Legend of Zelda Ganon- Overused?

[CRASHiC]

No, this isn't about pokemon tiers, sorry Spire. This is about an article that I read that really doesn't sit right with me. It was on the things to cut from the Zelda forumla.

Ganondorf is becoming hard to take seriously. He has been defeated by various small children at least six times now, and yet he never seems to learn a single thing from the experience and continues to underestimate them. He just lets these children wander free until they arrive at his doorstep with a giant magical sword forged to kill evil and thousands of monsters worth of battle experience, then he blasts off at the end and the whole cycle repeats.

It was kind of cool the first time when we found out that Ganon was the final boss of aLttP, but in TP it seemed very forced – Zant could have flourished as a villain in his own right if he had been given the chance, and Ganondorf seemed to just be a gimmick – an excuse for Zant to have power rather than a character in his own right.

He can be a good villain when used sparingly, but if you stick him into everything, he might just end up suffering from Team Rocket Syndrome – expected, but not respected.

Now, keep in mind, I have only played the main series, the console releases. HOWEVER. I really, really don't agree with this at all. In fact, in my mind, Ganon is becoming done in a much better light than in previous games. In Orcirana of Time and Link to the Past. It was Ganon. Okay. And that was it. It was a flat, rather bland villain who simply wanted to takeover all of Hyrul. I'm not too impressed looking back, though his tactics in both are dubious, and his final form in OoT was a great way to finish the game.

Now, when we look at that depiction of Ganon, we see a very upfront villain. Nothing all too special about him. And along comes Wind Waker Ganon. At the beginning, he's a rather mysterious force, working behind the shadows to attempt to retrieve his power. However, where Ganon really comes into light is in the end, giving his intent, giving his back story, giving his conquest purpose. Ganon was no longer a sociopath, but a human, bitter from his youths misfortunes, disillusioned by the way people adapted to the water world. This was a Ganon I could truly appreciate, a Ganon I could truly hate, loath, and somehow feel remorse for, knowing that he was more than a 5 year old.

Now, its been probably about a year since I last beat Twlight Princess, but I have to say that I do remember enjoying the Zant-Ganon duo. It added to the image of him as a shadow worker. Now, I think they could have made Zant more obvious, because for sometime I DID think that Zant was just Ganon, but fighting Ganon at the end was not the reason for Zant's lack of clarity when I first played the game, that was more from a lack of proper design, as his robe looked too much like something Ganon might wear.

Still though, is this something you agree with? Is Ganon overplayed?

 

[Jam Stunna]

I totally agree with that article that you quoted. One of the great things about Ganon was that he was used so sparingly. Until TP, in the 20+ years of Zelda, he was restricted to one appearance per home console, and that kept him as a relevant villain. Bowser is just a joke now (although the entire Mario franchise has gone in a more tongue-in-cheek direction which I think suits it really well), as he gets his butt kicked at least three times a year.

I also completely agree that it was a mistake to have Gdorf in Twilight Princess. Zant was a fantastic boss in his own right, and didn't need Ganon over his shoulder. I think it weakened Zant as a character, and it weakened TP as a game. If TP had ended after the Zant fight, without any references to Gdorf, I think the game would have been much better. It also represented a huge step backwards in narrative for Zelda. In LttP, you fought Aghanim for the entire game until literally the very end of the game. That was fine then, it was 1994. Over the next decade, Gdorf became far more activist in his own plans, and he developed a great personality, especially in WW. But in TP, the developers rolled back the clock on GDorf, and instead of being a character with motivation and even emotion, he's just a cackling B-villain that appears at literally the very end of the game. It was 2006 when that happened, 12 years after LttP. That kind of simplistic story telling doesn't fly anymore in today's much more sophisticated game world.

You can count all of Ganon's appearances on one hand. That keeps him fresh, and intimidating. It really was a mistake to have GDorf in TP, especially the way it seemed like he was just shoe-horned in. If Nintendo cares at all about retaining his status as an intimidating villain, he should not be in the new Zelda. As it stands now, people react like, "Holy crap, Ganon is bad-***!" If he keeps showing up in games, it'll become "Oh, it's just Ganon again" very quickly.

 

[pitskeyblade]

Ganondorf is a cool villain, but I think he is a bit overdone. Majora's Mask had absolutely nothing to do with Ganondorf, and I think that's why so many people liked that game. It was a breath of fresh air, so to speak. However, since most of the Zelda games revolve around the Triforce, there has to be Ganondorf because he holds the Triforce of Power, and is necessary to completing the Triforce. Ganondorf may be a bit overused, but he is a necessary evil.

 

[zaneebaslave]

I have a feeling that we will not see much of Ganondorf anymore. As you can see at the end of TP, Ganondorf loses the Triforce of Power... and, naturally, dies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGZQAF1t_4U

I think with the timeline split, we often think of Ganondorf as this resurrecting villain, that no matter how many times he dies, he will always come back.

But, in truth, he only really dies twice (As well as Beast Ganon): once for each side of the time-split. So unless he finds a way to come back from the dead, we wont see him again.

Still, I never felt any staleness when it came to Ganondorf. He was only "technically" in three games: OoT, MM, and TP. Many of the other games had Ganondorf's monster incarnate, Ganon.

But it would be nice to have a refreshing new villain every now and then. Perhaps the Triforce of power will come back, with an even deadlier foe to wield it's power.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Ganondorf is entirely fanservice in TP. Though, I think a lot of Zelda fans didn't like that. I think Ganondorf needs to be pushed to the wayside for a while. I still stand up for Vaati as the Zelda series' best villain, because he's the only one with any real personality (WW Ganon and Zant come in pretty close, though). I'd love to see Vaati get a Wii render in Zelda Wii. I'd love it even more if we either got Ganon as an actual character this time, rather than just a shallow symbol for evil, or if we didn't see Ganon at all.

Of course, the Zelda series has a lot of flaws. A lot of gamers need to get a swift kick to the *** so they look past the haze of nostaliga and realize just how many flaws Zelda has.

(Man, for somebody who loves Zelda, I sure seem like I hate it)

 

[WindMajor]

Would Ganondorf be overused if Zant didn't exist?

 

[Spire]

No, this isn't about pokemon tiers, sorry Spire.

Huh? I don't care about Pokemon tiers. Anyways..

With Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, Ganon needs to be put on hold at the hands of death for a while. Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks have done a great job of leaving him out of the picture, but to date, Majora's Mask has been the only console title to have him removed entirely without even a mention. Let's recap all the villains besides Ganon with their respective appearances (not counting appearances as normal/mini bosses):

- Dark Link (1: AoL)
- Agahnim (1: ALttP)
- Nightmare (1: LA)
- Majora's Mask (1: MM)
- Veran (1: OoA)
- Onox (1: OoS)
- Twinrova (2: OoX)
- Vaati (3: TMC, FS, FSA)
- Zant (1: TP)
- Phantom Bellum (1: PH)
- Malladus (1: ST)

12/15 of the games feature alternate antagonists. Eight (LoZ, ALttP, OoT, OoX, WW, FSA, and TP) games feature Ganon, though he is only the primary antagonist in six of them (LoZ, ALttP, OoT, WW, FSA, and TP), and with ALttP, FSA, and TP, he can be considered an equal to Agahnim, Vaati, and Zant in that they play prominent enough roles to put Ganon in his place, despite him being innately more powerful and featured as the final boss.

@ Jam Stunna - TP borrowed about 80% of ALttP's story. They're way too similar.

But I won't digress. Ganon needs to stay out of Zelda for a couple more games before a return will be welcomed by the fans. I'm pretty sure Nintendo killed him off in WW and TP for good reason though - they may tire of him also.

 

[Phantom7]

But I won't digress. Ganon needs to stay out of Zelda for a couple more games before a return will be welcomed by the fans. I'm pretty sure Nintendo killed him off in WW and TP for good reason though - they may tire of him also.

But Ganon is always reincarnated into another Ganon; he is too much like Link and Zelda, bearers of the Triforce. I see him like the "Bowser" of the Zelda series. But maybe Ganon should be presented differently. Or maybe some other villain should join forces with Ganon, then betray him and destroy him to steal the Triforce of Power, and finally become the game's main villain? Just an idea...

 

[Spire]

But Ganon is always reincarnated into another Ganon; he is too much like Link and Zelda, bearers of the Triforce. I see him like the "Bowser" of the Zelda series. But maybe Ganon should be presented differently. Or maybe some other villain should join forces with Ganon, then betray him and destroy him to steal the Triforce of Power, and finally become the game's main villain? Just an idea...

Here's a brief history of Ganon:

Pre-OoT: Ganondorf was born.
OoT: Ganondorf broke the Triforce and became Ganon for the first time before being sealed by Link I, Zelda, and the Sages in the Sacred Realm.
Pre-WW: Ganon/dorf breaks free of his seal and invades an unprotected Hyrule, prompting a divine flood.
WW: Ganondorf is killed by Link II-A and Zelda, and is then sealed beneath the ocean in a trapped Hyrule.
PH: Ganondorf remains dead.
ST: Ganondorf remains dead. Link III-A and Zelda save New Hyrule from Malladus.
LoZ: Ganon returns (not Ganondorf) and is killed by Link IV-A.
AoL: Ganon's minions attempt to resurrect him, but fail.
OoX: Twinrova resurrect a berserk Ganon, but he is killed by Link V-A.

Pre-TP/Circa MM: Ganondorf is imprisoned in the Twilight Realm.
TP: Ganondorf becomes Ganon for the second time and is killed by Link IIB.

Or something like that. The only game that suggests a true reincarnation is FSA, which gives a different backstory to Ganondorf, though it, TMC, FS, and ALttP are incredibly difficult to place. LoZ and OoX feature his resurrection, not reincarnation.

 

[lanky_gunner]

Unfortunetely, I fit in the realm of "fan-boy service", so I have a bias for wanting Ganon/dorf in EVERY Zelda game.

So no, I honestly don't think Ganon is overused. But yeah, they could give a broader emphasis on his traits.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I had a lot of respect for Zant. When he appeared behind you, out of nowhere, and had that talk with Midna, smackin' ya both around... when you saw his mouth on that close up shot and it had like crazy fangs and wowww what a neat villain, his scenes and his design were all very cool...

but then right towards the end, it seemed like his character completely changed. he wasn't as dominating and frightening as he was earlier in the game... he was a coward. and Ganon was just using him, essentially. this really did seem like they just said "ah ****, we better toss Ganon in!" and just did it.

the only thing I liked about the Zant/Ganon duo was that Zant referred to him as "my god" when he talked about him, which I thought was interesting. I don't know. I felt really bad for Zant. It just felt like he got completely shafted.

 

[zaneebaslave]

Really? In my opinion, Zant was petrifying later on in the game. The scariest villain I've seen in a long time. I was seventeen when I first played TP, and he still scared the crap out of me! To me, he reminded me of a fish early on, with his big sardine helmet: A sardine with an attitude. But then he started acting all crazy...

Blech... creepy as hell...

 

[Phantom7]

Really? In my opinion, Zant was petrifying later on in the game. The scariest villain I've seen in a long time. I was seventeen when I first played TP, and he still scared the crap out of me! To me, he reminded me of a fish early on, with his big sardine helmet: A sardine with an attitude. But then he started acting all crazy...

Blech... creepy as hell...

I feel almost the same way. I always referred to Zant as the "fish guy" before I knew his name. At the beginning of the game, I thought he was one hell of an awesome villain, until he revealed his strange, childish side in the Palace of Twilight. It was creepy in a way, but it was just... strange...

 

[Spire]

See, I thought Zant was being played out far too much like Ganondorf until the childish antics kicked in. I then realized that he was a very different character and appreciated him more. By that stage in the game, I felt that Link had been through enough to warrant himself the title of a freakin' MAN, and Zant (with Ganondorf being introduced earlier on in the game) the true coward that he was. He was a worthless being and I wanted to get rid of him. Simply a pest, like the insectoid helm he wore. At that point, I actually felt that Ganondorf's inclusion was justified and upon beating the **** out of Zant, was ready to take on the big G himself. The game felt "epic" at that point -- I had traversed this huge Hyrule, conquered nine dungeons, and was ready to finally storm Hyrule Castle, kill Ganon, and save Zelda.

Twilight Princess just worked for me.

 

[CRASHiC]

I feel the lack of voice acting is what made Zant feel so childish. How can he express his desperation other than the way he did in TP without proper voice acting? He can't. Which is a shame, because he would have really been more fleshed out as a character with an emotion behind his voice.

After played Metriod Prime 3, I'm not longer nervious about Nintendo of America handling the voice acting. I think a Zelda could really benefit from having full voice actors, even if it isn't Link.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I feel the lack of voice acting is what made Zant feel so childish. How can he express his desperation other than the way he did in TP without proper voice acting? He can't. Which is a shame, because he would have really been more fleshed out as a character with an emotion behind his voice.

There are ways of portraying his desperation without being audible. We're able to see him and grasp the meaning of his words. Unfortunately, the efforts of expressing said desperation was admittedly poor, I'd say. Midna did it better.

After played Metriod Prime 3, I'm not longer nervious about Nintendo of America handling the voice acting. I think a Zelda could really benefit from having full voice actors, even if it isn't Link.

They could, Zelda with an accent would be hot, but I shudder at the thought of who they'd pick to voice act. :v

 

[zaneebaslave]

They could, Zelda with an accent would be hot, but I shudder at the thought of who they'd pick to voice act. :v

http://gossip.whyfame.com/files/2009/09/miley-cyrus.jpg

This would kill Zelda forever.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ganon is as overused as Link is.

 

[Phantom7]

@zaneebaslave -- We're talking about British accents (or something similar), not southern accents.

Voice acting would work, as long as Link still never talked. Surely, they wouldn't use a voice-actor for Link, since Nintendo wants the player to "feel" like they are the Hero.

 

[n88]

Really, I'd like to see G-dorf disappear for a few years, then make an epic surprise comeback on Nintendo's next console. I don't think he's overused yet, but he will be if they keep pushing him. And I think voice acting would be fine for Zelda, as long as Link didn't talk and Miley Cyrus was not involved.

 

[WindMajor]

I seriously have a phobia for Miley Cyrus. I'm not joking at all.


That wasn't cool.

 

[DelphinusMach1]

If you look at the series, each Zelda and Link is slightly different. OOT's link was an outcast, while WW's was a reluctant hero and a bit of an island dweller. TP's Link was a bit more mature, and seemed more like a 'proper' hero.

There's nothing to say of the whole Tetra/Zelda thing.

Ganon seems to have remained pretty constant over the series, though. Maybe they should give each incarnation slightly different reasons for being 'evil'?

 

[zaneebaslave]

Ganon seems to have remained pretty constant over the series, though. Maybe they should give each incarnation slightly different reasons for being 'evil'?

That's because it's all the same Ganondorf. There never really was a different reincarnation of him, save for his Pig-form. The Ganondorf from OoT was the same Ganondorf from WW, and the same Ganondorf from TP.

 

[DelphinusMach1]

That's because it's all the same Ganondorf. There never really was a different reincarnation of him, save for his Pig-form. The Ganondorf from OoT was the same Ganondorf from WW, and the same Ganondorf from TP.

Ah, I had the impression all three of the main cast were different incarnations of the three goddesses. Apparently the Red King and the Sages also reincarnate...

Oh, and Tingle. GOD DAMMIT.

 

[CRASHiC]

The sages pass on through the generations. Their off descendants become the new sages.

 

[Jonas]

Voice acting is great, but really, all characters should be voice acted, including the hero. Look at Prime 3, GTA III, Jak & Daxter (although Jak's voice actor in later Jak games did a pretty bad job) for instance. It just seems silly when everyone but the main character talks, especially if there are multiple characters having a conversation. It's like the main character isn't involved in the story besides doing stuff for the other characters. It works with text based conversations beause they're just telling you stuff instead of acting out movie scenes.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

They make the triforce, don't they? Courage, Power, Wisdom? So doesn't Gannondorf have to exist? Also, he always reminded me of Breath of Fire games, incarnations, every game is its own story, etc. It would kinda suck to see him die, because he is one of the few evil monsters nintendo created that is hardcore. I don't approve of him having cornrolls, but he is still awesome.

 

[pickle962]

I think ganon is overused. Give the poor piggy a break nintendo! They should use Vatti, or someone else instead for future releases. We don't see much of him.

 

[Rapax]

Well...

I'm a really big fan of Ganondorf, so personally for me, he can't ever be "overused".
But there are a few things.

For example he was in each fight really, really easy. Except WW. Man, he got the Triforce of POWER. He is infinite strong. But still a hit does only 2 damage? q_q
That is really a shame. He should do 1/2 damage of your life. So if you have 14 hearts, you lose 7. That would make fights more intersting. Additional the occult skills made the fight way too easy.

Ok, that said, the WW-Dorf is simply the best. He was difficult to defeat and had a good motivation to do, what he did.

So, the character and strength of him besides, i like him the most.

Vaati is arrogant (but he was the most challenging villain in MC). I just don't like this guy, not to say i hate him. Beside my own feelings for this stupid guy, he might be a plausible choice for a villain again...

Zant was a bad joke. I really dislike this one also and don't hope to ever meet him again. He was a bad fighter also. Please, never ever take this one again >_>

I never fought Dark Link or Ganon from LoZ and AoL. But at least Dark Link seems really easy. Anyway, he would be a good choice for being the villain again.

And so on.

I was always really excited when i knew that i will fight Ganondorf. But then i was really disappointed, because he gave me no challenge.

Anyway he is like murdock in MacGyver. Murdock also never died^^

But yeah, maybe it would be a good idea to give him a break for a few games and give him a more powerful, more challenging, more intelligent appearance and give him a motive to do, what he'll do.

Then he will be the great villain he was until TP came out...

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

I liked Zant, he was cool in a Dark-puppet type way. I also thought the twilight princess was interesting. (Especially after she "transforms")

 

[The Good Doctor]

Ganondorf should lay in the darkness for a few years, then a killer Zelda trailer will show a "mysterious" figure at the end of the trailer....haha.

"OMG IT'S GANONDORFFFFF"

 

[finalark]

But I won't digress. Ganon needs to stay out of Zelda for a couple more games before a return will be welcomed by the fans. I'm pretty sure Nintendo killed him off in WW and TP for good reason though - they may tire of him also.

Ganny pretty much did die at the end of TP, didn't he? Assuming that the next Zelda is a sequel to TP then I predict that we're going to get someone new. Honestly, I'd like it if Gannondorf pretty much stayed dead for a while (and that Nintendo would work out a stable timeline for the series) then suddenly returned in a much later game, with the words "FANSERVICE" under him in big, bold letters.

See, I thought Zant was being played out far too much like Ganondorf until the childish antics kicked in. I then realized that he was a very different character and appreciated him more. By that stage in the game, I felt that Link had been through enough to warrant himself the title of a freakin' MAN, and Zant (with Ganondorf being introduced earlier on in the game) the true coward that he was. He was a worthless being and I wanted to get rid of him. Simply a pest, like the insectoid helm he wore. At that point, I actually felt that Ganondorf's inclusion was justified and upon beating the **** out of Zant, was ready to take on the big G himself. The game felt "epic" at that point -- I had traversed this huge Hyrule, conquered nine dungeons, and was ready to finally storm Hyrule Castle, kill Ganon, and save Zelda.

Twilight Princess just worked for me.

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who actually liked TP, and I liked the way that they pulled off Zant. On the surfice, he's a freaky monstrosity that looks like he belongs in Majora's Mask (that game was creepy, okay?). But in reality, he's just a coward who only acted tough and scary because he had Mr. Dorf behind him.

Man, I loved TP. The darker story, the setting, scale and dark tone is really what I think the Zelda series need (and anothing game just as unique, surreal, different and subtley horrifying as MM wouldn't hurt).

I feel the lack of voice acting is what made Zant feel so childish. How can he express his desperation other than the way he did in TP without proper voice acting? He can't. Which is a shame, because he would have really been more fleshed out as a character with an emotion behind his voice.

After played Metriod Prime 3, I'm not longer nervious about Nintendo of America handling the voice acting. I think a Zelda could really benefit from having full voice actors, even if it isn't Link.

That's something that I wouldn't mind seeing in the next Zelda series. And really, in this day and age we can get full voice-acting on handhelds. There's no excuse not to have voice acting any more.

 

[Spire]

Ganny pretty much did die at the end of TP, didn't he? Assuming that the next Zelda is a sequel to TP then I predict that we're going to get someone new. Honestly, I'd like it if Gannondorf pretty much stayed dead for a while (and that Nintendo would work out a stable timeline for the series) then suddenly returned in a much later game, with the words "FANSERVICE" under him in big, bold letters.

Though it has been confirmed that Zelda Wii is not a sequel to TP, at least not directly. Also, judging from the design of the shields in both timelines, Link's in the concept art for ZWii reflects the Hylian/Hero's Shield of OoT, MM, and TP, not the more "classic" look that WW/PH, ST, LoZ/AoL, ALttP, etc has.

 

[finalark]

Though it has been confirmed that Zelda Wii is not a sequel to TP, at least not directly. Also, judging from the design of the shields in both timelines, Link's in the concept art for ZWii reflects the Hylian/Hero's Shield of OoT, MM, and TP, not the more "classic" look that WW/PH, ST, LoZ/AoL, ALttP, etc has.

In that case, can we assume that it takes place in the Adult timeline?

Or it's just going to carry on the whole "darker Zelda" thing that was in OoT, MM and TP.

 

[Spire]

In that case, can we assume that it takes place in the Adult timeline?

Or it's just going to carry on the whole "darker Zelda" thing that was in OoT, MM and TP.

Child Timeline* most likely. Again, like many have suspected, this could be the third adventure of the Hero of Time, a true sequel to MM. Though, I'm guessing it'll just be a new Link because how much sense would it make to show an absolutely enormous Hyrule canonically between OoT's smaller Hyrule and TP's medium-sized Hyrule? If Link can be reincarnated in TP to look pretty much identical to his OoT incarnation, so too can he again some whatever hundred years later. Only time will tell though.

 

[finalark]

Child Timeline* most likely. Again, like many have suspected, this could be the third adventure of the Hero of Time, a true sequel to MM. Though, I'm guessing it'll just be a new Link because how much sense would it make to show an absolutely enormous Hyrule canonically between OoT's smaller Hyrule and TP's medium-sized Hyrule? If Link can be reincarnated in TP to look pretty much identical to his OoT incarnation, so too can he again some whatever hundred years later. Only time will tell though.

Spoiler

I actually just found this out, but according to Nintendo (baring direct sequels) there is no timeline, each game is a new continuety. But hey, that isn't going to stop the fans from going nuts with theories, right?

Okay, I can buy that.

Wait, do we even have a Timeline theory thread?

 

[Mic_128]

If there isn't one in here there was one in the lighthouse.

 

[finalark]

If there isn't one in here there was one in the lighthouse.

Well there's one in the Light House (thank you search button). But it hasen't been touched since January... of 2008.

Is it alright if I make a new one in the Zelda section?

 

[Spire]

Spoiler

I actually just found this out, but according to Nintendo (baring direct sequels) there is no timeline, each game is a new continuety. But hey, that isn't going to stop the fans from going nuts with theories, right?

Okay, I can buy that.

Wait, do we even have a Timeline theory thread?

That's Nintendo of America's word. Eiji Aonuma (current director of the franchise) has personally expressed interest in the timeline and as such, was the one to publically announce the split timeline circa TP's debut.

And yes, we have a timeline thread which used to be stickied, but I unstuck it due to extreme inactivity and lack of interest. It should be on the second page or so.

 

[Dynomite]

Ganon wimped out in majora's mask. the man never showed up.