ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
How do I get around Marth's jab/dtilt/side-b wall? 
And what's the best way to escape his utilt/uair/fair juggles?
And what's the best way to escape his utilt/uair/fair juggles?
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Don't run into it, move unpredictably. You can punish d-tilt and f-air with wd b-air or f-smash, and probably some other moves. If you manage to get far enough into his range you can also shield grab any of those moves. Just don't feel like you're trapped or that you have to keep rolling into him.How do I get around Marth's jab/dtilt/side-b wall?
And what's the best way to escape his utilt/uair/fair juggles?
DI away, use platforms, don't try to jump when he can hit you out of it.
I developed an answer to this problem that is working well for me. Switching controllers is bad, it causes you to mess up. My answer is simple, buy 2 controllers at once, and give them even usage. This means that you age them together, and instead of going through a controller every 6 months, you can halve the amount of "transition periods" by buying 2 controllers (I recommend silver) at once. This has worked out great for me so far.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
fly, air dodge to recover sometimes
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I do, just not as often as I probably should. I should also up-B more, probably.
GofG
Smash Champion
****ing amazed at your set vs zhu fly
i asked a bit ago and, understandably, got ignored, but no one told me "no, gofg, this is not a video comment & critique thread" so i'll ask again. Could I get a couple pointers on the jiggs matchup? I had a lot of trouble figuring out whether i was supposed to camp, approach, and what i was supposed to do from a grab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcWZJoycWRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UV9OHnTagU
i asked a bit ago and, understandably, got ignored, but no one told me "no, gofg, this is not a video comment & critique thread" so i'll ask again. Could I get a couple pointers on the jiggs matchup? I had a lot of trouble figuring out whether i was supposed to camp, approach, and what i was supposed to do from a grab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcWZJoycWRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UV9OHnTagU
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Jigglypuff is annoying. I also had a hard time with a Puff recently, but got a lot better at the match-up after watching some of Chu's sets against Mango/Hbox, which I think are the best references on how to play it. A few good things to keep in mind:
-Being able to light-shield really well is amazingly helpful. It suddenly becomes a lot harder for Puff to shield-poke or really do much to you at all if you can maintain a very large shield. Good shield-camping lets you get away with not approaching often and thus helps in being more unpredictable in your approaches.
-Facing backwards often is nice since your bair is a fast move that can compete with Puff's range. It's useful whenever Puff spaces incorrectly into the back of your shield (which isn't often, but still happens sometimes) or whenever Puff just decides to stay near you after hitting your shield with an aerial to try to continue pressuring you. If Puff retreats a bit after nairing your shield, you can still often bair OoS; you just need to short hop towards Puff and delay the bair a bit in order for it to reach. Puff can beat this by shielding, but then you can mix in things in like wavedash OoS -> turn-around grab to beat that.
-If you want to approach facing forward, ftilt and jab -> ftilt are really good. They do decent damage and are reasonably safe. Keep in mind that while Puff does die early, you're not going to be KOing her at low percentages with dsmash/fsmash, so it's better to resort to safer approaches for dealing damage, like the ones I just listed.
-Regarding grabs, it's often easier to go for Sopo combos even when you have Nana. Dthrow -> full jump nair/uair/bair are all good, which you already seem aware of. Oddly enough, bthrow -> fair is really good if they DI away from you. If you do have Nana in a nice position, though, it's probably better just to do dthrow -> fsmash/usmash, which you need to time a little differently on Puff than on other characters since she's so light, but this isn't hard once you get the hang of it.
For the most part, I think you play the match-up pretty well, even if you don't have a good sense of what works and why. You did look a little nervous in the third match, but seemed to regain your composure near the end. I think you blizzard too much, but this particular Puff didn't punish you for it often and ran into it a lot, so it's fine in this case. Be wary of using blizzard so much against other Puffs, since she can just hover over it and just a bit too far away to uair her, which can be an awkward position for you.
I mainly recommend just working on light-shield camping and trying to be unpredictable in how/when you approach.
-Being able to light-shield really well is amazingly helpful. It suddenly becomes a lot harder for Puff to shield-poke or really do much to you at all if you can maintain a very large shield. Good shield-camping lets you get away with not approaching often and thus helps in being more unpredictable in your approaches.
-Facing backwards often is nice since your bair is a fast move that can compete with Puff's range. It's useful whenever Puff spaces incorrectly into the back of your shield (which isn't often, but still happens sometimes) or whenever Puff just decides to stay near you after hitting your shield with an aerial to try to continue pressuring you. If Puff retreats a bit after nairing your shield, you can still often bair OoS; you just need to short hop towards Puff and delay the bair a bit in order for it to reach. Puff can beat this by shielding, but then you can mix in things in like wavedash OoS -> turn-around grab to beat that.
-If you want to approach facing forward, ftilt and jab -> ftilt are really good. They do decent damage and are reasonably safe. Keep in mind that while Puff does die early, you're not going to be KOing her at low percentages with dsmash/fsmash, so it's better to resort to safer approaches for dealing damage, like the ones I just listed.
-Regarding grabs, it's often easier to go for Sopo combos even when you have Nana. Dthrow -> full jump nair/uair/bair are all good, which you already seem aware of. Oddly enough, bthrow -> fair is really good if they DI away from you. If you do have Nana in a nice position, though, it's probably better just to do dthrow -> fsmash/usmash, which you need to time a little differently on Puff than on other characters since she's so light, but this isn't hard once you get the hang of it.
For the most part, I think you play the match-up pretty well, even if you don't have a good sense of what works and why. You did look a little nervous in the third match, but seemed to regain your composure near the end. I think you blizzard too much, but this particular Puff didn't punish you for it often and ran into it a lot, so it's fine in this case. Be wary of using blizzard so much against other Puffs, since she can just hover over it and just a bit too far away to uair her, which can be an awkward position for you.
I mainly recommend just working on light-shield camping and trying to be unpredictable in how/when you approach.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Chu is amazing against Jigglypuff.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
GofG, I play against Jiggs a lot. I'm not Fly, but just a few tips:
Throw out more fsmashes. Jiggs tends to run into them. If you're worried about bairs, approach with your shield, and time your wavedashes out of shield so that you can hit Jiggs when she's retreating. Whenever Jiggs is above you, try to catch her with upsmashes.
Don't try to dthrow dair Jiggs. It doesn't work. >_> When you get a grab at really low percents, you can do dthrow upsmash and have Popo follow with a fair/uair. I'm a big advocate of dthrow fair (spaced so you get the meteor) -> dsmash. At the higher percents, blizzard when you get a grab. It does a lot of damage. Then dthrow upsmash.
Throw out more fsmashes. Jiggs tends to run into them. If you're worried about bairs, approach with your shield, and time your wavedashes out of shield so that you can hit Jiggs when she's retreating. Whenever Jiggs is above you, try to catch her with upsmashes.
Don't try to dthrow dair Jiggs. It doesn't work. >_> When you get a grab at really low percents, you can do dthrow upsmash and have Popo follow with a fair/uair. I'm a big advocate of dthrow fair (spaced so you get the meteor) -> dsmash. At the higher percents, blizzard when you get a grab. It does a lot of damage. Then dthrow upsmash.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Some Puffs do run into fsmashes a lot; others tend to go over them. In the former case, fsmash is fine, but in the latter, it should be used sparingly.
Cia
das kwl
I can't think of a worse hell than fighting Jiggs w/ ICz. She can just camp the top platform and **** you when you try to get her T_T
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Do Jiggs players actually win matches doing that?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
@ Vanz - Mute City Cort Peach vs Ice Climbers.
@ ChivalRuse - If they want to win, sometimes.
@ ChivalRuse - If they want to win, sometimes.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
I really think that if you dont let McCain DADS you, then you win.
I was expecting to get 3-4 stocked by him (mind you I am not very good yet) and I only got 1 stocked and then 2 stocked by him at NSH.
You got this Fly, haha I cant tell McCain plays you a lot, he really gave me a lot of breathing room sometimes.
Also I LOVE WATCHING PAT's ICs. (Azn Lep)
PSS @ CHOk, I just got to Gear 2 in OP, and HOLY CRAP <33333333
I was expecting to get 3-4 stocked by him (mind you I am not very good yet) and I only got 1 stocked and then 2 stocked by him at NSH.
You got this Fly, haha I cant tell McCain plays you a lot, he really gave me a lot of breathing room sometimes.
Also I LOVE WATCHING PAT's ICs. (Azn Lep)
PSS @ CHOk, I just got to Gear 2 in OP, and HOLY CRAP <33333333
GofG
Smash Champion
is dthrow upsmash actually guaranteed on jiggs? What am I doing wrong? I can't get it, and I just spent like an hour trying on snap.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yea, it's guaranteed. You have to upsmash like immediately, since the throw ends so quickly, and the upsmash is a bit slow in connecting.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
mccain could actually be much better at the ic's matchup
but it's okay
he still wins cuz he's peach
but it's okay
he still wins cuz he's peach
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Today I realized Peach is easy to handoff. Now I just need to learn every other aspect of that match-up. :nerd:
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
You pretty much have to press down on the analog and up on the cstick at the same time.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
MacD is easily the second hardest person on the West Coast for me, which makes me feel stupid really often.
Cia
das kwl
I wouldn't mind this (at all)
not saying I'll win.. but it seems like it would be fun.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
getting absolutely ***** by a peach is pretty fun lol
mccain is pretty fun, but its more seriouslies cuz i know i can actually get close and maybe take matches off and stuff
but i remember playing pink shinobi, i got 3-stocked HARD on FD cuz he camped my ***
mccain is pretty fun, but its more seriouslies cuz i know i can actually get close and maybe take matches off and stuff
but i remember playing pink shinobi, i got 3-stocked HARD on FD cuz he camped my ***
choknater
Smash Obsessed
the choknater combo is not supposed to work
works even less these days cuz floaties di the first dair up
hm... i wanna try reverse hahahahah
dthrow reverse sh dair, popo dair
works even less these days cuz floaties di the first dair up
hm... i wanna try reverse hahahahah
dthrow reverse sh dair, popo dair
Fix'd
10Chuistoogood.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
double dair is so useless regardless of direction LOL
hm so
fox is harder than peach LOL
ganon is harder for me than peach too but im probably just doin it wrong
ahhhh i need ways to stop fox from running around so much
hm so
fox is harder than peach LOL
ganon is harder for me than peach too but im probably just doin it wrong
ahhhh i need ways to stop fox from running around so much
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
My vague advice is corner him and force him to approach you. IIRC, the last time I watched you play a Fox, you weren't aggressive enough.
Actually, "aggressive" probably isn't the right word here. It's more like you should camp in his face and try to bait a response.
Actually, "aggressive" probably isn't the right word here. It's more like you should camp in his face and try to bait a response.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Fox is so fun to play. It's not easy, but I just love the match-up.
There are basically three kinds of Fox you'll encounter in tournament:
1. Technical, rush-down Fox.
Tends to approach with drillshines and just keep pressure on you in general. These Foxes rarely change up their game, thus the way to defeat this Fox is to just hard counter everything he does. Fsmash his SHFFL'ed aerials, wavedash back -> fair, shieldgrab his missed l-cancels, stifle his approaches with blizzards, dash dance grab his direct attacks, etc.
2. Campy, defensive Fox.
Dash dance camps. Laser camps. Bair camps. This Fox tries to react to your movements. He does safe moves and approaches minimally. You can't simply counter these tactics because everything he does is based on what you do. Therefore, you have to figure out how he is countering your assaults. Once you have a good idea of how he responds to you, start going through the motions of the attacks you've conditioned him to, then do whatever beats his response instead.
Example: Fox laser camps to bait your approach. Everytime you wavedash at him, he jumps above you and bairs. Adapt by wavedashing -> utilt/uair.
3. Smart, exploitive Fox.
Gauges your style and defensive choices. Does things in anticipation of what you're going to do. Doesn't blindly take the initiative or react to you. This Fox doesn't have set patterns either, though. He plays passive aggressively. Attacking, but only follows through if he knows it will work. If he picks up on your adaptation to his attack, he'll figure out a way around your counter.
Example: Fox notices that when he approaches with SHFFL'ed aerials, you always stand your ground and time fsmashes to outprioritize him. He starts running at you standardly. If, mid-run, he notices that you are standing your ground, he changes up his plan spur-of-the-moment and wavedashes in place. Your fsmash whiffs, and he gets a free punish.
This Fox is obviously the hardest to beat, and you basically just have to outplay him and constantly pressure him to force mistakes or carelessness.
I don't really know much about fighting Ganon. But I like to dash dance grab him when he approaches with fairs. You have to be mad careful though and aware of its range. Belay oos -> blizzard is also pretty ****. Oh, and dash attack is good in some situations.
There are basically three kinds of Fox you'll encounter in tournament:
1. Technical, rush-down Fox.
Tends to approach with drillshines and just keep pressure on you in general. These Foxes rarely change up their game, thus the way to defeat this Fox is to just hard counter everything he does. Fsmash his SHFFL'ed aerials, wavedash back -> fair, shieldgrab his missed l-cancels, stifle his approaches with blizzards, dash dance grab his direct attacks, etc.
2. Campy, defensive Fox.
Dash dance camps. Laser camps. Bair camps. This Fox tries to react to your movements. He does safe moves and approaches minimally. You can't simply counter these tactics because everything he does is based on what you do. Therefore, you have to figure out how he is countering your assaults. Once you have a good idea of how he responds to you, start going through the motions of the attacks you've conditioned him to, then do whatever beats his response instead.
Example: Fox laser camps to bait your approach. Everytime you wavedash at him, he jumps above you and bairs. Adapt by wavedashing -> utilt/uair.
3. Smart, exploitive Fox.
Gauges your style and defensive choices. Does things in anticipation of what you're going to do. Doesn't blindly take the initiative or react to you. This Fox doesn't have set patterns either, though. He plays passive aggressively. Attacking, but only follows through if he knows it will work. If he picks up on your adaptation to his attack, he'll figure out a way around your counter.
Example: Fox notices that when he approaches with SHFFL'ed aerials, you always stand your ground and time fsmashes to outprioritize him. He starts running at you standardly. If, mid-run, he notices that you are standing your ground, he changes up his plan spur-of-the-moment and wavedashes in place. Your fsmash whiffs, and he gets a free punish.
This Fox is obviously the hardest to beat, and you basically just have to outplay him and constantly pressure him to force mistakes or carelessness.
I don't really know much about fighting Ganon. But I like to dash dance grab him when he approaches with fairs. You have to be mad careful though and aware of its range. Belay oos -> blizzard is also pretty ****. Oh, and dash attack is good in some situations.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
ganon i don't mind cuz i never lose to ganon with falco lol
this will change once i face linguini in tournament <3
and yeah chival i understand the fox playstyles vs ic's, but at least i want to be able to find more ways where i can at least reduce his options
i like fly's advice but ahhh it's hard for me to space like that, i think i just need to stop wding around so much and try to observe what i am doing. i think fox has a much easier time adapting and has way more options though... hmmmmm.
may i have some tactical advice for fox? like move choices that i make that are not very good, and some moves i can make to play the matchup better? i'll link my sets with sfat and obey
sfat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vOWX5PSKXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gb_YRg84b4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMMR4qPlNJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPUtv-4ZEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg1zEs5b4ug
sfat is really technical so i was thinking a lot about how to stay alive and disrupt his momentum haha. he does make mistakes, but when he's on his game he pretty much shuts me down like u can see in game 5
obey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Aey6NglnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92wAR_SX1HY
i think of the fresno players as the east coast within california.. they all play really gay and don't hesitate to camp. i feel that if obey knew this matchup better he'd **** me, but i was able to win cuz he doesn't do a lot of stuff which i know he could do better against ic's if he just knew lol
that said... i think my own fox would **** my own ic's
and i don't like that
so yea.... i just wanna know what i can do better. my playstyle is weird and based on momentum a lot of the time, but i will try to adapt whatever advice you give me into my game
this will change once i face linguini in tournament <3
and yeah chival i understand the fox playstyles vs ic's, but at least i want to be able to find more ways where i can at least reduce his options
i like fly's advice but ahhh it's hard for me to space like that, i think i just need to stop wding around so much and try to observe what i am doing. i think fox has a much easier time adapting and has way more options though... hmmmmm.
may i have some tactical advice for fox? like move choices that i make that are not very good, and some moves i can make to play the matchup better? i'll link my sets with sfat and obey
sfat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vOWX5PSKXw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gb_YRg84b4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMMR4qPlNJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPUtv-4ZEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg1zEs5b4ug
sfat is really technical so i was thinking a lot about how to stay alive and disrupt his momentum haha. he does make mistakes, but when he's on his game he pretty much shuts me down like u can see in game 5
obey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Aey6NglnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92wAR_SX1HY
i think of the fresno players as the east coast within california.. they all play really gay and don't hesitate to camp. i feel that if obey knew this matchup better he'd **** me, but i was able to win cuz he doesn't do a lot of stuff which i know he could do better against ic's if he just knew lol
that said... i think my own fox would **** my own ic's
and i don't like that
so yea.... i just wanna know what i can do better. my playstyle is weird and based on momentum a lot of the time, but i will try to adapt whatever advice you give me into my game
john!
Smash Hero
Hey I just figured out that you can cancel Nana's taunt with side-b or up-b... is this a NEW ADVANCED TECH? Or did anyone know about this? If it's new then call it Skank Canceling.
Vts
Smash Champion
Old info, and no one names stuff it kind of just happens.
Vanitas
Smash Ace
How does everyone go about in playing IC's in doubles?
What should i do and what shouldnt i do? :O
What should i do and what shouldnt i do? :O
GofG
Smash Champion
Thanks for your advice, fly, on the jiggs matchup.
Any chance I could get some more advice from you guys? There are two marths in NC who I can't beat, and the better of the two (seven) I got a set recorded with at herb3. Could you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9JUwBZILG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a12AYJJ3wY
please no comments about the up-b at 0:50
Any chance I could get some more advice from you guys? There are two marths in NC who I can't beat, and the better of the two (seven) I got a set recorded with at herb3. Could you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9JUwBZILG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a12AYJJ3wY
please no comments about the up-b at 0:50
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I've been lazy lately, but I'll try to address everything that's been said here recently later today.
edit: I'm exhausted at the moment, but I promise I'll post stuff this weekend. >_<
edit: I'm exhausted at the moment, but I promise I'll post stuff this weekend. >_<
choknater
Smash Obsessed
thanks fly youre legit
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You want to full jump for dthrow fair dsmash. I use up to jump and cstick the fair (it helps with the timing). Dthrow fair fsmash works, too, and does more damage.
Vts
Smash Champion
I suck 
that is all i wanted to say
that is all i wanted to say
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
No, I suck. I need to step it up.