Bthrow smash hobble+buffered dthrow+buffered dthrow repeat.

Does that last one make sense? We've talked about it before.
 

Roller

Smash Legend
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
13,137
Location
Just follow the grime...
lightweights: Dthrow-> Fthrow (for first throws if caught at 0) then Bthrow->Dthrow
midweights: b-throw-> dthrow or bthrow-> fthrow depending on char.
Heavies: extremely dependant on char. I often mix up throws depending on situation. Sometimes hobbling/smash hobbling.

I honestly don't understand the difficulty with ness/lucas. Maybe it's just the fact that I play a Ness fairly regularly, which caused me to practice it a bit. But I don't find it to be very odd timing..

And on jiggs I do bthrow to dthrow, I usually screw up the first few, then do it fine.
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Joined
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Messages
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NNID
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I only use 6 different timings on my chain grabs which makes it much easier

light weights(MK, Olimar, ZSS, G&W, Kirby, Shiek, Zelda Marth, Peach, fox, falco)

<50%(This chain grab is done at low percent so your opponent doesn't break out)


Popo: Instantly D-throw
Nana: Have her dash grab and then D-throw
Popo: Dash grab using Z(make sure Z is held down until Nana shields)
Release Z(So Nana Releases her shield)
Move onto the chain grab below(No matter what percent your opponent is at)

50%>

  1. Popo: B-throw(press grab almost immediately after pressing back)
  2. Nana: D-throw( as soon as Nana starts to D-throw Use visual cues in order to grab with Popo, press grab as soon as you see your opponent hit the floor, do not let yourself predict the timing, only do it on reaction)
  3. Popo: Regrab using Z, (make sure Z is held down until Nana shields)
  4. Release Z(So Nana Releases her Shield)
  5. Loop Steps 1 through 4



PS: Jiggs, Pikachu, and squirtle all go under the same chain grabs except timing the b-throw is a little faster)


Medium Weights(Lucario, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, toon Link, Ness, Lucas, sonic, Ivy Saur, Pit, Popo, )


<50%(This chain grab is done at low percent so your opponent doesn't break out)


Popo: Instantly D-throw
Nana: Have her dash grab and then D-throw
Popo: Dash grab using Z(make sure Z is held down until Nana shields)
Release Z(So Nana Releases her shield)
Move onto the chain grab below(No matter what percent your opponent is at)


50%-->65%

  1. Popo: B-throw(press grab a split second after pressing back, the timing is a little slower on medium weights then it is on light weights)
  2. Nana: D-throw( as soon as Nana starts to D-throw Use visual cues in order to grab with Popo, press grab as soon as you see your opponent hit the floor, do not let yourself predict the timing, only do it on reaction)
  3. Popo: Regrab using Z, (make sure Z is held down until Nana shields)
  4. Release Z(So Nana Releases her Shield)
  5. Loop Steps 1 through 4




65%>

  1. Popo: B-throw(press grab a split second after pressing back, the timing is a little slower on medium weights then it is on light weights)
  2. Nana: Buffered F-throw( Try to press grab at the exact same time Nana hit them with her hammer)
  3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 over and over until your opponent is in kill range


Heavy Weights(D3, falcon, Snake, Wario, Bowser, DK, Samus, Ike, Charizard, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Wolf?, ROB)


At Any percent

  1. Popo: Buffered D-throw
  2. Nana: F-throw
  3. IF you get to the edge: B-throw foot stool to Iceblock
  4. Rinse and repeat steps 1 and 2 until step 3 occurs
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
4,503
Location
Dexters Laboratory
Don't drop your CGs :) That's why you lost.

Video thread.
its answers like this that not only make you look stupid, but also stop your characters metagame from going anyplace

LOL, when i posted a vid of me going last hit w/ dabuz w/ my ****ty ics all i got was the same answer, dont drop your grabs.

OBVIOUSLY, you arent supposed to drop your grabs. a 2 year old, with the sense of a bean could understand the common sense in that, instead of pointing out obvious things, why not ummm... you know, look indef into the matchup and see GAMEPLAY errors.

you are human beings. as players. you obviously should strive to be the best and to not make technical errors ever, HOWEVER they do happen. the best players, even m2k will make a small technical error, and telling someone that doesnt help them AT ALL. if a real ice climber main doesnt want to put in 2 seconds for a fellow char main, i will point out the knowledge that i know when i can but its answers like this that make me just upset with the brawl community. its so pathetic, you gave no other advice
 

Rubberbandman

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
2,264
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知らない
I really wont have much to say seeing as I suck at the match up.

But from what I see, you put on the pressure of putting him in shield, but didnt try to follow it up with standing or pivot grab. They belay was completely random and useless. I still believe belay isnt going to help at all in the MK MU unless its to anti rufio. You didnt desynch enough at the right times, it was more of you just ******* around waiting for him to come to you with no real for for an approach at some points. It looks like you have good squall control, so use squall desynch if you have a chance.

So basic run down:

- You looks to specialize better in spacing squall right, use that at better opportune moments to either desynch while fending off enemies or just whenever you need it :)
- You used Fsmash waaay too much. Cool it with that, try Dtilt and Ftilt more. Dsmash is better at fending off opponents better anyway, it stops random rolls.
- You didn't spaced up air correctly. I saw alot of times where you incurred landing lag from it. Never let me see that.

Thats about it. So stop *****ing orion so I can fap in peace.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
its answers like this that not only make you look stupid, but also stop your characters metagame from going anyplace

LOL, when i posted a vid of me going last hit w/ dabuz w/ my ****ty ics all i got was the same answer, dont drop your grabs.

OBVIOUSLY, you arent supposed to drop your grabs. a 2 year old, with the sense of a bean could understand the common sense in that, instead of pointing out obvious things, why not ummm... you know, look indef into the matchup and see GAMEPLAY errors.

you are human beings. as players. you obviously should strive to be the best and to not make technical errors ever, HOWEVER they do happen. the best players, even m2k will make a small technical error, and telling someone that doesnt help them AT ALL. if a real ice climber main doesnt want to put in 2 seconds for a fellow char main, i will point out the knowledge that i know when i can but its answers like this that make me just upset with the brawl community. its so pathetic, you gave no other advice
Alright, I'll try to respond to this as simply as I can. To be clear, I stand by my advice in the original post. I meant it sincerely, and I still think it holds true.

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail with something like, "I actually think you played the match up beautifully and wouldn't really change anything you're doing. You played out of a position of control in terms of matchup flow until you dropped your grabs, which was ultimately your undoing." I'll be the FIRST person to tell you that CGs are hard. If you don't believe me, read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290559

Believe it or not, that's what I thought as I watched it. I'm not going to nitpick over tiny things that I would do differently because

A. I do agree, people are human so they do make mistakes. Telling him to not bite on a spot dodge or a fake or something is the same as telling him not to drop his cgs. If we looked into specific gameplay errors, we could just extrapolate it to "every time you got hit, you shouldn't have and that's bad."
B. Telling him to change how he approaches the match up would ultimately be a disservice to him. Does he need refining? Debatably so does everyone. But that isn't to say at a core I liked what I saw.
C. What I would do may or may not be helpful. I'm pretty set in my style of play, and if I told him little things that I would do that fit "my style" more than his, it might be a detriment to his game rather than a benefit.

So essentially what you're telling me to tell him to fix is the part where I thought was winning the match for him. Which would be dumb. If it works don't fix it. As opposed to what I said, which is telling him what I saw as the ONLY reason he lost.

I don't agree with Enda or Miyavi's self perceived idea that his desync game is weak. In my opinion, there really isn't a "weak" or "strong" desync game unless you know what each desync is for and what their advantages are. That takes a huge amount of knowledge of ALL of the desync options. You need to understand the frame exchange and spacing exchange for the desyncs as entities in themselves, and you'll then discover that many of them are redundant to each other so it's okay if you don't have a huge tool box of desyncs. I know that in my tourney matches, I will use only 5 of them because of my research (SND, Turn Around, RIDSC, Squall, and hitlag). Does that make my desync game weak? Maybe, but it's something that I feel shouldn't be taken and determined from the basis of one match up.

In regard to your own video, repost it and if you want a critique I'll see what I can do.
 

Rubberbandman

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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知らない
I didn't say "weak" at all. I meant there were moments he had an opportunity to put on pressure with desynch tatics that he didn't take.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
I didn't say "weak" at all. I meant there were moments he had an opportunity to put on pressure with desynch tatics that he didn't take.
To clarify, he said "crap", not you. I just feel like I can't fault someone in the MK match up for playing conservatively and not pushing. There may have been opportunities, but it's a risk/reward assessment if you follow what I mean.
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
4,503
Location
Dexters Laboratory
A. I do agree, people are human so they do make mistakes. Telling him to not bite on a spot dodge or a fake or something is the same as telling him not to drop his cgs. If we looked into specific gameplay errors, we could just extrapolate it to "every time you got hit, you shouldn't have and that's bad."
B. Telling him to change how he approaches the match up would ultimately be a disservice to him. Does he need refining? Debatably so does everyone. But that isn't to say at a core I liked what I saw.
C. What I would do may or may not be helpful. I'm pretty set in my style of play, and if I told him little things that I would do that fit "my style" more than his, it might be a detriment to his game rather than a benefit.

So essentially what you're telling me to tell him to fix is the part where I thought was winning the match for him. Which would be dumb. If it works don't fix it. As opposed to what I said, which is telling him what I saw as the ONLY reason he lost.
you honestly cant see play errors, wrong move choice selections, or even different or alternate options he could have used in many situations?

just from watching the video once you i immediately noticed
A. he rarely powershields nado, which allows me to poke him multiple times much easier
B. a lot of the reason he misses powershields is because he just auto pilot dashes back and forth, walking in this matchup in some intervals is extremely important because once you dash your options are obviously limited.
C. he doesnt respond to glide attack. the move clanks with everything, so even at the end w/ sopo he couldve naired instead of just taking a hit (note how he also got hit right at the start)
D. at 1:04 he pushed himself to the ledge when i tornadod, i backed off because i mispaced the nado for an auto cancel, however he buffered the roll before the nado even came out. its a bad habit because if i nado there he is FORCED onto the ledge, and there he has crap options
E. 2:31 charging fsmash is cool with a read but i was SOOOO far away that it was easy to react to. your response to it was to side b? either with sopo thats a poor option, and if you wanted both it was kinda obvious you where desynced
F. at 3:45 you missed a grab. and instead opted to go for side b? even if you wanted to punish me for going on the platform uair is better, because if i mixed up (which i did) you couldve reacted and grabbed me anyway
G. at 3:49 you where to slow at dropping shield. the second you see me rise w/ up be drop it and look at where im going, i cant instantly hit you from where i am w/out gliding like an idiot into you


this is watching it ONCE after i just woke up before i go out with friends. if youre incapable of noticing gameplay errors like this, then why are you bothering to comment? its not a detriment to his gameplay if he takes insight from how someone else plays. he doesnt HAVE to take what you say and do it, but looking at things from another perspective is good, which is why most people post their vids.

everything else you said in 1-3 was pretty much bull**** like youre afraid to give your own opion, and everythings debatable. obviously everythings debatable, so is your existence, opinion and your intelligence, BUT if youre going to comment anyway, you might as well give something more than what you did. you should learn to be assertive with your ideas, and if you can give solid input, then it would help the community improve.

(and even better when i call you out on it stop making crap responses and actually look at the match you are doing him a disservice)

obviously if he lost a match there are errors. its not like he ONLY dropped grabs for 4 minutes.

anyway, my 2 cents on what you could improve on, hope it helps ;)
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
Deconstruction of match followed by call for construction

Edit: Previously posted long winded response about construction vs. deconstruction critique. Not worth arguing over. Withdrawn
 

istudying

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,958
Location
The Netherlands
its answers like this that not only make you look stupid, but also stop your characters metagame from going anyplace

LOL, when i posted a vid of me going last hit w/ dabuz w/ my ****ty ics all i got was the same answer, dont drop your grabs.

OBVIOUSLY, you arent supposed to drop your grabs. a 2 year old, with the sense of a bean could understand the common sense in that, instead of pointing out obvious things, why not ummm... you know, look indef into the matchup and see GAMEPLAY errors.

you are human beings. as players. you obviously should strive to be the best and to not make technical errors ever, HOWEVER they do happen. the best players, even m2k will make a small technical error, and telling someone that doesnt help them AT ALL. if a real ice climber main doesnt want to put in 2 seconds for a fellow char main, i will point out the knowledge that i know when i can but its answers like this that make me just upset with the brawl community. its so pathetic, you gave no other advice
Tell 'em Orion!
 

MacNCheese.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
698
Location
Home.
Every time I try to do the B-throw CG, Nana always shields instead of grabbing. I practice on GaW.
Any tips?
 

Sieguest

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
3,448
Location
San Diego, CA
You're pressing too early. Give yourself a little delay so that your grab input isn't registered as buffered shield.
 

-NL-Miyavi

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 9, 2010
Messages
25
Location
Holland
its answers like this that not only make you look stupid, but also stop your characters metagame from going anyplace

LOL, when i posted a vid of me going last hit w/ dabuz w/ my ****ty ics all i got was the same answer, dont drop your grabs.

OBVIOUSLY, you arent supposed to drop your grabs. a 2 year old, with the sense of a bean could understand the common sense in that, instead of pointing out obvious things, why not ummm... you know, look indef into the matchup and see GAMEPLAY errors.

you are human beings. as players. you obviously should strive to be the best and to not make technical errors ever, HOWEVER they do happen. the best players, even m2k will make a small technical error, and telling someone that doesnt help them AT ALL. if a real ice climber main doesnt want to put in 2 seconds for a fellow char main, i will point out the knowledge that i know when i can but its answers like this that make me just upset with the brawl community. its so pathetic, you gave no other advice
Tell them like your FREEEEE<3

@ Rubber
that belay was a accident i wanted to do sqaull but mis inputted -____-
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
Can someone tech out of an usmash finisher by SDIing down to the ground and hitting the tech?


I just spent the last hour frame testing this, and I want to say "no", definitively. Anyone have a video that suggest otherwise?
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Joined
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Maryland
NNID
VGBC_GimR
Can someone tech out of an usmash finisher by SDIing down to the ground and hitting the tech?


I just spent the last hour frame testing this, and I want to say "no", definitively. Anyone have a video that suggest otherwise?
I was thinking about this and tried to do it against Cheese at MLG DC


The only reason I'd say it is unlikely is because u-smash hit's you vertically upward. Because you can't tech during hit lag like Melee you can only tech during stun. Since you're going upward no matter which way you DI you'll be to far above the ground during the first frame of hit stun to tech
 

Rubberbandman

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
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知らない
I want to say no as well, but it maybe possible. I have SDI'd an Upsmash before, just didnt tech it. But in general, could SDIing the Upsmash enough cancel enough of the knockback to keep the opponent from dying?
 

Smoom77

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,873
Location
Provo, UT
Rockettrainer did it to me on Brinstar. It's easier when there's land higher to the upsmashed person.
 

MacNCheese.

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 2, 2010
Messages
698
Location
Home.
I have two questions,

1: I need to learn how to do a N-Bthrow alternating throw and I can't get it down, tips?
2: I can't do Dthrow alternating throws, tips?( I always grab too late)
 

BadKarma

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
304
Location
Texas
when are some good times to use nair? I seem to never use it and I think it might help alot if I started using it, thanks.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
when are some good times to use nair? I seem to never use it and I think it might help alot if I started using it, thanks.
Nair:

- is one of only two IC moves that ground locks (I'm hoping that the SL comes out with the hitstun, escape frame nonsense to see if this means it's a viable grab/IB lock setup, fingers crossed but not confirmed or even tested)
- is tied with Uair for the fastest aerial move
- hits slightly disjointed forward and backwards, as well as slightly above
- has all the lingering hit box in the world
- has half the landing lag of an uair

That's purely from a data standpoint.

From a matchup standpoint, I tend to use nair as a mixup for Uair/Fair. If the opponent is in front of me horizontally and I'm not zoned correctly while in the air, Nair is a superior option to fair. If the opponent is platformed above me, you can repeatedly nair faster than you can repeatedly uair. It's just important to remember that's nair is much less disjointed than either uair or fair, so it'll have "priority" issues. It also doesn't have a constant lingering hitbox like uair because the hitbox moves around in a circle, nor the meteor properties of nana's fair. There is also a significant knockback trade.


TL;DR Nair is for speed.
 

Rubberbandman

Smash Champion
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Aug 11, 2007
Messages
2,264
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知らない
If your opponent is trying to double jump airdodge around you, nair is really good because it lasts longer than UAir. Low %, Nair is really useful for setting up potential grabs. Nair is an all around good move, just look around for places you can use it.
 

toobusytocare

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
1,295
Location
Seattle, Washington
on light characters: Bthrow>dthrow/fthrow
on medium characters: buffered dthrow, bthrow>fthrow
on heavies: buffered dthrow, non buffered fthrow, bthrow>fthrow, hobbling
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,303
Thanks guys, please put any more specific answers in the cg thread :)

It seems that bthrow > fthrow is the most common, so I'm probably going to start there.
 
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