Divinokage
Smash Legend
No bans in best of 5s.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
No bans in best of 5s.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
My set with Kevin was a best of 3. He banned Dreamland because he said that he usually loses to ICs on that stage.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Oh ok, whoops, well banning DL is a good pick imo.
cemo
white walker
dreamland is a pretty good ban too, especially since he was having trouble killing. i was also hoping to see trail's match with you kage but it doesn't seem to be up yet/recorded at all.
Engo
Smash Ace
Kage clutched the **** out of that match against Trail.
Alright, so I went to a Danish smash tournament this weekend and did rather well. I placed 2nd, which is a little disappointing, but I played really well and got to test a lot of new tricks that I've been trying to implement into my game so all's good. Some of the stuff I tested turned out to be kind of meh, but some of the tricks worked really well. Shield dropping has really improved my platform game thanks to ICs' fast and powerful aerials; dair is really nice to catch jumps as it comes out really fast and has little landing lag when l-/ edge-cancelled; CC to instant grab is a very powerful tool; and glide desync is still a great desync because it's really fast and it's really hard to see the set up.
One last trick which turned out to be really powerful is something I discovered not too long: Boost grabbing with synced climbers. It might sound odd, but this is definitely something every ICs player should start using. Most of you might have noticed that when you do a running grab with synced climbers Nana will often glide away meaning that she'll too far away to do stuff like wobbling right away. Well, for some reason if you do a boost grab (dash attack + grab) while controlling both climbers Nana won't go any where which means that you can do your strong punishes out a dash grab much faster than usual. Also, you can to dash dance grabs with this, which is awesome.
You can see the tricks I mentioned in this match from the tournament. The first match is kind of sloppy, but I play well in the second. The last grab I land in the last match is a dash dance boost grab into instant wobbling.
Hey16: Tomber (Ice Climbers) vs. Kikki (Captain Falcon) - Pools
Also, you should subscribe to our channel (SmashDenmark). A lot of matches are going to be uploaded in the following days, and I do a lot of neat ICs stuff in pretty much every of my matches from this tournament.
EDIT: Also, good ****, Nintendude.
One last trick which turned out to be really powerful is something I discovered not too long: Boost grabbing with synced climbers. It might sound odd, but this is definitely something every ICs player should start using. Most of you might have noticed that when you do a running grab with synced climbers Nana will often glide away meaning that she'll too far away to do stuff like wobbling right away. Well, for some reason if you do a boost grab (dash attack + grab) while controlling both climbers Nana won't go any where which means that you can do your strong punishes out a dash grab much faster than usual. Also, you can to dash dance grabs with this, which is awesome.
You can see the tricks I mentioned in this match from the tournament. The first match is kind of sloppy, but I play well in the second. The last grab I land in the last match is a dash dance boost grab into instant wobbling.
Hey16: Tomber (Ice Climbers) vs. Kikki (Captain Falcon) - Pools
Also, you should subscribe to our channel (SmashDenmark). A lot of matches are going to be uploaded in the following days, and I do a lot of neat ICs stuff in pretty much every of my matches from this tournament.
EDIT: Also, good ****, Nintendude.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Meanwhile, I feel like I've forgotten how to play this game and have been losing to lots of space animals lately, whom I've traditionally been strong against. At least my Sheik can still beat Peach and weird characters. I probably just need to play more.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I hate Fox and can't figure out how to reliably put up a wall against him. It's so hard to time the f-tilts and smashes required to stuff his approaches. SFAT's offense really blew me up at BH3.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
a "wall" is very easy to get past with fox
try to find a way to pressure him yourself.
his offense is amazing but he rarely puts up defense himself.
when i play him he runs into my dash attacks or random wd moves
then when he is down 4-2 he says "oh now i remember" and then he starts respecting my space, and dash dancing more
then he wins
but at least i have space
try to find a way to pressure him yourself.
his offense is amazing but he rarely puts up defense himself.
when i play him he runs into my dash attacks or random wd moves
then when he is down 4-2 he says "oh now i remember" and then he starts respecting my space, and dash dancing more
then he wins
but at least i have space
Hello Ice-friends. Have there been any more IC podcast things since the first one?
Fox vs. ICs is pretty much all about who makes the best punishes. And because Fox controls the ground the best, the match up is in his favour. Fly vs. SFAT from TBH2 is a really good example of this. SFAT dominates most of the time because he gets the most opening and punishes hard every time, but once SFAT starts missing the punishes Fly gets a chance to turn it all around. I took quite a few games off SFAT at EVO winning by a few stocks, where he would beat me pretty badly in the other games. That's just how the match goes, more or less.
Against Foxes who shine a lot I thing bigger stages like Dream Land and FD are the best given that you should get a KO off every opening you get no matter how big the stage is (I know wobbling was banned in this case. Silly TO). You want enough space to catch the shines with dash attack and WD jab/f-tilts. This is harder than it sounds though, because WD is punishable for Fox in most cases. Nevertheless, I think you would have had a better chance against SFAT on Dream Land/FD than FoD because he plays the way he does. (Against platform camping players stage like Yoshi's/FoD (and FD) are probably the best as I think ICs can win the platform-antiplatform game on these levels against Fox.)
I find myself shield a lot against shine pressure because I know I (/Nana) will probably get punished hard if I try to roll/WD away. Sometimes I get a free punish because the Fox messes up his pressure or I get a shine read, other times I just get hit because my shield gets poked through. It kind of sucks that it has to be like this, but IC just doesn't have solid answer to shine pressure because even though you might be able to WD/roll away with Popo, Nana might still be catch by a shine which is what the Fox player wants. Against SFAT you lose Nana a lot because you try to move out of shield. Here I would probably just stay in my shield and hope for the best until I've figured out his shine pattern. The way he double shine can often be shield grabbed if you just stay in you shield (like, in the beginning of the second game you might have gotten a free punish if you had just stayed in your shield and hadn't tried to jump out of it). Also, once the Fox realizes that his shine pressure isn't completely safe he starts to give you more space, camp platforms and stuff like that.
Also, as I've said before, I think you should use much more up-throw against Fox with you get a grab. It is a lot easier to follow up on compered to back-throw and down-throw as it can lead into some nice platform tech chases, and it deals more damage (around 3-4% more). And try stay more in sync with Nana do that she will move/shield/attack when you want her to.
TL;DR: Fox vs ICs is a losing MU for ICs on paper, so you have to make sure you punish the hardest and otherwise hope the Fox player makes at least a few mistakes in order to win.
EDIT: Also, yo wobbles. Have you read my guide yet? I'd really like to here your thoughts on it. I think you might like it. It's about wobbling and the psychology behind it/ICS.
And no, not that I know of.
Against Foxes who shine a lot I thing bigger stages like Dream Land and FD are the best given that you should get a KO off every opening you get no matter how big the stage is (I know wobbling was banned in this case. Silly TO). You want enough space to catch the shines with dash attack and WD jab/f-tilts. This is harder than it sounds though, because WD is punishable for Fox in most cases. Nevertheless, I think you would have had a better chance against SFAT on Dream Land/FD than FoD because he plays the way he does. (Against platform camping players stage like Yoshi's/FoD (and FD) are probably the best as I think ICs can win the platform-antiplatform game on these levels against Fox.)
I find myself shield a lot against shine pressure because I know I (/Nana) will probably get punished hard if I try to roll/WD away. Sometimes I get a free punish because the Fox messes up his pressure or I get a shine read, other times I just get hit because my shield gets poked through. It kind of sucks that it has to be like this, but IC just doesn't have solid answer to shine pressure because even though you might be able to WD/roll away with Popo, Nana might still be catch by a shine which is what the Fox player wants. Against SFAT you lose Nana a lot because you try to move out of shield. Here I would probably just stay in my shield and hope for the best until I've figured out his shine pattern. The way he double shine can often be shield grabbed if you just stay in you shield (like, in the beginning of the second game you might have gotten a free punish if you had just stayed in your shield and hadn't tried to jump out of it). Also, once the Fox realizes that his shine pressure isn't completely safe he starts to give you more space, camp platforms and stuff like that.
Also, as I've said before, I think you should use much more up-throw against Fox with you get a grab. It is a lot easier to follow up on compered to back-throw and down-throw as it can lead into some nice platform tech chases, and it deals more damage (around 3-4% more). And try stay more in sync with Nana do that she will move/shield/attack when you want her to.
TL;DR: Fox vs ICs is a losing MU for ICs on paper, so you have to make sure you punish the hardest and otherwise hope the Fox player makes at least a few mistakes in order to win.
EDIT: Also, yo wobbles. Have you read my guide yet? I'd really like to here your thoughts on it. I think you might like it. It's about wobbling and the psychology behind it/ICS.
And no, not that I know of.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I proposed holding a podcast a month or two ago and didn't get any responses, which I took to mean there was no interest. I'd still be interested in having one if others are.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I'm still up for doing it. I just haven't been around much in the past month or so. Weeknights after 11 EST work best for me.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
all the ic guys in a podcast? that'd be legit
Admiral!
Smash Apprentice
I enjoyed listening to the last one.
cemo
white walker
i would happily be a viewer.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
looks like the world wants it
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Maybe we can just pick 2 or 3 recent sets involving us and watch them together / analyze.
I'd love you guys to take a look at the GFs of a recent tournament I went to. It's me against Eagle, a Doc main from Denmark. I lost set 2 of GFs coming from losers, after losing to him in WFs. I'd appreciate some advice on the match up. The match will probably be uploaded later this week.
Also, I'll join you on Skype if the time zone differences allow me to.
Also, I'll join you on Skype if the time zone differences allow me to.
Winnar
Smash Lord
Hey dudes, on the smashbros subreddit there's a weekly general questions thread to help explain stuff to newer players. I usually take some time to answer questions, but I found an IC's question I found I couldn't answer. Here's the link to it, but basically how do you cancel the belay on ledge so nana gets thrown up but popo grabs the ledge? I was trying to figure this out yesterday but it's tricky! Thanks in advance.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
oh yeah forgot to post these for critique (they're about a month old now)
Derf vs Z-Axis (Sheik)
uhm I think for the most part here my punishes just weren't as strong as they needed to be and I am still approaching with WDs and getting punished for it a lot.
Derf vs KanyeRest (puff)
don't have much to say, kinda forgot how to really play the puff mu xD
Wasn't playing super serious, because I've never lost to Eli's puff with my ICs... but I still should have done better than I did.
Needed to be punishing better and not just throwing out smashes.
since this tournament I have started wobbling again though. I still mess up, but it's way more consistent again.
I'll be going to another tournament saturday, and hopefully a smashfest tonight, so I'll try to get some matches recored then.
Derf vs Z-Axis (Sheik)
uhm I think for the most part here my punishes just weren't as strong as they needed to be and I am still approaching with WDs and getting punished for it a lot.
Derf vs KanyeRest (puff)
don't have much to say, kinda forgot how to really play the puff mu xD
Wasn't playing super serious, because I've never lost to Eli's puff with my ICs... but I still should have done better than I did.
Needed to be punishing better and not just throwing out smashes.
since this tournament I have started wobbling again though. I still mess up, but it's way more consistent again.
I'll be going to another tournament saturday, and hopefully a smashfest tonight, so I'll try to get some matches recored then.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm in a bit of a hurry at the moment, but I can look at those later.
As for potential times for the podcast, I'm not busy nowadays, so any days that don't conflict with tourneys or other forms of smash events are good for me. Socal always has Sunday tourneys now, so those wouldn't be good for me, and I'm assuming Saturday wouldn't be good since that's when most other regions have tournaments. Any other day of the week is fine by me barring special occurrences, and so is the kind of late time that works for Nintendude.
As for potential times for the podcast, I'm not busy nowadays, so any days that don't conflict with tourneys or other forms of smash events are good for me. Socal always has Sunday tourneys now, so those wouldn't be good for me, and I'm assuming Saturday wouldn't be good since that's when most other regions have tournaments. Any other day of the week is fine by me barring special occurrences, and so is the kind of late time that works for Nintendude.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
to belay cancel, you have to belay right before popo would grab the ledge. play around with the timing and positioning and you'll get it
i don't have any diagrams or videos on me to be more specific, but watch wobbles' evo sets with mango and he does it a lot
it's about the timing and positioning
i don't have any diagrams or videos on me to be more specific, but watch wobbles' evo sets with mango and he does it a lot
it's about the timing and positioning
Engo
Smash Ace
How do Wobbles/Fly/Chudat/Trail have such smooth, quick movement without getting desynched -_-. My nana desynchs even just doing shffl'd aerials.
Does how fast you make inputs create the possibility of desynchs? It feels that way. Sometimes I'll try shuffling/spacing bairs/nairs and nana just gets left behind or she ends up randomly doing a dash attack instead. Watching trail's ic's at BH3, I noticed his climbers always moved smoothly as a unit and hardly ever got desynched. I'm trying to get my movement like that.
Does how fast you make inputs create the possibility of desynchs? It feels that way. Sometimes I'll try shuffling/spacing bairs/nairs and nana just gets left behind or she ends up randomly doing a dash attack instead. Watching trail's ic's at BH3, I noticed his climbers always moved smoothly as a unit and hardly ever got desynched. I'm trying to get my movement like that.
There are some common misinput desyncs which are important to be aware of and understand for ICs mains in order to get "smooth" movement.
I've tried to list some of the most common:
- If you input the l-cancel too early when l-cancelling aerials it's possible you'll make a l-cancel with Popo without it affecting Nana. This might mess up your timing as you won't be able to control Nana again as fast as you might think. I think this is what has happened to you. Not just, than it's probably normal land desyns that cause the problem.
- If you do a light shield with Nana and a normal shield with Popo, Popo will be able to move before Nana when shielding moves (less shield stun). This can result in stuff like if you try to roll out of pressure after your shield is hit, the roll input will only cause Popo to roll while Nana will just stay in her shield. The same goes for spot dodge/shieldgrab/WD/jump OoS.
- When trying to do near perfect wave lands with synced climbers, Nana will sometimes fail to do so resulting in a separation. I good way to avoid this is keeping in mind that you should do the air dodge earlier when you control both climbers. Keep the perfect wave lands to Sopo play.
- Pivot jumping can result in desyncs. If you do a dash with synced ICs on the same frame that you do a jump (wave dash), only Nana will do a jump/WD while Popo will just do a dash. This is in fact a very useful desync once mastered, but in most cases it this just messes up your WDs.
- Diverse combinaitons om dash, dash dance and wave dashes will result in separation. The best way to overcome this one is by playing around on your own and figure out which combinations that will result in both separations and useful desyncs.
The list goes on, but these are the most important to be aware of.
In other news, this is how I play the Peach match up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NKQCy_VevY
I've tried to list some of the most common:
- If you input the l-cancel too early when l-cancelling aerials it's possible you'll make a l-cancel with Popo without it affecting Nana. This might mess up your timing as you won't be able to control Nana again as fast as you might think. I think this is what has happened to you. Not just, than it's probably normal land desyns that cause the problem.
- If you do a light shield with Nana and a normal shield with Popo, Popo will be able to move before Nana when shielding moves (less shield stun). This can result in stuff like if you try to roll out of pressure after your shield is hit, the roll input will only cause Popo to roll while Nana will just stay in her shield. The same goes for spot dodge/shieldgrab/WD/jump OoS.
- When trying to do near perfect wave lands with synced climbers, Nana will sometimes fail to do so resulting in a separation. I good way to avoid this is keeping in mind that you should do the air dodge earlier when you control both climbers. Keep the perfect wave lands to Sopo play.
- Pivot jumping can result in desyncs. If you do a dash with synced ICs on the same frame that you do a jump (wave dash), only Nana will do a jump/WD while Popo will just do a dash. This is in fact a very useful desync once mastered, but in most cases it this just messes up your WDs.
- Diverse combinaitons om dash, dash dance and wave dashes will result in separation. The best way to overcome this one is by playing around on your own and figure out which combinations that will result in both separations and useful desyncs.
The list goes on, but these are the most important to be aware of.
In other news, this is how I play the Peach match up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NKQCy_VevY
choknater
Smash Obsessed
great use of platforms and nair
Yeah, I think platforms are really important against Peach as it's pretty much the only part of the stage where you can feel safe, and with shield dropping and such you can still approach with falling aerials when you get chance. This is one of the reasons why I think FD is the absolute worst stage a ICs player can pick against Peach. Every time you find yourself with Peach floating above you, you're losing the match up as this is a really bad position for ICs. You have to get Peach down on the ground yourself before you really can fight her, which is why I think Wobbles aggressive style works so well against Peach. ICs wins the MU on the ground (if you can space around her Down-smash), Peach wins once she's floating besides you.
And nair works out really well against Peach too. However, I feel that every time I get a nair I could have used uair or bair instead which would have resulted in more damage. Nair often covers more options, though, so it's still a pretty good move to use against her.
Here is my winners semi set from the tournament. I really like my movement in this set (especially the two first games) and I get some nice punishes, so I think it's worth a watch.
Hey16: Tomber (Ice Climbers) vs. Oskar (Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon)
And nair works out really well against Peach too. However, I feel that every time I get a nair I could have used uair or bair instead which would have resulted in more damage. Nair often covers more options, though, so it's still a pretty good move to use against her.
Here is my winners semi set from the tournament. I really like my movement in this set (especially the two first games) and I get some nice punishes, so I think it's worth a watch.
Hey16: Tomber (Ice Climbers) vs. Oskar (Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon)
choknater
Smash Obsessed
if you condition them to shield
this is pretty tough though
this is pretty tough though
cemo
white walker
you will probably want to throw right away if you get a grab. some throws have weird hitboxes or something that clash with the d-smash but i don't think that's the case for marth? you probably shouldn't go for grabs so much in the neutral game anyways, probably more of a follow up or when separated.
hi etienne.
I disagree, its never safe, if ICs is conditioned to shield, they should just use popo or nana to shieldgrab them around after they throw. Played some ealier with Android and thats one thing that gave me wobbling.
Learned a interesting good desynchoption that abuses the fact theres 2 of them. Desynch ICs so nana dashes forward and grabs>make her grab repeatly so she slides just a little bit backward, making a retreating desynched grab. This can be used for covering the option "release edge, jump up towards the stage", if nana gets a grab, fine, you just gotta react on her throwanimation and regrab or anything with popo, if she gets hit, popo is spaced far away enough that you can just punish their nanapunish. That gave me kills in form of wobbling too.
Learned a interesting good desynchoption that abuses the fact theres 2 of them. Desynch ICs so nana dashes forward and grabs>make her grab repeatly so she slides just a little bit backward, making a retreating desynched grab. This can be used for covering the option "release edge, jump up towards the stage", if nana gets a grab, fine, you just gotta react on her throwanimation and regrab or anything with popo, if she gets hit, popo is spaced far away enough that you can just punish their nanapunish. That gave me kills in form of wobbling too.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoK9ORCQpLY&list=PLNGHIresZ4b1VHJMLXCs9cGdv_ZZAZP9m
chudat has amazing fundamentals
chudat has amazing fundamentals
Indeed. It's just unfortunate that his grab punish game isn't better than it is. I feel that he would have a good shot against pretty much everyone if he implemented new school tools like hand offs and/or wobbling into his game.
I don't agree with this. Grabs can be really useful against ICs. In fact, I think that one of the main mistakes that people, being familiar with the ICs match up or not, make is that they are afraid to grab them. Several characters have throws that effectively can split the climbers up and/or put them in a bad position if you throw right after you get the grab. The thing is that those throws that work good against ICs are often not the same throws that you would use in other match ups. Marth's up-throw is great in pretty much every match up, where it's really risky against ICs. His' f-throw on the other hand can be useful against them to spilt them up, especially if the ICs' shield is weak so that the throw can shield stab. Throws like the Marios' back-throw, Falco's down-throw, and Jigglypuff's f-throw can be useful against ICs, while most up-throws in general are bad/risky against ICs.
Sheik doesn't really have any good throws against synced ICs, so if Android used her against you then yeah, that's rarely a good idea.
I don't agree with this. Grabs can be really useful against ICs. In fact, I think that one of the main mistakes that people, being familiar with the ICs match up or not, make is that they are afraid to grab them. Several characters have throws that effectively can split the climbers up and/or put them in a bad position if you throw right after you get the grab. The thing is that those throws that work good against ICs are often not the same throws that you would use in other match ups. Marth's up-throw is great in pretty much every match up, where it's really risky against ICs. His' f-throw on the other hand can be useful against them to spilt them up, especially if the ICs' shield is weak so that the throw can shield stab. Throws like the Marios' back-throw, Falco's down-throw, and Jigglypuff's f-throw can be useful against ICs, while most up-throws in general are bad/risky against ICs.
Sheik doesn't really have any good throws against synced ICs, so if Android used her against you then yeah, that's rarely a good idea.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Useful trick most of you probably know about: If Sheik grabs you, have Nana shield and then shieldgrab Sheik with Nana after she throws Popo. It's pretty reliable because down-throw doesn't push her away. What other characters can this work against?
Ive had ICs as a secondary for a while but im now thinking about maining them.
Im good at the technical aspect of the character ( all the desyncs, handoffs on the common characters and wobbling etc.)
but i need some tips for the neutral game.
I have problem with the marth matchup, it feels like he can just stand in place and Dtilt/Fsmash/fair me all day, any tips for that specific matchup.
also whats the best counter to raptorboost?
Im good at the technical aspect of the character ( all the desyncs, handoffs on the common characters and wobbling etc.)
but i need some tips for the neutral game.
I have problem with the marth matchup, it feels like he can just stand in place and Dtilt/Fsmash/fair me all day, any tips for that specific matchup.
also whats the best counter to raptorboost?
Ice blocks and blizzard wall work fairly good against Marth as he has a hard time approaching from above. If you hard read a d-tilt then you can sh fair over it for some great damage. It's a little risky as it's easily countered by moves like f-smash, but once you get one punish this way he'll be a little more careful with his d-tilts and think one more time before using them which is good. Otherwise you can jump OoS -> ice blocks to get around the d-tilt, rank up some nice damage, and get a better position. Nintendude's recent set against PPU is a good example of how well this can work. F-smash is countered by roll or shield -> WD grab/smash/stuff, and CC grab/smash is great for punishing fair.
Overall try to recognize patterns is the Marth's play style and choose your counter. Most players have a plan in mind before going against ICs. For Marth mains this could be stuff like d-tilt/fair spam, lots of throws/f-smashes etc. Try to figure our their game plan as fast as possible.
The most common raptorboost counter is shield facing away -> bair. You can use stuff like shield DI to get a shield grab, or even use up-tilt to cancel the side-b and afterwards be in grab range, but those two can be tricky to pull off.
Overall try to recognize patterns is the Marth's play style and choose your counter. Most players have a plan in mind before going against ICs. For Marth mains this could be stuff like d-tilt/fair spam, lots of throws/f-smashes etc. Try to figure our their game plan as fast as possible.
The most common raptorboost counter is shield facing away -> bair. You can use stuff like shield DI to get a shield grab, or even use up-tilt to cancel the side-b and afterwards be in grab range, but those two can be tricky to pull off.
Also, here are the GF sets I've mentioned earlier. I can highly recommend them as it's probably some of the best I've ever played and I get to use pretty much all of my new school ICs tricks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghTE8hGX77U
It would be awesome if we could discuss this set in the future ICs podcast. Comments are appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghTE8hGX77U
It would be awesome if we could discuss this set in the future ICs podcast. Comments are appreciated.
I have my final exam the 3rd january, unfortunately. I'll try to make it and hopefully be able to play in the singles tournament, though.
EDIT: Btw, you should all watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpaK9ulPTTw
EDIT: Btw, you should all watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpaK9ulPTTw