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General ICs Q&A Thread
- Thread starter smaci92
- Start date
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Not a directly IC's related question but...
does anyone have the link to Swordgard's momentum cancel/DI thread? I'd like to spread the good word.
does anyone have the link to Swordgard's momentum cancel/DI thread? I'd like to spread the good word.
Kite0692
Smash Journeyman
A question for da lulz:
Who´s better: a single climber or ganon? Why? and how would be the matchup??
Who´s better: a single climber or ganon? Why? and how would be the matchup??
Sieguest
Smash Master
What? What? What?
SoPo> Ganon from the way I see it.
SoPo has better mobility than Ganon, has a projectile. The dthrow CG to rack up a lot of damage from low percents. Disjointed hitbox. And stuff.... The only thing wrong with SoPo is his easily read recoveries. I really wouldn't be surprised it we could solo dthrow CG to the edge and then just beat out his recovery.
But that's all in the land of somewhere... =/
SoPo> Ganon from the way I see it.
SoPo has better mobility than Ganon, has a projectile. The dthrow CG to rack up a lot of damage from low percents. Disjointed hitbox. And stuff.... The only thing wrong with SoPo is his easily read recoveries. I really wouldn't be surprised it we could solo dthrow CG to the edge and then just beat out his recovery.
But that's all in the land of somewhere... =/
can somebody give me some tips for fighting mk with sopo? my sopo is getting way better but mk is just a huge wall I can't get over :/ I know that playing really smart is the key but does anybody have any little tips/tricks that help in the match up?
At low %'s look only for a grab. You can CG MK with Sopo up till 65% into a fsmash, and you can walk the CG till 40% before you have to start dashing. After this look for small hits or a way to put him above you. I like to go for a back throw because if you do it fast a lot of people DI it wrong and it's a free uair. You only need a few hits before MK is in kill range, and then you want to read an airdodge or spotdodge/roll and get a smash off. It's really just a lot of experience and smart play.
Teh Future
Smash Master
mks tend to stay on the ground more when you are sopo.
a lot of them like to try to set up tilt walls. if they do this just dash into it>shield>grab
if they like doing stupid things like shorthop fair.... shield grab it.
blizzard is also really good vs grounded mk, but don't be too predictable with it.
basically if hes on the ground just grab him. The biggest problem i have with mks as sopo is when they grab me, but if they are at low percents then we get more out of landing a grab. When they are at higher percents they are gonna stay in their shield more anyways so its easier to get a grab.
once mks is at like 100% they are going to just sit in their shield. grab them and remember stale upair kills around 130 rather than just going for the easy fsmash
edit: also if they start trying to spotdodge your grabs just jab afterwards bc it is faster than any of his options
a lot of them like to try to set up tilt walls. if they do this just dash into it>shield>grab
if they like doing stupid things like shorthop fair.... shield grab it.
blizzard is also really good vs grounded mk, but don't be too predictable with it.
basically if hes on the ground just grab him. The biggest problem i have with mks as sopo is when they grab me, but if they are at low percents then we get more out of landing a grab. When they are at higher percents they are gonna stay in their shield more anyways so its easier to get a grab.
once mks is at like 100% they are going to just sit in their shield. grab them and remember stale upair kills around 130 rather than just going for the easy fsmash
edit: also if they start trying to spotdodge your grabs just jab afterwards bc it is faster than any of his options
Sieguest
Smash Master
It's not often that I say that this (what I've highlighted in red) is flat out wrong. Every little bit helps. Yeah you'll lose your stock pretty quickly once MK gets a bead on you but you can still get some damage in if you hang tough. Also getting a grab at low percents leads to some good damage with the SoPo CG as Hylian all ready pointed out. Just play smart.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
Yeah, that only works if the mk is going to going to trying to run away the whole time. If he only runs to the ledge, give him the pressure to stay on the ledge to counter time out him. If he's just gonna run away, play smart and pay attention to the clock. This is only if you have another stock though. Thats the keyword.
Else follow what the smarter people said.
Else follow what the smarter people said.
Sieguest
Smash Master
Wouldn't he just time you out the same way SoPo or not? I don't see how having Nana makes much of a difference vs. an MK that's running away from you.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,303
I think the difference would come from punishing power. Although, I see where you're coming from.
If you have nana, you can cg to death. In that scenario, they have to go to platform camping or planking. Planking eats up their ledge grabs on the limit in most tournies, so they lose that option after a while or can't let a time out occur. Underlevel gliding shenanigans can get interrupted much more easily with desynced IB's than a solo IB, forcing them to ledge grab.
Without popo, it's ok for them to use many other stalling tactics such as fair walls that we have a very difficult time breaking through. And it's also ok for them to take high damage, because with a lack of approach options, getting the kill is much harder. We're limited to things like hard read fsmashes, usmash OoS, and hard read FAirs for kills. That's not a whole lot of options.
It is definitely worse than adding in belay (kind of), grab > death, and all the frame special frame trap special shenanigans, etc etc. How much worse is debatable, where the merit of killing one's self to get nana back is predicated on how much worse off in killing power sopo is compared to the climber pair.
If you have nana, you can cg to death. In that scenario, they have to go to platform camping or planking. Planking eats up their ledge grabs on the limit in most tournies, so they lose that option after a while or can't let a time out occur. Underlevel gliding shenanigans can get interrupted much more easily with desynced IB's than a solo IB, forcing them to ledge grab.
Without popo, it's ok for them to use many other stalling tactics such as fair walls that we have a very difficult time breaking through. And it's also ok for them to take high damage, because with a lack of approach options, getting the kill is much harder. We're limited to things like hard read fsmashes, usmash OoS, and hard read FAirs for kills. That's not a whole lot of options.
It is definitely worse than adding in belay (kind of), grab > death, and all the frame special frame trap special shenanigans, etc etc. How much worse is debatable, where the merit of killing one's self to get nana back is predicated on how much worse off in killing power sopo is compared to the climber pair.
Sieguest
Smash Master
I see your point, and that seems to be the primary difference that may make it worthwhile. However a char that has at most 2 glides, five jumps and all of his specials being recovery moves along with the fact that you're a stock behind after SDing to get Nana back; MK doesn't have to worry too much about taking hits. It's not too much for him to air camp safely and there are many ways he avoids the grab without running away in the first place. Plus if you truly wished to stop him, you're forced to go aggro. He wouldn't even need to resort to planking to get past IBs (unless you're smart about them and you're on FD). He has jumps to get himself over desyncs involving blizzard. Also since he's a stock ahead, if he's in kill percent already then it wouldn't even hurt for him to land even if he gets hit by an IB if you have to cover some distance. And since you're having to go aggro he may land some shots on Nana as you go after him. So even if you take his stock off, then come the next stock when you both are equal again you're all ready disadvantaged with a Nana that's ripe for getting picked off.
All of that said though, there probably is a way we may overcome that disadvantage. Smart play and good use of our options could get our hands on MK and get a stock away.
Either way you go you're forced to go aggro and either way you go MK has the tools to avoid you. The difference being the difficulty of avoiding you, a smart MK could still find ways to avoid you despite the increase in difficulty. In my opinion the trade off isn't worth it, but then again the value of the trade off may change depending on the stage you're on and the circumstances you're under.
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
On FD Icies > Diddy.
Im kinda hot or cold with TL on any stage. Which is why I will reserve my opinion once again.
Im kinda hot or cold with TL on any stage. Which is why I will reserve my opinion once again.
toobusytocare
Smash Lord
ICs are definitely better than Diddy on FD
but in the diddy matchup i ban FD because it makes it easier to avoid bananas while CGing
but in the diddy matchup i ban FD because it makes it easier to avoid bananas while CGing
2-DJeff
Smash Master
Lux how do you fight peach. Could we do a new Match up write up for her? I got 2-0 by Kyon twice. Here are the results: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11746543&posted=1#post11746543
and he knocked me out of losers. Squall hammer doesn't work against her unless shes high precents cause after she gets hit she can just nair me and split me up. I shield her floating dair and buffer up smash which works but its hard to time it every time. I just want your opinion because i know you helped me with the MK MU.
and he knocked me out of losers. Squall hammer doesn't work against her unless shes high precents cause after she gets hit she can just nair me and split me up. I shield her floating dair and buffer up smash which works but its hard to time it every time. I just want your opinion because i know you helped me with the MK MU.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
fffffffffffffffffffff snake. what the hell are you supposed to do? its like he can react faster and with better range to anything i have. i mean, if i get the grab he's dying, but its just a **** fest getting that close.
EverAlert
Smash Master
shieldgrab ftilt -> win.
bait dacus -> pivotgrab.
l2 instant throw 'nades.
pay attention to where he drops ****.
basically just play smart and not run into ****, don't fish for grabs, just focus on making his explosives game work against him, or at the very least make him feel like it's doing nothing. it's not terribly difficult to get him offstage if you're not a ******, and not terribly hard to gimp him if you're not a ******.
snake is not that hard really.
oh yeah, don't blizzard unless you want something blown up in your face. I know it's good in like every other matchup, but yeah...
bait dacus -> pivotgrab.
l2 instant throw 'nades.
pay attention to where he drops ****.
basically just play smart and not run into ****, don't fish for grabs, just focus on making his explosives game work against him, or at the very least make him feel like it's doing nothing. it's not terribly difficult to get him offstage if you're not a ******, and not terribly hard to gimp him if you're not a ******.
snake is not that hard really.
oh yeah, don't blizzard unless you want something blown up in your face. I know it's good in like every other matchup, but yeah...
Rubberbandman
Smash Champion
ea, Blizzard is good only if you ib before you do it. That forces the grenade drop if he didn't pick it up already and if you space blizzard right after that he'll get blown up by it by himself.
2D-Jeff, Floating peach can't do **** about blizzard if you are in front of her. If you're right below her, shield her dairs -> utilt. You should ask Cheese about the matchup more than you should lux, Cheese takes on Snakeee all the time. (aka alot of experience) Also future has a lot of experience in it.
2D-Jeff, Floating peach can't do **** about blizzard if you are in front of her. If you're right below her, shield her dairs -> utilt. You should ask Cheese about the matchup more than you should lux, Cheese takes on Snakeee all the time. (aka alot of experience) Also future has a lot of experience in it.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
these are great points, especially the last one. i found myself using blizzard to try and punish him/catch his dacus, but 90% of the time he pulled a nade out of his *** in what seemed to be mid slide.
i also need to remember squall is bad
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11341547&postcount=9819
I don't remember what I said in that post about squall, but now I think it's really useful. Just catch her by surprise and do a rising squall so she can't nair.
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,303
I have Nicole in my region, but I have yet to play her in tourney. When I get the chance, I'll play her and give a better answer.
But I play this match up facing backwards. Bair beats literally every aerial. And facing the opposite direction puts you in position to pivot grab.
Don't shield drop on the float cancel fair > jab. There's only 2 frames or something like that, according to Peachkid when I played him for a while. I'd double check the frame data, but I have only one hand atm from playing dodgeball yesterday. I'll get back later if you don't double check
PS: I hate commenting on matchups. Just not my thing lol
Def get Future and Hylian to comment on this one. I think last time I talked to Cheese about the MU, he would go to his MK on the matchup.
But I play this match up facing backwards. Bair beats literally every aerial. And facing the opposite direction puts you in position to pivot grab.
Don't shield drop on the float cancel fair > jab. There's only 2 frames or something like that, according to Peachkid when I played him for a while. I'd double check the frame data, but I have only one hand atm from playing dodgeball yesterday. I'll get back later if you don't double check
PS: I hate commenting on matchups. Just not my thing lol
Def get Future and Hylian to comment on this one. I think last time I talked to Cheese about the MU, he would go to his MK on the matchup.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
No hate, but i don't like how cheese play and i heard he goes mk for that mu, and there high ranked peaches in Newyork? thats tight. and sometimes she floats to high for blizzard
Teh Future
Smash Master
if shes trying to float over you and dair you can nair or bair her. if she jumps higher short hop upair beats or clashes with her dair at the right range.
desync when she is on the ledge. use turnups to desync (catch with nair)
eh matchup in a nutshell lol.
and her fair is really gay and impossible to punish
desync when she is on the ledge. use turnups to desync (catch with nair)
eh matchup in a nutshell lol.
and her fair is really gay and impossible to punish
2-DJeff
Smash Master
imma desync when she on the edge but countering floating dair with nair or bair dosnt work ive tried it and kyon always hits first with a nair counter
2-DJeff
Smash Master
you cant space nair or bair if she directly above you she will nair you before you hit her
Sieguest
Smash Master
nvm
Ignore this post.
2-DJeff
Smash Master
i never tried it in the middle because it seems risky but ill give it a try
Teh Future
Smash Master
yeah not saying to do it out of shield lol. you dont want to be underneath her in this matchup unless she is high enough to upair. hit her on the side w/ bair or nair when she is trying to dair you.
best option when she is dairing your shield is to just roll away after dair is finished tbh.
if she is doing to too low you can shieldgrab it sometimes... idk the spacing is really weird and i dunno how to explain lol
best option when she is dairing your shield is to just roll away after dair is finished tbh.
if she is doing to too low you can shieldgrab it sometimes... idk the spacing is really weird and i dunno how to explain lol
ch33s3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2008
- Messages
- 1,756
And what is it about my play you don't like? I grab everything like you're supposed to.
Oh, and yea, I definitely go MK in that matchup...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b5dDKOO9is
2-DJeff
Smash Master
isnt snakee a ZSS main?
This is why i assume that you go mk in the peach MU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTGQQhTgFL0 at 1:44
nice counters on the dair tho but snakee is not playing like how kyon plays the IC MU at all
and the reason why i don't like your play style is because you don't do desync grab setups at all but he its my opinion its just me saying this...
you have good reads on mk to but watching you fight DK and other charaters... I just dont like how you play