Ganondorf's Storage Area (TOPIC 1 Specific Strategies SPEED BLITZERS)

[Gleam]

Alright apparently there was a problem with the "Best of Best" Topic that I don't think the mods understood at first. Mostly in which I blame myself for not being specific. The point of the previous topic/as well as this one, is to post stuff about Ganon that can be used or "added on" to the other topics. Because the other topics are all based on a certain subject.

For example I can't just go on to the stage discussion and talk about Yoshi's Island when discussion about Green Greens is going on. Now someone can find something.

As the title suggests now, which I hope this works out better...think of this as the "Official Ganondorf Storage Area." Someone posts, gets stored for later use.

So again...
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Someone/s can post something interesting about Ganondorf. This can be anything at all, as long as its helpful in some small way. It can be about his metagame, it can be about a new AT, it can be something about his Game Stage play. Anything at all.

With this, I'll be collecting said information. And if all goes well each day...or however long it takes the list of these will rise.

So anyone can start.
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CATEGORIES:

STAGE: Things involving stages with Ganondorf

METAGAME: Things involving said "metagame" with Ganon

CHARACTERS: Things involving said things for fighting aginst other Characters

ADVANCE TECHNIQUES: Your usual ATS

OTHERS: Anything not else added.
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METAGAME SUBJECT: Specific Strategies?

Everyone has their own unique way of fighting with Ganondorf. Many incorporate the same thing but each person has their differences. While all people have their unique strategies, there are basics to all of them.

These include, but are certainly not limited to:

Ground Based: Opponents who stick on the ground heavily

Jumpers/Fliers/WOPers: Opponents who stick in the air or jump around.

High Priority: Opponents with better priority

Defense: Opponents who remain on the defense

Offense: Exact opposite of Defense

Short Characters: Kirby and the likes

Tall characters: Snake and the likes

Edgeguarders: Characters who edgeguard you

Chaingrabs: What do you do against chaingrabbers (other than counterpick)

Projectiles: How do you deal with projectiles. Normal powershield, FOG, punch, teleporting fair to Fsmash?

Fat characters: Bowser and the likes (Can go along with tall people I guess)

OOS Options: Quake (Don't recommend it), Jab, Grab, Dark Dive. Jumping and retaliating with Aerials. OoS D-tilt.

Gerudo, iDA, jumpCanceled Usmash OoS, Stomp OoS (For shielding laggy attacks)

Baiting AC Uairs, Thunderstorming/Retreating Thunderstorming, Up Smash, Aerial Wizard Foot, Wizard Kick Cancel, Baiting with RCO-lag sometimes, ISA Frame attacks in general.

Fast Falling Be very careful of fast-falling attacks that may cause lag. Fast Falling allows for unpredictibility. Fast Fall RCO Lag. Fast Fall Fairs. Fast Fall Uair->Gerudo

Opponents DI It takes 3 total F-tilts (Assuming from edge of stage) to KO an Ike. No DI for him.

And so what is some of the ways you deal with these. Do you jump around crazy when an opponents in the air. Do you keep still when against short characters? Whatever it is...state it. Help the Ganon board out. F-tilt Ike's Down B to semi spike him.

In some cases opponents trying to attack Ganon can DI stage spike themselves.

Just read your opponents movements...and attack.

Short Characters Small characters can be very annoying. Many of them can crouch and avoice your attacks like F-tilt and Wiz-kicks. They suck.


Speed Blitzers
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Mods I hope that makes better sense here.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

But if those topics exist at all, isn't this one still redundant...? ^_^;

 

[Gleam]

No. I've already mentioned that in most of the other topics, the subject is very specific. This Storage area allows people to post here for later use. I know that for me, this makes things easier and cleaner instead of just waiting for whenver said "needed" subject arrives....and sometimes that could take months.

People find things all the time and post things. Instead of having 5 topics on random Ganoness...post it here...sort...discuss...deliver.

If anything it makes things more complete and organizable I think. Yes organizing.

 

[Noobicidal]

I understand the point of this thread. I'll contribute when need be.

 

[Gleam]

I've actually put in a topic for you all to discuss if need be.

 

[Z1GMA]

OoS options.

 

[Superspright]

We have no OoS options. :[ The quickest is a murder quake, followed by the pimp slap palm, and then grab. Everything else is grossly slow, and the first option has tremendous ending lag.

 

[:034:]

We have no OoS options. :[ The quickest is a murder quake, followed by the pimp slap palm, and then grab. Everything else is grossly slow, and the first option has tremendous ending lag.

you're wrong

Grab comes out at frame 7, faster than Jab's 8 and infinitely more useful, since it ends at frame 13 (look at Jab's 28 and MQ's... 40some?). Otherwise, you can jump out of shield and use nair, bair or uair for a quick retaliation.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

you're wrong

Grab comes out at frame 7, faster than Jab's 8 and infinitely more useful, since it ends at frame 13 (look at Jab's 28 and MQ's... 40some?). Otherwise, you can jump out of shield and use nair, bair or uair for a quick retaliation.

Ganon's grab range is crap, you literally gotta be on the opponent to land a grab. Jump already has enough lag to begin with, so I don't think jumping > aerials would be a OoS option.

 

[Gleam]

Question. We know that Dark Dive has shi*t for knockback and stuff and many times an opponent can get a free hit.

Is there a certain percentage/s that an opponent has to be at to hit Ganon after a Dark Dive, or is it always possible and just requires DI?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Question. We know that Dark Dive has shi*t for knockback and stuff and many times an opponent can get a free hit.

Is there a certain percentage/s that an opponent has to be at to hit Ganon after a Dark Dive, or is it always possible and just requires DI?

Well, first of all, Dark Dive's grab range is actually very good. But, we all already know the risks of it. The lag if it misses, the hitstun, and the crappy damage. Yes, there are certain percentages that you could dark dive and Ganon could avoid getting hit during the attack, but since dark dive has a huge amount of lag, don't be surprised to get punished even AFTER you launched them back, before you land. There's also it's 16 frames of start-up lag.

So overall, it'd be better to just run and grab than to dark dive. They have the same start-up lag, but run > grab has less risks and could do more damage.

 

[Gleam]

It would be better to just run and grab, true. Also not exactly OOS options. But doesn't it help at all to shield then let go of the shield and quickly do Ftilt, or Usmash or even Dsmash. It's go frame lag that the usual OOS doesn't have but does it count for anything?

 

[3xSwords]

It would be better to just run and grab, true. Also not exactly OOS options. But doesn't it help at all to shield then let go of the shield and quickly do Ftilt, or Usmash or even Dsmash. It's go frame lag that the usual OOS doesn't have but does it count for anything?

well you can Jump cancel an u-smash so you won't have the shield drop lag. But ftilt and dsmash don't seem to be as good as dtilt. Going back to Kalm's post about Ganon's **** grab range. I've had this happen to me too much. If Kirby does a fair and lands right in front of me, he naturally squats down a bit as landing lag from the fair and Ganon's grab misses because he's too tall. Is this something that can be abused by character's who have short crouches?

Btw possible OoS option is going for a footstool and then doing a down B if you get them in the special stun. Otherwise your best bet is probably dodging their follow up on your shield w/ spot dodge, roll or SH air dodge and punishing after that.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon (imo) is one of the better character in the game when it comes to punishing LAGGY attacks OoS..
Gerudo, iDA, jumpCanceled Usmash OoS, Stomp OoS, are all good OoS-options after taking a laggy attack on your shield.

However, Ganon's OoS-options after taking an almost lagless attack to his shield, is crap T-T
I use to rely on Jab or grab, mostly.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

No. I've already mentioned that in most of the other topics, the subject is very specific. This Storage area allows people to post here for later use. I know that for me, this makes things easier and cleaner instead of just waiting for whenver said "needed" subject arrives....and sometimes that could take months.

People find things all the time and post things. Instead of having 5 topics on random Ganoness...post it here...sort...discuss...deliver.

If anything it makes things more complete and organizable I think. Yes organizing.

I understand the point of this thread. I'll contribute when need be.

All right, sweet. Apologies and retractions.

 

[SpongeBathBill]

No. I've already mentioned that in most of the other topics, the subject is very specific. This Storage area allows people to post here for later use. I know that for me, this makes things easier and cleaner instead of just waiting for whenver said "needed" subject arrives....and sometimes that could take months.

People find things all the time and post things. Instead of having 5 topics on random Ganoness...post it here...sort...discuss...deliver.

If anything it makes things more complete and organizable I think. Yes organizing.

I understand the point of this thread. I'll contribute when need be.

All right, sweet. Apologies and retractions.

 

[Z1GMA]

After we've finished discussing OoS, my suggestions are:

* Baiting

* Fast falling

* Stale moves

* Opponent's DI

 

[Gleam]

Good idea Z1GMA, I'll certianly incorporate it in. I want to get a brief overview of the other topics though first.

We did OOS and we may come back to it.

Right now is there any input on what to do against an opponent who remains relatively "Stone Feet." Anything that should be made aware of? What to do and not to do specifically?

 

[@HomE]

I've been thinking.... unless the attack that hits our shield is REALLY laggy, wouldn't it always be best to just roll away, and reset the situation? rather then risk getting hit and then juggled/combo'd...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I've been thinking.... unless the attack that hits our shield is REALLY laggy, wouldn't it always be best to just roll away, and reset the situation? rather then risk getting hit and then juggled/combo'd...

Yes. Any good Ganon player would know that.

 

[Big O]

I am pretty sure his fastest option out of shield is shield grab, then quake, then Uair, then Nair, and then jab. Shield grab skips shield drop lag so it grabs on frame 7. Quake hits on frame 10, Uair on 13, Nair on 14, and jab on 15. Ganon's shield drop lag and jump lag are both 7 frames but since Ganon's aerials are quick they are the faster OoS attacks. Most people are too short for Uair though.

 

[ShinGaruda]

Quake has a use? I never thought I'd see the day.

 

[@HomE]

Quake has a use? I never thought I'd see the day.

That day has yet to come, the end lag makes quake completly useless...

 

[Z1GMA]

I've been thinking.... unless the attack that hits our shield is REALLY laggy, wouldn't it always be best to just roll away, and reset the situation? rather then risk getting hit and then juggled/combo'd...

It really depends on WHICH kind of near quick attacks you take on the shield.

If it's the kind of jabs that C.Falcon, Shiek, and Fox has, I like Shield-DI'ing away or DI'ing away and then Dtilt.

But if it's attacks like Fox's Utilt, Sheik's Ftilt, I rather roll away.

 

[Gleam]

Alright I'm just going to the next topic unless someone has some info to put in. Going to take Z1GMA's advice and now it's time to talk about "baiting."

check out the new hand drawn pic also...>_>

 

[Z1GMA]

I bait mostly with AC Uair, AC Dair and Usmash; but also with Aerial Wizkick (when I'm very high up in the the sky).

WKC can also be SICK as a bait! (especially when performed away from the opponent, towards a ledge).

One cool thing is to bait with your RCO-lag (When you face a player who's aware of it).

 

[@HomE]

I like running at my opponent and right before i enter their range i AC a D-air away from them and buffer a F-smash or U-smash, people will generally run in to punish slow old ganon and eat a F-smash. any AC aerial works really well to bait, AC aerial to jab or D-tilt. running and SHAD through them is something i do just to see how they react.

Like Z1gma said WKC is amazing, I really think that every Ganon should implement WKC into their arsenal, WKC -> Gerudo(towards stage) is one of the more nasty combos you can do.

Another thing im a huge fan of is dash dancing to Gerudo, even just running at someone and then stopping and running the other way for just a moment then turning again and doing an aerial gerudo can catch people offguard.

I'd say most of my baiting is AC a D-air away from my opponent and buffering attacks (f-tilt and jab come to mind) and punishing their approach

 

[:034:]

I play differently from usual Ganondorfs in that I don't bait pretty much ever. The only baiting I do is with usmash -> jab, which only works 1 or 2 times against a good player anyway. Dair, sometimes... Doesn't always work though.

 

[Z1GMA]

The only baiting I do is with usmash -> jab, which only works 1 or 2 times against a good player anyway.

That's why it's good to save the Usmash-bait until your opponent has 100%+ (I rather Ftilt than Jab, in that case)

 

[Squirrely]

Baiting is boring so I just charge in.

>.>

I get bored when people just dance around not attacking each other.
I know that it's smarter to lure your opponent in for the attack but I like action and dancing around not hitting each other isn't the action I crave. I want to hurt the other guy right now.

Ganon's probably the worst guy top have this kind of playstyle with but therein lies the challenge.

 

[Clai]

Question. We know that Dark Dive has shi*t for knockback and stuff and many times an opponent can get a free hit.

Is there a certain percentage/s that an opponent has to be at to hit Ganon after a Dark Dive, or is it always possible and just requires DI?

If you're talking about certain percentages when an opponent can hit you immediately out of Dark Dive, I believe it starts around 40-50%. I don't know if there's an end limit.

I personally use back-airs for spacing, and a mix-up of up-airs and down-airs for baiting purposes. Also, as others have said, Wizard Kick Canceling is an integral part of my game, whether to scout what the opponent does or to land a quick aerial or to simply grab the ledge and use Ganon's on-the-ledge options.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Baiting is boring so I just charge in.

Ganon's probably the worst guy top have this kind of playstyle with but therein lies the challenge.

=] me too
10=]

 

[Noobicidal]

Ganon's probably the worst guy top have this kind of playstyle with but therein lies the fun.

Fixed .

 

[Shadow Nataku]

I'm not much of a baiter, Ganon is sorta hard to bait with since about only thing he can do is run up and run away...

If I have to bait I like just throwing out random DTilt-USmash consecutively or just walking away from them. The only downside is I'm basically diminishing my best two KO moves all for nothing. The advantage of walking away however is that UAir, DAir and BAir can all be used to punish if they run in or Wizkick off the ledge if they get too near. Heck even Ganon's pivot grab is actually quite good and viable.

 

[PhantomX]

Ganon is actually pretty easy to bait with... he has three moves that are amazing for baiting opponents. Retreating AC dair (especially if you've purposefully botched a couple thunderstorms before), upsmash with it's IASA frames, and retreating AC upairs all are spectacular for baiting opponents into approaching us, which is what we want/need as Ganon players.

I play Wario so I'm pretty big on baiting... that's how I get my wins with Ganon anyway XD

 

[@HomE]

I'm not much of a baiter, Ganon is sorta hard to bait with since about only thing he can do is run up and run away...

If I have to bait I like just throwing out random DTilt-USmash consecutively or just walking away from them. The only downside is I'm basically diminishing my best two KO moves all for nothing. The advantage of walking away however is that UAir, DAir and BAir can all be used to punish if they run in or Wizkick off the ledge if they get too near. Heck even Ganon's pivot grab is actually quite good and viable.

Don't attacks only diminish if you hit something...?

 

[Z1GMA]

Don't attacks only diminish if you hit something...?

Yup. Not sure if that was what he ment, though.

 

[Shadow Nataku]

I meant if you actually connect with those random attacks, obviously they can shield or take a boot to the face and since you used it as a opening move....the diminished power on USmash is very noticeable and its a pretty nice KO move normally. But I love the IASA frames too much on USmash so I take that chance.

 

[Gleam]

Alright, more discussion on Baiting can be discussed at a later time unless something really important comes up...new topic

"Fast Falling"

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I personally think fastfalling when you don't need to is underrated, you know, just jumping up and down (that is a part of fastfalling, isn't it?) just to get into the flow of the game. That helps me out a lot, especially cause it increases Ganon's extremely slow metagame a bit up a notch.