Game Play and Technical Analysis

[LancerStaff]

it was apparent projectiles can be dealt with in new ways when sakurai showed pit slicing samus' missile in half.

You could cancel out projectiles with attacks since 64...

 

[ChikoLad]

You could cancel out projectiles with attacks since 64...

Note his use of the phrase "in new ways".

 

[LancerStaff]

Note his use of the phrase "in new ways".

A mechanic that's been around since 64 is new?

 

[ChikoLad]

A mechanic that's been around since 64 is new?

No, what he's saying is that said mechanic is being implemented in new ways.

A similar instance is Little Mac's side smash being three moves in one - this is actually just a more advanced implementation of an already existing mechanic, where you could change the angle of some side Smashes/side tilts.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, what he's saying is that said mechanic is being implemented in new ways.

A similar instance is Little Mac's side smash being three moves in one - this is actually just a more advanced implementation of an already existing mechanic, where you could change the angle of some side Smashes/side tilts.

Er, he said that he knew that projectiles could be handled differently when he first saw the pic of the old mechanic...

 

[Xermo]

Er, he said that he knew that projectiles could be handled differently when he first saw the pic of the old mechanic...

It's not necessarily the same as the standard projectile canceling mechanic, as that method usually involves clanking to negate the projectile (unless it's an aerial, in which case it usually outright out-prioritizes the projectile). In the case I'm referring to, Pit's hitbox still continues after making contact with a projectile, meaning that projectiles as a whole can be approached differently if you can simply time an attack, destroy the projectile and connect with your opponent; further supported by the Direct footage of Pit knocking away the missile while delivering an attack. "In new ways" as I put it before.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's not necessarily the same as the standard projectile canceling mechanic, as that method usually involves clanking to negate the projectile (unless it's an aerial, in which case it usually outright out-prioritizes the projectile). In the case I'm referring to, Pit's hitbox still continues after making contact with a projectile, meaning that projectiles as a whole can be approached differently if you can simply time an attack, destroy the projectile and connect with your opponent; further supported by the Direct footage of Pit knocking away the missile while delivering an attack. "In new ways" as I put it before.

Don't really see how one could decipher all of that from that pic...

 

[RODO]

Er, he said that he knew that projectiles could be handled differently when he first saw the pic of the old mechanic...

Some moves can reflect projectiles and others can go through projectiles.

 

[NobleClamtasm]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but you can very clearly see fast falling in action.
Skip to the time 8:11 in the Smash Direct and take a look at Pikachu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs7t#t=8m11s
You'll see that a tiny little star flashes before he fast falls through the platform. The tiny little star is actually a visual indicator for fast falling, and was present in the original Smash 64 but was not in Melee or Brawl. I know this isn't anything huge, but it's nice to see them bringing this little detail back.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but you can very clearly see fast falling in action.
Skip to the time 8:11 in the Smash Direct and take a look at Pikachu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs7t#t=8m11s
You'll see that a tiny little star flashes before he fast falls through the platform. The tiny little star is actually a visual indicator for fast falling, and was present in the original Smash 64 but was not in Melee or Brawl. I know this isn't anything huge, but it's nice to see them bringing this little detail back.

Your link won't work for me.

 

[DaDavid]

Not sure if this is a place to mention it since it's character specific, but Mega Man's pellets flinched T.Link and Fox when Sakurai was talking about the matchmaking that would be happening in the background (around 14-15 minutes into the Direct) though they did not cause Bowser to flinch in the Little Mac reveal trailer.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Some new picture's released, about 200+, and one features Link using his "zair," obviously airborne.

Can't find the picture but if someone else does that's cool.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This is the pic OP's talking about:

 

[egaddmario]

Zairs are back, but until we see anyone actually hanging on the ledge it's still unconfirmed if you ask me

 

[Cheezey Bites]

Does the edge-lock-on seems to be more forgiving, or am I misremembering?

 

[ImaClubYou]

Yush, that's it.

And if it's important to anyone, Marth was once again shipped with another character. That being ZSS XD.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Not sure if this is a place to mention it since it's character specific, but Mega Man's pellets flinched T.Link and Fox when Sakurai was talking about the matchmaking that would be happening in the background (around 14-15 minutes into the Direct) though they did not cause Bowser to flinch in the Little Mac reveal trailer.

While you could be onto something like bulkier characters being harder to flinch, it's probably just been seen as ineffective sine then, so they beefed it up. Personally, it just shows how much care Sakurai is actually taking to make this game well-balanced.

 

[OptimistNic]

I'm not sure this relates to game mechanics but I remember Sakurai made this statement about balancing in an interview with Famitsu:

“Rather than directly weakening an attack’s advantageous parts, we’re putting effort into keeping them strong, while adding other weaknesses to them, like giving the attacks punishable openings, or weakening the character’s mobility or recovery rate. We’re making comprehensive adjustments to characters, even for parts that might seem completely irrelevant.”

 

[BigHairyFart]

I'm not sure this relates to game mechanics but I remember Sakurai made this statement about balancing in an interview with Famitsu:

“Rather than directly weakening an attack’s advantageous parts, we’re putting effort into keeping them strong, while adding other weaknesses to them, like giving the attacks punishable openings, or weakening the character’s mobility or recovery rate. We’re making comprehensive adjustments to characters, even for parts that might seem completely irrelevant.”

So he's basically saying that he's not just dialing down on damage/knockback on overpowered moves, but making it harder/more rewarding for a skilled player to successfully perform said move.

 

[DaDavid]

Definitely seems like what he's been doing. I mean all the vet updates were nerfs or buffs, but not in the simple vein of making a move stronger or weaker. Olimar in particular got some creative tweaks.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

The fact that there's no zairs/other tethers, especially. Every single attack tether is gone and there's no screenshots or gameplay afaik that shows zairs tethering. That's something that probably would have happened by now.

A photo was released today that shows Link gunning for either Yoshi or an edge with his Brawl zair. https://flic.kr/p/naBUSy

I'm thinking that it's prioritized for the ledge as it was in Brawl.

 

[Fuqua]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but you can very clearly see fast falling in action.
Skip to the time 8:11 in the Smash Direct and take a look at Pikachu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs7t#t=8m11s
You'll see that a tiny little star flashes before he fast falls through the platform. The tiny little star is actually a visual indicator for fast falling, and was present in the original Smash 64 but was not in Melee or Brawl. I know this isn't anything huge, but it's nice to see them bringing this little detail back.

Very nice catch! You can also see mario fast fall around 9:50 in the wii u version. These visual indicators for various gameplay elements (theres also the clouds for hitstun) make me think that sakurai really thought about the gameplay in smash 4, which is probably a good thing for the competitive community.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Zairs are back, but until we see anyone actually hanging on the ledge it's still unconfirmed if you ask me

It is unconfirmed but his Zair is also angled right at the edge.

Yush, that's it.

And if it's important to anyone, Marth was once again shipped

No thanks

 

[Arcadenik]

This is the pic OP's talking about:

If only that picture was a picture of Yoshi using tongue tether recovery...

 

[Jellyfish4102]

A photo was released today that shows Link gunning for either Yoshi or an edge with his Brawl zair. https://flic.kr/p/naBUSy

I'm thinking that it's prioritized for the ledge as it was in Brawl.

This pic is very interesting. It appears to show Link grappling to an occupied ledge. This is a major buff over Brawl's grapples. It's somewhat similar to Project M.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

This pic is very interesting. It appears to show Link grappling to an occupied ledge. This is a major buff over Brawl's grapples. It's somewhat similar to Project M.

There's an apparently new ledge-popping mechanic that hasn't been shown in much detail yet. Apparently you can steal ledges from people now, which will throw them out behind you. Not sure how it works or what it means for the game.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

There's an apparently new ledge-popping mechanic that hasn't been shown in much detail yet. Apparently you can steal ledges from people now, which will throw them out behind you. Not sure how it works or what it means for the game.

Yeah I saw that pic but it was very vague.

 

[Mamp]

This pic is very interesting. It appears to show Link grappling to an occupied ledge. This is a major buff over Brawl's grapples. It's somewhat similar to Project M.

However, we don't know if Link is going to succeed in grappling the ledge, it's possible that Yoshi holding it is going to block his grapple.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I think this is the first time we've seen Link's Clawshot and tether recoveries in general. Also, the new ledge mechanics is the one thing about Smash 4 that intrigues me more than anything else, along with how tethers function in tandem to that.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

However, we don't know if Link is going to succeed in grappling the ledge, it's possible that Yoshi holding it is going to block his grapple.

Perhaps if Yoshi doesn't have invincibility then Yoshi would be pulled off but if he does then Link would drop after grappling to him (not in free fall).

 

[[TSON]]

A photo was released today that shows Link gunning for either Yoshi or an edge with his Brawl zair. https://flic.kr/p/naBUSy

I'm thinking that it's prioritized for the ledge as it was in Brawl.

Yoshi's already grabbed the edge, so it wouldn't home in (assuming it was still Brawl-style). To me it looks like just a normal zair before the second hit comes out. Keep in mind that Link is falling and that's why the hookshot is raised.

 

[Chiroz]

Yoshi's already grabbed the edge, so it wouldn't home in (assuming it was still Brawl-style). To me it looks like just a normal zair before the second hit comes out. Keep in mind that Link is falling and that's why the hookshot is raised.

What's more interesting is the fact that they are back, when you claimed they were out 100% certain and there was no way they were coming back and that I was wrong when I told you you shouldn't assume things just because they are missing. See now how your list isn't at all accurate?

Also, in Brawl/Melee Z-Airs stay perfectly straight even when you are falling. Either they changed that in Smash 4 or the Hook is aiming at the edge (most probable). Remember that now being at the edge means nothing as people can bump you from it if your invincibility is gone.

 

[RODO]

Yoshi's already grabbed the edge, so it wouldn't home in (assuming it was still Brawl-style). To me it looks like just a normal zair before the second hit comes out. Keep in mind that Link is falling and that's why the hookshot is raised.

That's not how it worked in Brawl. It's locked on to the ledge, trust me.

 

[[TSON]]

What's more interesting is the fact that they are back, when you claimed they were out 100% certain and there was no way they were coming back and that I was wrong when I told you you shouldn't assume things just because they are missing. See now how your list isn't at all accurate?

I appreciate the attempt at being rude as hell, & trying to put me on blast for putting more effort into analyzing and making a list than most... but you need to go back and re-read my post. I have clarified and said tethers haven't had any screenshots of homing to the edge. There were already screenshots of Link and/or Samus's zair, as people pointed out before. And even still, assuming thing(s) does not make my entire list inaccurate, it's a simple edit and probably 3 seconds of my time to remove this one line. There's even a disclaimer a post away where I said the ones with a (?) I'm still unsure about.

From 4 years of work on Brawl/Melee hacking I have a better grasp on a lot of things, including how things work internally and why things happen; from my work on Super Smash Flash 2 I have furthered my knowledge on how the Smash Bros. engine works... I can offer a perspective that not many others can, and my eye is trained and can notice some things that not many others can. You're more than welcome to add me to your ignore list rather than attempting (and failing) to publicly chastise me and discredit my work, if I'm annoying you by drawing a conclusion with my knowledge thus far, and then posting something with a question mark until proven/disproven. Again, I must stress, the majority of my list, including the conclusions (which includes the removal of hitstun cancelling) are still accurate even if this isn't.

I hope that in the future if you can disprove something that I've found, you'll do so without acting like I'm completely stupid for ever believing that.

Also, in Brawl/Melee Z-Airs stay perfectly straight even when you are falling. Either they changed that in Smash 4 or the Hook is aiming at the edge (most probable). Remember that now being at the edge means nothing as people can bump you from it if your invincibility is gone.

This pose doesn't exist in Brawl. Tethers curve up onto each other when you're falling since they're affected by gravity/wind resistance like any other article/prop with that attribute turned on (hair, etc.). When this is happening, Link's arm stays straight. When a zair is homing to the ledge it looks a bit closer to this screenshot, but Link's arm is still straight.
I mean, it's a simple animation tweak to move his arm, and another simple animation tweak to allow the article to be more affected by air resistance... so either are certainly possible by all means. I'm starting to think you might be right and that the arm is moved for the tether fail animation, though.

 

[Chiroz]

I appreciate the attempt at being rude as hell, & trying to put me on blast for putting more effort into analyzing and making a list than most... but you need to go back and re-read my post. I have clarified and said tethers haven't had any screenshots of homing to the edge. There were already screenshots of Link and/or Samus's zair, as people pointed out before. And even still, assuming thing(s) does not make my entire list inaccurate, it's a simple edit and probably 3 seconds of my time to remove this one line. There's even a disclaimer a post away where I said the ones with a (?) I'm still unsure about.

From 4 years of work on Brawl/Melee hacking I have a better grasp on a lot of things, including how things work internally and why things happen; from my work on Super Smash Flash 2 I have furthered my knowledge on how the Smash Bros. engine works... I can offer a perspective that not many others can, and my eye is trained and can notice some things that not many others can. You're more than welcome to add me to your ignore list rather than attempting (and failing) to publicly chastise me and discredit my work, if I'm annoying you by drawing a conclusion with my knowledge thus far, and then posting something with a question mark until proven/disproven. Again, I must stress, the majority of my list, including the conclusions (which includes the removal of hitstun cancelling) are still accurate even if this isn't.

I hope that in the future if you can disprove something that I've found, you'll do so without acting like I'm completely stupid for ever believing that.


This pose doesn't exist in Brawl. Tethers curve up onto each other when you're falling since they're affected by gravity/wind resistance like any other article/prop with that attribute turned on (hair, etc.). When this is happening, Link's arm stays straight. When a zair is homing to the ledge it looks a bit closer to this screenshot, but Link's arm is still straight.
I mean, it's a simple animation tweak to move his arm, and another simple animation tweak to allow the article to be more affected by air resistance... so either are certainly possible by all means. I'm starting to think you might be right and that the arm is moved for the tether fail animation, though.

First: You did not have a simple edit or had a (?) next to that one line. You claimed it was a fact and that it was 100% accurate.

I did try to tell you your list was inaccurate in a nice and "correct" way and you responded with the exact same thing you responded now, you told me your experience as a modder made you correct and that you were 100% certain they weren't back. You implied (even though you didn't say) that I was a fool for telling you. I told you to at least not post it as a fact and quote it as an assumption (so that it was clear to the reader that that was speculation) to which you replied that it wasn't an assumption, that you were SURE they weren't back. I was also the first one to post a picture of a Z-Air from the direct.

And yes, this does make your list inaccurate and your list does need to be discredited because there are many things that are assumptions and you are claiming them to be fact, even if you can change them later on then what is the point of the list in the first place? I thought the list was to understand the game better and share that information with people who might not understand what you do, not to guess at what you think might be in the game and claim everything is true and trick the people who know less into believing things that aren't true.

I am sorry for being rude, but I tried being nice and I disliked how you disclaimed false information as true and then you think you are superior to others because you "mod".



Also modding doesn't give you clairyvoyance. You keep claiming that you "can give better insight than most" because you know the Brawl engine and then claim things completely impossible to know. Literally its like me saying right now: Wario won't come back, I am 100% sure, we haven't seen a single picture of him. Then when someone says thats an assumption I tell them: "I understand Brawl much more than you because I have been in the modding community for 4 years, I know what I am talking about, I am sure he isn't back"

See how that makes no sense?





As for the second part:

If they wanted the tether to be affected by wind, it wouldn't look like that. That tether is perfectly diagonal, which isn't how it would end up, it would mostly end up curved in the middle (Brawl had this by the way, the Z-Air would curve slightly upwards, but it would still look straight and not diagonal).

 

[Fuqua]

Not very interesting but the seemingly OP down smash from Megaman that you can see in this video around 1:18 seems to have been addressed as you can see here around 28:50.

It doesn't suck you in and continuously damages you as it did before.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Not very interesting but the seemingly OP down smash from Megaman that you can see in this video around 1:18 seems to have been addressed as you can see here around 28:50.

It doesn't suck you in and continuously damages you as it did before.

You have to consider that they are playing like amateurs and it doesn't look like the journalist made any attempt to DI out of it. The move also appears to deals less knock-back than Mega Man's stand-up attack even though the D-Smash is at a higher percentage. But yeah, in competitive play it probably could have been a centralizing major technique for the character, kind of like Pikachu's D-Smash. It looks like it has a longer end lag and doesn't have a vacuum effect, which I would consider an improvement.

 

[Xermo]

It doesn't suck you in and continuously damages you as it did before.

It never sucked in. The mario player simply had horrible DI and went through both ends of the smash attack.

 

[[TSON]]

First: You did not have a simple edit or had a (?) next to that one line. You claimed it was a fact and that it was 100% accurate.

I'm saying it would be a simple edit to correct since/if it was disproven. Also, as I said in my last post, in a future post after the original list, I clarified:

A good analysis will draw some conclusions, of course. I've looked at the footage a bunch of times and the only thing I'm not confident about is the stuff at a (?). I don't think it's necessary to wait until we have the game in our hands to test to draw any of these conclusions with relatively (read: like 99%) certainty.

The fact that there's no zairs/other tethers, especially. Every single attack tether is gone and there's no screenshots or gameplay afaik that shows zairs tethering. That's something that probably would have happened by now.

----------------------------------

I did try to tell you your list was inaccurate in a nice and "correct" way and you responded with the exact same thing you responded now, you told me your experience as a modder made you correct and that you were 100% certain they weren't back. You implied (even though you didn't say) that I was a fool for telling you. I told you to at least not post it as a fact and quote it as an assumption (so that it was clear to the reader that that was speculation) to which you replied that it wasn't an assumption, that you were SURE they weren't back. I was also the first one to post a picture of a Z-Air from the direct.

Ignoring that you misunderstood (probably my mistake, it's worded weirdly) my post or aren't remembering it correctly, I have never claimed that my being a PSA/Brawl/Melee hack programmer has made me 100% correct. I'm saying it allows me to catch some things that other people might not be able to. The point of that post was to share with everyone else what I was seeing. The original title of my thread was something like "Less Obvious Things" before it got merged. Again, may I stress that I wanted to share what I was thinking as I watched it, and the things I noticed.

And yes, this does make your list inaccurate and your list does need to be discredited because there are many things that are assumptions and you are claiming them to be fact

Obviously I'm not a machine, but my list is good and true. Pick your battles. I've already said that I'll be editing it if my findings are disproven. Just to make you happy I'll even put a (?) on it for now.

even if you can change them later on then what is the point of the list in the first place? I thought the list was to understand the game better and share that information with people who might not understand what you do, not to guess at what you think might be in the game and claim everything is true and trick the people who know less into believing things that aren't true.

Excuse me? Me, and I quote, wanting to "dump my observations" into a thread for people to check out, discuss, and fact check along with me is taking blind guesses now? Everything I listed came from examining the video(s) as well as deeply studying the screenshots and Miiverse posts we've had so far, paired with my experiences. Excuse my peasant ass for not putting a (?) next to tethers not being in, and then saying in a later post that it seemed like a 99% chance that it was that way. How dare I not take that 1% into account.

I am sorry for being rude, but I tried being nice and I disliked how you disclaimed false information as true and then you think you are superior to others because you "mod".
Also modding doesn't give you clairyvoyance. You keep claiming that you "can give better insight than most" because you know the Brawl engine and then claim things completely impossible to know. Literally its like me saying right now: Wario won't come back, I am 100% sure, we haven't seen a single picture of him. Then when someone says thats an assumption I tell them: "I understand Brawl much more than you because I have been in the modding community for 4 years, I know what I am talking about, I am sure he isn't back"

See how that makes no sense?

No, you really aren't. You can't apologize for attacking someone and then continue attacking them in the same breath. Literally are u ok.

I am in no way claiming I'm superior to someone else because I know how Smash games work internally. Please read my posts more carefully, I have no intention to even argue this. I'm not disputing that I can't predict the future with 100% certainty, either. I'm saying I can notice stuff that others might not, and thus I want to share that knowledge and my experiences with others. I explained clearly and concisely why momentum cancelling didn't seem to be returning. I explained clearly and concisely why smoke doesn't necessarily have to do with hitstun. I can make estimated guesses about the future with relatively good certainty, and I will continue doing so. I will also continue explaining clearly and concisely everything else that I have noticed if asked, and clarify things for people with questions in this section, because that's what I want to do with the information that I am familiar with. If your goal is to discredit me, you're not going to be able to.

I am giving information that falls into the stuff that I know, not stuff that is completely unrelated. This is more comparable to an athlete saying that a pair of cleats has bad traction in the mud, and thus the same cleats in a different color and a slightly different toe probably (and I quote, "has like a 99% chance") would as well. He would know that from experience, without even trying them on, from wearing cleats for years.

As for the second part:

If they wanted the tether to be affected by wind, it wouldn't look like that. That tether is perfectly diagonal, which isn't how it would end up, it would mostly end up curved in the middle (Brawl had this by the way, the Z-Air would curve slightly upwards, but it would still look straight and not diagonal).

These are chain links tho. The bend in Brawl was kinda unrealistic, and would be even more unrealistic with the SSB4 arm.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

@[TSON]

Y'know I understand that you are knowledgable about this stuff, but you really don't have to be so condenscending. I can get if this was about frame data, but this is something that comes from basic observation during game play. You said you aren't trying to act superior, but waving your status around like a banner isn't exactly humbling and speaks the opposite of your intent.

I honestly don't know what the deal is with the teather, but it does seem like a newish mechanic considering that it's at an angle. Personally, I was a fan of the Melee teather.