Game Play and Technical Analysis

[ImaClubYou]

This games animation style seem to have a emphasis on "power" and "showboating." Notice all the intentional slow throwing animations just to show that Charizard can really throw Mario.

Let's hope that all the characters that get combo'd in the footage are at reasonably high percent because they seem to fly a little too far in every combo.

Unless Sakurai adds a lot of moves with set knock back. I don't know how I'd feel about that.

 

[Leonyx]

Smoke does not necessarily mean you're still in hitstun, it means you still have knockback.

I believe that's the theory we're trying to prove, so I figured we should investigate some. It sounds like someone is already on it though.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Bad news folks.

At 6:40 it looks like Bowser was able to cancel hitstun. Let's hope this gets changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

 

[KoRLumen]

Bad news folks.

At 6:40 it looks like Bowser was able to cancel hitstun. Let's hope this gets changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

He might not have been hit with too much knockback. I don't think he cancelled the hitstun - just the hitstun didn't last that long.

 

[Death Arcana]

i don't see a problem here

 

[ImaClubYou]

He might not have been hit with too much knockback. I don't think he cancelled the hitstun - just the hitstun didn't last that long.

That's what I'm hoping as well.

 

[Fuqua]

there is this idea going around that you can see how long hitstun lasts on the clouds that appear beneath the characters when they are in hitstun, if you were to believe that, the clouds disappeared before he airdodged which means he didn't cancel it. Regardless of what you believe i don't think he hitstun cancelled there, looked fine to me.

 

[Kef]

If the cloud trail=hitstun theory is correct (which seems to be the case), there is no problem here like everyone said above.

 

[DaDavid]

Hasn't the cloud trail always signified hit-stun? There's literally nothing in that video to be worried about either way. Pretty impossible to tell if any particular attack just deals less stun.

Plus this has come up in other topics, so it didn't need it's own.

 

[General Diddy]

If you pause at just the right time (about 6:41) you see Bowser tumbling in the air with the cloud trail gone, meaning hit stun is done based on that theory. If that's the case, there isn't any issue here.

 

[MechaWave]

Samus still has her same grab (can be seen at 5:30 in the newest direct). We don't know if it can still be used in the air and whether it tethers or not, but assuming they don't as fact is wrong. That list won't be taken seriously like that.

Well, obviously. That is what I was trying to say.

 

[Fuqua]

something minor but i think sonic cancels his taunt with a up special in the direct at 36:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

also interesting to note is that the Wii Fit Trainer can cancel her/his Sun Salutation charging move with a roll, i cant remember if samus or other characters with charging moves could do that. You can also see WFT doing combos with rolls at 29:47, of course fox could have avoided that but the roll speed and attacking out of roll speed have been increased which could make for some viable combos.

 

[Renji64]

I hope hitstun canceling is removed.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

something minor but i think sonic cancels his taunt with a up special in the direct at 36:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

also interesting to note is that the Wii Fit Trainer can cancel her/his Sun Salutation charging move with a roll, i cant remember if samus or other characters with charging moves could do that. You can also see WFT doing combos with rolls at 29:47, of course fox could have avoided that but the roll speed and attacking out of roll speed have been increased which could make for some viable combos.

Looking at it frame by frame, it just looks like he uses the trampoline right as it ends.

Some more things.

- Olimar has a new attack similar to Wario's f-tilt. At 5:13, Olimar winds-up a punch, as opposed to his new jabs where he just punches with no wind up.
- DK's up-b does nothing to Mega Man at 8:19. Megaman just takes the hits walks right through.
- Diddy's dash attack has been adjusted. At 9:52, he still carthweels but hit's with his feet first and then ends by slamming the ground with his hands. Right after you can also he his uptilt now covers much more space around him, showing off his increased flexibility.
- Bowsers fire breath doesn't cause any knockback or stun to Mario or Marth at 14:47.
- At 22:18, Samuses Super Missle is knocked away by Pit's new Upperdash Arm.

 

[[TSON]]

I believe that's the theory we're trying to prove, so I figured we should investigate some. It sounds like someone is already on it though.

I can tell you that with 100% confidence from my experience with the Brawl engine.

 

[freesubs]

I can tell you that with 100% confidence from my experience with the Brawl engine.

but earlier you said this:

k i just wanted somewhere to dump my observations from what we've seen so far so yeah i'll probably be updating this in the future
Mechanics
- No hitstun cancelling

Can you explain how you can tell there is no hitstun cancelling? You mean that you can't escape hitshun after a set number of frames like in Brawl right? That the hitstun duration is now solely based on a function of knockback?

 

[[TSON]]

Can you explain how you can tell there is no hitstun cancelling? You mean that you can escape hitshun after a set number of frames like in Brawl right? That the hitstun duration is now solely based on a function of knockback?

Hitstun duration has always been a function of knockback properties. It is not set arbitrarily. I remember from my work on Brawl- that damage is usually the biggest contributor to hitstun. If you crank damage up super high, yes it will increase KB, but the smoke may still end long before hitstun actually does. I can't recall actually if smoke happens for a pre-determined number of frames but it is very possible that smoke could end before your hitstun does or even after. When your character starts spinning clockwise instead of Z-axially (tumble) is when your hitstun has ended.

What I suspect is happening in gameplay footage is that they are buffering shield input during hitstun which is causing them to cancel AFTER the hitstun. There is no indication that they are able to cancel these attacks after a certain number of frames mid-hitstun a-la Brawl (aka I don't believe that they pushed the number of frames you have to wait up to an arbitrarily-set higher number).

It seriously looks to me as if cancelling it is gone completely, and the airdodge cancels that we are seeing are happening on the first frame or so of tumble, just from eye-balling and comparing to Brawl/Melee hitstun. This would likely mean that the player is mashing/pressing shield during hitstun and buffering the airdodge input so that it happens at the earliest actionable frame.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Hitstun duration has always been a function of knockback properties. It is not set arbitrarily. I remember from my work on Brawl- that damage is usually the biggest contributor to hitstun. If you crank damage up super high, yes it will increase KB, but the smoke may still end long before hitstun actually does. I can't recall actually if smoke happens for a pre-determined number of frames but it is very possible that smoke could end before your hitstun does or even after. When your character starts spinning clockwise instead of Z-axially (tumble) is when your hitstun has ended.

What I suspect is happening in gameplay footage is that they are buffering shield input during hitstun which is causing them to cancel AFTER the hitstun. There is no indication that they are able to cancel these attacks after a certain number of frames mid-hitstun a-la Brawl (aka I don't believe that they pushed the number of frames you have to wait up to an arbitrarily-set higher number).

It seriously looks to me as if cancelling it is gone completely, and the airdodge cancels that we are seeing are happening on the first frame or so of tumble, just from eye-balling and comparing to Brawl/Melee hitstun. This would likely mean that the player is mashing/pressing shield during hitstun and buffering the airdodge input so that it happens at the earliest actionable frame.

Is there any way we can get some Brawl and Melee footage for comparison of the time that the opponent airdodges?

 

[[TSON]]

Is there any way we can get some Brawl and Melee footage for comparison of the time that the opponent airdodges?

This wouldn't really be helpful, honestly. You can tell from the footage that they are not airdodging out in like 10 frames a-la Brawl, and in Melee you can't airdodge even after hitstun is over unless you wiggle the stick which takes a couple of frames.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

This wouldn't really be helpful, honestly. You can tell from the footage that they are not airdodging out in like 10 frames a-la Brawl, and in Melee you can't airdodge even after hitstun is over unless you wiggle the stick which takes a couple of frames.

Watching a hitstun vid for brawl at .25x speed, I can't really tell the difference in airdodging after hitstun between brawl and smash 4

 

[[TSON]]

Watching a hitstun vid for brawl at .25x speed, I can't really tell the difference in airdodging after hitstun between brawl and smash 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx3ixgO_i8o

This should make it super obvious, even though these are high knockback moves. It's even worse with weaker ones.

 

[DakotaBonez]

It also existed in brawl.

...what also existed in brawl?

 

[Alondite]

I really hope the hitstun smoke trail theory is true, because visually communicating things intuitively is fantastic design and makes it less of a guessing game. That's Nintendo's Design 101; they've always been the best at doing things like that. If that theory does hold true, there seems to be plenty of hitstun for a legitimate combo game.

I actually like the combination and the longer hitlag and apparently hitstun. I don't like the idea of video games as stressing physical skills as much, because that's not what they're about. Longer hitstun favors correct DI rather than reaction time. I believe that the former is far better for gameplay and doesn't throw up any physical dexterity barriers, which is a good thing in my eyes.

I also hope that it doesn't have a Melee-esque dash-dance. I'm OK with foxtrots and being able to quickly reverse direction at the end of one, but Melee dash-dancing eliminates a large part of "meaningful decision-making" element because it's literally no risk because you can change direction on a dime to avoid attacks. If you're locked into the initial dash frames longer, than dashing posses an inherent risk and requires more consideration, which is good for the mental game.

On an unrelated note, did anyone see how little endlag there was on Charizard's bthrow? Scary.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Anybody notice they took out 'random' moves like DDD's Dees and Olimar's random Pikmin?

Please get rid of G&W random hammer!

 

[MangoTwist]

Is it me or does the 3ds version seem more floaty than the Wii U version? Or am I just crazy?

Nope. Im thinking the same thing.

 

[freesubs]

Hitstun duration has always been a function of knockback properties. It is not set arbitrarily. I remember from my work on Brawl- that damage is usually the biggest contributor to hitstun. If you crank damage up super high, yes it will increase KB, but the smoke may still end long before hitstun actually does. I can't recall actually if smoke happens for a pre-determined number of frames but it is very possible that smoke could end before your hitstun does or even after. When your character starts spinning clockwise instead of Z-axially (tumble) is when your hitstun has ended.

What I suspect is happening in gameplay footage is that they are buffering shield input during hitstun which is causing them to cancel AFTER the hitstun. There is no indication that they are able to cancel these attacks after a certain number of frames mid-hitstun a-la Brawl (aka I don't believe that they pushed the number of frames you have to wait up to an arbitrarily-set higher number).

It seriously looks to me as if cancelling it is gone completely, and the airdodge cancels that we are seeing are happening on the first frame or so of tumble, just from eye-balling and comparing to Brawl/Melee hitstun. This would likely mean that the player is mashing/pressing shield during hitstun and buffering the airdodge input so that it happens at the earliest actionable frame.

Thank you for the explanation! Very well written. It also looks to me like the players were airdodging as soon as they could, which appeared to be after the hitstun

Here's to hoping that momentum cancelling is completely gone in this iteration.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Nope. Im thinking the same thing.

I'm hoping it has something to do with footage being captured off of a 3ds instead of an hdmi connection. It would be weird and a waste of resources for the physics engines of the two versions to be different

 

[Leonyx]

Hitstun duration has always been a function of knockback properties. It is not set arbitrarily. I remember from my work on Brawl- that damage is usually the biggest contributor to hitstun. If you crank damage up super high, yes it will increase KB, but the smoke may still end long before hitstun actually does. I can't recall actually if smoke happens for a pre-determined number of frames but it is very possible that smoke could end before your hitstun does or even after. When your character starts spinning clockwise instead of Z-axially (tumble) is when your hitstun has ended.

What I suspect is happening in gameplay footage is that they are buffering shield input during hitstun which is causing them to cancel AFTER the hitstun. There is no indication that they are able to cancel these attacks after a certain number of frames mid-hitstun a-la Brawl (aka I don't believe that they pushed the number of frames you have to wait up to an arbitrarily-set higher number).

It seriously looks to me as if cancelling it is gone completely, and the airdodge cancels that we are seeing are happening on the first frame or so of tumble, just from eye-balling and comparing to Brawl/Melee hitstun. This would likely mean that the player is mashing/pressing shield during hitstun and buffering the airdodge input so that it happens at the earliest actionable frame.

Alright, I think I understand this (thank you for explaining it), but how can you be so sure that the smoke works the same as it does in Brawl? Also, if you were not to cancel the knockback in Brawl, would the hitstun end when the knockback ended? Is that what it looks like in the new game?

 

[greenluigiman2]

Please get rid of G&W random hammer!

What would you change it to?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

something minor but i think sonic cancels his taunt with a up special in the direct at 36:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

also interesting to note is that the Wii Fit Trainer can cancel her/his Sun Salutation charging move with a roll, i cant remember if samus or other characters with charging moves could do that. You can also see WFT doing combos with rolls at 29:47, of course fox could have avoided that but the roll speed and attacking out of roll speed have been increased which could make for some viable combos.

Samus and Lucario can do that with their charge attacks,

I was impressed by the Sun Salutation charge bait into shield grab followed by deep breathing, dash attack read into sun salutation shot. It was actually one of the smarter things I have seen given the amount of talent available from the players.

 

[DakotaBonez]

What would you change it to?

Although there is a huge moveset potential for G&W, I wasn't suggesting that the hammer be replaced, just that I'd prefer if the numbers came out in a preset order like 9,1,8,2,7,3,6,4,5.
I cant think of anything that needs to be added to G&W's moveset, it pretty much covers every generic game and watch game that didn't have an iconic character.

 

[[TSON]]

Alright, I think I understand this (thank you for explaining it), but how can you be so sure that the smoke works the same as it does in Brawl?

Of course, you can't really guarantee that. BUT the reeling -> tumble transition has happened in every Smash game. It's a big visual indicator, I doubt they would change that randomly in SSB4. Smoke has never really meant anything so I have no idea why we're still looking to that.

Also, if you were not to cancel the knockback in Brawl, would the hitstun end when the knockback ended? Is that what it looks like in the new game?

It kinda looks like that, but not exactly. See, there's a game-specific "percentage" multiplier that comes into play. This number IIRC is 0.4x in Brawl/Melee, meaning a move that does 4000 units of knockback will do 400 frames of hitstun. Most characters won't fully decelerate from that much knockback that fast.

 

[RelaxAlax]

I'm making a video on this, but since it's relevant, I'll share my findings

There is hitstun. You can see this with a trail of smoke behind a fighter after they've been hit. This is present in many scenes (Mario and Link on jungle japes, Peach and Fox on Spirit Train, Mario and Sonic on Halberd). When the smoke finishes, this means characters are in control again, thus, on the first frame, they induce an air dodge. Therefore, there is no hitstun cancelling. Atleast from what I can see.

EDIT actually, from the link you've posted, you can see it right at the start with Fox.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

I'm making a video on this, but since it's relevant, I'll share my findings

There is hitstun. You can see this with a trail of smoke behind a fighter after they've been hit. This is present in many scenes (Mario and Link on jungle japes, Peach and Fox on Spirit Train, Mario and Sonic on Halberd). When the smoke finishes, this means characters are in control again, thus, on the first frame, they induce an air dodge. Therefore, there is no hitstun cancelling. Atleast from what I can see.

EDIT actually, from the link you've posted, you can see it right at the start with Fox.

Are we positive the smoke trails are hitstun indicators?

 

[ImaClubYou]

Are we positive the smoke trails are hitstun indicators?

Exactly. This is just a theory, as everyone stated. You can't really conclude hitstun so confidently because of an obscure aesthetic animation called a "smoke trail."

It may have been the case in Brawl but IIRC, every new Smash is built from the ground up instead of being remade with the same engine.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Well, all we know is out of every clip, characters do not air dodge while the smoke trail is behind them. We can make a strong induction based on what we've seen that this is the case, but ofcourse nothing's set in stone. It is just a theory. But it's supported.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Well, all we know is out of every clip, characters do not air dodge while the smoke trail is behind them. We can make a strong induction based on what we've seen that this is the case, but ofcourse nothing's set in stone. It is just a theory. But it's supported.

Personally, I like the theory becuse it opens up definitve training for combos visually. I was just being devil's advocate

 

[ImaClubYou]

I'd like to believe everything here but the skill level of our fellow play testers is something to be desired, lmao. I swear forward tilt was executed 1 million times.

 

[RelaxAlax]

And fox was using that side b religiously ....

 

[Chimera]

Looking at it frame by frame, it just looks like he uses the trampoline right as it ends.

Some more things.

- Olimar has a new attack similar to Wario's f-tilt. At 5:13, Olimar winds-up a punch, as opposed to his new jabs where he just punches with no wind up.
- DK's up-b does nothing to Mega Man at 8:19. Megaman just takes the hits walks right through.
- Diddy's dash attack has been adjusted. At 9:52, he still carthweels but hit's with his feet first and then ends by slamming the ground with his hands. Right after you can also he his uptilt now covers much more space around him, showing off his increased flexibility.
- Bowsers fire breath doesn't cause any knockback or stun to Mario or Marth at 14:47.
- At 22:18, Samuses Super Missle is knocked away by Pit's new Upperdash Arm.

I wonder if some of these are related to custom movesets.