Ganondorf: Patch 1.1.3 Changes

[Vermanubis]

It's not so much Risk relative to Reward as it is Risk relative to the Reward of the rest of his moveset. I feel like just plain dropping an absurdly powerful grab confirm into his moveset would mess up Ganon as a character and overly centralize him around that confirm. It would absolutely be absurdly powerful too, no matter what aerial he was hitting with. Probably would be killing around 60-120% depending on rage and position.

However, you could avoid that centralization by buffing the power of the rest of his moveset along with adding the confirm by just buffing all/most of the moves that don't kill around 80-130% (depending on stage position and rage naturally, 80 being optimal position with full rage and 130 being the opposite) to the point that they do. That would keep the reward of the confirm in line with his entire moveset as a whole, and would avoid centralizing him around grabbing.

I don't think that kind of consistent killing power would be out of line either. Ganondorf needs to use his comparatively limited tools very creatively to win neutral, and that occasional hit can give Ganon enough reward to justify that. At the moment though, too often you work hard for that hit and they just still don't die. Quite frankly that reaaaaally shouldn't happen. If Ganon wins neutral against your comparatively superfast character and you're at 120-130%, you should be dead barring really bad stage position.

I can't see it being problematic in FFAs either. Ganon in FFA is mostly going to be using his most powerful attacks anyway, so buffing less powerful ones won't affect it much.

Wow this wound up a lot longer than I thought it would turn out.

Well-said, but the bold part is something I think is entirely too accurate. As I've mentioned in the past, probably ad nauseum, Ganon's power counts for very little through the lense of consistency. The primary moves with which Ganon <will> secure an advantage in neutral seldom kill below average kill percents across the cast. UAir, NAir, DTilt, Wizkick, etc.

Using moves that can net stocks reasonably early are ones I'd be remiss to say are well-suited for high-level play outside of, of course, maverick, dead-ass, bullseye reads.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I really think his bthrow should just do a solid 10 damage instead of two hits of 5. IIRC, I read that his bthrow KBG was 130, which he should be allowed to utilize properly, given how garbage his grab range is. Seriously, how would doing that break him at all when it's already such a pain to get a grab? The only other thing he really needs is his sped up jab, and then he'd be perfect. He'd have his quick "get off me" OoS option, and a throw that's useful beyond positioning at higher %s.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Those double hits on all his throws save dthrow really come in handy during team games.

 

[TM 023]

I really liked his new Nair tho. It looks faster and easier to hit. Not to mention that the first hit has very little knockback, so you can fast fall to get only the first hit, and then follow-up with a grab, a tilt or a special move. I only tested for a few minutes, but I'll lab with him later.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well-said, but the bold part is something I think is entirely too accurate. As I've mentioned in the past, probably ad nauseum, Ganon's power counts for very little through the lense of consistency. The primary moves with which Ganon <will> secure an advantage in neutral seldom kill below average kill percents across the cast. UAir, NAir, DTilt, Wizkick, etc.

Using moves that can net stocks reasonably early are ones I'd be remiss to say are well-suited for high-level play outside of, of course, maverick, dead-***, bullseye reads.

I'm mostly an outsider to Ganon, I think what you said is true to an extent. I don't think it is that bad though.

Ganon buffs didn't tackle those issues, but overall I would say it helped him in a lot of areas he did need.

I still think Ganondorf overall is decent in relation to the cast like Charizard pre patch, this more or less makes him better than before.

I know it seems weird that Bowser got a Hoo-Ha, but he kind of needed something like that.

My honest thoughts on this though.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Well-said, but the bold part is something I think is entirely too accurate. As I've mentioned in the past, probably ad nauseum, Ganon's power counts for very little through the lense of consistency. The primary moves with which Ganon <will> secure an advantage in neutral seldom kill below average kill percents across the cast. UAir, NAir, DTilt, Wizkick, etc.

Using moves that can net stocks reasonably early are ones I'd be remiss to say are well-suited for high-level play outside of, of course, maverick, dead-***, bullseye reads.

Thankfully Bair is a huge exception to this. A frame 10 move that can kill at 80% and is safe on shield is a godsend. It does suffer from also being one of, if not our best spacing tool, so staling might tone this down a bit, but once I learned to really space Bair well it became much easier to end stocks early.

 

[Darkshadovv]

Those double hits on all his throws save dthrow really come in handy during team games.

I don't follow what you mean by that.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

I'm a bit lost on what exactly changed about the hitbox on dair? Does it have more vertical reach or what exactly changed (other than landing lag)?

 

[adom4]

I'm a bit lost on what exactly changed about the hitbox on dair? Does it have more vertical reach or what exactly changed (other than landing lag)?

Hitbox got lowered a so it's a bit easier to hit hit with.

 

[PRGN]

SH+Nair--> offstage--> DJ+Dair = Autocancel.
Which could be a deadly edgeguarding tool, and great for mixups on stages with platforms.


Some weird hitbox changes, B-air being one of those..
I can't even hit a walking marth cpu with a SH insta Bair

This patch is overall a nice step forward, but still plenty of things that need to be fixed.

 

[HeavyLobster]

SH+Nair--> offstage--> DJ+Dair = Autocancel.
Which could be a deadly edgeguarding tool, and great for mixups on stages with platforms.


Some weird hitbox changes, B-air being one of those..
I can't even hit a walking marth cpu with a SH insta Bair

This patch is overall a nice step forward, but still plenty of things that need to be fixed.

Pretty sure Bair's unchanged hitbox-wise. It feels the same to me and the data miners haven't found any evidence of changes.

 

[TM 023]

For now, I just want that full hop fair get autocancelled. It would be an amazing shield pressure.

 

[Orsone]

So, is the new nair really THAT crap? I truly miss the 22% damage until like the opponent was at 50% damage but after that you could only hit with one kick. Now it can net a full 19% even at high percentages if you space it well and the transition between the 2 hits is faster allowing to better hit smaller chars. The only thing that I don't understand is why the heel has the sourspot effect.
But, what I want to know is, how much frame advantage/disadvantage has the first hit of sourspot nair if correctly fastfalled? Does Granny get punished with fast moves or can he reliably react after that? I'm seeing that now lots of my opponents try to hit me with jabs but I can safely put my shield on and punish with a grab or something else.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

It's going to take some time to get used to, I think. I don't love it, but I am trying to remain optimistic that more uses will be revealed. I will say that being able to jump after a nair is boon for my playstyle, because I rely (maybe a little too) heavily on mixing up my aerial approaches. So having a safe option like nair to space with and then follow up with is huge.

That said, the move is nowhere near as good as it was for the things I used to use it for. Hopefully we can adapt.

 

[Vermanubis]

I couldn't be happier with the new NAir. That's the only other thing I missed from Brawl. The hitbox is bigger on the first hit, so it hits lower to the ground, it can be used to safely space your frontal zone in the air without committing, snagging someone with a NAir can earn you a nasty juggle, etc.

I'm guessing the thing people are most upset about is the fact that they can't snag people with the first hit upon landing. Imo, this was something whose utility wore out very quickly once people learned to not drop shield. I'll take the ability to cover airspace without committing to gimmicky landing options any day.

 

[adom4]

I couldn't be happier with the new NAir. That's the only other thing I missed from Brawl. The hitbox is bigger on the first hit, so it hits lower to the ground, it can be used to safely space your frontal zone in the air without committing, snagging someone with a NAir can earn you a nasty juggle, etc.

I'm guessing the thing people are most upset about is the fact that they can't snag people with the first hit upon landing. Imo, this was something whose utility wore out very quickly once people learned to not drop shield. I'll take the ability to cover airspace without committing to gimmicky landing options any day.

Yeah i'm starting to warm up to Nair too, FH Nair is super good now.
EDIT: Also Dair is ****ing amazing now, the hitbox shift made it way easier to hit.

 

[Theosmeo]

Yeah i'm starting to warm up to Nair too, FH Nair is super good now.
EDIT: Also Dair is ****ing amazing now, the hitbox shift made it way easier to hit.

That and the one frame off landing, now the lag feels perfect for a move of that power, size, and launch trajectory. Also makes risk = reward now, where it was a pretty RISK > reward before

Honestly I aesthetically really like all the landing lag on Ganons attacks, feels so MEATY.

 

[adom4]

That and the one frame off landing, now the lag feels perfect for a move of that power, size, and launch trajectory. Also makes risk = reward now, where it was a pretty RISK > reward before

Honestly I aesthetically really like all the landing lag on Ganons attacks, feels so MEATY.

actually it's 2 frames for Dair, the rest of his aerials got 1 frame off.

 

[Theosmeo]

actually it's 2 frames for Dair, the rest of his aerials got 1 frame off.

Really? I though it was Nair that got 2, well, this is even better then

 

[Gold_TSG]

Has anyone tried using Nair's first hit to mess with people by the ledge yet? I feel like it can catch people off guard because it doesn't launch, thus giving us another option for ledge guarding. By this, I mean people trying to fall to the ledge from above, not stage edge shenaniganons.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah i'm starting to warm up to Nair too, FH Nair is super good now.
EDIT: Also Dair is ****ing amazing now, the hitbox shift made it way easier to hit.

The DAir extension is probably the second best buff he's gotten yet. Most characters will get hit from a FH DAir now, which means we have an option to cover people rolling behind us (which is [or /was/] a massive problem), and spotdodges aside from grab and choke. Sheik, Falcon, ROB, Bowser, D3, Ike, Mewtwo; most human characters and larger get hit by it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

After messing around a bit, the new nair coupled with the one frame shaved off landing lag is actually better than previously. You should see a lot more nair spamming in Ganon's metagame now.

Also, I'm going to a monthly tomorrow, so that'll be a good test to see how Ganon fairs now (he was one of the few characters who got noticable buffs, so he should definitely do better against those chars who didn't get any buffs at all).

 

[adom4]

After messing around a bit, the new nair coupled with the one frame shaved off landing lag is actually better than previously. You should see a lot more nair spamming in Ganon's metagame now.

Also, I'm going to a monthly tomorrow, so that'll be a good test to see how Ganon fairs now (he was one of the few characters who got noticable buffs, so he should definitely do better against those chars who didn't get any buffs at all).

**** Fair stomp everyone through the ground.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'll do my best.

 

[MGK]

I'm guessing the thing people are most upset about is the fact that they can't snag people with the first hit upon landing. Imo, this was something whose utility wore out very quickly once people learned to not drop shield. I'll take the ability to cover airspace without committing to gimmicky landing options any day.

This is why I'm not too much of a fan with the new Nair. I agree with you to a extent but the first hit of Nair was boss before because it was a mix for ganondorf to tomahawk or to pop people up and this always left the opponent on there toes. Now when the opponent drops their shield, the first hit of Nair puts them no where and some character (Fast fallers) can punish with an uSmash or at least a jab. Also, the old first hit of Nair put your opponent into a very awkward situation where at 80 % +, with one read and aerial, your opponent is dead meat.

I am learning to do late Uairs instead of first hit of Nair but it was so fun getting a grab or popping the opponent up for a aerial read. At least the Early hit box of Uair sends opponents at a fTilt angle.

Also, using a FH Nair, it never really links at all unless you FF the second hit. This has got me punished so many times, I don't see the use of ever using FH nair unless your opponent is on a platform or you want to bait them in with the new double jump out of FH.

All in all, the new Nair to me got nerfed and buffed, just need to adjust to it.

 

[jordimarcel]

Does the first hit of Nair jablock? Or do you have to sourspot it? I tried on FG but wasn't able to land it.

 

[TM 023]

Does the first hit of Nair jablock? Or do you have to sourspot it? I tried on FG but wasn't able to land it.

I was in training mode and I didn't get the jab lock on the first kick of nair, but the second one. I just did this once, so you feel free to try.

 

[| Kailex |]

Was it the sweetspot of the second hit? Or the sourspot?

 

[S_B]

I don't main Ganon but I enjoy playing him on the side and I'm scratching my head about why he hasn't gotten a straight up kill THROW yet.

Sakurai even said that magic users/psychic folks would be more likely to have killing throws. Where's Ganon's kill throw?

Considering he also has tiny little "Dorfasauras Rex" arms when he goes to grab, it DEFINITELY warrants giving him a killing throw...

Bowser's hoo-haa was necessary. Any opponent playing safe would hardly ever get hit by any of Bowser's killing moves, often living well into the 150% range before Bowser was able to get a lucky Bthrow at the ledge or a Dtilt. With this change, he actually gets enough reward from getting in on people that he might not be crap.

But yeah, for his grab range and speed, Gdorf should have an Uthrow that KOs Mario at 50%... (I'm only sort of exaggerating, here...)

 

[| Kailex |]

Id rather have a great down throw that leads to combos or kill setups (aka melee down throw)

 

[TM 023]

Was it the sweetspot of the second hit? Or the sourspot?

I think the sourspot of the second hit jab locks. I'm not sure.

 

[Big O]

I actually really like the new Nair. It is better in every way except landing with the first hit (which is pretty useless now), but I'd trade minor air to ground utility for much more reliable linking + frame speed buffs. The second hit is also pretty strong and safer on block than the old Nair. I also like how they can't shield grab in between hits for Nair. Once you switch to landing with both hits of Nair instead of just the first one, I think the changes will grow on you guys like they have with me.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm starting to come around to it as well, but landing with the first hit wasn't the reason the old nair was so good as far as I was concerned. It was catching that groin hitbox on the first hit and getting actually reliable kills at reasonable percents, especially on platform stages where it was safe to throw out.

But being able to double-jump after a nair is a pretty solid trade-off. Although chances are high that I'm going to get caught without a double-jump more often now, so maybe it's another curse in disguise.

 

[Haze~]

Correct me if i'm wrong but you couldn't doublejump from a fh nair before but you can now.

 

[Z1GMA]

Like or dislike the new Nair, but out of all the variations of Nair we've had, this one is the hardest to combo off of at low %s, which is sad.

 

[Darkshadovv]

Does anyone know the frame data changes for Nair?

 

[Z1GMA]

I hope the next patch isn't gonna be focused on Nair again.
We've been un-decloned enough, now.

Focus on Jab, grab and and throws next time, Sakurai.

 

[Swoops]

I wouldn't mind if they continued to change NAir. I'm starting to get the hang of this new one, as if you can find that sweet spot where you trap the opponent with both hits it seems pretty useful.

My problem is that it makes it quite a bit like a more powerful Falcon N-Air, except we don't really have the speed or angle that he does . Just feels very hard to get in that position, and even if I work hard to get into that position and finally get there, there's other stuff I could be doing. I would really love it if they dropped the landing lag to like 14 or something, especially if my quickest option is dodge at 4 frames, or grab at 7 frames. Definitely going to keep working with it though, I have some ideas.

On a side note, looking over Kurogane's frame data Ganon's SH is 30 total frames and D-Air autocancels after frame 31. We're literally one frame away from AC stomp

 

[Blobface]

I hope the next patch isn't gonna be focused on Nair again.
We've been un-decloned enough, now.

Focus on Jab, grab and and throws next time, Sakurai.

Spoilers: There's never going to be an end to patches, and the only changes to any character after the February patch will be Ganon N-air changes.

 

[Z1GMA]

Spoilers: There's never going to be an end to patches, and the only changes to any character after the February patch will be Ganon N-air changes.

Yeah, there'll soon be a weekly TV Show about his Nair.