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Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
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ShinEmblemLord
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WASN'T THAT THE MOST EXCITING MATCH EVER?!

No, but seriously you saw how spacing and baiting was like 80% of that match?

And that Marth's spacing wasn't even decent.

I KNOW YOU GUYS ARE JUST ITCHING TO HAVE 6 MINUTE SPACING WARS WITH GOOD MARTH'S M I RITE?!

-___-
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
1,897
Location
Spencer, MA
Marth: (5/5)

General Matchup:

  • Marth plays a very interesting defensive/offensive game vs gw. Capable of punishing poorly spaced aerials, countering, and rushing with good priority, decent ranged attacks make marth very capable of dealing with game and watch's approaches.
  • In most cases, marth will have a hard time outranging your ranged attacks. Approach moves like the turtle, fair, and even dtilt or key will cut through most of marths attacks. However, most other attacks will be beaten by his aerials such as fsmash, nair, upsmash, etc if the marth player spaces right, so watch out.
  • Marth's kill moves are his smashes and uptilt/upair and can hurt alot when tippered. Because marth's range has been reduced in this game, it has become a lot harder for him to land fsmash kills etc, so he isn't as much of a killing machine as he was in the last game. If the marth player is good at setting up tippers, don't be surprised to be killed around 100%.
  • His recovery is both bad and good at the same time. His up b has a very high amount of priority and invincibility frames that makes it very difficult to punish, however when knocked far away off the stage, i think he dies much more frequently than high tiered characters.
  • The only way that marth can edgeguard gw is to drop really low off the stage and try to land a fair, which, because gw's up b has a lot of priority, he shouldn't have a hard time dropping a bit lower than marth can go and just up b through him.
  • Marth is one of the better combo'ers we've seen in this matchup thread. Fair chains, tilts, forward b and other moves help him to string together high damage combos.
  • Overall I would agree to liken marth to metaknight in a lot of ways. Range is slightly to be desired, good priority, great speed on moves and movement, etc. He's a very quick character than can put a lot of pressure on gw.

General Strategies:

  • When approaching marth, make sure that your aerials have their maximum spacing and that you don't leave yourself open afterwards. Against most other characters you have some room to be sloppy because the turtle has a lot of range, a lot more than most characters can handle, however if you space the turtle incorrectly, you'll be eating an up b (tippered most likely) because it has invincibility frames.
  • Because marth has no projectile game, he has no way to force you to approach him, so i wouldn't be surprised if more gw players begin to play more campy against marths, ie forcing them to approach and then punishing based on that. Retreating bairs and dtilts can be extremely difficult for marth to get around.
  • To edgeguard marth, you can try to get a quick fair off on him, but you'll have to do it farther than he can up b to the ledge, as the up b will always go through your fair, so if he's close enough, he'll just up b if he thinks your going to try and intercept him. If not that you can try to grab the ledge to hog, or if he goes above you try to space a ledgehopped up air to push him up off the ground and keep him from landing. He seems to have pretty poor aerial di after the up b so you get a free smash off from this, works very well.
  • Learn to watch for the counter against marth. If you make too much of a pattern with your turtle/fair approaches he'll be able to counter it pretty easily as the moves stay out for a while. Empty short hops work great if you think your falling into a patter and you think your opponent might start countering.
  • Another serious threat to watch out for is the neutral b shield breaker. Against anyone this move can be devastating. Common setups for shield breaks are sh fair to shield break and i've seen combinations of forward b's to shield breaks. These setups aren't the only times that he can do it though, anytime he thinks your shield will stay up he could use it so watch out. Even if he doesn't break your shield, it will still be low allowing for shield pokes.
  • The last big pain in gw's side would b the forward b combo. As far as i know this move comes out in 4 frames, making it one of the faster moves in the game. Great out of shield for marth, great to move away from turtles and then move in with a quick sword dance to punish. Be aware of how quick it is. It can also rack up a lot of damage, try to always di away from all of the hits, never in or down as you'll just eat all of the hits.

Stages:

  • Imo, all of the stages that have worked in the past should work fine here too. Once again gw has more mobility than marth so stages like rainbow cruise etc will work great.
  • Try to avoid stages that give marth alot of platform use as he is probably better at optimizing platforms than you are. Stages like norfair and lylat cruise should be avoided.
 

Patsie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
441
Location
Nashville, Tennessee
Donkey Kong is an absolutely fantastic (and underrated/underused) character, one that, at the top level, will probably be even for GW.

His Advantages:

Weight - DK is one of the top three heaviest characters in the game. He will be able to kill you at 60%, while an uncharged fsmash probably won't kill him at 100% with proper DI. He will often live up to 160% while you attempt to get a kill, and by that time he can get several stocks off on you.

Strength - This isn't as obvious as you would think. GW has absurdly good smashes - range, strength, disjointed hitboxes (except for usmash), and good speed in proportion to their power. DK might be one of the few other characters in the game with smashes just as good - if not better (I think they're better) - than GW. Each one of his smashes uncharged will kill at around 70%. Each one has absurd range because of the length of his arms. Each one, I believe, is the same speed or a bit faster than GW. Point blank - at close range, with both people attempting to Smash, DK will probably kill GW. The matchup requires just as much spacing, I think, as against a good Snake with this in mind.

Recovery - Before you say "Wtf, DK's recovery sucks...", think about a few things. DK has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game, but he has one of the worst vertical recoveries. Against GW, however, this doesn't really matter - GW doesn't have KO moves that kill by sending downwards in a hard-to-recover area. He either kills up (usmash, SS'd dsmash) or up and to the side (fsmash, fair). The one move that's different - non-SS'd dsmash - can still be recovered easily by DK's horizontal recover. Edgeguarding DK is decently easy, but his weight and constantly damaging up-B make it near-impossible to get an early - or even late (before 110%) - kill. Basically: DK is going to live for a long time while he can kill you without a lot of work.

Ground Range - DK's tillts are incredible. His dtilt is good for spamming and has range, his ftilt has MASSIVE range with good priority and damage, and his utilt is excellent for juggling to set up into his awesome uair. I *think* his ftilt has more range than GW's dtilt, but even then, it's extremely hard to space a good DK on the ground. If you're just out of his tilt range, he can still down-B to start aerial juggling.

DK's Danger Zone: You have a big disadvantage on the ground in the area where DK's ftilt goes to a little behind him (where the smaller hitbox of his dsmash is). He can kill you easily and rack up a lot of damage. You have a disadvantage directly over him (his utilt) and a very tiny space above that (where he can uair you before you dair). In the air, you don't want to be near him while his back is facing you. His bair's got range, speed, power, and no lag.

GW's Advantages:

Size - This is a lot bigger than you will think. DK will approach in one of two main ways: tilts or bair. One of DK's biggest disadvantages is the fact that his approach is limited to bair, but, luckily enough for him, it's definitely his best move in his arsenal. Double bairs from DK are great for approaching opponents on the ground, but they're difficult/less effective against smaller characters. It's harder to hit, and DK has to land while using the move while still close to the ground. Against smaller characters, DK normally has to limit his bair approach on a grounded opponent -- this means he's probably mainly sticking to tilts, which are beatable.

Aerials - DK's got some decent aerials, but they're nothing compared to GW's. DK's bair is f'ing incredible, but GW beats or at least rivals it with the turtle. DK's only other great aerial is uair, which GW easily beats with dair. His fair and dair have big problems: slow, predictable, and very easy to punish. GW has range and disjointed hitboxes on his aerials, which means that DK will probably not try to approach via the air as much if not at all. Basically, GW will try to stay airborne while DK will try to stay on the ground.

Speed - DK is alarmingly fast for his size, which could throw off a lot of GW players. Don't be put off by it, though -- GW is faster. All of his air moves come out incredibly quickly with great range. Nair and bair have very little landing lag. DK can and will overpower you, but the trick to playing against him is to hit and run with your better aerials until you can get a kill.

Air Range - This is mostly explained in aerials, but it's worth repeating. GW can rack a lot of damage on DK with little risk. When DK's off the edge, he will, in all likelihood, get back. However, GW can still interrupt the recovery for a good while by avoiding DK's damaging up-B with disjointed hitboxes on fair and bair. Disjointed hitboxes are huge because, for a good amount of the time, you can approach and retreat if your attack pings with his without taking damage.

GW's Danger Zone: Basically, anywhere in the air is dangerous for DK. His worst situation with you is above you. His dair is way too slow with a small hitbox to faze you, and his only option is really either airdodging (predictable) or fast-falling a nair (small hitbox, little priority). If he's facing you in the air, he's in trouble. He's also in danger if you're above him. Your dair > his uair. Basically, GW is more dangerous anywhere in the air except where DK has his back turned to you, and then it's mostly even.

General Strategies:

Strap your goggles on, son, because you're going to the air.

DK doesn't take kindly to people who try to approach him on the ground. He's got too much power, too much range, and too much speed. If you try shielding, DK's got one of the better grabbing games in Smash with his cargo throw to set up a myriad of situations, all of which could potentially screw you.

Bair remains an amazing approach for a grounded DK, and, to be honest, you should be use it to the point of spamming. His size means he's pretty susceptable to the turtle's range, and he can be shieldpoked easily. It comes out fast, it racks up damage, it loves bigger targets, and the last hit pops him out and above you - right where you want him. If DK is staying on the ground, which he probably will, resort to your safest, most effective approach: bair that simian until he decides to get his banana-loving behind off the ground.

Dair is a good approach too, but it's a bit predictable. I also think he can connect with a usmash (killing you at some absurdly low percent) while you do it. Fair is normally good in most matchups, but with DK a whiffed fair means that he will probably kill you above 65% with a fsmash while you're in landing lag. Since DK has so much potential to punish in such a big area, you've gotta be as safe as possible.

Basically: the best place you want to keep DK is above you in the air. Nair destroys him with it's hitbox size and his character size. Uair juggling can set up for the occasional usmash for a ton of damage. He's got very little offensive options in the air except bair on you, so abuse him and rack up as much damage as possible while he's airborne. You know that most of the time he's going to airdodge, so predict and punish with one of your smashes.

GW's recovery makes it hard for DK to pull off his early kill moves (Cargo Stage Spike, dair, fair), but it doesn't matter as much because GW's weight makes him die so early with smashes.

One last thing: know that DK, like GW, can rack up damage without you really even realizing it. A triple bair combo or a bunch of stringed tilts will put you at 40%. GW has the same ability with his arsenal, but the difference is, DK only needs two strings of combos to put you in the kill-zone, while you need 4-6.

Matchup Rating:

This matchup would be in GW's favor by just matching each character's movesets. However, when you consider weights, I highly doubt this is in GW's favor. So, I'd give the matchup:

5/5
 

Hawks go Caw

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
598
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New Orleans, LA
Even if DK can't be gimped, it doesn't make his recovery an "advantage." G&W's recovery is significantly better, can be followed up with an attack, and pushes opponents up to help prevent being spiked.

DK has more range, but all of his attacks are part of his body so G&W outprioritizes a vast majority of DK's arsenal. Dk's Ftilt has greater range than G&W's Dtilt, but if used at the same time, manhole should win because it's hitbox is huge and disjointed.

Dash attack sounds like it'd be fairly useful in this match up when not spammed. If only it didn't have such terrible ending lag, then it'd be as good of an approach as Bair simply because of its priority. But yeah, it's priority should be able to go through or at least trade with Dk's tilts.

G&W's Usmash clashes with DK Punch.

I agree that DK is underrated (one of the best in LA right now mains DK), but I still think G&W has an advantage due to his maneuverability, speed, and priority. I'd say 7/3 for G&W.
 

Patsie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
441
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Nashville, Tennessee
I wasn't trying to say that his recovery > GW's, sorry, I wasn't that clear. I was basically saying that you're not going to kill him through any means aside from a star KO or a KO off the side that can't be DI'd out of. Basically, you can't edgeguard DK to the point of death, which gives him a pretty big advantage considering his weight in recovery.

I really haven't studied up on priority, but I'm pretty sure equal priority = ping regardless of whether the attack is disjointed. At least, that's my experience, but I'm really not sure.

I'm sorry, but against a good DK, dash attack spam is a poor idea. You could get it in every once and a while if he whiffs a dair or fair, but if he's just sitting there, you're going to get shielded then either grabbed or dsmashed (which will kill at around %70 I think on GW). The move is way too laggy and DK's smashes are way too good for it to be any useful aside from sporratic use. Meanwhile, bair is spammable because it's so safe, you can miss and still be defensive.
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
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i really don't think theres anyway this is a 7/3 matchup for gw, no way. maybe you need to play more dk's or something because he's one of the few characters in the game with enough range and power to compete with gw.

Good analysis patsie.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
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Melbourne, FL
Nice job Patsie.
My little nugget- despite G&W's great recovery, DK does have his spikes to keep in mind. Fair, dair, and side-b all spike. So try not to stall getting back on the stage.

Edit: With DK's lack of projectiles, it sounds like Chef would rule in this match, wouldn't it?
 

Ruuku

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Messages
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Kissimmee, FL
Just from seeing Linguini's DK so many times, I think that in this matchup, DK's Ftilt and Dtilt will be hurting G&W quite a bit. G&W should be careful with his approaches whenever DK's Neutral B is fully charged. It has super armor frames and it obviously is a kill move. At that point, an approach using Chef should be helpful.

I can see G&W's Dair being useful in this matchup. Full hopped Bairs followed by Nairs should be pretty good as well. Dair/Nair/Bair followed by UpB can be good to send DK airborne. I do think that this is a really even matchup.

Also, I suggest that our next discussion is about ROB.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
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My mistake, I thought we were going by tier levels.
Diddy sounds good as our next match-up, if we're going by difficulty.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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DK is in G&W's favor. 6/4 I'd say

DK has only two aerial attacks that are remotely worth talking about. His B-air, and his U-air. You can snuff the B-air by simply using Chef. Your D-air DOES outprioritize his U-air, but it is not worth challenging in the event he hits you with it because it does happen to be his best vertical killer too in terms of range, speed, and power combined.

DK otherwise has only about one or two other reliable kill options. His D-smash and Giant Punch. The D-smash comes out slightly faster than G&W's kill moves and huge range. The Giant Punch doesn't have incredible range, comes out significantly slower, but has SA frames when fully charged, making it moderately dangerous to be aggressive against a fully charged up DK. Watch out for these two kill moves when you are at high percents and everything should be fine.

Because DK is big, and has only like two reliable aerials, he's ridiculously easy to juggle. His recovery is also extremely onetracked, and if he misses the ledge, usually has horrible landing lag if he falls from too great a height, so therefore it is easy to anticipate and punish. Not much surprise here, but DK doesn't really have much in terms of ledgeguarding G&W.

Because DK is one of those unusual characters that has a bit more range than you do, playing aggressively doesn't work as well unless you're juggling him. He's heavy, so D-throw combos are more difficult. If he D-smashes your shield, it will push you out of grab range of course, so instead use attacks to punish it.

DK's blind spot below him is abysmal. His D-air is an awful attack, and his N-air doesn't really help protect him from below that well either. U-air stalling him is most definitely worthwhile. Keep in mind that his DI top speed is faster than yours though, so be prepared to follow up with another attack.

All in all, I'd say Chef is more useful in this particular matchup than any. DK has no reliable options to get past it, it ruins his mobility, and completely stops him from using his best aerial attack since it will turn him around. DK's recovery is also very easily hit by Chef, which is another plus.

The only real reason why this matchup isn't any more in G&W's favor is because G&W has to be more careful about throwing out his kill moves because of DK's sufficient range which can punish G&W for whiffing something.
 

Needle of Juntah

Smash Champion
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Nov 25, 2003
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i dont think i have any Dk vids but i did have to beat one in my most recent tourney he really just took me off guard than anything. the down smash has a huge hitbox crazy priority and his donkey punch does well cause super armor
 

cutter

Smash Champion
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An important thing to know about DK's Giant Punch is that it only has super armor on the actual punch, and not on the windup before the attack executes.
 

Hawks go Caw

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DK Punch also extends backwards toward his shoulder, so even if he's facing away from you it's still a threat if you're close enough. I guess 7/3 was a bit too drastic, but I still give G&W the advantage, even if it is only a slight one.
 

A2ZOMG

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OMG, I totally just remembered.

You can full hop autocancel F-air in this matchup. And still easily hit DK if he's on the ground. Just keep that in mind.
 

cutter

Smash Champion
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This is actually a matchup where you can use Chef to its maximum potential! DK will have to approach you, and he does so with Bairs or tilts. Chef is good at playing keep away and giving G&W a camping game?!? Apparently so.

In the air, G&W obliterates DK. He is a prime target for Nair since he's so big, and all other aerials are fantastic because they are disjointed and have high priority.

DK must keep this game on the ground and as far away from the stage as possible (since G&W will pursue relentlessly offstage).
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
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Messages
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Spencer, MA
Donkey Kong: (5/5)

General Matchup:

  • Donkey Kong's major strong suits are his weight, power, and range. He'll be using all of these to their maximum extent to take you down so learn how to get around them or to cope with them.
  • DK's priority is pretty well matched up with his range. Most of his attacks aren't disjointed like gw's are however, which will allow you to win in most cases. If your attacks collide, either expect to win or for them to cancel out. The only time dk will hit you through your attack is if he has invincibility frames, super armor frames, or he simply went around your hitbox somehow.
  • DK's power is nearly unmatched in this game. Only characters like ike and ganon can really compete in terms of strength, although not even close in speed. DK is loaded with kill moves that can strike gw down in the early 70's, even 60's depending on placement. Downsmash and neutral b are probably the most devastating ones. Downsmash is quite good because it is extremely fast out of the shield, hitting above him in what seems like just a few frames. This move kills upward in the 70's for gw, and has a surprising amount of range. The neutral b, when charged, gets SA frames, which can really throw off how you approach DK. A fair that looks like a free hit will turn into an early demise if you aren't careful. Other kill moves of note are fsmash (really incredible forward range), upsmash (good range, fairly quick), up air and bair sometimes (although usually used a lot so not often killed with).
  • Dk's recovery looks pretty terrible at a glance, but upon further inspection, its not half bad. Im pretty sure that the first 10 frames or so of the move grant invincibility frames, the move hits a lot for a lot of damage, covers more vertical distance than in melee, can cancel well for combos near the stage. Dair from above will def knock him out, but good spacing w/ the fair and bair will be needed.
  • Dk's edgeguarding usually involves aggressive bairs, or up b's that are started off the stage and then maneuvered in. Both of these would require dk not to go too far down, which means your in the clear for most situations.
  • Dk's combo game is somewhat lacking, although thats not where he specializes. It isn't too unusual to see some nifty bair combos, up air combos, although these will be harder for DK to unleash on gw because he is so small.
  • Dk has a large frame, is fairly heavy, fun combos : )

General Strategies:

  • Your biggest problem in this matchup will be competing for the range. Ftilt, fsmash, bair, dtilt, and down b all have enormous ranges that match yours. You'll find yourself keeping your spacing tight if you want to land hits to start combo's up. If the dk plays right they'll be able to punish you for messing any of your spacing up w/ down b's and the works.
  • The second biggest problem? winning the percent game. In order to beat dk's you need to minimize the amount of damage you take, and maximize theirs. This seems obvious to beat any character, but because the weight gap between the two characters is much larger than most matchups, this because quite the issue. He'll be killing you in the 70's, you'll be killing him in the 110's most likely. Theres a good 40% you need to make up on every stock, putting you at a disadvantage, keep that in mind.
  • If your opponent is very precise with the neutral b's SA frames, then you could be in a lot of trouble. When he has his punch charged up, you need to avoid approaching mindlessly, no matter how good your spacing is. Learn to empty your shuffles into grabs, or learn to air dodge through him into grabs to keep them on their feet. If they think theres a good chance that you'll drop in for a grab, then they won't be so eager to throw the donkey punch around.
  • Whenever possible, learn to keep the match controlled in the air. GW's aerials will blow dk's out of the water in almost every situtation. Bair is the only real pain, only because its so fast and has so much range. Fair, nair, dair, and up air either don't have enough range, have no priority, or are too slow to compete with gw's aerials.
  • Although i've been raving about Dk's speed, don't compare the two. GW is miles ahead of dk's speed, i just don't want you to underestimate how fast dk can be. Learn to use your superior aerial mobility to weave in and out of dk's range to score hits and combos.
  • Make good use of the chef in this matchup, especially when dealing with a fully charged donkey punch. Chef will cancel out his approaches, he's huge, so he can't just avoid them.
  • Best thing to do against a recovering dk is to try and get as much damage in as possible. He's pretty difficult to gimp, so settle for racking up that extra damage you'll need to kill him. Fair/bair/dair should all knock him out with proper spacing.

Stages:

  • Moving stage = huge advantage. Take him to rainbow cruise, place has a lot of vertical movement, lots of places for him to die. Frigate orpheon would also work really well i imagine.
  • Avoid stages with small boundaries as you'll die way to early here to make a dent on the DK. Also, if your teching game isn't spot on, stages with lips could pose a problem as well. Any stage with a walk-off ledge may also want to be avoided because of the cargo throw setups he can utilize.
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
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im usually waiting for more people to respond to these matchups before i update, being too hasty would be unwise, especially for the tougher matchups.

Also for note, these are going in a relative order of difficulty so ddd/samus and the like won't be for a while.

I've decicded to do diddy next because i think its a really interesting matchup. On paper it would seem like its a really easy matchup, however gw players are very used to having near ultimate priority. The bananas, when thrown go through ALL of gw's attacks, which can make it difficult to approach. Gw's dash attack isn't amazingly fast nor does it cover a lot of distance, making it poor for collecting bananas. I would think that diddy's setups with bananas could wreck gw, but i'd like to get some feedback from you guys.

Bananas go through the up b as well, meaning he's one of the few characters that can actually edgeguard gw. Oh and gw's glide toss is amazing, don't forget to factor that in.

Please put down numbers for the matchup, like 6/4 gw or something along those lines.
 

cutter

Smash Champion
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Getting drilled by AWPers
I have almost no experience at all against Diddy Kong because almost nobody uses him. So I'll go on pure intuition on this matchup.

According to Neb's projectile defense guide, our high priority attacks don't stop the bananas which is a problem like you mentioned OBM. I think the best way to circumvent the bananas is to pick a stage with lots of platforms (ie Battlefield) or a moving stage (Rainbow Cruise to the rescue once more!) so you stay off the ground as much as you can. This also gives you many different ways to approach Diddy so he can't reliably chuck the bananas at you from just one angle.

With multiple platforms, there's bound to be a good amount of fighting in the air, which is EXACTLY where G&W wants this match to be. Diddy's aerials don't even come close to the sheer priority, power, damaging capabilites, disjointed hitboxes, and lingering hitboxes that G&W has. Also, when you're in the air, you won't trip from the bananas :)

Diddy has one fatal flaw though; he can't KO to save his life. Even with a fresh Fsmash or Dsmash, I've easily survived up to 130%-140%, and this is G&W we're talking about here! Conversely, he's lightweight and he dies very quickly from G&W's overpowered kill moves. Trading hits wouldn't be too bad of an idea since G&W's moves are very damaging (ie Nair, Fair, Bair, Dair, techchasing with Dthrow).

And I agree OBM; abuse G&W's insane glide toss as much as you can. Just be careful not to trip on the other banana if it's close by :(

Now that I think about it, Rainbow Cruise seems like the picture perfect counterpick against Diddy. A constantly moving stage means lots of aerial fighting (where G&W absolutely DOMINATES Diddy) and fewer opportunities to set up bananas.

EDIT: Ok guys, I did a bunch of testing on damage % for kill moves. I only did smashes since I did this by myself.

Anyway, the first percentage in blue is the % that the move will kill WITHOUT DI. The % in the parentheses and in red is when the move will WITH DI. All this was tested on the very center of Final Destination in training mode, so the moves were as they were fresh. Duh.

G&W on Diddy:
Fsmash: 86% (89%)
Usmash: 76% (83%)
Dsmash *sweetspot* 78% (89%)
Dsmash *sourspot* 121% (130%)

Diddy on G&W
Fsmash: 114% (135%)
Dsmash: 113% (147%)


AFAIK, those are Diddy's only reliable kill moves, his Fsmash and Dsmash. His Usmash is almost exclusively for damage dealing and not for killing (G&W survives at 214% without DI).
 

omegablackmage

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moar discussion!

oh btw, im going on vaca for a week, so i won't be able to update it. I want to see a lot more input from everyone about vs diddy. After that though, mid week sometime you guys could probably switch over to talking about olimar. Lets go with wednesday you guys can start. However i won't update olimar until diddy is fully discussed.
 

Neb

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moar discussion!

oh btw, im going on vaca for a week, so i won't be able to update it. I want to see a lot more input from everyone about vs diddy. After that though, mid week sometime you guys could probably switch over to talking about olimar. Lets go with wednesday you guys can start. However i won't update olimar until diddy is fully discussed.
Alright, have a good one then, OBM. Hopefully we can hold the fort.
The discussion should be thorough by Wednesday.

Edit:
Oh and, good work, Cutter. Looks like Diddy is really at a disadvantage, especially since he has trouble KO'ing G&W, a very light character. Which means, they'll be plenty of slag in this particular match-up. The thing is, Diddy's are usually skilled in packing on damage to reach KO ratios, in order finish a foe off with a smash. So basically, they're good at loading damage, thats why Banana's are a big key in his game.
 

A2ZOMG

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I've actually played this matchup quite a lot online, and I did once go against Teh Spammerer using Diddy (and he completely obliterated me that time :().

Diddy I think is definitely in G&W's favor, but this one can go either way depending on who gets momentum first. I'd say 6/4 for G&W, mainly because he's a technically superior character, but this matchup mainly revolves around who has control over Bananas if the Diddy knows what he's doing.

You win in terms of kill strength, recovery, range, priority, and ledgeguarding. G&W also has one of the best glide tosses in Brawl (much better than Diddy's), which if used in opportune moments, will allow you to combo into a free Smash attack, so if you aren't in the nack of glide tossing, get into it (and btw, to glide toss, use the C-stick immediately after initiating a roll). G&W's high priority arsenal of attacks and great mobility (Diddy runs a bit faster, but that's about it if I recall) also helps him control the Banana fortress a bit.

Diddy however is better at approaching than you. G&W also has fairly poor getup options when knocked to the ground, so if he gets knocked to the ground by a Banana, it's very difficult to avoid whatever Diddy wants to hit you with (usually at low percents, he'll go for a Dash attack, which has crazy low ending lag, and at high percents, he'll start looking to F-smash or D-smash you especially if he pressured you near the ledge). Make sure you watch were Diddy throws Bananas. Also, because G&W is fairly lightweight, Diddy's low kill strength is much less of an issue for him (mind you, you kill at lower percents than he kills you, but he definitely does not have trouble scoring KOs in this matchup especially when his Bananas are easy setups into Smashes, so watch out for that).

One important thing I've noticed is that G&W can't really throw out Smash attacks blindly in this matchup because Bananas can punish those pretty easily.
 

Mr. Escalator

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HotGarbage to the rescue!

<HotGarbage> Diddy:
<HotGarbage> fsmash: 11 startup, 25 cooldown?, 47 total
<HotGarbage> dsmash: 5 startup, 36 cooldown?, 52 total
<HotGarbage> usmash: 4 startup, 28 cooldown?, 50 total

<HotGarbage> G&W:
<HotGarbage> fsmash: 16 startup, 10 cooldown, 42 total
<HotGarbage> dsmash: 14 startup, 10 cooldown?, 33 total
<HotGarbage> usmash: 23 startup, 10 cooldown??, 38 total

<HotGarbage> ? means unsure, plus or minus a few frames. ?? means really unsure, but in the general ballpark :]
<HotGarbage> so diddy's smashes come out faster (though not my much) but are much more punishable. And don't kill at 90% >____>
<HotGarbage> <_____>
There you have it.
Their fsmashes were what I initially what I wanted to compare, as mine seemed to come out quicker, have more range, and end quickly. I was wrong in the startup time, though, as Diddy's hits at frame 12, while G&W's hits on frame 17. The cool down is much nicer, though.

Not to mention they kill better!!

I've done this matchup, and it really feels in G&W's favor. Pressure is the key !___!

That is all.
 

Mr. Escalator

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No, the hitbox comes out on frame 6 :p
This is, of course, only half of the Dsmash, as Diddy's Down Smash hits one side first, and then the other. Like Luigi's or Mario's down smash. So on frame six, it hits on one side, and moves to the other.

Ill find out for you
 

cutter

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Ok fine, Diddy's Dsmash comes out frame 6. Still, that's ****ing fast for a smash (well then again it's Diddy).

It would be awesome if we got complete frame data for G&W's attacks. I'd be so happy :bee:

EDIT: Is it ok if I write up the summary of G&W vs. Diddy? Then we can move onto Olimar if people want to or we can discuss Diddy more. As we know, OBM is gone until like the 24th or so.
 

cutter

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ok, I'll write up the analysis after I have dinner.

Alright, here's the write-up, in OBM format ;)

Diddy Kong: (6/4)

General Matchup

  • Diddy’s bananas are the focal point of his game. He will be using them to control the stage, combo with them (yes, actual combos), and for mind game purposes. What really makes things incredibly frustrating is that the bananas will go through ALL of G&W attacks, including Dtilt, Bair and Up B (when you’re not invincible). This can give G&W major problems with approaching because he relies on his fortress of priority to pierce through stuff.
  • However, when you look at Diddy’s other attacks, they pale in comparison to G&W’s high priority, disjointed, lingering attacks.
  • G&W is pretty screwed if he gets caught in bananas. His get-up attack is mediocre and his roll is bad. An expert Diddy player will have no problem at all following up a trip with his amazing Dash into more attacks, or more banana tripping suckage for G&W.
  • As bad as this all sounds, Diddy has one major flaw: he is one of the worst characters in the game when it comes to killing. His main kill options are Fsmash, Dsmash, and Fair. Diddy must keep these moves fresh at all times or he won’t be killing G&W until the 160-170 range. Even with fresh kill moves, Diddy STILL has problems killing G&W unless he’s right on the edge of the stage. There is nothing more demoralizing for Diddy than G&W surviving a fresh Fsmash at 130% and recovering with ease.
  • Diddy is very lightweight (not featherweight like G&W obviously). He dies very quickly to G&W’s smashes and Fair. When you compare percentages at which both characters kill each other, G&W has a huge advantage over Diddy without question.

General Strategies

  • Bananas, bananas, bananas. Always pay attention to where these suckers are at all times. Don’t just approach normally. Use shield cancelled dashes, air dodges, and Up B to bait banana tossing. You don’t want Diddy getting you in a nasty combo if you get tripped by a banana.
  • Pressure Diddy as much as you can. Don’t let him set up his bananas uncontested. It is almost as bad as letting Snake plant his mines, C4, grenades and mortarslide around everywhere. If you can successfully put pressure on Diddy and keep him from fully utilizing bananas, you’ll make this matchup a hell of a lot easier.
  • If you’re knocked offstage, Diddy is more than likely going to go for a spike/gimp on you. If he tries to spike you (either with his Dair or the jetpack), Uair him to get Diddy off of you. If he attempts to do his teabagging grab (side B), Up B to get out of trouble and blowing him away.
  • Stay in the air. G&W’s aerials flat out dominate Diddy’s aerials. Don’t get me wrong, Diddy has great aerials, but they don’t match up to G&W’s massive disjointed hitboxes. The other big reason to stay in the air is so you don’t trip like you would on the ground.
  • If you manage to pick up a banana, abuse G&W’s glide toss as much as you can. G&W’s glide toss is absolutely ridiculous, allowing him to traverse almost halfway across Final Destination. Glide toss into *move* is great stuff. Just remember where the other banana is or you could slide right into it.
  • Diddy is in trouble if he’s off the stage with G&W. Without a place to use his bananas, Diddy’s options are severely limited. Fair is great at hitting him back off the stage. Diddy has his Side B to give him a decent boost sideways, but his Up B must be charged if he’s going to get back. Make sure you don’t waste your invincibility frames while on the ledge because the jetpack blast stage spikes. If Diddy overshoots the ledge, he’ll be open for punishment.

Stages

  • Maps that have lots of aerial fighting and with few opportunities for Diddy to set up his bananas are the best stages. Rainbow Cruise fits the bill perfectly; most of the fighting is in the air, and the constantly scrolling stage limits Diddy’s banana game.
  • Avoid linear stages where Diddy can easily set up bananas and easily do craploads of damage on you. Final Destination would be a very good example; the flat surface gives Diddy tons of room for him to operate, and it gives G&W not so many options to approach Diddy when he has his bananas set up.
Questions, comments, etc. are all welcome. If we're done with Diddy, we'll move onto Olimar.
 
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