*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
Uair-> Uair-> Aerial Squall's damage output is CARAAAAAAAAAZY!
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
HawaiianJigglyPuff
Smash Ace
rofl 10char
I'm going to start posting more because I've been neglecting my Melee studies 
dash attack a bad thing to do a lot? I've started using it a lot cause it sets up for combos so well and it doesn't seem that punishable. The hitbox is kind of weird though. And it's not that laggy either. I want something to approach with besides wd> f-tilt/jab . So should I not be using this too much?
Oh yeah, just noticed that wobbles is banned.. for an infinite [# of points]. That's great.
Oh yeah, just noticed that wobbles is banned.. for an infinite [# of points]. That's great.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
you are right, GOD!
(of course you're right, you're god!)
LOL
but yeah, dash attack is an excellent move, and an amazing setup (especially on fast fallers) for grabs
people try to avoid grabs a lot, so sometimes when they try to space dash grabs, they are just in range for a dash attack
this very simple mixup from grabbing adds a whole new dimension to the generic ic's approach game (wavedashing, wave shielding)
be sure to wave dash into dash attacks, such a good approach, very fast
they literally jump out to dash attack, no one expects that range. great against falco and falcon
(of course you're right, you're god!)
LOL
but yeah, dash attack is an excellent move, and an amazing setup (especially on fast fallers) for grabs
people try to avoid grabs a lot, so sometimes when they try to space dash grabs, they are just in range for a dash attack
this very simple mixup from grabbing adds a whole new dimension to the generic ic's approach game (wavedashing, wave shielding)
be sure to wave dash into dash attacks, such a good approach, very fast
they literally jump out to dash attack, no one expects that range. great against falco and falcon
Finch
Smash Lord
If you dash attack a spacie or falcon at low percents you should be able to grab and kill them regardless of DI. If they DI away you can just wd > jab before they hit the ground, which stops them from teching so they just sit there giving you a free grab. Chu does it a lot.
But I still don't understand why dash attack works. I THINK it works when you approach and they expect you to dsmash or jab or something, and they shffl something to beat your approach, but the high priority hitbox on the dash attack is already out and so they get hit. You just have to space it correctly or the hitbox won't be out and you'll just get hit with an aerial. you also can't get predictable with it, because I'm pretty sure that if they sheildgrab and throw immediately you'll still be in lag from the dash attack and won't be able to sheildgrab or whatever with the other climber. They could also just wd back and smash you or whatever.
Dash attack is awesome as a surprise, just don't spam it.
But I still don't understand why dash attack works. I THINK it works when you approach and they expect you to dsmash or jab or something, and they shffl something to beat your approach, but the high priority hitbox on the dash attack is already out and so they get hit. You just have to space it correctly or the hitbox won't be out and you'll just get hit with an aerial. you also can't get predictable with it, because I'm pretty sure that if they sheildgrab and throw immediately you'll still be in lag from the dash attack and won't be able to sheildgrab or whatever with the other climber. They could also just wd back and smash you or whatever.
Dash attack is awesome as a surprise, just don't spam it.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I wish ICs had a bread and butter move that they could spam, like Fox's nair and Marth's fair. Imagine if their ftilt had the same properties as utilt. OMG that would ****.
Anyway wavedash utilt is certainly good for approach in a couple situations. Wavejabs, of course, we all know. And now, it seems, dash attack.
I just wish ICs' air game wasn't so garbage. I mean, they have next to no horizontal movement when airborne (except hammer squall but who's going to use that!?), they also have no high priority aerial other than uair; but compared with the number of situations where you are in a neutral position (and approaching options are of importance) situations when your opponent is above you (for which uair is nicely suited) are slim to none.
From experience I've found nair and dair are really just horrible. Granted, my experience using ICs is a bit limited, but still. Like, what in the world is nair even supposed to be used for????? That's a dead end. And dair has no potential as an approach, AND its range sucks (Fox's uair, if timed right, goes through it!). Sure, you'll be using it for cgs from time to time, but that's about the extent of its usefulness.
Fair is seriously just bla. Sure, if you get the double fair to hit it's nice damage, and you can usually thunders combo immediately afterward. I don't know. I just don't really like it. I guess we could possibly be talking a bit of shield pressure and spacing, but I'm not going to push it.
I will say, bair is pretty tight. Good range, priority and knockback? Thank you for the present, sir. But this isn't really spammable either.
For now, I'm just going to experiment with things like blizzard and desynched blocks. Also, I'm going to see if I can find any merit in SH > waveland > SHFFL'ed aerials. I really feel like there has to be a gold mine somewhere in ICs metagame that allows you to not depend on getting that grab AS much. I really really really really want to just unlock some more of this character's potential.
Anyway wavedash utilt is certainly good for approach in a couple situations. Wavejabs, of course, we all know. And now, it seems, dash attack.
I just wish ICs' air game wasn't so garbage. I mean, they have next to no horizontal movement when airborne (except hammer squall but who's going to use that!?), they also have no high priority aerial other than uair; but compared with the number of situations where you are in a neutral position (and approaching options are of importance) situations when your opponent is above you (for which uair is nicely suited) are slim to none.
From experience I've found nair and dair are really just horrible. Granted, my experience using ICs is a bit limited, but still. Like, what in the world is nair even supposed to be used for????? That's a dead end. And dair has no potential as an approach, AND its range sucks (Fox's uair, if timed right, goes through it!). Sure, you'll be using it for cgs from time to time, but that's about the extent of its usefulness.
Fair is seriously just bla. Sure, if you get the double fair to hit it's nice damage, and you can usually thunders combo immediately afterward. I don't know. I just don't really like it. I guess we could possibly be talking a bit of shield pressure and spacing, but I'm not going to push it.
I will say, bair is pretty tight. Good range, priority and knockback? Thank you for the present, sir. But this isn't really spammable either.
For now, I'm just going to experiment with things like blizzard and desynched blocks. Also, I'm going to see if I can find any merit in SH > waveland > SHFFL'ed aerials. I really feel like there has to be a gold mine somewhere in ICs metagame that allows you to not depend on getting that grab AS much. I really really really really want to just unlock some more of this character's potential.
PB&J
Smash Hero
y do u think icy' arials are garbage..your prob just using them wrong..i never really use to use the fair but latlely ive been spaicing it and its beast..and there up air is godly..to me best aerial they have and space right there nair *****..and of course there back air is godly..just space it right and there arials are really good..use ur desynces more with them..icys dont need anything else..they are perfect the way they are i just think nobody mastered them yet ..yeah i said it..icy's have so much stuff and most icy mains only use lie 40 50 percent full potential..
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I love fair. As long as you're not just throwing it out there for no reason, it's really good.
Finch
Smash Lord
fair has so many uses. It's most apparent is getting you a free grab or smash when you hit someone approaching from the ground (retreating fair ***** shiny foxes). if you've only got one climber and you pop the opponent up with it you can follow it up with dash attack or something and start a combo.
nair can get you a grab sometimes. ALSO I've seen wobbles beat phantasm with this like sheik does, by running off the stage and then jumping back up with this. More IC players, including myself, need to do this.
dair can get you out of bad situations if you're above your opponent and they mess up their spacing. Try spamming dair to get out of combos and see what happens.
nair can get you a grab sometimes. ALSO I've seen wobbles beat phantasm with this like sheik does, by running off the stage and then jumping back up with this. More IC players, including myself, need to do this.
dair can get you out of bad situations if you're above your opponent and they mess up their spacing. Try spamming dair to get out of combos and see what happens.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Fair has a huge coverage arc. I'm not really a fan of using fair at SH height though, because that's usually the level at which people will throw hitboxes just to stymie your ground approaches. I do, however, like wavedash > FJ > fair fastfallen. It sweeps downward, so that it's almost like their dair extended, with considerably more power.
I actually have been using nair to edgeguard, almost exclusively, because you can recover from a falling (not fastfallen, just falling as opposed to rising) nair. It also has enough knockback that it usually will take a stock then and there. I never thought about using it to counteract a sweetspotting space animal. That is definitely something I need to start doing.
Yea, I agree with your statement about dair, Finch. It is certainly the combo breaker.
When I said I didn't like nair and dair, I meant I felt that they didn't have a place in ICs' approach game (because their knockback, range and priority aren't great). Really the point of my post was to figure out what ICs' best approaching options are. I listed wavejab, wavetilts and dash attack. And then I was thinking about aerials in terms of effectiveness when approaching.
I actually have been using nair to edgeguard, almost exclusively, because you can recover from a falling (not fastfallen, just falling as opposed to rising) nair. It also has enough knockback that it usually will take a stock then and there. I never thought about using it to counteract a sweetspotting space animal. That is definitely something I need to start doing.
Yea, I agree with your statement about dair, Finch. It is certainly the combo breaker.
When I said I didn't like nair and dair, I meant I felt that they didn't have a place in ICs' approach game (because their knockback, range and priority aren't great). Really the point of my post was to figure out what ICs' best approaching options are. I listed wavejab, wavetilts and dash attack. And then I was thinking about aerials in terms of effectiveness when approaching.
Zjiin
Smash Master
The ICs don't have an aerial i think is bad. They all have their uses. <3 the ice baby air game.
Finch
Smash Lord
ICs don't have any good aerials. uair is decent. We just have to make the best of what we've got.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
ICs have three good aerials. N-air is rarely a better option than b-air, and d-air doesn't really do anything outside of grab combos and a mediocre luigi sex kick, but u-air/b-air/f-air are all good if you know how to abuse them.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
man my usage of aerials is so pro sometimes
i ****
i ****
Finch
Smash Lord
I don't want to get into an argument about it, but let's be serious: there's a different between a good aerial and an aerial that has incredibly situational good uses, which all of IC's aerials are. We can't just jump around and spam any of our aerials like jiggs or fox or marth can, and we can't just jump down and gimp characters below the stage like sheik or marth or jiggs can.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
B-air is very spammable, sh autocancel u-air is a safe approach and invaluable in combos, f-air is the least comparable to a typical aerial game, but you can at least get some good priority and comboability out of it.
Most characters' aerial games don't have such long-lasting hitboxes. I spam the **** out of b-air and u-air; you can cover almost every defensive option with their ridiculous duration and priority.
Most characters' aerial games don't have such long-lasting hitboxes. I spam the **** out of b-air and u-air; you can cover almost every defensive option with their ridiculous duration and priority.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Not to mention disjointed.
I'm beginning to realize that wavedash to aerial makes them much more flexible (i.e., you can actually cover ground with them this way).
WD turn around bair is so easy to do and covers so much. My new favorite IC move by far.
Also does anyone ever try camping with IC's? I never even think about camping, I just go pressure them, but is ice block camping or just hanging around one place a good idea? Ort is this stage dependent?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I play really defensively. P called me the biggest camper in SoCal a few months ago.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Hey it's easier to get grabs when you play defensively. More grabs = more stocks.
PB&J
Smash Hero
dont compare icy's arial game to characters who have the best ariels in the game..
like i said before icy's arial game is good ..not the best but u can spam it when ued wisely and i dont agree with being more defensive gets u more grabs..im very agro and grab alot of people because i know ho they react and here i can bait the grab..so lets not thhrow a certain playstyle is better than the other with icy's..icy's are very divers and people need to start using thm diff than they do and then add everything together and im very positve icys should be top tier..peach is the only igh tier character they strugle against the rest u just need good execution nd **** status
like i said before icy's arial game is good ..not the best but u can spam it when ued wisely and i dont agree with being more defensive gets u more grabs..im very agro and grab alot of people because i know ho they react and here i can bait the grab..so lets not thhrow a certain playstyle is better than the other with icy's..icy's are very divers and people need to start using thm diff than they do and then add everything together and im very positve icys should be top tier..peach is the only igh tier character they strugle against the rest u just need good execution nd **** status
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i really need to improve in melee if i wanna do better at genesis
soooo much brawl...
soooo much brawl...
Ok I need help against Sheik.
What are somethings that I can do against her? How can I approach? How can I get possibly get a grab when they're airborne most of the time? Any advice on this matchup would be nice. I read up on the IC guide on these boards.
I'll probably have these matches that we're doing now up in a couple weeks. So y'all can see what I'm going through.
What are somethings that I can do against her? How can I approach? How can I get possibly get a grab when they're airborne most of the time? Any advice on this matchup would be nice. I read up on the IC guide on these boards.
I'll probably have these matches that we're doing now up in a couple weeks. So y'all can see what I'm going through.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Sheik's obnoxious.
You shouldn't be trying too hard to get grabs since it's really tough to get close to her. Your best bet is to CC her ftilt or try to get her with blizzard, but it's hard to catch good Sheiks off-guard with blizzard and if the Sheik short hops when you try to CC an ftilt, you're immediately put in a bad position.
I think utilt, usmash, and fsmash are your best approach options. Which one works tends to depend a lot on how the Sheik likes to space herself. If you can manage to get under the Sheik when she short hops, utilt and usmash are good. If she spaces herself a bit too far for this to work, sporadic wave-fsmashes work pretty well.
Also, keep in mind that a lot of Sheiks expect ICs to approach them and don't really know what to do when ICs camp back. This doesn't work well if the Sheik is very familiar with the match-up, but some surprisingly good players will fall for desynched ice blocks and blizzards.
In other news, at a tourney yesterday, two rounds I played came down to the timer. I was using Fox in one of them, though.
You shouldn't be trying too hard to get grabs since it's really tough to get close to her. Your best bet is to CC her ftilt or try to get her with blizzard, but it's hard to catch good Sheiks off-guard with blizzard and if the Sheik short hops when you try to CC an ftilt, you're immediately put in a bad position.
I think utilt, usmash, and fsmash are your best approach options. Which one works tends to depend a lot on how the Sheik likes to space herself. If you can manage to get under the Sheik when she short hops, utilt and usmash are good. If she spaces herself a bit too far for this to work, sporadic wave-fsmashes work pretty well.
Also, keep in mind that a lot of Sheiks expect ICs to approach them and don't really know what to do when ICs camp back. This doesn't work well if the Sheik is very familiar with the match-up, but some surprisingly good players will fall for desynched ice blocks and blizzards.
In other news, at a tourney yesterday, two rounds I played came down to the timer. I was using Fox in one of them, though.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Tournament matches that come down to time are too fun to watch. Take Pink Shinobi vs. Germ for example.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu---tournament Matches That Come Down To Time Are Too Fun To Watch. Take Pink Shinobi Vs. Germ For Example.
Likeness101
Smash Apprentice
I have decided to main Ice climbers in melee. My question is what do I focus on first? Chaingrabbing, desyching, spacing, etc? I can do some of the basics with them such as wavedashing, l-cancelling and the D-throw CG on the spacies.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
The first thing you should make sure is that you're totally fluent with the basics, not just capable of doing them. There is a huge difference between being able to do something technical and being able to do it whenever you feel it's necessary without any premeditation.
After that, I suggest watching a bunch of videos, playing against people better than you, and taking note of what sort of tactics are giving you a hard time and thinking about how you could counter said tactics.
After that, I suggest watching a bunch of videos, playing against people better than you, and taking note of what sort of tactics are giving you a hard time and thinking about how you could counter said tactics.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I would actually say focus on spacing. That's the most important thing for ICs, imo, because if you know how to CG, desynch, l-cancel, wavedash, SH, it's all useless if you can't hit/grab (especially!) your opponent.
Practice wavedashing like crazy. Be able to control how far your wavedash takes you. Also, wavelanding really helps your mobility.
Anyway, things like wavedash OOS, wavetilts/jabs/smashes/grabs. And in general, just know the hitbox timings for like fair/bair/ftilt/utilt/uair. All of the critical moves.
Practice wavedashing like crazy. Be able to control how far your wavedash takes you. Also, wavelanding really helps your mobility.
Anyway, things like wavedash OOS, wavetilts/jabs/smashes/grabs. And in general, just know the hitbox timings for like fair/bair/ftilt/utilt/uair. All of the critical moves.
Likeness101
Smash Apprentice
Well, I am trying to set up a way so that when I go on melee I can practice said ideas. I never understood spacing in melee. I originally came from playing Brawl marth and his spacing was with fairs and dtilts in a slow paced game. I don't really understand how you can space in such a fast pace game with moves that aren't really like his. So basically, how do you space with Ice Climbers? I watched some of Chu's videos and I couldn't really tell.
Also, I shall practice L-Cancelling, SH and Wavedashing like crazy to try and become fluent in them.
Also, I shall practice L-Cancelling, SH and Wavedashing like crazy to try and become fluent in them.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's a tough concept. Chu's spacing is too complex to explain in one sitting, plus I haven't studied his style in depth. But I've noticed often times he light-shield-dashes around a lot. So basically he approaches and retreats with his shield. Really spacing with ICs is all about baiting attacks that you can punish.
If Fox approaches with nair you can just wavedash backwards and catch him as he lands with a dash attack. Chu typically follows up dash attacks with wavedash>dsmash on fastfallers and with uair > uair/bair on lighter characters. The key to getting grabs is not to force it, but also not to rush it. You can always play with your opponent's head to manipulate him to some degree. Some people will stay airborne a lot to avoid getting grabbed. Against those people, preemptively throw out uairs. Just put a lot of hitboxes where you don't want your opponent to be, and he'll be less inclined to be there soon enough.
Also, try not to be repetitive. One of the reasons why Chu's so difficult to immitate is because he doesn't do the same things over and over. He's constantly thinking about the best option and taking it, not just mindlessly throwing out the same attacks just because they're reliable.
If Fox approaches with nair you can just wavedash backwards and catch him as he lands with a dash attack. Chu typically follows up dash attacks with wavedash>dsmash on fastfallers and with uair > uair/bair on lighter characters. The key to getting grabs is not to force it, but also not to rush it. You can always play with your opponent's head to manipulate him to some degree. Some people will stay airborne a lot to avoid getting grabbed. Against those people, preemptively throw out uairs. Just put a lot of hitboxes where you don't want your opponent to be, and he'll be less inclined to be there soon enough.
Also, try not to be repetitive. One of the reasons why Chu's so difficult to immitate is because he doesn't do the same things over and over. He's constantly thinking about the best option and taking it, not just mindlessly throwing out the same attacks just because they're reliable.
Likeness101
Smash Apprentice
So basically, the Ice Climbers form of spacing is different from everybody else? They just can't go out there and throw our tilts and aerials or even ice blocks? Instead, I have to learn how to attacks and punish accordingly? Stage control appears to be a very big part of their game then.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Well, inasmuch as every character has different physics and a different moveset, you have to space differently, using certain attacks only in appropriate situations. It's all about being adaptive, too, though.
You can, but I wouldn't recommend it. If you just throw out moves for the sake of doing so, you're going to be predictable. This is true of any character. I was just detailing how you go about playing ICs, I didn't mean to say that you can't throw out a wall of hitboxes hoping your opponent runs into it.
PB&J
Smash Hero
icy spacing is way differ..there are 2 chaacters to worry about..or u an use nana as a shild like i do.lol..jk..just practiing movin around and wave landing then worry about desyncs then chain grabs then edge guarding then nana gaurding.something i came up with.ill post vids later..and then **** the world
Finch
Smash Lord
If your opponent feels like you have a hitbox out all the time to catch him no matter how he approaches then you have good spacing. If your opponent feels like he can just hit you all the time anywhere with no repercussions then you have bad spacing.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Really, really good way of putting it. So I guess we could say spacing is essentially just limiting your opponent's options for approaching.
Finch
Smash Lord
It isn't "just" that, but that's certainly part of it. Spacing is physically being in a good position to do what you want to do. Edgeguarding requires good spacing, so does approaching and defending. It's really used in every aspect of the game.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I stand corrected.
In other news, yesterday I was playing a friend who just picked up ICs, and he was desynch blizzarding with nana to stifle my approaches extremely effectively. I didn't realize blizzard set up for grabs so well. The stun is ridiculous.
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
dude just di the blizzard up and jump. he'll miss the grab everytime. people doing that is why i tend to wavedash into a blizzard and just utilt.