Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Fly_Amanita]

Gah, I just lost to two French players. They're definitely good, but I kind of feel like I let Socal down.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

lol you lost to french people. you didn't just let socal down. you let AMERICA down.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

It's cool, I was really representing the USSR rather than the USA.

 

[Hozart]

For now, I'm just going to experiment with things like blizzard and desynched blocks. Also, I'm going to see if I can find any merit in SH > waveland > SHFFL'ed aerials. I really feel like there has to be a gold mine somewhere in ICs metagame that allows you to not depend on getting that grab AS much. I really really really really want to just unlock some more of this character's potential.

Ice Climbers are a very deep character.

Think about this: SSBM game has been out for a very long time, and for a very long while, we believed that Chu dat was the epitome of all things Icys, and that if you were going to learn anything, you better follow in the Path of the Chu.

Then Wobbles discovered (or more apt, abused) the infinite, and now he's created and popularized the Hand-off, which will improve our effectiveness against all characters if mastered.

Jigglypuff, born of the Mang0 subtype, has made a comeback, and the next tier-list will certainly have Jigglypuff higher up. We must do the same; learn the technical skillz that you must, for there are many to master. I will be working at this, and, if all goes according to plan (so far it hasn't, the Icys are extremely technical!), August 8th I should have something. Otherwise, Wobbles and Fly Amanita, watch them.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

There is nothing to learn from watching me play.

 

[Purist]

hey fly, how do u do that crazy nana edge guard desynch thing. i saw u do that at genesis and i was like, ****, that some crazy ****

 

[Fly_Amanita]

That's the belay out of shield desynch. Hit up+B while shielding and Nana will jump while Popo does the sopo version of belay on the ground. Just make sure not to wait to long before hitting B; otherwise you do a normal up+B.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

there are times where it seems like nana has less sheildstun than popo. there have been times where i'm being sheild-pressured and i try to bair out of sheild. popo rolls and nana will actually do the bair. its worked out really cool sometimes where the opponent gets baired and i react quick enough to grab them as they fly towards me. it makes people gasp.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm pretty sure I know why that happens and it doesn't have to do with differences in shield stun; here's my best explanation, which assumes that there is no difference in shield stun between Popo and Nana:

Let's say that some attack hits both ICs' shields at exactly or almost exactly the same time (I'm talking about a difference significantly less than six frames). Within six frames of Popo's shield stun ending, you input a jump command, and just after Popo's shield stun ends, input a bair command with the C-stick. Popo is in shield stun when he receives the jump command, so he doesn't jump. Nana, however, receives the jump command six frames later, which is after her shield stun is over, and does jump. The C-stick makes Nana bair, but since Popo is still shielding, the C-stick makes him roll.

I'm betting that if you did something like this with dair, Popo would spot dodge; with nair, Popo would shield grab; with uair, Popo would jump, etc.

 

[Purist]

can sum1 tell me how to charge a smash during a grab cuz whenever i try to do it, i always end up throwing the guy b4 i can smash

 

[Vts]

can sum1 tell me how to charge a smash during a grab cuz whenever i try to do it, i always end up throwing the guy b4 i can smash

many ways

the way that i do it is have popo jab and before that animation in ton smash which way you want on the c-stick and slide to A really fast and nana will be charging.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yay, I beat Lucky in tournament. He beat me in losers later on, but I'm still glad to finally take a set off him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yay, I beat Lucky in tournament. He beat me in losers later on, but I'm still glad to finally take a set off him.

Congrats.

Lucky is freaking amazing.

 

[Finch]

Good job fly!

 

[Fly_Amanita]

This board is so dead that I'm almost tempted to make a thread about something. I just need to find something that I actually feel qualified to talk about.

 

[Finch]

Can we talk about combos against problem characters that you can't chaingrab like marth, puff, samus, luigi, etc? Obviously the most efficient way to kill them is still to grab them a lot, especially since grab, blizzard, dthrow upsmash kills them all at pretty early percents, but what is the most efficient thing to do when you get a grab at low percents? I've been trying to experiment with followups to dthrow and various aerials, like dthrow > nair > uair/dair, or dthrow > uair > uair or whatever.

Something I don't see many IC players thinking much about is mixing up followups to grabs. Yes, floaty characters can get out of the dthrow dair chaingrab simply by DIing up, but what if we can make them DI away from us by finding really good ways of punishing this escape DI? If you grab jiggs at 50 and make her want to DI away from you to escape a ridiculous 30-40 damage combo, then you can just dthrow dair her, regrab, and then kill her quickly with upsmash.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I always just try to Dthrow fair spike tech chase characters i can't CG

 

[Fly_Amanita]

If the other character is trying to get out of a CG by DIing up, I usually just dthrow -> usmash and try to follow it up with uairs. You can also do weird stuff like dthrow -> reverse nair -> usmash. I'm pretty sure I've also gotten floaties with dthrow -> reverse nair -> grab, but I don't recall how they were DIing and nair only works in this sort of fashion at pretty low percentages. There's always dthrow -> reverse dair -> utilt if the other character is at a too high percentage for dthrow -> usmash to reliably lead into stuff.

These all do pretty decent damage. I probably wouldn't do a lot of these to Jiggs, though. I usually go for bthrow -> fair against Jiggs, but this can be DIed out of. if the Jigglypuff starts DIing away such that you can't reach her with fair, I bet dthrow -> reverse nair or dair -> grab could work.

I also don't like dthrow -> usmash against Samus, but I can't pinpoint why. I don't have enough Samus experience to say much about her in the first place.

Against Luigi, I usually try to get him above me as quickly as possible since I'd be worried about him nairing out of any combo. Again, dthrow -> usmash is fine. I bet dthrow -> sh uair would be a decent replacement for this at higher percentages, although most of the time I dthrow -> fsmash then. Actually, I'd be too worried about Luigi's nair to dry to dthrow -> dair him even if I think he's DIing wrong, plus he's so bad in the air that I think it's always a good idea to send him upwards. For this reason, I like uthrow if Nana is away/dead.

 

[Kyu Puff]

If they DI up, d-throw -> reverse d-air -> u-tilt -> b-air is probably best in terms of damage. It backfires if they're trying to SDI though.

 

[choknater]

reverse nair... sigh fly i miss my melee disc!

i wanna try that now

cuz i usually do reverse dair usmash but it doesnt have enough hitstun, sometimes i get punished or for some reason it doesnt connect

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

Just out of curiosity, but would this social thread also be a Q & A thread for IC's? I just have random questions I'd like to ask to people who've been using the IC's longer than I have, that's all.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yeah, you can ask your questions here.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I always just try to Dthrow fair spike tech chase characters i can't CG

That sounds sexy. I don't know why I never thought of that.

BTW I've been doing fthrow fair and it seems to hit reliably. Is dthrow fair optimal?

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

Just one question for now.

When you De-Synch Nana and charge a Smash, when is it most effective?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

That sounds sexy. I don't know why I never thought of that.

BTW I've been doing fthrow fair and it seems to hit reliably. Is dthrow fair optimal?

I think they're interchangable. I should start doing Fthrow though because I think Fthrow deals more percent.

I used to altgrab characters that I couldn't CG butI'm no good at it now. I'd suggest Altgrabs because you can follow up really easily. no matter which throw is, you have a guaranteed followup. If Nana D or Fthrows, you can regrab. If she bthrows, that's either a tech-chase or an aerial, depending on character and percentage. For uthrow, the animation for the throw is so long that if you react fast enough, you can full jump Fair them back down. If they meteor-cancel, great. They're above you. With no double jump.

LOL


Also, the only possible time that is remotely effective to desynch and charge a smash with nana is when edgeguarding so that you can grab the edge with popo

 

[ChivalRuse]

Does anyone here tech chase with desynch ice block to grab? I've never see anyone do that, and I just feel like ICs have so many options when tech chasing. I'm always too slow when trying to get that grab, and ice blocks are ridiculous for slowing someone down on the ground. Basically they can't jump over them for fear of getting uaired, and shielding them fails usually because occasionally it will shield poke them. Even if they successfully shield it, you can just go right up and grab them. Rolling away doesn't work because the block just keeps going and still hits, and rolling toward just gets them dsmashed.

I feel like fthrow fair can really set up these situations well. It would be especially useful against characters who can't be CG'ed. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Wobbles]

ChivalRuse; I use it sometimes with b-throw iceblock on fast fallers; when they miss the tech the iceblock forces a reset and gets you another free grab, typically at the edge of the stage.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I do bthrow -> bthrow ice block when I mess up a dthrow. I don't like tech-chasing since I think the ICs generally have better options out of grabs.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Oh, I didn't think even think about thunders combo with the ice block. So do you do bthrow, while having Nana jump and reverse aerial ice block?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

That's how I do it.

 

[Finch]

I don't think you even have to make nana jump. If you just press back and b she should shoot the ice block in that direction.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think the turnaround would delay the ice block.

Edit --

Magus, can a shielding opponent escape shff auto-canceled b-air to d-smash before the d-smash comes out?

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

What's a good anti-aerial attack against Sheik's F-Air?

 

[choknater]

not many options... usmash i guess

but at the angle of sheik's shffl fair it's just really hard to counter in general

i can imagine nana blizzard can work to stop the short hop from happening. maybe spaced fsmash/dsmash, or if u can wd inside and get a utilt/usmash which is pretty risky. ahhh it's a hard move to combat

 

[KirbyKaze]

If she's in front and slightly above, it doesn't exist. Not with ICs, anyway. I suppose for a real answer I'd say up-angled F-tilts but that's a pretty poor answer. U-smash or F-smash will win but they're too slow to be realistic options.

If she's above you directly, or mostly above you, U-tilt or (if you have time) Uair.

Ideally you take advantage of her large short hop and get under her. Getting out of the way is also advisable.

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

Okay, it makes sense to not to counter the F-Air, and it seems more of a reasonable option to avoid it.

I practice with an aggressive Sheik player, and I usually try to Shield Grab the F-Air, but if SHFFLd, it breaks down the shield easily.

 

[choknater]

yeah you can't really punish the fair. that's sheik's main way to fight ic's anyway, by spamming shffl'd fairs, either defensively or aggressively.

that's how fighting ic's has always been: if you have an unpunishable move that they can't grab, spam it against their shield. it forces ic's to play a different game that doesnt mean trying to work in a grab. when ic's start getting offensive with dash attacks or wd back bairs, they are still pretty good. but not NEARLY as effective as other top tiers at being aggressive. still possible though

 

[Fly_Amanita]

If you're in a position where an up-angled ftilt can conceivably work, usmash should work better.

Just try to not occupy the space where Sheik can fair your shield without being punished. Stay a bit outside that range and try to guess when she'll short hop and wd -> usmash/utilt (usmash is more reliable due its wider hitbox) or bair. Fsmash also works well on some Sheiks. Sheik can deal with these with ftilt, but you can CC that. If you're really close to her after you CC the ftilt or if the Sheik is dumb, you can grab her. Otherwise, she can jab or short hop before you can grab her. Jab is hard to deal with, but close range short hops are easy to punish.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How about instead of intercepting it, roll back > desynched ice block / blizzard > grab.

 

[choknater]

How about instead of intercepting it, roll back > desynched ice block / blizzard > grab.

a patient sheik is not going to fall for that

well, she could get hit by the blizzard

but getting grabbed? probably not