ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yup. I've started using it against Peaches a lot lately, and they're like "wtf!".
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
On a related note, I need to do more testing on reverse nair, which I think would be better on some characters at so-and-so percentages. I'm sure it would be really situational, but I bet it has its uses.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
agree with fly
dang chivalruse
im gonna try it now hehe
dang chivalruse
im gonna try it now hehe
Finch
Smash Lord
How did you not know sh reverse dair is possible? It's so good against marth and peach because it confuses them more and they have a harder time figuring out how to get out of it.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i dunno D: i just didnt know
i tried it today
its kinda hard to time but peach is put in such a perfect spot lol
lvl 9 peach was SDIing it in front of me though, hard to react cuz i tried to reverse grab and missed
do u run forward and sh dair or just sh forward with no dash and fair?
i tried it today
its kinda hard to time but peach is put in such a perfect spot lol
lvl 9 peach was SDIing it in front of me though, hard to react cuz i tried to reverse grab and missed
do u run forward and sh dair or just sh forward with no dash and fair?
Finch
Smash Lord
Peach doesn't have to sdi she just has to di up to get out of it. But most players want to di away from you so it works most of the time.
you don't have to dash
you don't have to dash
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yea, you just jump at an angle. It's the same as the regular reverse dair except with a short hop.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
If they DI away from you then you can just use regular D-air chaingrab.
cloudz
Smash Journeyman
what tourneys have you been too??i feel like downsmashing a lot would just get you punisheddd
ShootingStars
Smash Apprentice
can anyone list desyncs i can work on?
the only desync i got going on is the blizzard one
the only desync i got going on is the blizzard one
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm starting to think that the best spaces to control against Peach on a Battlefield-esque stage, aside from possibly the center of the stage, are the inner edges of the outermost platforms. Her turnips are much less threatening here than they are when you're on the ground and ice blocks are probably better here since they can actually hit her out of the air in some cases. I'm guessing that it would be easier to cope with her approaches here than in most other places, since depending on what she does, you could retreat to the top platform, shield, retreat to the other side of the platform, or go to the floor or maybe the center of the stage.
Unlike the top platform, which is where I have usually gone when I feel like camping, you can still apply some pressure to her, largely since you can quickly move to the center of the stage if she decides to retreat and pull turnips or something.
As always, this could end up failing miserably, and I don't expect it to work on a stage as small as Yoshi's, but I'll probably try controlling these parts of the platforms the next time I have to play a Peach on Battlefield or Dreamland.
@Stars: Like I said in the other thread, I think there are only a few desynchs that are really worth knowing, most of which I listed there, IIRC. I could list some more esoteric ones if you're curious, though.
Unlike the top platform, which is where I have usually gone when I feel like camping, you can still apply some pressure to her, largely since you can quickly move to the center of the stage if she decides to retreat and pull turnips or something.
As always, this could end up failing miserably, and I don't expect it to work on a stage as small as Yoshi's, but I'll probably try controlling these parts of the platforms the next time I have to play a Peach on Battlefield or Dreamland.
@Stars: Like I said in the other thread, I think there are only a few desynchs that are really worth knowing, most of which I listed there, IIRC. I could list some more esoteric ones if you're curious, though.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
thanks guys
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I find belay out of shield blizzard to be one of the most useful desynchs.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
sorry but all I really do is down-smash, camp, and move around. I loooovvvvveeee itttt ssssssssssssooooooooooooooo much. also down-smash is the perfect move to me think of everything it does.
uber fast, disjointed, little lag,edge gaurds, racks up a lot of damage, kill move, chain throws, add in movement to weave in and out to down-smash them, it's a combo, lasts long, ice climbers duck with it.
I mean what doesn't it do? This move alone with the ice climbers is better than about half the cast.
The only thing it doesn't beat is camping but you can upair and camp back.
ShootingStars
Smash Apprentice
do anyone of you have aim or something? i would like some real-time help on my crappy ice climbers 
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I have an AIM account. I'm on pretty often. I might be able to give you some tips and tell you some of the stuff I've figured out.
AIM: ChivalRuse
AIM: ChivalRuse
ShootingStars
Smash Apprentice
thank you so much
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Link to post?
http://www.worldrps.com/advanced.html#Intro
Might interest other players who like to try manipulate their opponents XD (take away the link and you´ll see that last world championchip was two players from the same "crew" facing each other in the final O_O )
Might interest other players who like to try manipulate their opponents XD (take away the link and you´ll see that last world championchip was two players from the same "crew" facing each other in the final O_O )
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm pretty sure everything I said about Peach in my last post here is false, which probably isn't surprising.
@ PMIRL: I actually didn't say exactly that now that I check the thread again, but it was here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268567
@ PMIRL: I actually didn't say exactly that now that I check the thread again, but it was here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268567
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Thanks Fly.
Hmm since this is the general discussion thread, what area's are you working on everyone?
For example, I am feeling pretty good about my cging skill so I am practicing on perfecting the different spacings for wavedash OoS and the timing so I never mess up. I am also working one my edgecanceling and L Cancels, I still forget to L cancel sometimes.
Also I am just working on my movement in general, moving safely and fluidly in and out of shield. Not doing dumb dash dances or overly long wavedashes that dont improve my situation.
Hmm since this is the general discussion thread, what area's are you working on everyone?
For example, I am feeling pretty good about my cging skill so I am practicing on perfecting the different spacings for wavedash OoS and the timing so I never mess up. I am also working one my edgecanceling and L Cancels, I still forget to L cancel sometimes.
Also I am just working on my movement in general, moving safely and fluidly in and out of shield. Not doing dumb dash dances or overly long wavedashes that dont improve my situation.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Right now my biggest weakness is that I don't know match-ups. I got destroyed by Chinesah in a mini-tournament today; he went Marth, and I have no idea how to fight Marth.
I also got wrecked by Vist (a Luigi). That match-up is a mystery to me.
I also got wrecked by Vist (a Luigi). That match-up is a mystery to me.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm taking a page out of Wobbles' book and focusing on mindset more than anything else. I feel that I play well whenever I'm calm; even if my tech skill is off, I still tend to do really well whenever I can think clearly.
Other than that, I just try to come up with miscellaneous stuff for my own amusement more than anything else.
Other than that, I just try to come up with miscellaneous stuff for my own amusement more than anything else.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Marth and Luigi are both hard match ups. So don't beat yourself up to much.
Only real advice I have is learn to punish fsmashes/fsmashes on your shield with wavedash OoS and sometimes when Marth is short hopping stuff you can dash attack under him and pop him up for a good combo/follow up.
I was just talking to Joe about this Wobbles blog is soo good It always leaves me wanting to try harder and to do better. Norcal is talking about this in one of our threads (the CGC one or the NorCal PR) and its turned into a really good discussion, there is a really good KDR quote I like
Also on doing stuff to amuse oneself I have been fooling around with chasing (space animals and marth/falcon/ganons) off level and Fairing or reverse Fairing if they try to hug the level.
Its cute, I will often go out there and get the kill and lose Nana in the process, not sure if it is worth it yet haha.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
This might seem like a stupid question...when does Fair have the meteor spiking trait....like is it at the beginning of fair or more to the ending of Fair?
i <3 doing Fair to Dsmash combos lol...not when it doesnt spike though...
also, just sharing some random thoughts....
i have been doing the Ice Block Lift alot more often and i think its pretty effective in setting up grabs on top of platforms for fastfallers...(as shown in Wobbles' vid of Ice Climbers are Silly or something video)
Does anyone else do this or am i just crazy
i <3 doing Fair to Dsmash combos lol...not when it doesnt spike though...
also, just sharing some random thoughts....
i have been doing the Ice Block Lift alot more often and i think its pretty effective in setting up grabs on top of platforms for fastfallers...(as shown in Wobbles' vid of Ice Climbers are Silly or something video)
Does anyone else do this or am i just crazy
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I'm about 90% sure you have to hit with the end of the fair hitbox (like halfway through the move or later) for it to be a meteor. It might also have something to do with the spacing, but I'm not sure on that one.
Fully charged Fsmash to regrab, details, thanks much, it looks awesome but I can't replicate.
I would be in large support of a thread detailing all of the icees chaingrabs. What characters they work on, and at what percents. This would be an amazing resource if it was well organized, accurate, and accessible. Anyone in support?
I would be in large support of a thread detailing all of the icees chaingrabs. What characters they work on, and at what percents. This would be an amazing resource if it was well organized, accurate, and accessible. Anyone in support?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I actually have an outline for something that was supposed to be a CG guide, but evolved into a more general grab compendium. I never got around to writing most of it since I wasn't sure how to organize it and since I can't give a lot of specific details, especially against uncommon characters. Also, there are a lot of issues that make listing details like what CGs "work" on what characters and what percentages said CGs work difficult, since most CGs are escapable, but to varying degrees. In the incomplete guide, I planned on devoting a lot more time to discussing what sort of situations certain grab combos tend to be good rather than saying things like "This is a CG and it works on these characters at these percentages etc. etc." I really should finish that. Somebody should bug me about that once I get done with finals on Wednesday.
Regarding the fsmash CG on spacies (whether it works reliably on other characters isn't something I'm sure of) , the idea is to have Nana charge fsmash and dthrow with Popo. Assuming your opponent inputs survival DI, they will stay near you after the dthrow. Release the fsmash such that it connects right before your opponent hits the ground, and then grab again during the fsmash hitlag.
Regarding the fsmash CG on spacies (whether it works reliably on other characters isn't something I'm sure of) , the idea is to have Nana charge fsmash and dthrow with Popo. Assuming your opponent inputs survival DI, they will stay near you after the dthrow. Release the fsmash such that it connects right before your opponent hits the ground, and then grab again during the fsmash hitlag.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's kind of tricky. Here are the steps:
1. Grab with Popo.
2. Headbutt with Popo.
3. During the headbutt animation (towards the end of it), start charging an fsmash. Hold A - I repeat: hold A - until later. Don't get impatient and let the fsmash hit them prematurely.
4. Press down to dthrow with Popo. Keep holding A through this step.
5. Wait for the dthrow to happen. They'll go up in the air and start falling toward the ground.
6. Right before your victim hits the ground, let go of A.
7. Press z to grab, or run forward a little and jump cancel a grab with X + Z.
If you follow these steps, with a little practice, you should be able to do this on command.
Works on Fox, Falco, and rarely on Falcon only if they don't DI the dthrow away!
That would be cool. I'm in favor.
In other news, I don't really want to make a new thread for a couple of videos. So here are some tournament matches from yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In3el2GENQw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUQ3gkIbiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpOwSdP6nI
I'd greatly appreciate it if I could get some suggestions, and if you guys could point out some of my big flaws - I have a bunch of them.
Finch
Smash Lord
I've been thinking a lot about what separates good players from great players lately and obviously there are a lot of factors but after watching some shiz videos where he seemed to be playing like a dumb dumb but still won I realized the one super important thing that you always see a lack of when watching lower level players: efficiency.
Many players run around the level, worrying about their spacing, their tech skill, and just thinking how they're going to get the next hit in, but after they get that one hit and maybe try to follow up but get confused about which option to try and just miss or whatever, they go right back to being on neutral territory. What shiz and m2k and every other super high level player does is try to hit their opponent in a certain situation that will give them an opportunity for massive follow up, and they end up taking your stock in 2-3 hits. This is why m2k ledgecamps with marth and sheik. He's not afraid to be aggressive, he just knows that he can be much more efficient with his character by throwing you off the stage than by trying to combo you in the middle of it. This is also why shiz will use the same nair or dair approach with spacies every time-because he knows that if he spaces it right he will be able to shine you and start a huge combo out of it. Every other move fox or falco has is just not as efficient or stupidly effective.
So the point of that is we IC players need to stop doing things like throwing out ftilt against marth when we're frustrated or whatever. We have to figure out what the most efficient move we can land on our opponent is in this situation and capitalize on it.
ChivalRuse I have more specific stuff to say but the first thing I noticed in your matches was that Chinesah was mostly just getting more efficient hits on you. Jab is good in some situations but a lot of players use it way too much and better players will catch on and capitalize. A lot of the time it's better to go straight for the grab. I'm pretty sure the most efficient things to do to marth, especially on yoshi's, is chaingrab him or edgeguard him, so definitely work on both of those. I'll try to say more later.
Marth specifics:
K first thing: STOP HAVING BAD DI WHEN YOU GET FSMASHED. Marth is going to want to fsmash you a lot because you're a floaty and you can't get around it very easily. If you're in the air and in fsmash range, just expect to get hit and be ready to DI up. You died a lot at mid percents because of bad DI when you got fsmashed, and getting non-tipper fsmashed against marth shouldn't really be that bad a situation unless he's killing nana. When you're recovering against marth you have to play a game of patience. Most marths will just keep fsmashing you over and over and slowly build up percent, and you just want to keep getting hit and DIing up until you get into a position where you can trick him and get back to the ledge. Marths who know the matchup well will just dair you lol so just don't get hit off the edge against them.
From grabs: you could have gotten the dthrow dair on chinesahh I'm pretty sure, you just were too slow with it. Don't mess it up. Also marth dies at pretty low percent from upsmash, like around 110 on FD and 90-100 on yoshis, so if you grab him around those percents don't mess up dthrow upsmash. When you grabbed him with sopo you were getting an aerial out of it, but you can explore more efficient options. If he DIs up then upsmash might work better than uair at low percents. If he DIs away you could regrab or try a dash attack and both would get you a decent combo if they connect.
Edgeguarding: I made a huge post on this somewhere else. I was impressed with your use of ledge invincibility with bair, but you have to know when to just stay on the ledge. In the match on yoshi's you baired his recovery twice in a row, but I think if you had just rolled at the right time after the first bair he would have died. Basically against marth you want to make sure he doesn't get in the edge with his up B because that is literally his only good option.
Many players run around the level, worrying about their spacing, their tech skill, and just thinking how they're going to get the next hit in, but after they get that one hit and maybe try to follow up but get confused about which option to try and just miss or whatever, they go right back to being on neutral territory. What shiz and m2k and every other super high level player does is try to hit their opponent in a certain situation that will give them an opportunity for massive follow up, and they end up taking your stock in 2-3 hits. This is why m2k ledgecamps with marth and sheik. He's not afraid to be aggressive, he just knows that he can be much more efficient with his character by throwing you off the stage than by trying to combo you in the middle of it. This is also why shiz will use the same nair or dair approach with spacies every time-because he knows that if he spaces it right he will be able to shine you and start a huge combo out of it. Every other move fox or falco has is just not as efficient or stupidly effective.
So the point of that is we IC players need to stop doing things like throwing out ftilt against marth when we're frustrated or whatever. We have to figure out what the most efficient move we can land on our opponent is in this situation and capitalize on it.
ChivalRuse I have more specific stuff to say but the first thing I noticed in your matches was that Chinesah was mostly just getting more efficient hits on you. Jab is good in some situations but a lot of players use it way too much and better players will catch on and capitalize. A lot of the time it's better to go straight for the grab. I'm pretty sure the most efficient things to do to marth, especially on yoshi's, is chaingrab him or edgeguard him, so definitely work on both of those. I'll try to say more later.
Marth specifics:
K first thing: STOP HAVING BAD DI WHEN YOU GET FSMASHED. Marth is going to want to fsmash you a lot because you're a floaty and you can't get around it very easily. If you're in the air and in fsmash range, just expect to get hit and be ready to DI up. You died a lot at mid percents because of bad DI when you got fsmashed, and getting non-tipper fsmashed against marth shouldn't really be that bad a situation unless he's killing nana. When you're recovering against marth you have to play a game of patience. Most marths will just keep fsmashing you over and over and slowly build up percent, and you just want to keep getting hit and DIing up until you get into a position where you can trick him and get back to the ledge. Marths who know the matchup well will just dair you lol so just don't get hit off the edge against them.
From grabs: you could have gotten the dthrow dair on chinesahh I'm pretty sure, you just were too slow with it. Don't mess it up. Also marth dies at pretty low percent from upsmash, like around 110 on FD and 90-100 on yoshis, so if you grab him around those percents don't mess up dthrow upsmash. When you grabbed him with sopo you were getting an aerial out of it, but you can explore more efficient options. If he DIs up then upsmash might work better than uair at low percents. If he DIs away you could regrab or try a dash attack and both would get you a decent combo if they connect.
Edgeguarding: I made a huge post on this somewhere else. I was impressed with your use of ledge invincibility with bair, but you have to know when to just stay on the ledge. In the match on yoshi's you baired his recovery twice in a row, but I think if you had just rolled at the right time after the first bair he would have died. Basically against marth you want to make sure he doesn't get in the edge with his up B because that is literally his only good option.
ShootingStars
Smash Apprentice
i added you on AIM finch, im messy4444
@ chivalruse
i think you could of wavelanded more on FD... even there's no levels, it gives you more options when landing; everytime you jump you try to do something, and the enemy is gonna anticipate that
my 0 cents? lol
i dont know if you know this but the faster you press B the higher the ice climber will go when recovering... sorry if im mistaken it just seemed like you didnt do it
@ chivalruse
i think you could of wavelanded more on FD... even there's no levels, it gives you more options when landing; everytime you jump you try to do something, and the enemy is gonna anticipate that
my 0 cents? lol
i dont know if you know this but the faster you press B the higher the ice climber will go when recovering... sorry if im mistaken it just seemed like you didnt do it
he used it as a mixup, to hit marth with it to avoid being knocked out again =Pi added you on AIM finch, im messy4444
i dont know if you know this but the faster you press B the higher the ice climber will go when recovering... sorry if im mistaken it just seemed like you didnt do it
Good. A combination of what you just described and what I was hoping for would be optimal. I do think that we should include general "This is a CG and it works on these chars" stuff. Of course, it should be more interesting than that, and it needs to include good times, stage position, etc to use them. Of course, most chaingrabs are escapeable, but I don't think any climber is abstaining from ever using dthrow dair anytime soon. We should list all we know at all relevant percents so we can have the tools to combat certain DI/escape options. You can't build a garden without tools, and you're right that if you don't know what situation to use the tools you won't be building a garden either.
I think the boards need such a thing to add to our collective goodness. Pioneer it asap Fly. Be sure to include cool colors and make it awesomely organized.
Trail gave us all inspiration this week just like you did last week. He got 3rd at SMYM (108 entrants). He took Jman to 5 matches, and it was one of the greatest non-pound sets of this year. I was lucky enough to commentate on it, so I'll be posting that soon. I was pushed farther towards this character. Icebabies making a real comeback!
Does anyone know how the textures for the stages work when you´ll fall through?
Like on pokefloats, pokemon stadium (tree), and corneria?
I know there´s some mayor tricks on Corneria and Onett(left low roof(?), reverse dsmash through the stage), but have to learn how to use them(too good against fox lol).
How does it work, I think phanna(samusplayer) knew how it works on PS...
Like on pokefloats, pokemon stadium (tree), and corneria?
I know there´s some mayor tricks on Corneria and Onett(left low roof(?), reverse dsmash through the stage), but have to learn how to use them(too good against fox lol).
How does it work, I think phanna(samusplayer) knew how it works on PS...
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Thanks for the pointers, Finch. I still have a lot to learn.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
In favor of the Cg Thread/guide.
ShootingStars
Smash Apprentice
CG thread would inspire so many ICs
The people are speaking, and calling your name Fly!
I'm sure people do this, but I did the most awesome rest punishment today. Spotdodge>nana fully charged fsmash, popo regrab, headbutt blizzard, dthrow usmash cheeaaaa. Its about 50 damage.
I'm sure people do this, but I did the most awesome rest punishment today. Spotdodge>nana fully charged fsmash, popo regrab, headbutt blizzard, dthrow usmash cheeaaaa. Its about 50 damage.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Yeah, that's the only rest punisher you should be using unless jiggs is at a high enough % to kill with backwards u-smash (or nana is dead).