Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Fly_Amanita]

Wobbles, somebody I don't recognize said that you're going to NSH and Champ said that you hadn't pre-registered yet. If you are actually going, registration ends on March 22, in case you didn't know.

 

[Incronaut]

do you ICs players think that there is none, some, or a lot of unlocked ice climbers potential? or have they reached their peak already?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I am curious if anyone knows the formula (simple as it maybe) for the frame data on wobbling.

Like how many frames of stun the grab pummel does, I am aware of being able to wobble someone with dtilt or ftilt, but are there other options possible? Sometimes I use grab pummel with Popo and just jab with Nana and I keep my enemy grabbed for a really long time.

Just curious if anyone has already debunked every option.


Also Fly you are really encouraging, good stuff on beating McCain (among everyone else lately).



EDIT

Also if Nana has a turnip you can grab Peach and Wobble her using a turnip, its pretty satisfying even if its a once in a life time situation, I was just practicing this in training mode.

 

[PEEF!]

The makers of the game made sure that you can't infinate someone by just grabbing and pressing a with no direction. Too obvious.

Dude, Pokemonmaster, you do alot of this testing stuff, you should help me out with the metronome thread. It's a perfect thing to put a little effort in. It's already laid out, just help with some testing =]

 

[KirbyKaze]

do you ICs players think that there is none, some, or a lot of unlocked ice climbers potential? or have they reached their peak already?

I think if ICs find a way to make Nana forget she has B-throw and U-throw there might be something there.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Dude, Pokemonmaster, you do alot of this testing stuff, you should help me out with the metronome thread. It's a perfect thing to put a little effort in. It's already laid out, just help with some testing =]

I don't personally find it that helpful of a thread, although some other people might like it. I don't think that handing off is that hard to learn if you dedicate enough time to mastering it.

 

[cloudz]

I've been getting better at Juggling Spacies with Short hopped Uairs. It's beautiful and ideal if you want to be flashyyyyyy. anyone else do this?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'd rather just grab them because then they automatically die.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Here's a super-rough version of the guide. I need to append a section on KO'ing out of grabs still, but I'm currently drawing blanks on how to organize it and will hopefully come up with something later. I also don't know any actual percentages for how long the dthrow CG works, although fortunately for me, I don't think I need to say much about percentages for most of the CGs I listed. It still would be nice to have more details that I don't know, though. I only listed several of the few CGs I consider worthwhile, but I may add more if somebody convinces me one of the others is worthwhile.

I'll probably append a miscellaneous section, too, because I do want to say stuff about the applications of uthrow for combos and positioning, the uses of dthrow and bthrow for tech-chasing and maybe positioning, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting about.

This is what I've currently got:

The Basic Grab Compendium
-------------------------

This is a collection of pragmatic information pertaining to the ICs' grabs.  It should be noted that there are many esoteric options out of grabs that I 

haven't listed here; I have only listed chain grabs and finishers that I believe are useful reasonably often and not strictly inferior to other options.

disclaimers
-
I always assume grabs are JC grabs unless stated otherwise
-

Contents:
-Chain Grabs
--dthrow
--dthrow -> dair
--the handoff
--fsmash -> grab
--wobbling





Chain Grabs (CGs)
-----------------

I preface this section with a simple and general question that every ICs has thought about, ot at least should: "What makes a CG good?"

When I contemplate whether a CG is worth doing/learning, there are several main, interrelated traits I consider:
(1) How easily can my opponent escape this?
(2) How quickly does this CG rack up damage?
(3) How difficult is this to perform?
(4) What is the risk if I make an error?
(5) Are there are any other similar options I have that are safer or easier?

(1) is a question that is usually hard to difficult to answer concretely.  For a number of reasons, it may be considerably easier from a technical 

perspective for one character to escape some CG than another character.  At the same time, I consider what the cost to the opponent of trying to escape is.  

For example, in the case of the dthrow -> fsmash -> grab CG on space animals, it is relatively easy to escape by DI'ing away, but DI'ing away is very risky 

since they'll probably die if you release the fsmash early.  The answer to (2) is always important in doubles and can be important in singles depending on 

how easy the CG is to escape and how difficult it is to perform.  (4) is important for difficult CGs and CGs that take a while, and (5) is there to make sure 

I'm not wasting time learning something when I have another, better option that serves many of the same purposes.

Every chain grab I recommend here holds up well here given the criteria I list.



Dthrow CG
---------
Popo dthrows the opponent and grabs again afterwards.

This is the simplest CG the ICs have and the only one that doesn't require Nana.  One of the main reasons I'm listing this CG here is that it is a very 

reliable CG on Sheik that is inescapable for quite a while.  It also works on some miscellaneous low tiers like Roy and is situationally useful on Fox/Falco. 

 It works on Falcon, too, although good reflexes are necessary here.  Against Sheik/Roy/Falcon, you can simply react to their DI and grab again.  If you want 

to end the CG, fsmash is good when your opponent DI's up or doesn't DI, and wavedash -> dsmash is good when your opponent DI's away.  Fox/Falco can escape it 

by DI'ing away, but if you think they will input survival DI or no DI for whatever reason and if you're not in a position for the fsmash -> grab CG, dthrow 

-> grab is a legitimate option.

*percentages*


Dthrow -> Dair (and variants)
-----------------------------
Popo dthrows, Nana dairs, and Popo grabs again.

This is the bread-and-butter ICs CG and it can be legitimately used against almost every character in the game.  I didn't say exactly how Nana inputs the 

dair in the initial description because there are two main variants: short hop dair and reverse dair (Nana full jumps or short hops behind the opponent and 

dairs).  Short hop dair often works very well on space animals and other characters that fall reasonably quickly.  Fox/Falco can escape it by SDI'ing away, 

but many people are bad or inconsistent at this.  Also, since they DI away to escape it, you can sometimes get relatively early KOs by having Nana fsmash 

instead of short hop dair.  Most other characters can escape this by DI'ing upwards.  However, you can still often use dthrow -> short hop dair on many 

characters if you think they will DI away.  For example, if you dthrow a Peach at high percentages and she DI's away in anticipation of a usmash, you can 

short hop dair -> re-grab.

Reverse dair is an extremely useful tool against Falcon/Ganon, both of whom have a very difficult time escaping it.  You can still frequently get away with 

it on most other characters if you don't do it too often, and it also has the nice property of letting you turn around during a CG.  This is especially 

useful if you're near an edge that you're facing away from, as it allows you to turn around and start a handoff (more on that later).

Note that dair has damage-independent knockback, so either variant can work at any percentage.


The Handoff
-----------
When close to an edge that you're facing: Popo dthrow -> Nana fthrow (automatic) -> Popo grab.

The handoff is one of the most important CGs that the ICs have at their disposal.  It has the distinction of being the only known inescapable* CG that works 

on everybody in the game aside from wobbling.  The timing varies by character and is often very precise, which can make learning it difficult, but I strongly 

recommend learning how to do it on all of the common characters.  One can also have Popo fthrow instead of dthrow, but this tends to make grabbing again 

after Nana's fthrow more difficult.  Note that the usual variation of the handoff terminates once you reach the edge, since Popo must move forward to grab 

again after Nana's fthrow on almost all characters (exceptions are Ganon, Bowser, and DK, whom you can do a straightforward standing infinite on).  There is 

a variation that allows you to continue the handoff once you reach the edge, where you have Popo do a dash grab rather than a standing grab or JC grab.  

However, this is generally very risky.  Popo must do a dash grab while standing on the edge, which means that if you wait a tad bit too long before pressing 

Z after initiating a dash, Popo will run off and fair.  If you're doing the handoff at one of the outermost edges of the stage, it is likely that you will 

die if this happens, but it's less risky if you're doing it elsewhere.

*If Nana decides to do a ton of headbutts before her fthrow, then your opponent can escape, but this is relatively uncommon.


Fsmash -> Grab
-------------
Popo grabs, Nana charges fsmash, Popo dthrows, Nana releases smash after dthrow finishes, Popo grabs again during fsmash hitlag.

This is an odd CG on space animals.  It works if the opponent doesn't DI away, which most people are reluctant to do when they see Nana charge an fsmash.  

This can be escaped at medium to high percentages with DI away, but doing so is very risky for the opponent, since you can always release the fsmash early 

and potentially net an early KO.  Note that in a lot of respects, this is very similar to dthrow -> short hop dair.  Namely, the opponent can DI up to ensure 

survival, but risks taking more damage should you decide to continue the CG, and should the opponent decide to DI away, s/he can escape, but will likely die 

if you finish the CG then.  The biggest differences between the two CGs are that this one is more intimidating than dthrow -> dair, but is also more 

difficult and is easier to escape from.  However, this CG is also relatively uncommon and will catch many people off-guard.


Wobbling
--------
[insert link to wobbling thread here]

Wobbling is almost always the best choice available when it is legal, since it is a totally inescapable and fairly easy CG that works on every character in 

the game.  The only times another option is better, at least in singles, are when the opponent is at a really low percentages, since s/he can button mush out 

before the infinite begins in that case, and when Nana isn't in a good position to ftilt or dtilt, in which case you may want to use another CG to transition 

into wobbling.  For example, dthrow -> short hop dair and the handoff both lead into wobbling nicely.

 

[PEEF!]

Yumm looks nice.

I agree that more details on % would be nice if we can get them. I think the easiest thing to do is find mutual agreement. We can do some good solid tests and nail it down with more precision assuming we don't have a willing AR user among our ranks.

Fly, let me know any stat, number, %, or anything that you could use some testing or verification on and I'll be right on it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The only really useful percentage I can think of at the moment would be the lowest percentage at which Sheik can escape the dthrow CG, but that's hard to test without an AR. I appreciate the offer, though, and I'll let you know if I think of any other data that would be useful.

 

[PEEF!]

I am not good at the sheik dthrow thing, but I really need to work on it. I noticed there was no mention of dsmashing with the dthrow. I'm not sure if it's worth learning.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think i'm going to quit the ice climbers not down-smash i can't leave down-smash no matter what I love it more than sbb(amazing game), but i'm going to main down-smash now i'm tried of all the tech skill I want to keep up(I may become techical someday again) but i'm going to basically main down-smash and stop useing non down-smash moves. Not only do I have to keep up my ice climbers tech skill but also my pichu's.

I don't care if anyone one else cares I just wanted to say something, also I caught a shiny paras.

 

[PEEF!]

Kthxbai

I could use some general rules of the road regarding the samus matchup.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I caught a shiny paras.

I love Parasect.

Neato.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Parasect?

More like Parasex amirite?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Hell yes.

Parasect as Ubers Kyogre counter?

Get at me.

 

[Smasher89]

Ice beam Kyogre with Lum berry says hi
Btw there were a dutch player called Rens that played peach that always dsmashed, he was really close to make Helios not advance from pools at RoS3 XD

EDIT: I knew it was possibe to Dthrow, jab falcon at low %, but dthrow CG him like shiek?, which % is that and why is noone using it?

 

[KirbyKaze]

My EVs let me survive Ice Beam (lack of Specs, if you're using Lum Berry). And go on to recover like 50% of my bar because of Leftovers + Dry Skin + Protect.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

EDIT: I knew it was possibe to Dthrow, jab falcon at low %, but dthrow CG him like shiek?, which % is that and why is noone using it?

It's possible, but hard:

Is it not known that sopo CG works on Falcon between something like 0-170% before he can jump out? The jump out % doesn't actually matter since he'd be going straight up from the throw to do that and you can kill from that position before then, so it's more like you can d-throw CG him regardless of percent until he goes offstage or can go high enough to reach a platform. You need to react quickly to catch away DI in time, but it's doable. You can regrab Falco on away DI as well but that's beyond impossible to react to and you'd need to be a robot, lol.

 

[PEEF!]

Would dsmashing with nana actually help di read that? I've heard that said butbi don't we how thatd help.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't see why that would help, but I'm not sure that it doesn't.

 

[PEEF!]

You don't have to move forward to handoff ganon? I didn't know that, and that's big. Ganon screws me up so bad.

 

[choknater]

i don't think peach ***** ic's anymore.

 

[PEEF!]

I was just getting that feeling too.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yes, you can do a stationary handoff on Ganon. It's pretty cool.

I still hate Peach, although I've generally been doing pretty well against her lately.

 

[ChivalRuse]

When I get a grab on the Mario brothers and Jiggs (i.e., the "non-chaingrabbable" characters) I usually do headbutt blizzard headbutt dthrow fair dsmash for damage. I haven't tested it out on anybody yet, but I have a method by which you could theoretically chaingrab those characters! Well, probably not Jiggs, but at least Mario, Doc, and Luigi.

I'm assuming you guys know that the reason why dthrow dair doesn't work on the Mario brothers is because, for some reason, the dthrow causes them to be too far in front of you, out of the range of Nana's dair. However, I think I've found a way around this problem. When you get the grab, headbutt like normal. Immediately hold forward, and Nana will walk forward past your victim. When you dthrow, do the input that you normally do for reverse dair (e.g., have Nana full jump dair while moving away from you). Your victim will be put behind you for a turn around regrab.

What do you guys think of this? Like the other chaingrabs, it would be escapeable with smash DI, but otherwise I think it would be pretty legitimate. One drawback would be that you can't blizzard before the throw, unless your desynching skills were really precise.

 

[PEEF!]

Di up will end it, but just like peach and marth, that could catch some marios by suprise.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Perhaps. But if there was a way to get SH reverse dair to work using my idea, and if you turned around and grabbed quickly enough, I think normal escape DI would be fairly negligible.

 

[PEEF!]

Holding up should put him out of regrab range, but I'll help you test once i get home from cancunnn

 

[cloudz]

Fly, are you going to put the old school chaingrabs in the guide? like Dthrow, ice block? lol

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I was contemplating putting that there, but to the best of my knowledge, it's easy to escape and doesn't work whenever there are platforms around. Every time I've ever been in a position where it could work, there was something else I would rather do. Honestly though, I don't understand that CG very well and am interested in hearing more about it.

I'm also considering adding handoff-esque CGs when not near an edge. I think those can be pretty decent.

 

[Devil Ray]

any tips on how to get past marth/sheik's f-air spam? that stuff is really annoying. so cowardly.

i started to play more patiently and i got my combos in, but the f-airs were killing me. after the game, i picked up fox and just ran in with nair-shines--so much easier to approach with. any tips?

 

[SoiGreg]

any tips on how to get past marth/sheik's f-air spam? that stuff is really annoying. so cowardly.

i started to play more patiently and i got my combos in, but the f-airs were killing me. after the game, i picked up fox and just ran in with nair-shines--so much easier to approach with. any tips?

Try some desynched blizzards or ice blocks to make them approach. Then predict the fair, and shield.

 

[Devil Ray]

that barely works. i only say barely cause projectile spam is effective at pissing off your opponent.

wave-shielding is ok, but they just do the dancing sword and that'll push you off and hit nana.

i read wobbles thing, and he basically suggests shield, dash attack, or wait until they give up. is that really all ic's got?

 

[ChivalRuse]

You can CC dtilt/dsmash Marth's fair. Sheik's fair has less range, so well timed wavedash fsmashes have more success on her than on Marth. I think dash attack is by far your best bet though.

 

[PEEF!]

wd utilt or shuair as shiek goes up work so well

 

[ShootingStars]

chaingrab guide would help a scrub like me

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I was in place CGing a Bowser today, it is pretty neat.

Even the Boswer player thought so.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I can't wait to try out that infinite handoff on Ganons. *evil laughter*