Game Play and Technical Analysis

[mimgrim]

It would make no sense to give someone the instruction to DI as horribly as possible, and it would also be extremely visible if they were not taking the opportunity to airdodge when possible out of tumble, or were purposely DI-ing everything horribly. That was a real match with real combos.

I don't agree. It wouldn't be that hard for professionals to make a rigged game look real, at all. That match was purely advertisement. It's also pretty obvious, imo, that the Mario sandbag anyway, as it was a video meant to make Megaman look good.

 

[Shaya]

It also existed in brawl.

 

[[TSON]]

I don't agree. It wouldn't be that hard for professionals to make a rigged game look real, at all. That match was purely advertisement. It's also pretty obvious, imo, that the Mario sandbag anyway, as it was a video meant to make Megaman look good.

This is a Smash Bros. game, though. You can see when someone is playing the game badly very easily. Bad DI/missed recovery opportunities/fluked combos and the like are very obvious. Mario wasn't sandbagging, really. If they wanted to make MM look great, stuff like the missed hard knuckle meteor smash would probably not have happened. I think it's just a new player (iirc they let a press-guy play the game for this demonstration) playing against Sakurai.

 

[ndayday]

Nah he's part of NOA localization staff and translated for the Dojo back in the Brawl days. His name is slipping me atm but I'm pretty sure they say it in the video.
Regardless it didn't look like a fake match to me

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I decided to merge these threads so we can discuss general game play and advance techs all in one thread.

 

[Jem.]

At 4:21 I swear to god Zelda ledge canceled. SILENT SPECTRE CHECK THIS OUT.

Subject to change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

...Ledge cancelling is in Brawl too. It's just a natural thing that happens with aerials on the tips of ledges and platforms.

 

[Dax]

I'm confused as to why people are talking about a match being fake and stuff.
It's not fake. It's just a random match.
But the combos are not true.
Why? Because they're bad players, that's it. There is no intelligent DI whatsoever, no tentative airdodge, and that's why as it looks now, from what I've seen, I don't think combos will be back, or just in limited form

 

[Ulevo]

Someone else spotted Mario hit stun cancelling during the bit that showed Rosalina's moves.
http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=24m19s

Not sure what to think since it's the only time I've ever seen it happen in any footage, but it'll be disappointing if it ends up in the finished game.

That's not cancelling hit stun. Mario doesn't air dodge after the combo for a really long time. Plenty of time for a follow up assuming you have the positioning. Now, that doesn't mean that Mario air dodged as soon as possible, but to me this is very promising.

 

[ImaClubYou]

...Ledge cancelling is in Brawl too. It's just a natural thing that happens with aerials on the tips of ledges and platforms.

I don't remember saying it wasn't in Brawl, lol. But at the same time the ledge cancel happened so quick it reminded me of Melee.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Just posted this in the "things confirmed" thread, but why not here too? I captured a gif real quick from the direct. Things I noticed. Mario's speed is pretty impressive. His aerials come out quickly, and there's a good deal of aerial lateral movement, suggesting air movement may be more momentum based than in Brawl. There is little lag on landing. Also, more importantly, look at the dash at the beginning. More evidence that dash dancing may be returning?

 

[ImaClubYou]

Looked more like a stutter step or foxtrot or whatever you call it.

 

[Shaya]

I don't remember saying it wasn't in Brawl, lol. But at the same time the ledge cancel happened so quick it reminded me of Melee.

Ledge cancels are, by their nature, instantaneous as it is.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Looked more like a stutter step or foxtrot or whatever you call it.

Go watch a brawl video (or play it if you have it). You'll see that the range of the dash is longer and has more lag at the end of it than this. It is more awkward and has less utility than this does, as the clip would suggest. It's also being executed by someone of (presumably) low skill. That's why I said there's evidence that it MAY return.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Is there any way we can get an OP that has all the gifs of "combos" or technical play?

 

[SynikaL]

Just posted this in the "things confirmed" thread, but why not here too? I captured a gif real quick from the direct. Things I noticed. Mario's speed is pretty impressive. His aerials come out quickly, and there's a good deal of aerial lateral movement, suggesting air movement may be more momentum based than in Brawl. There is little lag on landing. Also, more importantly, look at the dash at the beginning. More evidence that dash dancing may be returning?

That's not a Dash Dance. Mario is coming to a full stop after each Dash. That said, the recovery frames after a Dash seem negligible, which is good.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

That's not a Dash Dance. Mario is coming to a full stop after each Dash. That said, the recovery frames after a Dash seem negligible, which is good.

Which is why I said "evidence that dash dancing MAY be returning"

 

[SynikaL]

Which is why I said "evidence that dash dancing MAY be returning"

Of course, it ended up being no evidence of such a thing AT ALL, making the "may" qualifier meaningless?

 

[Priap0s]

Is there any way we can get an OP that has all the gifs of "combos" or technical play?

I second this. Would be awesome to have relevant gifs added to OP.

 

[Masterphailure]

I've noticed that a lot of moves have received a considerable range increase. I recall seeing Mario Up Smash and his head had an insanely long hitbox.

 

[Dax]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJhU9PffxWk&feature=youtu.be&t=40s

this had me wondering about DD more than the mario clip, but I'm not sure

 

[Masterphailure]

I do recall Brawl having DD, so I see no reason why Smash 4 wouldn't have it as well.

 

[MechaWave]

All moves seemingly were increased in range, in general. I believe Marth's range is now like it was in Melee, it's pretty big.

 

[Manty]

That's not a Dash Dance. Mario is coming to a full stop after each Dash. That said, the recovery frames after a Dash seem negligible, which is good.

What about this one?

Watch Pikachu

 

[SynikaL]

I do recall Brawl having DD, so I see no reason why Smash 4 wouldn't have it as well.

The interval with which you could execute it was so tiny it was ineffectual and essentially non-existent. Dash Dance is more a tactic enabled by Melee's design rather than something expressly intentional, in terms of mechanicsl.

What about this one?

Watch Pikachu

Maybe? It looks more in line with the Mario GIF in terms of movement, but the puffs of smoke that signal the full stops/starts are missing. It looks like too wide an interval to be an effective Dash Dance, really, but I don't think we'll know anything until someone from the community gets their hands on the game.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Of course, it ended up being no evidence of such a thing AT ALL, making the "may" qualifier meaningless?

Not true. The mechanic of the dash itself is integral in the function of dash dancing. The removal of ending lag, and reduction in its range, imply a shift in the direction of melee's dash. The fluidity of movement and dashing could suggest a return of dash dancing. Not to mention the pikachu gif and this one come closer to a dash dance than anything found in Brawl.

Also, lighten up a little in general

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Mobility

Spoiler

Combos

Spoiler

Trails behind characters that may indicate hitstun intervals (see this link)



I will continue to add more to this as I sift through the forum

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Backwards ledge grabbing is confirmed in the Greninja trailer. Greninja does this after his Up B on the Pilotwings stage.

 

[Snakeyes]

Those aren't dashdances.

 

[1MachGO]

It looks like too wide an interval to be an effective Dash Dance

What? Dashdances aren't useful if they don't have a wide interval. See: Melee Sheik.

However, I agree with everyone else you said. Too early to tell for sure.

 

[Fuqua]

Dash dancing gifs

Spoiler

Combos

Spoiler

I will continue to add more to this as I sift through the forum

I think Bowser DD's at 7:00min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

 

[Bread-Butterer]

What? Dashdances aren't useful if they don't have a wide interval. See: Melee Sheik.

However, I agree with everyone else you said. Too early to tell for sure.

Surely we can all agree that there appears to be improved maneuverability in the dash mechanic (from Brawl, in any case)

 

[Bread-Butterer]

I think Bowser DD's at 7:00min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

There's more of a turn than you'd see in Melee. Still, it's a good sign that there's some improved ground mobility there. Movement looks a lot less awkward now, which is a factor that all but killed Brawl for me.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think the air dodge out of tumble is simply Smash's answer to an aerial Ukemi.

 

[[TSON]]

k i just wanted somewhere to dump my observations from what we've seen so far so yeah i'll probably be updating this in the future
Mechanics
- No hitstun cancelling
- Rolls are faster
- Fast falls are significantly faster, fall speeds are faster
- Knockback stacking is not Melee-style, may be the same as Brawl
- No characters revealed so far have attack tethers. Can't believe nobody noticed that yet... every single one has been removed, and there's no pictures of zairs homing into ledges (?)
- You seem to remain in egg form a lot longer (or demonstrators suck?)
- Ledges are more strict than Brawl
- Foes don't "wiggle" in hitlag anymore, instead they move slowly in the direction of knockback
- Aerial attacks can clank
- Dash dance window is the entire dash animation

Character Movesets
- Bowser now spins during up smash
- Peach's up aerial is now a weird rainbowy thing
- Peach's dash attack now has a disjointed hitbox and a "flare" graphic
- Luigi's jump animations are from Super Mario 3D World (flutter jump)
- Pit's arrows have better control
- Yoshi's dash attack is a kick
- Link's upB height is like SSB 64 height almost (oh no)
- Mega Man's forward tilt nair and jab all fire 3 mega buster shots
- Bowser's dair is a stall-then-fall like Toon Link's and has downward KB
- Mario's fireballs don't die on shield hit (?)
- Olimar's jabs are now punches
- Sonic's dair meteor smashes
- Mega Man's sliding kick is dtilt
- Zelda's Phantom Slash goes farther the more that you charge it.
- Sheik's bouncing fish has a LOTTTTTTTTT of endlag.
- Dedede's Gordo throw functions like Waddle Throw in Brawl - he is able to re-throw them.
- Dedede's Gordos can hurt him if someone else attacks them.
- The Mega Evolutions are probably not Final Smashes, or final forms camera/traits have been tweaked.
- Rosalina's moveset is different when Luma is far away (?)
- Villager's down special requires pressing downB many times
- Charizard's sideb or dash attack mirrors his upB from Brawl, or he can aim his upB now?

Other
- KOs now have a firey graphic that plays on the person who KO'd the opponent
- Ray gun firing animations are slower (don't look like they combo into each other anymore)
- Blue Shells are added
- Franklin badges and some Namco items make appearances in press screenshots
- Palutena's Temple is literally huge it's like New Pork City sized if not bigger
- Battering item jabs are combos now (at least for Mario)
- POW Block forces the owner to jump when it's used, and also counts as a platform.
- Isabelle AT throws food, functioning like Chansey
- Yellow Devil will not hurt the person who delivered the finishing blow (and presumably the KOs from the explosion will belong to that player)
- Fennekin knows PK fire

 

[Chiroz]

Just a suggestion, if you want to make a good, accurate list try not to make assumptions and post them as facts.

For example:

How can you confirm no more tethers exist at all just because ZSS', Sheik's and Olimar's were removed. For all we know Z-Airs (Link, TLink, Samus) can still tether.

Also how do you know there is no hitstun cancel? The people playing in the video might just not be doing it to show off combos or trajectories.

The ledges part is also kind of unknown as in almost every video the players have aimed directly at the edge, not leaving much room between the edge and the end of the up special for us to measure if it is back to what is was before.



There are some other things in your list that might be uncertain, I didn't read the whole thing.

 

[MechaWave]

- No characters revealed so far have tethers. Can't believe nobody noticed that yet... every single one has been removed.

People have noticed. Link, Toon Link and possibly Samus have zairs, but they weren't demonstrated to tether, so it's still a possibility. But as for tether recoveries, you are right.

- Dash dance window is the entire dash animation

If you're talking about that Mario vs Olimar gif on Battlefield, it's not entirely a dash dance.

 

[[TSON]]

A good analysis will draw some conclusions, of course. I've looked at the footage a bunch of times and the only thing I'm not confident about is the stuff at a (?). I don't think it's necessary to wait until we have the game in our hands to test to draw any of these conclusions with relatively (read: like 99%) certainty.

The fact that there's no zairs/other tethers, especially. Every single attack tether is gone and there's no screenshots or gameplay afaik that shows zairs tethering. That's something that probably would have happened by now.

For the ledge thing, there's that Little Mac clip w/ WFT. In Brawl, that is definitely within reach.

Hitstun cancelling, we have real matches and we have tumble frame 1 interrupts in lots of clips. How would they consistently cancel tumble on the first frame without buffering it (which requires not being able to do it)?

If you're talking about that Mario vs Olimar gif on Battlefield, it's not entirely a dash dance.

There was a couple clips. One with Bowser, and one a looong time ago that I'll find later.

 

[MechaWave]

The fact that there's no zairs/other tethers, especially. Every single attack tether is gone and there's no screenshots or gameplay afaik that shows zairs tethering. That's something that probably would have happened by now.

Link was shown to have a zair, I don't remember which trailer it was, likely a character reveal.
Nevermind, I found it. Yeah, zairs haven't been shown yet.

There was a couple clips. One with Bowser, and one a looong time ago that I'll find later.

Oh, alright. I believe you, it's just that, that's where I noticed a possible dash dance the most so I was just assuming. xP

 

[Kef]

Would mind if we open an organized Gameplay discussion thread that's organized with observations from the direct by character or overall gameplay mechanics observations? We could use this type of setup:

"
Nintendo Direct Link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

[Character Pic][Timestamp]: Description. Observation.
[2:05]: Peach does a dash attack. This could be useful if...

(end of post) Contributions by: list of players.

"


I would be willing to organize it, seeing it's somewhat hard to keep track of all these observation threads (and posts in other websites like reddit). What do you guys think?

 

[Khao]

About Dash-Dancing...

It really just looks like you can turn around and stop faster than before, you can either visibly see the character stopping then start running again on the opposite direction, or just plainly see them turning around with an animation. This goes true for every clip I've seen that are posted as "proof" of Dash Dance returning.