Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Smasher89]

Latest set me vs Calle W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaNoxcCJApg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DCP0nQKV3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlcPrByz3Ko

Comments is appriciated, even about failing the wobbling (anyone notices where the timing goes bad?) =)

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

that guy has some good DI and bad at avoiding grabs or your good at getting grabs. Great solo popo work in the 2nd match.

WTF he platform canceled in the 3rd match. really he ***** you uber hard when he gets started so maybe you should do something so he can't start up. I am not that good so My advice it's the best.

 

[Binx]

Latest set me vs Calle W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaNoxcCJApg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DCP0nQKV3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlcPrByz3Ko

Comments is appriciated, even about failing the wobbling (anyone notices where the timing goes bad?) =)

in the first match I notice some basic movement problems, you need to vary the timing of your wavedashes and mix them with dash dances, slow down a little on your grab combos too, you rush them and he gets out early, edgeguard simply and effectively, fmsmash/edge hog is about all you need vs spacies off the ledge, sometimes its okay to mix it up with other stuff or even go for aggressive edgeguards, its something you will learn to do with experience.

With Sopo you grab attack a lot, try doing a throw with no jab and tech chasing with a dsmash, over 80% I like immediate dthrow fsmash if they di up or not at all it often connects.

Use dthrow upsmash as well, he DIs up cause you already have him conditioned to fsmashes, you need to spend more time in your shield, wding into shield will keep him lasering and when you finally just wavedash and then dash attack he probably won't shield it in time.

Against this falco I would shield grab more because he doesn't seem to hit all his L cancels or shine enough.

MOST importantly you need to ledge hog more, move more fluidly, and be more aggressive after you land a hit, in that order.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Well the idea is not to do it when Nana will die, its just instead of sitting still and "fortressing" you dash dance and just make sure popo is always safe, Nana will eventually desynch from the evasive movement and if Fox hits her thats when you pounce, you're already close by, you don't even have to grab you can nair usually cause Fox's love to shine nair nana, you can also uair or go for a grab or usmash or if your really confident even an utilt. Things I find that usually don't connect are dash attacks and fairs, fairs have to much start up and dash attacks tend to be out spaced in that situation.

If Fox has you separated he can just shine Nana and either gimp her or jump and anticipate your approach (which might put you in a worse position). Even if you're close it's unlikely that any Fox is going to disregard you when he doesn't actually have to commit to anything. Punishing him from that position will always take a good read, and on top of that solo Popo isn't fantastic on capitalizing on his hits. Wobbles happens to be excellent at techchasing, but generally it's difficult with ICs.

I don't by any means "sit still", I constantly space with b-airs, u-airs, foxtrots, and wds; I'm just trying to conserve my space and not get separated.

 

[smakis]

you could try some roll/spotdodge to nana blizzard desynchs, can be unexpected if used at the correct times, especially against an aggressive player. Also have a bit more patience while chaingrabbing, you missed a lot of kill opportunities when a uthrow to charged usmash would had killed him but you decided to fsmash him instead. and learn the handoff grab, its **** rofl

 

[Binx]

ya i understand your points, but to be honest, Fox has a huge advantage vs ICs, hes faster has more priority a larger grab range, less lag, and a better recovery (in this match up) You aren't going to beat fox's unless you make good reads anyways, its not unwinnable by any stretch, but you have to take risks to win because you can't out camp fox, you have to trick him once and capitalize with a stock, whether you do it by baiting with nana, moving unexpectedly to mess with L cancel timing, or intercept his aerials with uairs you had to predict him in some way to even hit him, and that really is THE ONLY way to beat fox, because fox is better.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Fox vs ICs is even. I've tried to reason it out before but everyone's perception about this match-up ends up being total theorycraft. You can list all of Fox's advantages, but it doesn't mean those advantages are real or that they actually determine the outcome of the match-up. Speaking from personal experience, and results of other good IC players, the match-up really isn't as bad as it looks on paper.

 

[Binx]

Fox vs ICs is even. I've tried to reason it out before but everyone's perception about this match-up ends up being total theorycraft. You can list all of Fox's advantages, but it doesn't mean those advantages are real or that they actually determine the outcome of the match-up. Speaking from personal experience, and results of other good IC players, the match-up really isn't as bad as it looks on paper.

Chillin agreed with me that Fox had a pretty big advantage a couple years ago, I'm not trying to say its completely one sided, but the thing is, for ICs to win Fox has to make a mistake, the good part is that Ice Climbers have a lot of tools against Fox to make a single mistake branch into so much damage, so yes ICs and Fox are sort of even, but only in the sense that Fox will lose if he makes 4 or 5 mistakes that the IC notices in time to capitalize on.

For the most part though Fox is pressuring is the whole match, he can grab and fthrow immediately into shine pressure, he can just move carefully and punish any actions we make, its really a waiting game, and it all comes down to who makes the fewest mistakes, ICs have it tough in this match up.

And IMO Falco is almost as bad, now don't get me wrong, I don't go into this match expecting to lose, in fact I don't feel any character match up is that bad.

Here is an example of how Fox can pressure climbers and with careful movement avoid most reproaches.

Chu vs Jman - Yoshi Story

Here is what a few small mistakes from Fox can lead to.
Chu vs Shiz - FD

 

[Hyesz]

If hobbling wasn't banned. Maybe it would be even.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wobbling? really it would only help fox make fewer mistakes. wobbleing is death you want to avoid that at all cost. The chain throws work just as good but the possible is scarier to people.


hey is the frame data right?
D-Air

Total: 65
Hit: 3-52
Auto cancel: <2 58> WTF it should be nearly impossible not to auto cancel it
Landlag: 25
Lcanceled: 12
It didn't look like 4 frames of lag in 1/4 speed and I would think it would be able to combo into a jab if it only had 4 frames of lag

 

[Finch]

Latest set me vs Calle W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaNoxcCJApg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DCP0nQKV3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlcPrByz3Ko

Comments is appriciated, even about failing the wobbling (anyone notices where the timing goes bad?) =)

You have good spacing and control but you have serious problems with edgeguarding and decision making. If falco is far enough that he can only recover from the ledge, then get on the ****ing ledge. That first match you could have barely lost or won if you hadn't messed up three really easy edgeguards. Also, if you're tech chasing at high percents, don't mess around with regrab, just dsmash. It's falco, he's gonna die real quick from bad di. In the second match you had him over 100 and you tech chased into regrab 3 times, then did a forward throw, which was the worst possible option in that situation. You know how to get your hits in, but work on being more efficient.

As far as wobbling goes you just have no rhythm lol. Not sure what to tell you there. idk why you were trying to wobble so much anyway since calle w clearly wasn't getting out of dthrow dair. You had the 3rd match won at 1:52 but you threw it away with a failed wobble.

 

[pockyD]

fox vs ICs MIGHT be close to even in a few places, but the fact that ICs have unwinnable stages vs fox whereas fox has zero unwinnable stages gives fox a good edge

 

[Kyu Puff]

Which stages are unwinnable? Rainbow Cruise is only difficult until you get back to the main ship sequence; it definitely gives Fox an advantage but it's not so much different than his cps against every other character. I personally ban Pokefloats.

Edit -- I think the pound ruleset heavily favors ICs in this match-up. Game 1 will usually be either Dreamland or FoD, and if you ban Rainbow Cruise his only cp options are Yoshi's and Pokemon Stadium.

 

[Finch]

I'm pretty sure I've seen chu counterpick both cruise and pokefloats against foxes lol. Unwinnable is a really scrubby term.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

I'm pretty sure I've seen chu counterpick both cruise and pokefloats against foxes lol. Unwinnable is a really scrubby term.

I have also seen Chu play as Icys there, but are you sure you saw him CP there?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I have seriously considered taking Foxes to Pokefloats before. I've had a recent trend of beating somebody first round, then they go to Pokefloats and I win by a bigger margin there.

 

[Wobbles]

I have weird stage preference -_- I prefer playing on Yoshi's, FoD, and I actually *enjoy* being taken to Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. FD feels really... awesome, yet terrible at the same time. You can do some guaranteed combos to fastfallers there that AREN'T d-throw d-air, but at the same time when Nana gets hit she's just toast. No platforms to give her AI any variability... it's all on your opponent, and if he's bright enough to swap between you and Nana you lose control AND you get hit.

I really don't know what to think about stage strategy anymore -_-

 

[Ballistics]

you would like pound 4 stages

 

[Binx]

I have weird stage preference -_- I prefer playing on Yoshi's, FoD, and I actually *enjoy* being taken to Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. FD feels really... awesome, yet terrible at the same time. You can do some guaranteed combos to fastfallers there that AREN'T d-throw d-air, but at the same time when Nana gets hit she's just toast. No platforms to give her AI any variability... it's all on your opponent, and if he's bright enough to swap between you and Nana you lose control AND you get hit.

I really don't know what to think about stage strategy anymore -_-

I can't stand not having flat surfaces, it really messes with my wavedashing, I think a good part of it is that I never really practice much on CP levels.

I had a fox CP brinstar the other day but I was playing Peach for funsies so I just stayed her, pretty confident I would have done better with ICs but no big deal.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wavedashing is hardcore.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

not as hardcore as down-smashing and wavedashing. it's the sound of ****

 

[Smasher89]

Thanks for the comments, allways nice to learn something new, I´ve not thought about the dthrow Usmash "combo", I´ll keep that in mind =), and the edgehog of course with more.

I agree on that playing on FoD seems quite good for ICs, i guess it´s just because I rarely fight any peaches on it (except for AR).

IMO it must be that camping has taken a whole new level (or gotten back to that level) since some old american proplayers "quit" and jigglypuff (lol) started dominating in the states :/ .

That caused players to play more lame/waiting game and less inspirational with conditioning which should be superior.

My favoritestages against Fox is actually princess peach castle and Onett (nice that we haven´t they banned like the rest of the world =) ),
Sure they are foxstages but in PAL it feels like ICs almost could get an advantage on Onett even though shineinfinite makes it a bit harder, but one messup and I´ve got a grab^^, and the fact foxes quite rarely plays on them makes it only better...

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Am I wrong for thinking Japes may be a good stage? Or maybe, I just find it fun.

 

[Zone]

I've been playing around with Ice Climbers for fun. What are some ways you guys desynch? And how do you make Nana charge a smash attack at the edge while Popo is edgehogging.

One more question, I just down throw, and I make Nana Down-air accordingly. And people either DI behind me, or infront. I seem to always get tricked, Am I messing up the downthrow Down-air if they can DI behind me? It happens so fast I'm not sure if I can do it by reaction. Also anything to do after a grab besides Wobble, downthrow down air, and Down B while in a grab.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

spot dodges are good and you can hold down something at the beggining of the match. rolls are good if youu are trying to escape and counter attcak I geuss I rarly use rolls. really down-B or wobbling is the best thing to do during a grab but you can try different things if you just.

Which down-throw dair chain are you doing? revesre or normal? You may be switching or something other that I don't think you would be making any mistakes.


you will love the infin. things you could do and you will get idea crazy.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I've been playing around with Ice Climbers for fun. What are some ways you guys desynch? And how do you make Nana charge a smash attack at the edge while Popo is edgehogging.

One more question, I just down throw, and I make Nana Down-air accordingly. And people either DI behind me, or infront. I seem to always get tricked, Am I messing up the downthrow Down-air if they can DI behind me? It happens so fast I'm not sure if I can do it by reaction. Also anything to do after a grab besides Wobble, downthrow down air, and Down B while in a grab.

Charge a smash and wavedash to the ledge without letting go of A. Nana will release the smash as soon as you grab the ledge, though.

Either you're d-airing too early or you're hitting with the wrong part of it. They only go behind you when you hit with the back of d-air's hitbox. You want to just sh d-air in place.

 

[Binx]

For the dthrow CG make sure to short hop it and DI it forward a little and DO NOT L cancel it then you grab as fast as you can.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

At the last three tourneys I've been to, I've lost to nothing but Peaches and Hugo. I think it's time to bring back the Sheik, if only for Peach.

edit: I think HugS has been beating me lately because he's realized that I'm really bad at coping with Samus' shield pressure. Does anybody have any good ideas for dealing with spaced jab-cancels into the shield? As far as I can tell, rolling/wavedashing/jumping between jabs all will result in at least one of the ICs getting hit. I'm wondering if there's any other esoteric options that I'm not considering.

Also, I tested out the dthrow -> charged smashed -> re-grab thing I mentioned a while ago and it actually works pretty well. The timing on Fox/Falco isn't too difficult, especially with dsmash.

 

[Kyu Puff]

That sounds cool, when you first mentioned it I tried it with f-smash but couldn't get it to work. You wait until right before they hit the ground and release the d-smash?

 

[pockyD]

up-b blizzard!

 

[Fly_Amanita]

That sounds cool, when you first mentioned it I tried it with f-smash but couldn't get it to work. You wait until right before they hit the ground and release the d-smash?

Pretty much. I wish I had a better sense of the timing it takes, but what was working best for me was to release the dsmash right as Fox/Falco looks like he passes into the dsmash's range and pressing Z right after letting go of A.

up-b blizzard!

This isn't fast enough to beat jab-cancels. It's pretty good against ftilt, though.

edit: Do invulnerability frames come out faster for rolling or for jumping and instantly airdodging? I'm guessing it's the former, but I want to be positive.

 

[Smasher89]

I for the record have like no NTSC samus experience (where she has faster jab for example and another weight) so it might not work in that specific situation. WD autocanceled bair to dsmash should atleast give some heavy pressure on the shield.

Just came to think up with something "new" now not tested, autocancel bair, turnaround dsmash(to make it more delay between the hits and therefore more pressure).

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Here's another thing I've been thinking of trying, but always forget to. How about dropping the shield or wavedashing in place between jabs and CCing? I suspect it wouldn't work, but I think it's worth trying.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Rolling is faster than jump + airdodge, but I'm pretty sure you can safely wd away.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fly, methinks you could get around Hugo's shield pressure by light shielding his ftilts. If he's jab cancelling on your shield, you should be able to grab him in-between the hits. If you notice that he starts spot dodging the shield grab, then you can just wavedash backward out of shield to escape or grab him when the spot dodge ends.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

ICs' grab range isn't long enough to punish well-spaced jabs. I can already cope with ftilt pretty well.

I like Kyu Puff's suggestion. Maybe I'll wait until the jabs push me sort of far and then retreat. I think Nana would still get hit, but this still sounds better than most alternatives.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If you're worried about Nana getting hit out of the wavedash, wouldn't the obvious choice be to just buffer a roll? It's not very easy for Samus to punish a roll. I mean her footspeed isn't all that great, nor does her grab really have the range or speed to cover that option.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I still think Nana would get before the invulnerability frames of her roll kick in, but maybe I'm wrong. If not, that would be really be good. Otherwise, I'd prefer to wavedash backwards since Popo is able to act sooner after wavedashing than he is after rolling.

 

[Lovage]

fly is the 2nd best ice climbers in the US

just wanted to let you all know

 

[choknater]

think hes better than wobbs?

maybe :D id believe it

flys too legit