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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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I really doubt that would lead to a grab against a good Sheik. Ice blocks don't accomplish much in this match-up; blizzard has its uses, but it rarely leads to grabs since it's easy to DI out of.

edit: Oh yeah, desynching against Sheik can be really risky if there are platforms nearby.
 

Razor

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do ic's even counter sheik anymore? i played a bunch of sheiks yesterday and i got handled badly.
 

choknater

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not really. she is hard to fight. the only reason people call ic's a counter is because she is really easy to cg

you have to do the chu style cg which people always forget

which is dthrow dsmash without the dsmash knockback
 

Razor

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man, chu makes it look so easy. the sheiks i play camp me so hard. the platforms on most stages really benefit her. i have no idea how to get the grabs.
 

Fly_Amanita

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I like to do the solo IC dthrow CG on Sheik and switch to the ledge CG when I can. Properly done ledge CGs should mean death.

If the Sheik is camping hard on platforms, you have a few options. I think the best option against good Sheiks is to stay near the ground and bait Sheik into coming down with a fair. You can't punish it well, but it gets Sheik off the platform and you can now apply stuff I said in post #358.

If Sheik really doesn't want to come down and is just jumping and throwing needles. Try to get under her and uair. Sheiks that play the match-up this way will usually jump to the center platform (I'm assuming we're on the usual three floating platform layout if the Sheik is doing this sort of camping), which can be tough to punish, but is nonetheless a better position for you then her as long as you can stay under her.

On other levels with floating platforms that Sheik can abuse, but no higher platform to flee to once you get below her, a lot of Sheiks will shield, which you can punish with waveland -> grab. Some Sheiks will do this even if they can flee somewhere safer. If the Sheik doesn't shield, she'll probably run off to one of the sides to get to the floor again.

A few other miscellaneous notes:

-If you can get Sheik near the edge, take note of what she likes to do: if she rolls or spot dodges, you grab her and kill her from there. If she jumps, which a lot of Sheiks and other characters in general do when near the edge, nair and bair are good for pushing her off. Those are risky, though, and if you'd prefer to stay on the floor, that's fine, too; the worst she can do is waveland onto a platform above you and do a falling bair off the other side, which actually is a pretty scary position, but you should be able to prevent this situation from arising on reaction by heading toward the center of the stage if you see her jump.

-If the Sheik likes to Shino stall, you can wavedash and grab the edge to force her to come on stage and take a hit/grab or stupidly kill herself. A lot of Sheiks will wavedash onto the edge and try to get safely back to the center of the stage if they see you try to do this; fortunately, this is easy to bait. For example, if you're facing towards a Sheik who is Shino stalling and you turn around, your opponent probably thinks you're going to try to take the edge. They wavedash onto the stage and you simply turn around and grab. You could even do a stationary wavedash if you think your foe responds to the "boing" sound the ICs' wavedash makes if you want to scare her back onstage.

-Fair is not reliable in this match-up at all. Don't use it unless you have no alternatives.

-If you have a habit of dsmashing a lot, which many ICs do, try to break it just for this match-up; I used to do this and get punished badly since Sheik can trivially short hop over dsmash. Replacing your dsmash instinct with a usmash one might work alright.

-Don't let Sheik trap you in your shield. It can be tempting to just sit in your shield if you're being pressured, since it often feels like you can't do much against Sheik's wall of fairs, but keep in mind that you can. Don't be afraid to get under her and usmash/utilt.

-I think there was something else I wanted to talk about, but I don't remember. Maybe I'll rant more about this match-up tomorrow.

@choknater: Bthrow is really good in ICs dittos. I think it's the most reliable way you've got of separating your rival inuits. Also, dthrow -> dair usually works against other ICs mains, because who the **** knows how ICs should DI out of other ICs' CGs.

If you can separate the other ICs, your first priority should be to keep them apart. Killing Nana isn't as trivial as it seems with ICs, so I don't think it's usually best to chase after her with bloodlust. Also,since most ICs panic a little when Nana is away, your enemy will probably play dumber than usual and you can exploit this.

Brainstorming:

If the other Nana isn't at a high enough percentage to KO with some random smash, you might be able to carry off the stage with shffl'd nairs and spike her with fair. The obvious threat here is the other Popo, who is still probably nearby; you might be able to do something like have your Nana blizzard and while he is waiting for that to end or doing something to get around it, you could chase his Nana and KO her. I'd be a bit worried about leaving my own Nana vulnerable when doing this, but he'd probably have a hard time gimping or otherwise substantially ****** Nana without his own fine lady.

-I think desynched ice block/blizzard camping might work well against Sopo for the same reason it works on Luigi; namely, ice blocks make his ground approach even more sluggish than it already is and he can't reliably approach from above to punish blizzard since he's also sluggish in the air. I'm not sure how desynching would work against a pair of ICs, though; I'd guess that it would be better to stay synched, as is almost always the case.

-Since ICs suck at protecting themselves below and are really good at protecting themselves from above, it's definitely good to keep the other ICs above you. Since you both probably like being glued to the ground, I'm not sure how often you can take advantage of this, though. Usmash/utilt are really hard to land in ICs dittos and I don't think uthrow is as good as bthrow most of the time. Maybe if you get the other ICs separated, you can uthrow or dthrow -> usmash or something to send the other Popo upwards and harass him from below while his Nana tries to get back to him. Maybe you could even get him to try to get away from your pressure and leave his Nana more vulnerable in the process. It's probably easier to take advantage of this aerial disparity in Sopo dittos.

-If you're edgeguarding Sopo, and he's recovering high, I think its best to let him land and then grab him, unless you're also Sopo, in which case bair/dsmash/something else is probably better. If Sopo isn't recovery particularly high, the fair meteor spike would probably KO him; he almost definitely already used his double jump and his up+B isn't going to save him if you fair him out of a solo squall.

I'm going to sleep.
 

Razor

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played both sides of the matchup for about 20 mins today. i really can't tell who has the advantage. both chars really screw you if you mess up and sheiks's jab is aaammmaazing in this matchup. as ic's, i just randomly throw out smashes and hope they hit. the grabs are **** too. i duno, this matchup is harder than i thought as ic's
 

ChivalRuse

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both chars really screw you if you mess up and sheiks's jab is aaammmaazing in this matchup.
Yes, Sheik's jab is crazy, but only when she's shield pressuring with it. Rolling away is a pretty safe way to escape this. Sometimes when a Sheik is SH fairing she'll instinctively dash attack when you roll, so be prepared to CC/shield it.

The thing about Sheik's retreating SH fair and variations is that she's susceptible to being "caught" when she lands. With correct timing, you can wave jab > grab/wavesmash her or catch her with a dash attack if she's not prepared. But, assuming she's already on top of your shield, chipping away with fairs, jabs, and dsmashes, you can wait for an opportunity to wavedash backward out of shield (wavedashing through her is too risky because of her dsmash) to get her out of your hair or, if you are feeling more confident, retreating SH out of shield and fair to cover your escape.

For me, Sheik's dsmash is the most disheartening move, because it's well adapted for separating the climbers, and I feel like I always get clipped with it when my wavedash spacing is slightly off.
 

*P*L*U*R*

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The sheik I play against camps Bairs and needles all the time. I think the thing that helps me out a little is when I picture a rectangle that's as high as her jump height and as wide as her hitboxes. and stay outside of it. I dash into that rectangle to bait the bair/fair and then dash out. When she throws it out, you can sometimes catch her extended leg with a dash attack or catch her out of the small amount of lag. At really low percents, Dash attack sometimes leads to grabs. other times, you just uair repeatedly. or Uair > Nair if they're close to the edge.
 

choknater

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bair eh? that's new

i generally think fairs are more effective cuz sheik has better options when she's facing you

bairs is definitely a good idea though, maybe fair spamming sheiks can add that to their game against ic's
 

choknater

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haha yeah that seems like it would be tough to deal with

hmmm....


i feel the melee character boards are beocming more active :)
 

ChivalRuse

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Shu bairs a lot against ICs. It seems to work pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrowCN4LZ_Y
Shu here demonstrating that bairs can work. I'd say they're too unreliable, though. The sweetspot on Sheik's bair is on her heel, which is nowhere near the ground (even if you fast fall it and delay the hitbox). Unless you super space it, you'll be hitting a ton of weak bairs, which are susceptible to being CC'ed.

So, while bair > ftilt is, in all appearances, a pretty and natural string, most Sheiks won't get away with it. They'll eat a CC dsmash or even a CC grab at low percents, if they're that ambitious.
 

*P*L*U*R*

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LAtely, I've been WDing back into ftilts against foxes that approach me with nair. If angled upwards, it seems like it would be hard for a fox to out prioritize. Ftilt's hitbox is narrow, but it's still disjointed. Against unsuspecting player's ftilt can lead into a nair or a Dash attack, both of which can give you grabs at low percents. IT seems moderately successful against the foxes I play. It has quick recovery also in case you miss it.

I've been thinking about replacing WDback Ftilt with a retreating Bair. I think Bair has more range and only 4 frames of lag when autocancelled. It also does better damage and can knock fox down, leading into a tech-chase. You can also do crazy things like Retreatign Bair -> Dash Attack that seem really legit and catch alot of people off guard. If that feels unsafe, It's easy to pivot desynch a jab out of it to throw nana in with a dash attack just to gauge their reaction.

Note, you guys are better than me so tell me what you think.
 

ChivalRuse

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Note, you guys are better than me so tell me what you think.
Nah, I suck. Where are Chok and The Phoenix? Fools know what they're talking about.

I like SH tricks. Like you mentioned with retreating bairs. Those are safe and cool and all. I like being aggressive. I'll, like, turn my back - and the other guy's going "uh oh; bair's coming". I'll wavedash backwards and SH to make a split second assessment of my spacing (*). If my opponent reactively shields I can quickly bair his shield, l-cancel quickly > dsmash (hoping for a shield poke ... plus it's just plain awesome IC harassment). Or ... if I'm feeling creative and I know my opponent's going to hold that shield, I can forebear to throw out a bair and instead make it an empty SH > waveland through the dude and grab him from behind. ^_^

*A lot of players will have dash danced away from you by this point. If so, again, I can waveland > utilt, using the long hitbox to clip your foe out of his dash dance.
 

*P*L*U*R*

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I hosted a Low tier tournament last week and I was playing SoPo(Who is apparently Mid-tier? Not aware of this) and I noticed how good of a comboer Sopo is. He reminds me of a low-tier CF/MArio in a way. Or at least, I play him like one. He has good grabs and his aerials are pretty good(except Dair lol).

Fair is a good combo starter too. It pops characters up for a string of hits and i think the stun's long enough that you can pull off a second Fair to spike them down. I pulled off a combo that was like Dashdance->Fair-> Nair-> Grab-> Dthrow-> Dthrow to edge-> Fsmash.

I think I've caught standing opponents with a fulljump Uair before. When it connects it pops them up and puts them in the air RIGHT next to you.
 

ChivalRuse

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I need to bthrow more with my SoPo. Wobbles does this all the time and follows it up with a tech chase / dsmash. I like to think of it as a version of Marth's dthrow.

You can mix it up with dthrow tech chasing on fast fallers as well. I tend to dthrow Falcon/spacies and proceed from there; but most people aren't prepared for a bthrow. Especially if they DI in front of you it can prepare them for a missed tech and they can easily eat a dsmash or a thunders combo.
 

KirbyKaze

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B-throw is good, but I think the classic D-throw is the best except when B-throw will force them near an edge, thus limiting their tech options. Or if it will lead to them being not on the stage, or if they can be comboed for survival DI against it (only applicable vs floaties).

Then again, I suck with them, and I'm overlooking the speed difference between B-throw and D-throw, which makes D-throw pretty much guaranteed to have proper DI against it every time so...

*shrug*

Mind**** I guess?
 

ChivalRuse

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B-throw is good, but I think the classic D-throw is the best except when B-throw will force them near an edge, thus limiting their tech options. Or if it will lead to them being not on the stage, or if they can be comboed for survival DI against it (only applicable vs floaties).

Then again, I suck with them, and I'm overlooking the speed difference between B-throw and D-throw, which makes D-throw pretty much guaranteed to have proper DI against it every time so...

*shrug*

Mind**** I guess?
Yea. Mindgames and mix-ups. Again, I compared ICs' bthrow to Marth's dthrow because the throwing animation is short; thus, your opponent has less time to react (i.e., tech).
 

choknater

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Ahhh wow, IC's vs Puff is confusing. Sometimes I ****, sometimes it's really hard.

Ahhh I love aggressive dairs vs puff
 

Wobbles

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I use whichever throw will put them near the edge of the stage and make tech-chasing easier; I also pretty much only do this against fast fallers, since b-throwing a Peach usually gets you nothing. It *can* throw some characters onto a platform, and on FoD, PS and YS you can up-smash through the platforms so that's an okay setup. You can also waveland tech-chase into d-smash for a KO, so against... let's say, Marth on Battlefield, it's not *that* unlikely that b-throw will be a good setup for a finisher.

Against Puff b-throw combos into f-air if she DIs into you, but you almost always want to d-throw and combo into u-air for the KO.
 

Kyu Puff

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I can quickly bair his shield, l-cancel quickly > dsmash (hoping for a shield poke ... plus it's just plain awesome IC harassment).
Just wanted to say that more people should use this. Usually I use a shff auto-canceled b-air -> d-smash, but I've been trying to do some research into how many frames they have to escape before the d-smash, and whether a delayed l-canceled b-air would be better.



Tourney tomorrow and I'm scared of Peach. YS or PS or campy fox for counterpick?
 

choknater

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kyu puff did u figure out which ones is better? cuz i also have wondered about that, i usually do autocancel bair

and go campy fox on PS :p
 

ChivalRuse

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Personally, I delay and l-cancel it because the hitbox goes a little lower, which I prefer. Also, with the auto-cancelled bair, you have to commit to it as soon as you SH, whereas with the delayed bair, you have the option not to even use it.
 

Fly_Amanita

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Tourney tomorrow and I'm scared of Peach. YS or PS or campy fox for counterpick?
If you actually have a Fox, that's probably a better choice.

ICs vs. Peach is obnoxious, but winnable. If you can cope with FC aerials, catch turnips, and not run into stupid dsmashes, you can probably manage it.
 

Wobbles

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Peach has a really annoying float height where she can tickle the top of your head with d-air through your shield; if she just keeps d-airing it makes it really hard to up-tilt or up-smash her out of it. Her air control makes b-airing her a pain too, because if you whiff she's almost always got a guaranteed punish :(

I tried to start using jumping blizzards but if she just DIs up and in she'll wind up above you, free to cream you with whatever she wants.

It's a really, really annoying matchup. Everything she has pretty much beats everything you've got, and the only thing you can do is try to bait moves at dangerously close range and get her to whiff. You can punish things like f-smash and d-smash with grabs but only if you're absolutely ready to pounce.

Ideally you want to get her above you at a distance where you can safely u-air. Build damage and keep her in a position where she can't control her float approaches. Hell, *I* wind up being the platform camper half the time just so she'll go high and I can try to get beneath her.

If you don't have lots of practice and a high threshold for frustration, pick a different character.
 

choknater

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i just use whoever vs peach now lol

i know the matchup with like every character above ic's on the tier list

it just depends on what stage i'm on
 

Fly_Amanita

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Sometimes I'll have Nana full jump blizzard against Peach. I don't like synched full jump blizzards for reasons similar to Wobbles', but having only Nana blizzard lets your Popo hit Peach with uair or something and maintain a decent position. Then again, desynching is really risky against Peach, and setting up a situation in which Nana is free to full jump blizzard is hard due to turnips and whatnot, so this should be used sparingly, if at all.

Popo might be able to sort of platform camp Peach on a few levels. It requires having a lead, clearly, but Popo's pretty maneuverable on platforms and has a solid light-shield to protect himself. I'm starting to like doing this when down to only Popo because it forces the Peach to be the aggressor and for whatever reason I find it easier to hit people with random crap when they're on the offensive. I feel most comfortable doing this on Battlefield, but I haven't tested it a lot and wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't work well in the long run.

I relied on secondaries for this match-up until I realized early this year that I still do better against Peach with ICs than with my Marth/Fox/Luigi. My secondaries are garbage, though, so this isn't saying much.


In other news, the only set of mine that was recorded at Genesis is up. The quality is awful and the first several minutes of the last round are nigh unwatchable, but I figured I might as well post them since I don't have any other recent sets up. This was against Eddy, the Luigi from TJ who sent Colbol to losers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz4YHKeJJV0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8DwvuiCuvs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkH1-R4p3VY&feature=related



In other other news, I need to step my game up.
 

choknater

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ahhh

luigi, peach, and ganon are hard counters imo. marth is up there but i'd still go ic's against him

sigh i dont play melee enough to bother with trying to beat them with ic's anymore. for luigi peach and ganon i'd rather go spacies now
 

Fly_Amanita

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I honestly don't think Luigi is that bad if you camp him properly.

Oh, and I actually got 5th at the last tournamant I went to, not 7th, chok. I lost to Joe and Kira; I feel terrible whenever I lose to Sheik; even though we don't actually counter her, I feel like I should be winning that match-up.
 

choknater

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hm joe is tough, hes really good against ic's and even harder for me than kfc for some reason :C

ahh kira, hes good but step it up man u got this
 

Fly_Amanita

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SoCal Foxes are definitely getting better at the match-up. Joe used to be over-aggressive, but just recently he's been a bit more patient; I used to be able to just nair/fair/dash attack/jab/etc. a lot and hope he runs into it, but that doesn't work so well now.

You should play Lovage when he goes to Norcal. If you can figure out something that works against him, let me know.
 

Fly_Amanita

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I think he's going there for college.

Playing him with ICs has gotten depressing. He beats me/embrace/azn lep pretty badly now. I go Marth against him now, lol. You play pretty differently than us, though, so I've got faith in you.
 

choknater

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haha we'll see. i usually have off and on days with fox. shine gimps against nana are pretty gay ahhhh, oh well

i'll do my best
 
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