Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
You could beat that character by sitting on a platform and moving to another one when you see the jump-start animation begin.
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Social General Ice Climber Chat
- Thread starter dj asakura
- Start date
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Hey man, Bowser mains already know he is trash, no need to rub it in.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lolling
john!
Smash Hero
not if the character is peach with 100% bomb chance
choknater
Smash Obsessed
the more i think about ic's vs puff, the more i think it is one-sided in ic's favor LOL
i think i'ts like 80:20 now
i think i'ts like 80:20 now
Couldnt agree more, it´s like puff > peach, but instead ICs > puff, theres a few gimmicks that puff has, but I can only count them to 2 that has been "reliable", but wont work if the IC player do one of several ways of countering it.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
yeah, seriously. i think puff has one VERY SPECIFIC sweetspot/range against ic's.
it's the range that forces ic's to wavedash, but close enough to punish a roll away. even then, puff has to get a punish that will kill ic's for sure LOL.
even at super close range, ic's dair, or dair out of shield, beat stuff if puff doesn't space. if puff spaces a bair and fades away, wd away or roll away. or wd toward fsmash/dsmash for the punish LOL.
ic's are advantageous in almost every situation
it's the range that forces ic's to wavedash, but close enough to punish a roll away. even then, puff has to get a punish that will kill ic's for sure LOL.
even at super close range, ic's dair, or dair out of shield, beat stuff if puff doesn't space. if puff spaces a bair and fades away, wd away or roll away. or wd toward fsmash/dsmash for the punish LOL.
ic's are advantageous in almost every situation
choknater
Smash Obsessed
it's funny cuz ic's "shield grab" in this matchup is more like wd forward out of shield and grab
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Happy Thanksgiving! IC's players
n_n
~Vman~
n_n
~Vman~
choknater
Smash Obsessed
same to you v-man!
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
What do guys think about the handspeed required to play ic's compared to other characters? Especially with being able to control nana?
Vts
Smash Champion
crazy for what i'm been practicing since bunbun gave me the idea lol,What do guys think about the handspeed required to play ic's compared to other characters? Especially with being able to control nana?
so far i can do desync nairs in a spot but i cant use l-canceling yet on it cus it's so crazy fast already but once i get it going it will be crazy shield pressure if i can get the desync started which seems to be the hardest part
normally just basic normal character hand speed
choknater
Smash Obsessed
medium to hard. i'd say that after fox, yoshi, and falco, they are among the more technically demanding characters.What do guys think about the handspeed required to play ic's compared to other characters? Especially with being able to control nana?
however they are more based on timing than hand speed
unless you're going for continuous desynch strategies which are unsafe anyway haha. freakin hard though
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I was brainstorming ways of dealing with turnip approaches with both ICs this morning. With Popo, it's really easy to just catch a turnip and you can often hit and combo Peach with it afterwards, but it's harder to do that with two ICs for a number of reasons. Catching a turnip often desynchs the ICs awkwardly and throwing a turnip with Popo on the ground often results in Nana catching it, which is really inconvenient. Anyways, here are some other possible options:
(1) Do a short hop fastfall desynch -> Popo fair/nair/dair -> Nana full hop fair/nair/blizzard. The idea is to stop the turnip with Popo's aerial and have Nana hit Peach out of her float; blizzard is probably the most versatile and safest way she can do this, but I could see a dashing jump forward into fair or nair also working sometimes. The big downside to this is that doing it on reaction might be tricky; stopping the turnip with fair would probably require some premeditation. You could pull out a nair or dair faster, but it might be harder to stop a turnip with those. I'd also be concerned about the Peach getting used to this and simply sitting back if she sees you short hop after she jumps and throws a turnip.
(2) Pivot fsmash -> Nanapult/fair/nair. The idea is pretty much the same as in (1). This option is nicer in that it's much easier to do this on reaction than it is to do the whole short hop fall desynch, but the pivot desynch requires greater precision. It's also nice in that fsmash has good coverage and you don't have to worry about Popo's attack's hitbox missing the turnip. A probable downside worth mentioning is that it'll be harder to follow-up Nana's attack with Popo since Popo lags longer with this option.
(3) Short hop double turnip catch -> drop. I'll preface this by saying that an okay response to turnips with a lot of characters is to short hop and immediately catch and drop; for example, Marths do this often. I didn't like this with ICs since doing this with Popo would usually make Nana nair, which is no good, but a way of dealing with this is to simply press Z twice very quickly (I think it would be fine if the second press is within 6 frames of the first, but there might be some border conditions that might make the necessary precision a little tighter). If you press Z twice quickly enough, I think Popo should drop the turnip quickly enough for Nana to also catch it and immediately drop it rather than just nair. If so, this would be really nice for a number of reasons. It would be easy to do on reaction and you could immediately waveland out of it, either away to safety or towards Peach to intercept her. You could also go for a surprise side-B to intercept Peach before you land. If this works the way I think it should, it would probably be the best option in this list.
(4) I have absolutely no idea if this will work and I just thought of it this moment, but it might be possible to jump, catch a turnip with Popo, and immediately go into a double squall after that. Whether this works depends on a particular quirk of squall hammer that I haven't thought about much. In order for the double squall to start, Nana needs to be in a state in which she is available to do the move. I don't know what the exact conditions are, but a few are that she needs to be decently close to Popo, not in tumble, not in her shield, and not doing certain moves (although IIRC, some of her moves are interruptable after a certain point with squall; I could be wrong about that). Normally, if she's just jumping in the air right next to Popo, you can start a squall with no problems; hence, if you catch a turnip with Popo and start squall before her nair begins, you might be able to a double squall. However, I don't know if Nana having an action in queue changes her ability to be part of double squall.
(1) Do a short hop fastfall desynch -> Popo fair/nair/dair -> Nana full hop fair/nair/blizzard. The idea is to stop the turnip with Popo's aerial and have Nana hit Peach out of her float; blizzard is probably the most versatile and safest way she can do this, but I could see a dashing jump forward into fair or nair also working sometimes. The big downside to this is that doing it on reaction might be tricky; stopping the turnip with fair would probably require some premeditation. You could pull out a nair or dair faster, but it might be harder to stop a turnip with those. I'd also be concerned about the Peach getting used to this and simply sitting back if she sees you short hop after she jumps and throws a turnip.
(2) Pivot fsmash -> Nanapult/fair/nair. The idea is pretty much the same as in (1). This option is nicer in that it's much easier to do this on reaction than it is to do the whole short hop fall desynch, but the pivot desynch requires greater precision. It's also nice in that fsmash has good coverage and you don't have to worry about Popo's attack's hitbox missing the turnip. A probable downside worth mentioning is that it'll be harder to follow-up Nana's attack with Popo since Popo lags longer with this option.
(3) Short hop double turnip catch -> drop. I'll preface this by saying that an okay response to turnips with a lot of characters is to short hop and immediately catch and drop; for example, Marths do this often. I didn't like this with ICs since doing this with Popo would usually make Nana nair, which is no good, but a way of dealing with this is to simply press Z twice very quickly (I think it would be fine if the second press is within 6 frames of the first, but there might be some border conditions that might make the necessary precision a little tighter). If you press Z twice quickly enough, I think Popo should drop the turnip quickly enough for Nana to also catch it and immediately drop it rather than just nair. If so, this would be really nice for a number of reasons. It would be easy to do on reaction and you could immediately waveland out of it, either away to safety or towards Peach to intercept her. You could also go for a surprise side-B to intercept Peach before you land. If this works the way I think it should, it would probably be the best option in this list.
(4) I have absolutely no idea if this will work and I just thought of it this moment, but it might be possible to jump, catch a turnip with Popo, and immediately go into a double squall after that. Whether this works depends on a particular quirk of squall hammer that I haven't thought about much. In order for the double squall to start, Nana needs to be in a state in which she is available to do the move. I don't know what the exact conditions are, but a few are that she needs to be decently close to Popo, not in tumble, not in her shield, and not doing certain moves (although IIRC, some of her moves are interruptable after a certain point with squall; I could be wrong about that). Normally, if she's just jumping in the air right next to Popo, you can start a squall with no problems; hence, if you catch a turnip with Popo and start squall before her nair begins, you might be able to a double squall. However, I don't know if Nana having an action in queue changes her ability to be part of double squall.
Vts
Smash Champion
all i know is fly can dig an amazing sand pit hole and show off his sexy abs :D
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
LOL
I remember that
Good times
I remember that
Good times
the_irish_dude
SCG TO
I did somethin Against dualcats I've surprisingly never done before. While he was off the ledge I fsmashed after he tech'd the ledge and it meteored him straight down. Took me by surprise lol
choknater
Smash Obsessed
perhaps he hit the stage?
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
sounds like bad SDI down and ASDI
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I'm just chiming in to say that (3) and (4) in my last post do indeed work. I haven't tried them out in a round yet, but they seem pretty cool.
I also plan on writing an ICs guide or two within this month.
I also plan on writing an ICs guide or two within this month.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
#4 sounds cool
I bet it catches people of guard.
I bet it catches people of guard.
Vts
Smash Champion
Fly you going to apex?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I probably won't go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl6LLPilk5I#t=07m03s What options do I have in that situation?
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
are you talking about the rapid kick?
if so wd back would be best option cause he is close to edge,
sh fair would probably work if spaced right, maybe empty sh DI back to bait him onto platform.
just dont roll behind him
if so wd back would be best option cause he is close to edge,
sh fair would probably work if spaced right, maybe empty sh DI back to bait him onto platform.
just dont roll behind him
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i played enough level 9 fox to know that we don't have any frame advantage if we shield or CC
however, cc moves will sometimes work.
to me, di/sdi away or wd back is the best option. to prevent that situation, shield grab the jabs. if the jab hits, just di away
resetting to neutral after fox gets less than 10% on you is not that bad
however, cc moves will sometimes work.
to me, di/sdi away or wd back is the best option. to prevent that situation, shield grab the jabs. if the jab hits, just di away
resetting to neutral after fox gets less than 10% on you is not that bad
Ok, though a shieldgrab was guarantied, I guess I was wrong^^
Another technical thing from messing around a couple of hours, probably soemone uses it.
Seems to work on fox.
Uthrow Fox>Jump "after/before" with Nana to the platform>regrab>react with for example a fair or usmash depending on direction of the throw.
Another technical thing from messing around a couple of hours, probably soemone uses it.
Seems to work on fox.
Uthrow Fox>Jump "after/before" with Nana to the platform>regrab>react with for example a fair or usmash depending on direction of the throw.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I feel kind of honored that I sparked this. And I remember one of them, I think (the 3rd one sounds vaguely familiar, anyways). You should play Baka in some more friendlies and find out.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
If I'm reading this correctly, stuff like this is okay on levels with really low platforms. FoD's platforms and the inner edges of Yoshi's platforms come to mind; anything slightly higher than that doesn't work since you lose control of Nana's AI. Anyways, I rarely do something exactly like this, but if Nana is already above me on a low platform, then I'll just uthrow and do something with her; what exactly depends on the character and percentages. If it's anybody at a low percentages, I usually just grab again with Nana and then combo off her throw with Popo. At higher percentagers, I dsmash/fsmash most characters and usmash floaties.
I don't generally find myself in this situation that often, though, since I've gotten better about not having Nana trapped on random platforms.
Fly is right, since Nanas AI has to follow popo to regrab.
A reason why this can work is that alot of players holds up to DI then tries to react to smash DI, so their DI wont work on the upthrow.
Tested it against Falcon, seems stricter since he will probably get out of his tumbleanimation, good thing he can be grabbed right when he gets into nana.
Noticed something that can be used for earlier kills:
Uthrow>Nana upsmash on the platform!!!
A reason why this can work is that alot of players holds up to DI then tries to react to smash DI, so their DI wont work on the upthrow.
Tested it against Falcon, seems stricter since he will probably get out of his tumbleanimation, good thing he can be grabbed right when he gets into nana.
Noticed something that can be used for earlier kills:
Uthrow>Nana upsmash on the platform!!!
GhllieShdeKnife
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2010
- Messages
- 687
uthrow>fsmash on plat is good if they aren't lined up
but it is better to have nana with you in most situations
something ive noticed:
spot dodge to nana edgehog follow with popo edge guard
but it is better to have nana with you in most situations
something ive noticed:
spot dodge to nana edgehog follow with popo edge guard
choknater
Smash Obsessed
feel like i haven't developed anything new for a while
itching for another tourny
itching for another tourny
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
I got third at a tourney yesterday. Number-wise, that's the worst I've done in the past six or months minus Genesis 2, but we actually had a decent turnout for a change, so I'm not upset about it; at most recent tourneys here, there have been only a couple heavy hitters at any one event, so it was nice to have lots of solid players together (me/S2J/Lovage/Wes in particular, but also Stab/Sung/Hyprid and some other respectably decent players).
Some poorly formatted and somewhat improvisational remarks/thoughts:
S2J is hard. I played him in WF and I generally felt that I was playing really solidly; aside from a few typical moments of idiocy, I generally stayed level-headed and executed well. He still beat me 3-1, though. I'll need to watch over the videos later, but I think the big deciding factor is that he kills me at way lower percentages than I kill him. I think it's inevitable that this will always be the case to some extent, but as it is, I generally don't kill him until something like 150% whereas he can typically kill me around 100%; killing me around 80% wasn't uncommon, either. The only thing I can think of at the moment to help alleviate this is to stick more firmly to the center of the stage. I generally like to stay a little off to the sides (although still decently far from the edges since ICs are terrible there), but it might help a little to try to stay as far from the opposite edge as possible; if nothing else, this should help prevent dthrow -> knee KOs at 70-80%. I also recall some Falcon saying that Chu could always get out of dthrow -> knee whereas other ICs wouldn't, so I think I'll trying varying my DI a bit and maybe trying some other stuff to get away from that. On one occasion, I did escape a dthrow -> knee by DI'ing away and mashing X/Y to jump as soon as possible and then airdodging up and in, which did avoid the knee; generally speaking, I think Falcon could punish me for that afterwards, but I might be able to get away with airdodging at a different angle. Overall, I'm sure there are other little things that I could have done better which I'll have to identify when videos get up.
Lovage was on-and-off at this tourney. I beat him convincingly in winners-semis. and while I do feel that I was playing quite well this set, he was also less precise and adaptive than he usually is. This carried on into his set with Wes in losers-semis, but he sharpened up near the end of that and he then beat me in LFs. He wrecked me in the first two games, but I managed to bring the set to a close game 5; it was too little to late, though, and the better player won. In a kind of strange way, I was a little reassured by this set, but more on that later. I was confused during and after the first two rounds; the way Lovage was playing wasn't really fundamentally /that/ different than how he was playing in winners; IIRC, his execution was notably better and he did a much better job of killing off Nana, but I wasn't noticing anything else drastically out of the ordinary. I think I realized sometime during the second round that I simply just wasn't playing the match-up the same way I was in winners and Oscar was catching me with stuff that I wasn't falling for earlier. This simple realization came too late, though, and Oscar caught onto on my revisions in the fifth game, in which he was much more cautious about how he approached me and it payed off; kudos to him for being great, as always.
On the bright side, I know why I didn't catch onto what I needed to change earlier and I think I can hence adapt more quickly in the future. After I lose a game, I like to ask myself what went wrong. Since I beat Oscar solidly in winners, I was initially thinking he must have been doing something notably different, but I wasn't noticing much, hence my confusion that I noted earlier. Instead of asking myself "What is he doing differently now?", I should have reverted to the more basic question: "What went wrong?" I think if I had done this, I might have corrected my faults sooner.
I think I should also add "Don't get desperate" to the list of things that I should periodically remind myself of mid-match given certain cues. Like, I can't punish/counter a full-jump Fox bair with dsmash/CC dsmash, yet I try it anyways sometimes; my hope that this will sometimes work against a good player is a pipe dream that needs to die. If I catch myself doing it, I need to quickly break that habit. (retrospective note: huge tangent warning) Dsmash isn't even all that good in many regards in a lot of match-ups. Its strength is that it doesn't have much lag, it has good knockback, and it comes out very quickly. However, its hitbox is low and it doesn't cover all that much space, so for straight-up beating things, its applications are limited. Also, it only comes out quickly in the back, and hence is often not a great CC move when facing foward. I should try to remind myself not to use this move unless I'm confident I can hit a grounded foe with it. On a related note, I think I'll replace some of my jab -> dsmashes with jab -> ftilt, due to the aforementioned speed issue. I'm also starting to use a decent amount of CC -> dtilt instead of CC -> dsmash for similar reasons if I CC a move that was spaced-decently well in front of me, but not outside of dtilt's range. /tangent
Unless I'm forgetting something, that's more or less all I wanted to cover. It's nice playing very good opponents again since I haven't had a chance to really reflect/identify many of my faults lately, and I think I had gotten a bit lazy when it comes to improvement the past several months since I didn't have much incentive to then, but my competitive drive is acting up again. Cheers to Melee.
Also, I do plan on getting an ICs guide up within the next couple weeks (I'll aim for this week, which I should easily be able to achieve provided I don't procrastinate). It's largely going to be an introductory thing that won't be of much use to the regulars here, but will hopefully be helpful for people looking to pick up the character.
Some poorly formatted and somewhat improvisational remarks/thoughts:
S2J is hard. I played him in WF and I generally felt that I was playing really solidly; aside from a few typical moments of idiocy, I generally stayed level-headed and executed well. He still beat me 3-1, though. I'll need to watch over the videos later, but I think the big deciding factor is that he kills me at way lower percentages than I kill him. I think it's inevitable that this will always be the case to some extent, but as it is, I generally don't kill him until something like 150% whereas he can typically kill me around 100%; killing me around 80% wasn't uncommon, either. The only thing I can think of at the moment to help alleviate this is to stick more firmly to the center of the stage. I generally like to stay a little off to the sides (although still decently far from the edges since ICs are terrible there), but it might help a little to try to stay as far from the opposite edge as possible; if nothing else, this should help prevent dthrow -> knee KOs at 70-80%. I also recall some Falcon saying that Chu could always get out of dthrow -> knee whereas other ICs wouldn't, so I think I'll trying varying my DI a bit and maybe trying some other stuff to get away from that. On one occasion, I did escape a dthrow -> knee by DI'ing away and mashing X/Y to jump as soon as possible and then airdodging up and in, which did avoid the knee; generally speaking, I think Falcon could punish me for that afterwards, but I might be able to get away with airdodging at a different angle. Overall, I'm sure there are other little things that I could have done better which I'll have to identify when videos get up.
Lovage was on-and-off at this tourney. I beat him convincingly in winners-semis. and while I do feel that I was playing quite well this set, he was also less precise and adaptive than he usually is. This carried on into his set with Wes in losers-semis, but he sharpened up near the end of that and he then beat me in LFs. He wrecked me in the first two games, but I managed to bring the set to a close game 5; it was too little to late, though, and the better player won. In a kind of strange way, I was a little reassured by this set, but more on that later. I was confused during and after the first two rounds; the way Lovage was playing wasn't really fundamentally /that/ different than how he was playing in winners; IIRC, his execution was notably better and he did a much better job of killing off Nana, but I wasn't noticing anything else drastically out of the ordinary. I think I realized sometime during the second round that I simply just wasn't playing the match-up the same way I was in winners and Oscar was catching me with stuff that I wasn't falling for earlier. This simple realization came too late, though, and Oscar caught onto on my revisions in the fifth game, in which he was much more cautious about how he approached me and it payed off; kudos to him for being great, as always.
On the bright side, I know why I didn't catch onto what I needed to change earlier and I think I can hence adapt more quickly in the future. After I lose a game, I like to ask myself what went wrong. Since I beat Oscar solidly in winners, I was initially thinking he must have been doing something notably different, but I wasn't noticing much, hence my confusion that I noted earlier. Instead of asking myself "What is he doing differently now?", I should have reverted to the more basic question: "What went wrong?" I think if I had done this, I might have corrected my faults sooner.
I think I should also add "Don't get desperate" to the list of things that I should periodically remind myself of mid-match given certain cues. Like, I can't punish/counter a full-jump Fox bair with dsmash/CC dsmash, yet I try it anyways sometimes; my hope that this will sometimes work against a good player is a pipe dream that needs to die. If I catch myself doing it, I need to quickly break that habit. (retrospective note: huge tangent warning) Dsmash isn't even all that good in many regards in a lot of match-ups. Its strength is that it doesn't have much lag, it has good knockback, and it comes out very quickly. However, its hitbox is low and it doesn't cover all that much space, so for straight-up beating things, its applications are limited. Also, it only comes out quickly in the back, and hence is often not a great CC move when facing foward. I should try to remind myself not to use this move unless I'm confident I can hit a grounded foe with it. On a related note, I think I'll replace some of my jab -> dsmashes with jab -> ftilt, due to the aforementioned speed issue. I'm also starting to use a decent amount of CC -> dtilt instead of CC -> dsmash for similar reasons if I CC a move that was spaced-decently well in front of me, but not outside of dtilt's range. /tangent
Unless I'm forgetting something, that's more or less all I wanted to cover. It's nice playing very good opponents again since I haven't had a chance to really reflect/identify many of my faults lately, and I think I had gotten a bit lazy when it comes to improvement the past several months since I didn't have much incentive to then, but my competitive drive is acting up again. Cheers to Melee.
Also, I do plan on getting an ICs guide up within the next couple weeks (I'll aim for this week, which I should easily be able to achieve provided I don't procrastinate). It's largely going to be an introductory thing that won't be of much use to the regulars here, but will hopefully be helpful for people looking to pick up the character.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
you got this fly
meanwhile i want to go to sfat/ppu's training house before they leave for apex
meanwhile i want to go to sfat/ppu's training house before they leave for apex
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
It's very frustrating when you feel like you play solidly, make few glaring errors, and still lose. S2J is just that good I think. I've had that feeling before.
BTW against D-throw Knee I've done DJ -> airdodge away and then get hit by weak knee; then the situation is reset to neutral in most cases. Otherwise I'd suggest closer to down as possible.
BTW against D-throw Knee I've done DJ -> airdodge away and then get hit by weak knee; then the situation is reset to neutral in most cases. Otherwise I'd suggest closer to down as possible.
Binx
Smash Master
How do you guys approach falco, I've tried jumping into lasers with blizzard, short hop desynchs into nana pults and nana fairs, I've tried platform camping which I have mixed results with, I've tried just running around until I feel like I get to a position where I can punish jumps on reaction to stop laser pressure.
They all seem to have a lot of holes in them though, or really rely on correct guesses a lot rather than just being able to maintain good spacing and bait mistakes.
When I see someone like wobbles and how consistently they land attacks out of neutral positions vs spacies I have to wonder if he just guesses correctly more often than I do, or if it's just a nuance of spacing or reaction time I am not familiar with.
They all seem to have a lot of holes in them though, or really rely on correct guesses a lot rather than just being able to maintain good spacing and bait mistakes.
When I see someone like wobbles and how consistently they land attacks out of neutral positions vs spacies I have to wonder if he just guesses correctly more often than I do, or if it's just a nuance of spacing or reaction time I am not familiar with.