GDC 2008: Meeting Masahiro Sakurai

Status
Not open for further replies.

Oracle

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,471
Location
Dallas, TX
At first, I was gonna say that I would trip him if I met him.

Now I just want to talk with him about smash 4 and the gameplay.

Also buzz just summed up what I was about to edit in.
Youko directed people here as a response to whether or not Sakurai was good at the game, not so we could have a fresh round of Sakurai-hate.

The game is what he wanted. You can't say that the game isn't balanced because it's impossible for the game to not be balanced when the outcome of a match is completely random. Set tripping to 90%, crank up the stage hazards, set items to high, drop Bob-ombs from the sky. There. Perfectly balanced game. When everyone has an equal chance of winning and losing, it's balanced.

And yet we still managed to make a competitive game out of it. So everyone gets what they want. Welcome to the new generation of fighters.

What? That doesn't make sense. Its not balanced if it's up to chance.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
The reason that this thread got revive is because people think Sakurai suck in a game he created. :p

That's the dummest stuff I've ever heard, lol.

 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,775
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
I really want his logic as to why he gave Snake a huge hitbox on his u-tilt and f-tilt. It really makes no sense and he's a good character anyways.

Edit: Nintendo doesn't really listen to the competitive smash community at all. At Evo 2006 (or 05 not really sure) the organizers of the tournament asked if it was ok to run a smash tournament. They told them to have a mario kart ds tournament instead. Also notice that Nintendo, to this day, hasn't really organized any REAL tournaments despite the fact that they could make tons of money (free advertising + people paying money to enter) from them. Smash is already the largest fighting game community (I think) so it's not like we need their help so it would've been nice. Also notice that Sirlin, a STREET FIGHTER PRO, and not somebody like M2K made the brawl tutorials released in Europe.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
I really want his logic as to why he gave Snake a huge hitbox on his u-tilt and f-tilt. It really makes no sense and he's a good character anyways.
People had a month when the game was relased in Japan to tell him that, I wonder why people didn't take advantage of that sooner? Oh well, it's going to be beacuse it's, "too soon" or somthing like that.. ;p
 

TK Wolf

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Bellevue, WA
People had a month when the game was relased in Japan to tell him that, I wonder why people didn't take advantage of that sooner? Oh well, it's going to be beacuse it's, "too soon" or somthing like that.. ;p
You mean "too late"? 1 month is not enough time to make a change in a game that needs to be compiled, thoroughly tested, and printed. Of course, that would be a different story if they considered using patches.
 

WolfCypher

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
1,303
NNID
WolfCypher
Switch FC
4999 6039 1484
Topic of the year right here!

God bless Sakurai! God the things I would ask him.
 

Mazaloth

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
759
Sakurai takes three.
I honestly don't think anyone else outside the other three decent smashers there even noticed or realized that during the live demo part, Sakurai was playing as Sonic, Snake, and Pit on Battlefield ALL BY HIMSELF. Some was slow, showing off one character at a time, but I was watching him before the speech doing much faster, crazier stuff with all three. He was playing the three GCN controllers (two silver, one black?) like a keyboard all lined up in a curve in front of him, it was wild.
Heh, Vids or it didn't happen.
 

WolfCypher

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
1,303
NNID
WolfCypher
Switch FC
4999 6039 1484
I still think Sakurai mains King Dedede.
 

Bluebottel

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
61
Location
Sweden
4. They must contribute to the game balance.

Everyone has to fit together. Every new character must counter some characters and be countered by others, and they must fit in one giant contiguous mesh.
Long story short; he failed. How the heck can he playtest as much as he said he did and still fail so horribly?
 

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
Super Moderator
Premium
GRimer
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
37,161
Location
Beastector HQ
NNID
teran17
3DS FC
3540-0079-4988
Yeah it's really odd how he knows the nature of every single move in the game according to this article, so he must have taken into account fully MK's lagless attacks and DDDs CGs. Weird, they're both Sakurai created characters, and they've both got some of the best traits in the game? Curious no?
 

hotgarbage

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Messages
1,028
Location
PA
I see someone threadcromanced this.

I'll say this: Sure, it's impressive he could play with 3 different controllers at the same time. Sure it's impressive he could control them pretty well and, apparently, do neat stuff.

But that doesn't change anything about what the game that he churned out. He's an impressive player, in that he can control 3 characters as the same time, but if he set out to balance the game foremost, then he did a terrible job.

I've often wondered why the game was so horribly balance and beta tested. Now I know why. 1 man. 1 man did it all. Of course it's gonna get shot to hell, then. The makers of the most Competitive fighting games in the world have entire teams balancing the game and then they give it to a bunch of Competitive fighting game players to beta test and then they re-balance it several times!

A single person, no matter how good, will miss a few or many things since they're just one person. The more people involved, the better you'll be able to spot mistakes and flaws.

He put down tons of hard work, props for that. He can control 3 characters at the same time, props for that. He still can't balance a fighting game for the life of him, neither Competitively or Casually (even the Casual players I know complain about the game's balance).

My views of his ability to balance a fighting game have not changed in the slightest from this.
This is an incredible post
 

egan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
22
what you fail to understand is that he didnt fully use the controlers to fight...he was using them so that he could show and demonstrate specific actions

so all he really did was practice hand motions for a 3 controler setup and thusly can test basic play by himself ...its not that complicated if your not doing like AT's with all 3 controlers
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
This is a really old thread... but be reasonable by what is meant by "Masahiro Sakurai personally decides and programs every piece of frame data in the game." I'm not convinced that he actually came up with all those various numbers; it would seem more like he personally inspected everything and approved it... which is very reasonable. If I were in his shoes, I'd be personally deciding every piece of frame data too in the sense that I'd never let anything in the game without my explicit approval.

Anyway, the complaints about brawl's balance are seriously ridiculous. I don't care how big your team is or how much time you take; things, even obvious things, are going to slip through the cracks. It's really mind boggling that so many people are so indignant over King Dedede's chaingrab; did anyone have this sort of response to Sheik's chaingrab in melee? Where are the topics saying "melee sucks, Sheik's down throw is obviously going to chain against a lot of characters, how did they miss this?" We don't ask because it's not really reasonable; things get missed, other things are the product of late in development changes with unexpected consequences.

For that matter, a lot of the questions you guys like to pose about brawl could be asked about melee. For instance, in melee, how could any competent game designer possibly look at Jigglypuff and Kirby, the two floatiest of characters, side by side and possibly conclude they were equal? What do you figure they intended Mewtwo to be able to do in combat at all? When they were designing the shields, did they even bother to look at what they gave to DK and Mr. Game & Watch? They didn't even test all the interactions; look at how buggy Mr. Game & Watch really is. They didn't test what happens if you max out the power of Oil Panic, and they didn't test how Bowser's down throw interacts with him (and Jigglypuff). Mr. Game & Watch can't even L-cancel all of his aerials! They obviously INTENTIONALLY made Pichu garbage; where is the outrage? There are all sorts of random things we could point out about melee. Did they not notice that Roy's up special was an instant kill move on the super light characters on Green Greens? Speaking of Roy, what were they thinking? He's total garbage, and no rational person could look at him next to Marth and think he is worth anything. Look at the Ice Climbers; did they not consider the painfully obvious question of what happens if Nana keeps hitting someone Popo has grabbed to extend the grab? Look at some of the stalls the exist in the game; did they not consider what Peach could do with her Peach Bomber on walls or what Jigglypuff could do with rising Pound? Some of the balance choices throughout are just baffling; what could have possibly inspired them to give Marth more grab range than Yoshi? Did they really think Ness's yoyos were functional attacks? If Zelda is supposed to be the half of Zelda/Sheik that kills, why does Sheik have that crazy forward aerial? The fact that Peach's down smash got past any tester is just mind boggling.

I'm sure someone is really angry after reading that, but you'd miss the point. It's perfectly reasonable all of those things are in melee. Do you want to know the real reason they're there? Melee was made with a limited timetable with closed development probably with a group of testers who weren't all that good at the game and certainly weren't even focusing on the mode we consider the competitive standard. The final product wasn't looked at for the whole development time; radically different things were good/bad in development, and the things that turned out to actually be the major hurdles to balance were probably not even on the radar. Balance wasn't even the only concern; when they made new characters like Sheik, a lot of their goal was to make them fun as well as functional. Sheik is very fun for a lot of players regardless of the horrible things she does to the game's balance. History even shows that fighting games that have this kind of development inevitably always have lots of broken stuff and various things that leave most players scratching their heads; it's just how it is. You should more be thankful that the game wasn't plagued by systematic flaws like smash 64 was with its shieldstun and blockstun and that it didn't have any bugs that ruined the game at a high level.

So, that's how it is with the game we pretty uncontroversially like (melee). Why do people refuse to see that brawl is the same way? There's stupid stuff in it, and some of the design decisions are simply baffling. And do you know what it means? It means nothing. Sakurai is still competent, and he wasn't biased. The game is honestly a legitimately good game, and there is honestly a lot to enjoy. In fact, isn't it a good sign that your favorite low tier who isn't going to be winning still has attributes that make you want to play as him? Would you prefer low tiers (who exist regardless, by the way) to be massive pieces of garbage that are only good for laughing at? Trying to tell someone their character sucks is already just about the most controversial thing you can do on smashboards; Sakurai definitely succeeded in the balance in the sense that in almost every if not every character he put enough positive qualities for there to be people who would want to take that character to a high level. Seriously, Sakurai didn't do a bad job, and what we got for a game should not have been surprising to us. I think a lot of people who are convinced that brawl sucks really were just expecting something impossible, something way better than we got with melee or smash 64 or that you'll ever get from a fighting game that is single major release no patch.
 

thesage

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
6,775
Location
Arlington, Va
3DS FC
4957-3743-1481
So, that's how it is with the game we pretty uncontroversially like (melee). Why do people refuse to see that brawl is the same way? There's stupid stuff in it, and some of the design decisions are simply baffling. And do you know what it means? It means nothing. Sakurai is still competent, and he wasn't biased. The game is honestly a legitimately good game, and there is honestly a lot to enjoy. In fact, isn't it a good sign that your favorite low tier who isn't going to be winning still has attributes that make you want to play as him? Would you prefer low tiers (who exist regardless, by the way) to be massive pieces of garbage that are only good for laughing at? Trying to tell someone their character sucks is already just about the most controversial thing you can do on smashboards; Sakurai definitely succeeded in the balance in the sense that in almost every if not every character he put enough positive qualities for there to be people who would want to take that character to a high level. Seriously, Sakurai didn't do a bad job, and what we got for a game should not have been surprising to us. I think a lot of people who are convinced that brawl sucks really were just expecting something impossible, something way better than we got with melee or smash 64 or that you'll ever get from a fighting game that is single major release no patch.
We had higher expectations for brawl than we did for melee. You'd think a game designer would be able to make a game that's less broken than it's predecessor. He managed to do that in the transition between 64 - melee. Why not brawl? I'm pretty sure what really happened is that they spent too much dev time on the SSE (which sucks compared to vs. mode anyways). They didn't do enough playtesting. There are some really obvious things in both games that are obviously broken within ten minutes of playing the game. Melee: Sheik's fair, f-tilt, d-throw, Marth's f-smash, falco's dair, Peach's d-smash (I think this got through since they didn't factor in cc'ing). Brawl: Snake's U-tilt, f-tilt, grenades, metaknight, Pokemon Trainer and Samus (the opposite of broken for them), grab release infinites, IC's infinite, bananas, etc. Plus tripping. Why in the world does tripping exist? It should at least be optional.
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
@Amazing Ampharos:

Many elements in Melee were new, so in their attempts of rebalancing, they kept most of the broken things in the 64 version in mind. It was their first attempt at using small knockback throws, which is why they missed chain grabs. It was also their first time to use ICs, so they didn't expect wobbling either (and honestly, we as a community sure took long enough to discover it). The rest are also situational things that were, for the most part, fixed in Brawl.

Then we look at Brawl. Sure, they messed with the physics a lot again. They didn't think about Metaknight's insane speed, range, and priority in all of his moves, and they didn't think about how badly it would hurt Pokemon Trainer to put that exhaust mechanic in. But they should have known about chain grabbing at this point, and yet Wario, Falco, ICs, and King Dedede all have them, and Pikachu has them against certain characters just like Sheik did. Some of it is understandable, but some of it is no different from Melee and yet they didn't catch them a second time.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
I see someone threadcromanced this.

I'll say this: Sure, it's impressive he could play with 3 different controllers at the same time. Sure it's impressive he could control them pretty well and, apparently, do neat stuff.

But that doesn't change anything about what the game that he churned out. He's an impressive player, in that he can control 3 characters as the same time, but if he set out to balance the game foremost, then he did a terrible job.

I've often wondered why the game was so horribly balance and beta tested. Now I know why. 1 man. 1 man did it all. Of course it's gonna get shot to hell, then. The makers of the most Competitive fighting games in the world have entire teams balancing the game and then they give it to a bunch of Competitive fighting game players to beta test and then they re-balance it several times!

A single person, no matter how good, will miss a few or many things since they're just one person. The more people involved, the better you'll be able to spot mistakes and flaws.

He put down tons of hard work, props for that. He can control 3 characters at the same time, props for that. He still can't balance a fighting game for the life of him, neither Competitively or Casually (even the Casual players I know complain about the game's balance).

My views of his ability to balance a fighting game have not changed in the slightest from this.
Because the game is amazingly balanced. Just not for 1v1.
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
1,229
Location
Montreal, Canada
What? That doesn't make sense. Its not balanced if it's up to chance.
I'm going to flip a coin. Arbitrarily, I'll say that if it lands on heads, I win. If it lands on tails, you win.

We both have an equal chance of winning. It's perfectly balanced. It's insanely non-competitive, but it's perfectly balanced.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
simply because of the infinite chain-grab DDD has: there is no way Sakurai can claim to have thoroughly examined every move. It is such a glaring flaw. How could he miss that? And if he did, why in the h*** would he leave it in the game.

It isn't cool looking, fair, or balanced, and there's no real counter for it other than stupidly ridiculous difference in skill levels. Its absolute garbage and plain as day. I think Brawl is an awesome game but... Sakurai isn't infallable. Even a little bit.
 

The MC Clusky

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
1,525
Location
San Antonio, TX
3DS FC
0404-6991-4531
I don't see how everyone got excited about this.

Sakurai is far from a genius if the game has one button infinites all over the place. Stuff that players had figured in less than a week after Brawl's debut couldn't be found in play testing?

Compare Metaknight to Captain Falcon. The gap between them is miles apart.

Absurd.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
I don't see how everyone got excited about this.

Sakurai is far from a genius if the game has one button infinites all over the place. Stuff that players had figured in less than a week after Brawl's debut couldn't be found in play testing?

Compare Metaknight to Captain Falcon. The gap between them is miles apart.

Absurd.
No, he balanced it. But competitive play typically isn't.
 

Gatlin

cactus in the valley that's about to crumble down.
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
6,371
Don't bump old threads.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom