Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Fly_Amanita]

I think I'm going to toy around with the desynch where only Popo L-cancels an aerial. I bet that has some neat applications.

 

[Devil Ray]

i have a few questions for the grab combos (not chain grabs)

-sometimes when i do downthrow then fsmash with nana, i get a "Soft" version where it only does 10%. i think the version that does about 20% needs different timing, you need to wait half a second later for nana to get the full swing. can the opponent DI out of the "hard" version ???

-is downthrow upsmash with nana the strongest guaranteed smash combo? outside of chain grabs, what's the best grab combo i can do on someone ???

-does jab to grab work on almost every character? i know it does NOT work on doc for some reason, but it seems to work on all the top and high tiers

gotta ask again, but any help with these Q's ???

 

[PEEF!]

Simply match a throw that corresponds to their DI. Every DI has a throw smash combo that can go in that direction for super effectiveness.

If it isn't one of the characters like peach and puff that gets ***** by dthrow usmash charged at like 70-90, then its a guessing game of DI to kill with either dthrow usmash, dthrow fsmash, or uthrow fsmash

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ray Chun, instead of dthrow upsmash, you can do dthrow Nana fair Popo dsmash. It does the most damage if they don't tech or DI, and it works on every character (even the ones you can't chaingrab, like Puff). It's especially nice if you want to do the blizzard before hitting them away.

 

[PEEF!]

How to time/space the fair to get the spike guaranteed?

 

[Smasher89]

Found something that seems to actually stop peach fair approach totally(!) on some stages!(PS, maybe DL64 and FoD for example)

You know when wavedashing backwards and doing Iceblock of a platform and getting that momentum upwards.
Do that, but fastfalling the Iceblock creates the oppoturnity to desynch Nana.


The good thing with this is that you can desynch her to blizzard on the ground, and having Popo free to do whatever he wants(like waveland and repeat ic, fastfall desynched blizzard).
It pressures both above/on the platform with the IB and beneath with blizzard, and the IB stops any approach when connecting, which kinda should be possible to keep a quite solid wall or pressure, and might be able to create openings for reactionbased combos.


1. WDbackwards of a plattform, fastfall and press B for Iceblock(needs to have the IB on the platform), might need to press B again for Nana to blizzard
2. Wall created for profit!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Walling is pretty good in general (e.g., Nana blizzard, Popo ice block, Nana SH blizzard, etc.).

 

[Smasher89]

Yea, but generally it can be beaten by a wellspaced peach fair, this eleminates that to work, but is possible to work around for the peach in a different way, but forces her to not use the safest/strongest move against IC^^

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you should get a medal of coolness, maybe i'll try ice climbers vs peach(i've never done it everyone always scaries me of the evil stories of down-smash so I would just go pichu) but yeah I may try that out.

 

[Vanitas]

just wondering...how is Yoshis Story and Fountain of Dreams good stages for Ice Climbers? :O
i understand FD but im not really getting why those two are good stages for them

 

[choknater]

yoshi's... well... its matchup dependent.

for fox i think its good cuz u get easy kills.
falco it's 50/50 cuz both characters have easy ways to kill and easy ways to approach.
i think falcon has advantage cuz it makes it toooo easy for him to get at you
peach it's nice, but dont get dsmashed when shes above you. low percent kill against peach, which helps a lot
it's ic's BEST STAGE against puff, cuz she will die from uair and smashes at sooo low
marth ***** ic's
pretty good for sheik, but id rather go battlefield or FD

battlefield and FD are i think ic's best stages in general, cuz they need space to WD and also reliable edgeguarding options

FoD... it can be okay, because the platform heights can make it awkward for other characters' maneuverability and score you some good fsmashes or usmashes... but overall i dont think its that great because the platform heights can also hinder ur chain throws or dthrow combos in general. ic's just don't like moving stuff.... IMO

 

[Kyu Puff]

-Empty short hops aren't so great against Sheik, especially when you're facing towards her.
-You don't space the fsmash approach properly. It does work, but you don't usually want to squeeze under the slap; keep in mind that your fsmash is more disjointed than the slap, so the idea is to position yourself just outside of the slap's range and fsmash her as she descends. It's still hard to do and shouldn't be done too much, but it's a very useful tool.
-CC more often. I know it can be hard to CC Sheik's tilts and jabs, especially since she likes to do them after pressuring your shield with aerials, but tilts/jabs done in other circumstances can usually be punished with CC -> run in JC grab.
-You make it too easy for Sheik to get back near the center of the stage. I usually see Spawn just Shino stall until you give him enough space to get back on. Like, in the second round, you're often all the way behind the floating platforms when Spawn is Shino stalling. You should be pretty close to Sheik to apply a lot pressure here, although not so close that he can slap you or something. I think the best way to deal with really persistent Shino stalling is to make it look like you want to edgehog him out of it and then punish him when he tries to get back. I am a fan of simply turning away from the edge, which many Sheiks respond to by wavedashing on stage, and then turning around and grabbing them. That probably doesn't work against very well-done invincible wavelands, but Sheiks tend to be somewhat sloppy. Another really good tool when Sheik is by the edge is desynched blizzard. It doesn't beat Shino stalling, but it does stop just about everything Sheik can do to get back on stage, except rolling on, which is easy to punish on reaction.
-Spawn likes to full jump a lot. A lot of Sheiks don't do this since it's kind of unsafe, but if you see Sheik do it a lot, don't be afraid to run forward and full jump uair him out of it.
-You like to sh uair -> full jump bair, which is fine, except that you miss with the bair often. I'm guessing that's just a consequence of you being rusty, though. I think it's generally better to try to follow the uair with more uairs, also, since it's usually better to have Sheik above you than to your side.
-Blizzard more. Blizzard is a really good tool for alleviating some of Sheik's pressure. I mostly mean some form of desynched blizzard with Nana, but even synched short hop blizzard or short hop blizzard with Sopo can be used to hit Sheik out of her short hop. This is probably riskier against Spawn than it is against most other good Sheiks because of his tendency to full jump, though.

On another note, I think FoD is Sheik's best neutral against ICs and I recommend striking it. That might just be a consequence of how I like to play the match-up, though.

Thanks for the advice Fly, all of that makes a lot of sense. We were using Pound 4 rules and I actually struck Battlefield and Yoshi's Story. I'm not sure if that was the best decision, but I felt like the platforms on Yoshi's make it easier for her to platform camp, and FoD is one of my favorite stages.

I didn't even realize I was shorthopping that much. Bad habit I guess, I'll have to pay more attention to my movement next time. Since Spawn was fulljumping so much I probably should have been able to get under him more. Also, normally I don't miss many b-airs like that; it was partially rustiness and partially tournament nervousness that kept making me jump away from him after the u-air.

I know exactly what you're talking about with the f-smash approach -- I think I've seen Chu do it before, but he uses the back part of d-smash. That's definitely something to work on.

Spawn is really gay near the ledge. If I moved any closer he would probably keep shino stalling until I tried to edgehog or time ran out. He actually makes sure the timer is on before all of his matches.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What you should be able to do to a Shino stalling Sheik is desynch Nana some distance from the ledge (so she doesn't get hit by the up-b poof, then immediately wavedash back onto the ledge, waveland, and grab her when she up-b's onto the stage or bair if she goes to a platform.

 

[Vanitas]

yoshi's... well... its matchup dependent.

for fox i think its good cuz u get easy kills.
falco it's 50/50 cuz both characters have easy ways to kill and easy ways to approach.
i think falcon has advantage cuz it makes it toooo easy for him to get at you
peach it's nice, but dont get dsmashed when shes above you. low percent kill against peach, which helps a lot
it's ic's BEST STAGE against puff, cuz she will die from uair and smashes at sooo low
marth ***** ic's
pretty good for sheik, but id rather go battlefield or FD

battlefield and FD are i think ic's best stages in general, cuz they need space to WD and also reliable edgeguarding options

FoD... it can be okay, because the platform heights can make it awkward for other characters' maneuverability and score you some good fsmashes or usmashes... but overall i dont think its that great because the platform heights can also hinder ur chain throws or dthrow combos in general. ic's just don't like moving stuff.... IMO

ohh ic thanks alot Choknator! i ll keep that in mind

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

oh don't forget what PEEF asked about the fair spike where andwhen I swear i've heard and i've tested it like 4 or 5 times and I can't remeber but I know % for upair combos as pichu.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Wow, I suck against Puff. I have no sense of when I have frame advantage and I'm not familiar with exactly how far her attacks reach. I also tend to get atypically impatient against her. Oh well, I just need more experience in the match-up. Until then, I'm bizarrely okay at the match-up with Fox/Sheik and kind of Peach, so I'm not too concerned.

 

[choknater]

fly, yeah, im reallllllllllly bad at ganon matchup. i got 2-stocked by bizzarro flame (but only cuz i sd my first stock and he SD out of courtesy, maybe i would've been 3-stocked lol)

but i copped out and went falco and tapped him :D




theres vids coming out of me vs macd.... my fox got ***** vs macd so i went ic's on FD and had a very close match. lost 0-2 though. also, theres a set of me losing to sfat 2-3. i need to go to more tournaments lol, i get nervous =\ you guys will see bad decisions all over the place but still good sets

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Dont feel bad Chok, apparently (and this is from players better than me, Pocky and Sheridan and Scar) Bizzaro Flame is the best Ganon on the west coast.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Ganon's an *******. Were your sets against SFAT and Bizz recorded?

 

[Vts]

I'm learning ganon match up, i still suck majorly against peach and samus.

ihsb is just too good.

some matches i can get him down to 1 stock but can never get that killing blow ><

o well i'll learn it soon enough.

but peach i might just have to pick up pikachu or something to deal with that ***** ><

 

[ChivalRuse]

What you should be able to do to a Shino stalling Sheik is desynch Nana some distance from the ledge (so she doesn't get hit by the up-b poof, then immediately wavedash back onto the ledge, waveland, and grab her when she up-b's onto the stage or bair if she goes to a platform.

I changed my mind. This doesn't work very well. Nana is like magnetized to Popo, so when you desynch her and wavedash to the ledge, she gets pulled along with you.

I'm just gonna do what Fly does and have Nana blizzard a wavedash's length from the ledge so that if Sheik ledgehops she'll get hit by it.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I wish I were cool enough to use Pikachu.

I do feel like I should mention that against super-persistent Shino stalling, edgehogging is a viable method of countering it, but against good players, who tend to be cautious about such things, it's a lot more practical to just bait them into coming on stage instead.

edit: I usually don't actively try to bait Sheik into coming on stage, actually, since most people will try to come back on eventually on their own accord; I just do the aforementioned stuff that ChivalRuse mentioned. It's always good to keep all this stuff in mind on the occasion that the Sheik is very patient, though.

 

[choknater]

no, my games with bizzarro flame were not tournament. i got ***** with ic's in one game so i went falco and i think i won like 3-2 or something. it wasnt a set, just friendlies/seriouslies

my sets with obey and macd were on the main tv, i'm asking the uc merced thread right now if they were recorded... im pretty sure they were, but maybe not uploaded yet

GKInfinity uploaded my set with sfat, games 2-4 so far.

my playstyle is so random and illogical, i dnot understand myself when i watch O_O

i think.... i need to adjust to individual foxes. i have to watch what they do and stuff. i was nervous this set, but it's all good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gb_YRg84b4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMMR4qPlNJo&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPUtv-4ZEA&feature=channel

games 1 and 5 aren't up yet for some reason

i could use a lot of advice, cuz it looks like i make a lot of dumb moves and bad habits lol.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Just watched your set vs Sfat Chok.

Man, you are too good brandon was meat riding you for a good reason.


You really need to step up your cg game tho.

Like Up Throw to Fsmash to send them the other direction and what not.

GGs regardless.


You will be beast if you get your CG tech skill on par.

 

[choknater]

lol yea my friends told me that too

'ur good but if u can do better stuff when you grab, you'd be sooo much better'

man i needa practice.... but its hard when i dont have any players around me (especially spacies) who can DI well

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

NO JOHNS.

You can practice your CG tech skill by yourself......naked.

 

[choknater]

lol

but seriously it would help to have foxes around me who di well

fly, against puff, blizzard more. and dont wd toward her or u will get baired, its hard to space wd's against her but u dont always need them. blizzard ice block wall is a great way to stop her approach, but obv she can get in with bair at certain angles... but while nana is blizzarding, u can maneuver with popo to either slide nana around, or do a surprise approach with popo.

i dont normally condone desynching but blizzard provides a difficult wall for jigglypuff to get across. even if jigglypuff tries to go over it, popo can watch her closely and uair her

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'll consider it, although blizzard still seems very unsafe to me.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm having trouble dealing with Sheiks who camp the side platforms with needles and runoff/dropthrough fairs/bairs. They space everything super well, and once they get me to critical percent, they dsmash Nana, ftilt fair Popo, kill Nana, then proceed to edgeguard me with fairs until I die.

I've noticed that when Sheik goes on a platform, Chu wavedashes under her and uairs once or twice, then dairs. I'm trying to emulate this, but I think I'm timing it wrong. Sheik ends up waiting for my wavedash, then she drops down with a fair. I've tried countering this with running shield, but it fails because her spaced fair is unpunishable even if shielded. The best thing I can do after having shielded a fair is usually to roll back and blizzard or, if I think she'll SH another fair, wavedash behind her and FJ bair.

I know the topic of Sheiks who camp SH fair and its variations has been addressed before in this thread, but I've just now realized how deadly this is.

 

[choknater]

unless puff is right next to you, it's always safe to roll away.

the only risk is that it puts you closer to the ledge, but even then it's not that dangerous as long as nana is covering your front

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I think I'm just going to try to emulate the way Chu plays the match-up. I just watched a few of his sets against Mango/Hbox and I really like what he does against Puff.

Step 1: Get better at at light-shielding, lol.

@ChivalRuse: Things that beat platform drop -> fair include well-spaced fsmashes (I usually run forward and do a stationary wavedash to position myself since I find that to be the easiest way to get myself in exactly the right spot in this sort of situation) and blizzard (synched or desynched). Also, keep in mind there's no hurry to approach Sheik. I used to get ***** by that sort of thing by trying to get in too often, but I do better now when I just let her camp until I feel like I can approach.

 

[ShootingStars]

Whos GofG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrSzfOPysq0

New IC player?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Run and wavedash in place. That's a good tip. I've been trying to dash more, as I find it's useful for precise spacing against characters like Ganon, whom you have to be exact with.

Edit: Oh, by the way, Fly, your sets against Zhu are really instructive. I feel I've gotten a lot better against Falco since watching your methods. ^_^

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think u-smash is really useful against Jigglypuff. Puff players tend to underestimate its range/duration so it's easy to land out of nothing.

 

[Turazrok]

Congrats to Fly on 5th in Socal... I wish I had the time/dedication to practice the technical aspects of IC's. ( which makes no sense because I can waveshine/multishine fine.)

 

[Nintendude]

How do ICs players feel about Dreamland? I've always felt really comfortable there since I have a lot of room to breathe and the platforms are pretty high, letting me safely waveland across them to get out of bad situations. I'll typically always counterpick Dreamland unless I'm facing Puff of Peach, and if they counterpick to Dreamland, I'm totally fine with that.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I like Dreamland for similar reasons. I also find it a lot easier to recover there than it is on most other stages. I still prefer smaller stages for the most part since it's easier to force my opponent to encounter me on them, though.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What are some good options when I grab Marth at low percents in the middle of the stage (meaning I can't pseudo chaingrab to get into position for a handoff) ?

At 0, I like dthrow -> fair -> regrab -> dthrow -> fair -> dsmash. It does 50-60%, but it's escapeable.

I see Chu doing stuff like dthrow -> fsmash -> wavedash fsmash or dthrow -> usmash -> uair -> uair.

What can I reliably get the most out of?

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I am really starting to like Dthrow > Up Air at low percents vs nearly everyone.

 

[ChivalRuse]

We're both talking about grabbing with synched IC's, not SoPo, right?