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Social General Ice Climber Chat

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
My set against Connor and my first set against Zhu are up on Stab's channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/stabbedbyahippie

I'm guessing grand finals will be up later tonight.

The odd thing is I still hate watching myself play and I feel like I make so many errors and poor decisions. I'm not sure whether my discontentment with my current skill level is a good motivator to improve or just another source of stress.
 

PokemonMasterIRL

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
3,001
Location
Popping and locking butt naked.
I have a scrubby question and I am kinda mad that I don't remember and have to ask, but how are you catching turnips off level as you are recovering Fly?



WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW at your last kill on the second game of WF.


Just wow, Nana stepping it up.

I love how you camp the platforms on RC. I wish I could do the fullycharged Fsmash CG, that is the only one that I can't do or maybe I just don not understand it well enough.


EDIT #3
WOW 3 stocking Zhu?
Regrabbing off of Nana's bthrow?

All hail mother Russia.

**** Fly, ****.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
The odd thing is I still hate watching myself play and I feel like I make so many errors and poor decisions. I'm not sure whether my discontentment with my current skill level is a good motivator to improve or just another source of stress.
IMO it´s a proof ICs are the hardest character in the game to learn, even though doing well and beating good players by good understanding in how to play them doesn´t mean you´ve mastered them^^, just keep improving and don´t care too much about small technical mistakes and it´ll probably be easier going into matches and play well.
Atleast dont think of them when playing in the tournament, when you practice is another thing....
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
Zhu played really sloppy. I was more impressed by Fly beating Connor.
Zhu definitely has issues with the match-up. I feel like I got kind of lucky with the brackets since I didn't have to play McCain, who has beaten me in the past.

edit: How do you guys feel about MLG picking up Brawl? I'm not sure what to think. A lot of Melee players seem really concerned, but I'm not convinced that it will deter a lot of would-be Melee players. I don't understand people very well in general, though.
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
It´s good MLG picks up brawl, the metagame is way more evolving there then in melee for the moment, 3 players that wins tournaments(in the US) with different characters and no puffdittos in the finals, melee only players should step it up making matches more exciting by getting faster and cover more options like lot of players did before. I´t not like it will affect melee anyway, it will still be lots of tournaments in it^^

EDIT: But yes, getting the old MLGrules back would probably have been making sets a bit more interesting...
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
not true

i just watched some recent vids from vc7 of ally m2k and adhd. they've gotten sooooooo good

man

good set fly. u have what it takes
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
I was messing around with a systematic edgeguarding procedure that seemed to work pretty well against my friend's Fox/Falco, but it still needs refinement:

If the opponent is pretty far away from the edge:
Just do a regular edgehog. I usually desynch Blizzard with Nana so she doesn't kill herself (I once lost a set because Nana suicided during a routine edgehog). If the opponent is that awkward distance away where he may just be close enough to grab the edge, do the Belay desynch to hog with Nana and then just use a smash.

If the opponent is at a medium distance from the edge:
Get next to the edge and try to react to forward-B. If he does it right at you or at the edge you can usually hit him unless he positions it perfectly. After you jab him and he falls, drop off Nair or Bair while his up-B is starting up. I think you can do a rejump Nair again and still recover with forward-B but I may be wrong. If he forward-Bs over your head then it's a free grab.

If your opponent is close to the edge:
Desynch a blizzard, time an ice block so it hits him very soon after blizzard does, then try to smash him out of up-B. If he's coming back from under the stage, edgehog during blizzard so he doesn't just grab it.

Overall it's somewhat reliable. The only thing that's problematic for me is Fox/Falco sweetspotting their up-Bs. Anyone have suggestions to refine this further? Consistently edgeguarding Fox/Falco is such a critical part of the matchup since it's really easy to get them offstage.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
6,915
Location
Indianapolis
I would advise down-smash but if they go high bair. I don't know why the ice climbers couldn't get away with it I mean I can think of 3 people that could just do the same thing but ice climbers down-smash is faster and bair slower.

But yeah I agree you have to do something hard and confusing to feel good about yourself.

I like to wd off grab the edge and bair them coming on and have nana F-smash as I bair you can hit them low and high like you can land a bair below the edge. I've only been doing this resently so I don't know if you ever will need the f-smash. Also I can't seem to get her to down-B in time to be useful maybe up-tilt would be useful
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
If Fox is doing side B at a height lower than roughly the level of the ICs' heads and you're right at the edge, you could try shooting ice blocks. They can function kind of like jabs here, but are able to intercept sweetspotted side-Bs, too, which a lot of technical spacies can do pretty consistently. I don't do this much in this position, though, and there are probably better options if you're looking for a nice, deterministic way of edgeguarding space animals.

A couple miscellaneous things about edgeguarding space animals; if the space animal is recovering low, I like belay OoS -> Nana edgehog and then either charge a smash with Popo or grab once the space animal comes close to the edge; the latter is probably better in theory. I think I talked about this when discussing belay OoS earlier.

Another thing worth throwing out there is edgehogging when space animals recover high. A lot of spacies who up-B high will try to sweetspot the edge. If I think my opponent likes to do this, I stand sort of close to the edge and face it, and then right before the directional part of the up-B starts, turn around and wavedash -> fastfall edgehog. I've gotten a lot of low-ish percentage KOs that way. Plus, once you kill somebody this way, a lot of the time they'll start aiming their up-B such that they land on stage in this position instead, which is easy to punish.


Random thoughts about Falco's lasers:

We all know Choknater's trick of approaching Falco with synched short blizzard when he's laser camping; Popo takes the laser whereas Nana's blizzard gets through, which can be nice for landing unexpected grabs or applying pressure. The downside is you get punished really badly if Falco doesn't shoot a laser when you expect him to.

I think there are a couple better alternatives, although I'm not 100% positive they work since I haven't tested them. The first one is run forward and when Popo gets hit by a laser, have Nana blizzard. This serves a similar purpose as Choknater's trick, but has the nice advantage that you can do it totally on reaction and don't have to worry about getting ***** if Falco doesn't laser, in which case you can do some other attack, shield, retreat, etc. instead.

The other idea is really similar: wavedash at a laser while facing forward and have Nana blizzard when a laser hits Popo. I think this would be a little better than the last option I listed. For one thing, you can do this out of shield, whereas the prior idea isn't viable then. Another thing is that in the prior option, you need to be able dash long enough such that Nana can crouch and then blizzard, whereas there is no such issue here. Also, I think you can send Nana forward a bit if you wavedash very shortly before the laser hits you, whereas Nana will blizzard behind or in roughly the same spot as Popo with the last method.

I still think the first idea could be useful by virtue of it presumably being pretty easy to do on reaction. Or, I could just be forgetting something about Nana's AI that would prevent any of this from working at all. >_<
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
A general frametrap(I´m quite sure it works like one) I like to use and want to get really good is to edgeguard with autocanceled bair>dsmash, it´s fast, can apply high pressure and sometimes go through shields. Backthrow from close to the ledge to read their jump with a well placed IB is good to get them in a bad situation.

But this is more from when they get back up on the stage, mostly after they get the ledge.

About the lasers, both climbers WD charged Fsmash can work too, since only pne climber will get hit and you´ll just have to release the button.
 

*P*L*U*R*

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
5,143
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Dance to express, not impress!
Here's one that's simple and effective wavedash off and grab the edge, nana automatically jumps back on stage. Ledgehop and reverse iceblock, only popo will perform the ice block and make nana charge a smash.


Or, shorthop -> fastfall and shorthop again so that only popo does it -> sopo ice block -> nana smash
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Zhu definitely has issues with the match-up. I feel like I got kind of lucky with the brackets since I didn't have to play McCain, who has beaten me in the past.

edit: How do you guys feel about MLG picking up Brawl? I'm not sure what to think. A lot of Melee players seem really concerned, but I'm not convinced that it will deter a lot of would-be Melee players. I don't understand people very well in general, though.
I was really sad that day. Melee won't be picked up ever according to MLG leaders themselves this past week. Great job beating Zhu. Honestly he is my 2nd fav player besides Darkrain =[ You are making your way up that list tho.
I AM STILL HAVING A REAL PROBLEM:

I still can't consistently shorthop the dair with nana when doing dthrow dair. Is this a mental block or what? I can shorthop 100% when out of a grab. I guess the movement of y>cstick down is the issue?

Also, how do I know if my copy of melee is the fast headbutt-during-blizzard version? Is there a marking somewhere?
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
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choknater
about dthrow dair - keep practicing my friend :)

about headbutt blizzard - just test it.

man, blizzard and headbutt is not a very good moveset in pokemon

and yeah i agree that there are a lot of options now in the falco ic's matchup that zhu is not taking cuz hes scared. i remember one time phil or rey said 'he should stop being afraid of what the other person can do' and i should just think he should focus on how much falco *****. there were many times he could've just taken control, approached, and got off.

but apparently fly amanita defense and setups are TOOOOO GOOD
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
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Claremont, CA
I use Y and the C-stick for dthrow -> dair and I also used to suck at it. What I find easiest is to have Nana short hop quickly after the dthrow so there's a decently large gap between when you press Y and when you hit down on the C-stick.

edit: more brainstorming on Falco's lasers: walk forward -> Nana blizzard through lasers probably works, too. Walk forward -> ice block and wavedash forward -> ice block should also work, although blizzard is probably better most of the time.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned via Warnings
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I use X (like a noob) but like I just checked I geuss I can down-throw dair in 2x of course not as good but I can SH dair solidly. maybe it's how your pressing the button or mental I don't know can you do it in 2x sh not asking for the full SHFFl but if you can do it 2x shing then it's totally mental.

But to me I think tech skill has always been like a surprise just one day your really good at wding or what ever. Like playing as pichu I figured out a lot of fox stuff and tech skill heck that's how I learned how to waveshine and one day I just found out that WTF I can double laser out of the shine? but only with the stick and I recently have been able to shine SHFFL like in the tech skill videos really fast.

really it will come this isn't impossible unlike air de-synceing to combo
 

Vanitas

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
812
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Final Destination
good luck to Motel Vacaville lol thats the right mindset!

does anyone know how to do the chaingrab Fly does on fastfallers where he charges a fsmash and hits them with it and then regrabbing? I tried it but it only results me lightshielding with popo...
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I get demoralized too easily and I think that prevents me from being as consistent as I wish I could be. Oh well.

If anybody cares, all of the anti-laser tactics I was just talking about work.
 

Kyu Puff

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
2,258
Location
Massachusetts
I don't think Peach can n-air out of a cg unless she sdi'd away or something. Up+b probably works but isn't her best option because if you don't go for the grab she's vulnerable in the air. And surprisingly a few weeks ago, I tested normal di up and float to escape, but it didn't seem to get out of d-throw d-air; sometimes she couldn't float before she landed, and even when she did float you can standing grab her out of certain parts of it. So... either I messed up her di somehow, or Peach has a harder time escaping than we thought?

Also, yesterday a falco sdi'd down out of my d-throw d-air... and then grabbed my nana...
 
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