Ganondorf: Patch 1.1.3 Changes

[MegaBlaster1234]

I think NAir's amazing now.

Why?

We got one of the few things we lost from Brawl: we can double NAIR.

NAir ends before you hit the ground, so you can DJ NAir. This is unbelievable for our aerial approachs <and> combo potential.

It can now also jab lock.

 

[MGK]

I think Ganondorf grounded wizard kick doesnt stop as much on shields and I think has more shield damage too? Feels different.

It feels different, does anyone know?

 

[SaltyKracka]

I remain unimpressed.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm pretty underwhelmed myself, save for FH NAir being <much> safer now.

I have to admit that with characters like Ike and Bowser getting the outrageous buffs they did, it's a bit annoying. Bowser now has a death throw, so why they feel (I'm guessing, for lack of other ostensible reasons) Ganon would be overpowered in the presence of relevant buffs is somewhat beyond me,

 

[Deleted member]

What is interesting is, that because of NAir's changes, he has options if ONLY the sourspot of NAir is landed (Ganondorf's leg on NAir on hit 1 is the sourspot, not the tip of his foot). He can Flame Choke, grab, DTIlt, FTilt... The list goes on. If only he had less landing lag on NAir, so these could make a big difference. Hey, it's certainly a good change, is it not?

 

[Vermanubis]

What is interesting is, that because of NAir's changes, he has options if ONLY the sourspot of NAir is landed (Ganondorf's leg on NAir on hit 1 is the sourspot, not the tip of his foot). He can Flame Choke, grab, DTIlt, FTilt... The list goes on. If only he had less landing lag on NAir, so these could make a big difference. Hey, it's certainly a good change, is it not?

Aye, it confirms into a number of things if it launches them just a bit. Just need to know more about the hitboxes and percentages at which to make this more viable.

 

[SaltyKracka]

If there are any more balance patches, betcha I know what Ganondorf gets.

Psst: it's Nair changes

 

[MGK]

Did Ganondorf's dSmash always do 21%? I remember it doing 19%.

 

[Deleted member]

Now, with some examination, I have some info to dump about the first hit of NAir. I am not an expert dataminer or anything, and I don't even main Ganondorf; I simply discovered this tidbit after fidding with his new NAir. Here is the guideline on hitboxes:

At the VERY end of his first hit of NAir, there is a hitbox that will slide the opponent forward and eventually launch at higher percents. The second hitbox will bob them a tiny bit forward, regardless of percent; this hitbox is Ganondorf's entire leg. Both of them deal 7%. There's also random 5% hitboxes that are irrelevant, as they do the same thing as the hitboxes mentioned above.

Followups after a fastfall hit 1 NAir:

Grab: if you hit the second hitbox, you can Grab > DThrow > NAir, dealing 33% (or 31% if you landed the 5% hitbox) at low percents.

Flame Choke: If you hit the second hitbox, you can Flame Choke > Tech-Chase.

FTilt: If you hit the second hitbox, You can FTilt which closes stocks at the edge of the stage at high percents.

DTilt: If you hit the second hitbox, DTilt will also end stocks at higher percents; useful if you aren't at the edge of the stage.

Wizard's Foot: If you hit the first hitbox at low percents OR hit the edge of the second hitbox at any percent, Wizard's Foot will end stocks at higher percents

Jab: Hitting the second hitbox allows for a Jab, a 14% string and a nice get-off-me attack.

FSmash/USmash/DSmash: Hitting the second hitbox and hitting off a read Smash attack will end stocks and mid-high percents.

Dark Dive: Hitting the second hitbox allows for a followup into USpecial, which will end stocks at the edge of the stage at higher percents.

Did Ganondorf's dSmash always do 21%? I remember it doing 19%.

It always could do 21%, because there are two hitboxes that do 15% and 13% on the second hit, and do 21% or 19% in total, respectively.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Freshness Bonus from using it right away? Or you mean in training?

 

[Blobface]

Dark Dive buff combined with faster N-air may give Ganon an actual semblance of option coverage offstage.

I'm not going to get too optimistic but considering how much trouble Ganon has historically had with characters he can't really edgeguard it merits looking in to.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The Dark Dive buff is actually quite a big deal given Ganon often lacks good out of shield options. Aside from grab, Dark Dive is one of Ganon's fastest OOS options, and being safer on hit and more rewarding is great.

Furthermore it's a relatively high percent kill option near the edge, which is great against people who tech choke and shield by the edge.

New N-air sucks outside of the fact you can now do actions out of FH N-air before landing, including aerial Flame Choke.

D-smash now PROPERLY sends people away from you on block, making it not awful on shield (it also no longer reverses the direction in which your opponent faces).

2 frames less landing lag on D-air probably means a lot in terms of safety on hit. Furthermore you can now Fullhop AC D-air humanoid characters much more consistently due to the increased range.

I really don't feel much difference from 1 frame lag reduction on the other aerials, right now.

I hate what they did with N-air, but I think the patch overall is a net benefit for Ganon.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

N-air: Landing lag reduced, from 18 -> 17.
F-air: Landing lag reduced, from 23 -> 22.
B-air: Landing lag reduced, from 20 -> 19.
D-air: Landing lag reduced, from 28 -> 26
U-air: Landing lag reduced, from 20 -> 19.

Actually not all that bad a patch, in the end.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Net benefit, sure.

I'm just waiting for some actual buffs to him like they threw to Bowser and Lucas.

 

[verbatim]

N-air: Landing lag reduced, from 18 -> 17.
F-air: Landing lag reduced, from 23 -> 22.
B-air: Landing lag reduced, from 20 -> 19.
D-air: Landing lag reduced, from 28 -> 26
U-air: Landing lag reduced, from 20 -> 19.

Actually not all that bad a patch, in the end.

Where'd you get this from, I don't see it in the thread?



Also

DARK DIVE CAN KILL AT AROUND 140% NOW (WITHOUT RAGE)!

Where are you grabbing them, on the ground, in the air, offstage?

 

[Theosmeo]

So what they did with Dsmash causes the second hit to provide proper shield pushback. Previously, because of the 130 angle the second hit would actually pull shielding enemies in causing characters to get easier punishes if it hit their shield. This change makes blockers slide away from the kick, so it´s much safer on shield now.

 

[King9999]

Not sure if anyone noticed, but nair damage got reduced a bit in exchange for hitting even more consistently. Used to do 22% max, now it does 19% max.

What change was made to Flame Choke?

 

[MrTacoKingSSBM]

With the new patch, I dont feel any change with down smash

 

[Darkshadovv]

With the new patch, I dont feel any change with down smash

Down smash pushes opponents away if it hits on shield. Before it used to push them toward us and get us killed. It also doesn't flip opponents anymore and makes them face us as they fly away.

 

[Top Boss]

I don't like this new nair.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I don't like this new nair.

Is someone gonna make a list of all the changes or what?

WtF has changed?
Were the **** is the list

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Is someone gonna make a list of all the changes or what?

WtF has changed?
Were the **** is the list

The list is in the OP.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

The new nair is underwhelming, but ill take it.

 

[Swoops]

Got to agree with A2ZOMG on this one. Not really a fan of the new NAir.

I'll hold out final judgement until I get more time with it. It would be a different story if the move was a straight upgrade, but as far as I know the hitboxes didn't get bigger or anything. I feel like the previous NAir-1 was equally good at setting up (possibly better,) and the move was consistently linking at lower percents. In fact, at lower percents new NAir won't link if you hit with Nair-1 while full hopping. So you can't even get DThrow > FH NAir > DJ Stuff and take advantage of the new cancel window.

I'm sure we'll find useful things with this new NAir, but it feels more like a sidegrade and in some aspects (damage, first hit safety, setups) a downgrade.

EDIT: 2 frames off DAir landing lag is absolutely sexy.

 

[adom4]

i will say that Nair got even better for edgeguards, the 2nd hit is pretty beastly.
Also it connects pretty reliably out of a short hop against taller characters, even when they're standing.

 

[Top Boss]

short hop nair into dash attack is a true combo now and does 31%(i think).

 

[| Kailex |]

Nair out of shield tho

 

[PIXLEsauce]

This might not be accurate, but it feels like side B has a larger range to grab, since before you couldn't grab above the torso (on ganon) and still connect. Again, this might just be anecdotal evidence since I haven't tested it extensively but this is true then side B could be a little bit better.

 

[adom4]

This might not be accurate, but it feels like side B has a larger range to grab, since before you couldn't grab above the torso (on ganon) and still connect. Again, this might just be anecdotal evidence since I haven't tested it extensively but this is true then side B could be a little bit better.

Something DID change about choke but we don't know what it was, it's been bothering me since the patch data came out.

 

[Z1GMA]

Nair got both buffed and nerfed imo. It's nice that we can DJ after it now cuz of the faster speed, and Dthrow > Nair seems easier to execute. (placebo?)
But it's no longer that dark curtain of doom, like it was prepatch (Super Lingering 2'nd kick for gimping)
And the damage reduction fom 22 > 19 is also kinda sad.

Time will tell.

 

[PIXLEsauce]

Something DID change about choke but we don't know what it was, it's been bothering me since the patch data came out.

I was wrong- turns out when it's activated in the air right next to a character it doesn't connect regardless. I had been doing this before but when the patch came out i must've been doing choke from a distance and thinking that it was buffed.

 

[Blobface]

I would call this Nair amazing if for the first hit had some nice vertical BKB on grounded opponents, but alas. On the plus side, it definitely has the best aerial linking of any iteration of Nair thus far.

This patch wasn't as good as it could've been, but I am happy they're moving in the right direction with Ganon's buffs again. All the buffs since the first landing lag decreases, while helpful, haven't really been centered around what Ganon really needs. These buffs actually seem targeted at Ganon's problems, like having trouble killing out of grabs, holes in his edgeguarding game, and bad OoS.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

With the extra frames shaved off our aerials, I wonder what it means for safety on shield. Probably not much, but fair was already pretty solid.

 

[Swoops]

With the extra frames shaved off our aerials, I wonder what it means for safety on shield. Probably not much, but fair was already pretty solid.

It means 1 extra frame of safety for each move.

But seriously, I think means quite a bit for DAir, which is now -13 at best. With it's crazy pushback, I can see cross up DAir being relatively hard to punish, and helping his tomahawk game.

 

[Z1GMA]

Is it only me or does the first hit of nair come out just slightly faster?

 

[Opana]

I hate this nair why didn't they just give him a hoo hah in uthrow omg.

Bowser's hands are magnets and he has the best one atm, that should've been us tbh. Our grab is like Ganon reluctantly going in to pinch you lmao, we could use more reward for landing it imo.

 

[Flor@]

I hate this nair why didn't they just give him a hoo hah in uthrow omg.

Bowser's hands are magnets and he has the best one atm, that should've been us tbh. Our grab is like Ganon reluctantly going in to pinch you lmao, we could use more reward for landing it imo.

Ah yes, that'd actually be a really nice buff. Make f-throw deal like 20 damage, and make back-throw a kill throw. Because honestly, even with Ganon's great down-tilt and forward-tilts, he's... just too damn big and slow! It makes it hard to do real damage with him. Not to make excuses as a player, but yeah. I tried to main ganon for a few months. Really hard. You can do some really funny stuff with him (down-air spikes, down-air chains, flame choke to no-tech-read to aerial wizard's foot) but honestly even then, the actual killpower against higher-level players is just... not there. He struggles (or I struggle, lel) hard with Zero Suit Samus players who out-space him. And it can really feel like even more of an uphill battle than it usually is with Ganondorf.

That said, yeah, I think buffing Ganon's grabs could REALLY help.

 

[Blobface]

Gonna be honest here, what they did with Bowser and DK was really dumb.

I'd much rather have U-throw be a kill throw or have a more horizontal angle on F-throw/B-throw. IMO there's way too much grabbing in the meta already.

 

[Vermanubis]

I hate this nair why didn't they just give him a hoo hah in uthrow omg.

Bowser's hands are magnets and he has the best one atm, that should've been us tbh. Our grab is like Ganon reluctantly going in to pinch you lmao, we could use more reward for landing it imo.

LOL

Gonna be honest here, what they did with Bowser and DK was really dumb.

I'd much rather have U-throw be a kill throw or have a more horizontal angle on F-throw/B-throw. IMO there's way too much grabbing in the meta already.

Smash 4's so close to being a perfect game. The massive strength of shields and relative safety of everything make grabs way too strong. I think every player who's ever given me trouble figured out that grabbing Ganon after everything he does is free. At the very least, if we're to struggle for the grabs we do get, we should be massively rewarded. I think Ganon's the only heavy currently without a hoo-hah (except at risibly low %)

 

[Blobface]

Smash 4's so close to being a perfect game. The massive strength of shields and relative safety of everything make grabs way too strong. I think every player who's ever given me trouble figured out that grabbing Ganon after everything he does is free. At the very least, if we're to struggle for the grabs we do get, we should be massively rewarded. I think Ganon's the only heavy currently without a hoo-hah (except at risibly low %)

It's not so much Risk relative to Reward as it is Risk relative to the Reward of the rest of his moveset. I feel like just plain dropping an absurdly powerful grab confirm into his moveset would mess up Ganon as a character and overly centralize him around that confirm. It would absolutely be absurdly powerful too, no matter what aerial he was hitting with. Probably would be killing around 60-120% depending on rage and position.

However, you could avoid that centralization by buffing the power of the rest of his moveset along with adding the confirm by just buffing all/most of the moves that don't kill around 80-130% (depending on stage position and rage naturally, 80 being optimal position with full rage and 130 being the opposite) to the point that they do. That would keep the reward of the confirm in line with his entire moveset as a whole, and would avoid centralizing him around grabbing.

I don't think that kind of consistent killing power would be out of line either. Ganondorf needs to use his comparatively limited tools very creatively to win neutral, and that occasional hit can give Ganon enough reward to justify that. At the moment though, too often you work hard for that hit and they just still don't die. Quite frankly that reaaaaally shouldn't happen. If Ganon wins neutral against your comparatively superfast character and you're at 120-130%, you should be dead barring really bad stage position.

I can't see it being problematic in FFAs either. Ganon in FFA is mostly going to be using his most powerful attacks anyway, so buffing less powerful ones won't affect it much.

Wow this wound up a lot longer than I thought it would turn out.