Game Play and Technical Analysis

[Untouch]

Here's the dodging into a lagless landing.
Both are mario though, the video is really short so there isn't much.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

What are we supposed to see in the second GIF? In the first he does a Bair RIGHT NEXT to the ground, there's no way the active frames ended before landing so it was indeed probably some sort of auto-cancel or bair is just completely lagless and epic.

Second one he actually finishes the move before landing... Then looks laggier than before.

 

[Shaya]

In Brawl/Melee, auto cancels of an aerial are generally available just before the hitbox out.

So if he baired and landed before the hitbox came out, he could've had normal landing lag from it still.
To me though it looked like he almost somehow landed with a dash attack animation that was nearly lagless, heh.

 

[ibmutt]

I think the normal landing lag is two frames like I found in Brawl. Luckily, someone recorded some E3 footage at 60 fps linked here. Watch the video below with LM falling frame by frame. Little Mac is unclear so look for P4 icon if you can't find him. Plus, he can have afterimages.

As you can see LM is free falling and lands at 0:04. I say the landing animation has been interrupted on 0:06 by LM turning around. If so the landing animation was interrupted on count three if you count from one where LM lands. Technically, that means the normal landing animation can be interrupted on its third frame and any frame afterwards, not that the normal landing landing animation can't be interrupted on its second frame. Because the normal landing lag could be equivalent to Brawl's, I'm biased towards it being interrupt able on frame three where frame one is at 0:04.

I don't think I can argue much further than that without much writing. I've made a guide which I may post later so what I actually did to find this is repeatable.

I found that shielding now has a one frame of start up lag in which a character stands. The landing lag from empty fast fall jumps is probably six like Brawl. I could only find someone interrupting fast fall landing lag on frame 8 though.

 

[Nintymat]

Don't know if you guys had seen this/if it has been posted before. But what do you all think of this?

http://www.gfycat.com/SmoothAstonishingJunco#?format=gif

(Mario combo on Link)

Really interesting thread everyone, keep it up, i've enjoyed reading through.

 

[Shariq]

Don't know if you guys had seen this/if it has been posted before. But what do you all think of this?

http://www.gfycat.com/SmoothAstonishingJunco#?format=gif

(Mario combo on Link)

Really interesting thread everyone, keep it up, i've enjoyed reading through.

Cool. I was a bit upset when I saw the first impressions for the game. But things are looking better now. I just hope they make some tweaks here and there. Like reduce the lag from aerial moves, fix up the knock back, make dash dancing more easier. These are the main complaints. If Nintendo and Sakurai are actually listening to fan feedback like many have said they are, then these problems should be addressed. Man I can't wait

EDIT: Someone should make a compilation video of all the combos that are found in the many videos that we now have of the game.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Based on how all of the characters have been changed, this game has become way more ground-based with a focus on footsies.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

EDIT: Someone should make a compilation video of all the combos that are found in the many videos that we now have of the game.

Well, I did, but it only contained 5 clips and was more just to prove a point that there were combos in the game rather than actually chronicle every one we can find. (Not that I have found more than 5 clips anyway lol. Every time I see a good combo when I slow down the footage it turns out that someone gets out of hitstun. )

 

[Shariq]

Well, I did, but it only contained 5 clips and was more just to prove a point that there were combos in the game rather than actually chronicle every one we can find. (Not that I have found more than 5 clips anyway lol. Every time I see a good combo when I slow down the footage it turns out that someone gets out of hitstun. )

Well did you upload the video though?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Well did you upload the video though?

Yep, here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtwJGVq21Q. Gotta say though, the one PP did against Justin is the most legit thing I have seen so far. No arguing against that one.

 

[Nintymat]

Yep, here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtwJGVq21Q. Gotta say though, the one PP did against Justin is the most legit thing I have seen so far. No arguing against that one.

The Mario combo on Wii Fit Trainer isn't a true combo :/

 

[Shariq]

Yep, here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtwJGVq21Q. Gotta say though, the one PP did against Justin is the most legit thing I have seen so far. No arguing against that one.

Unfortunately most of them look as if they are possible to escape.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Unfortunately most of them look as if they are possible to escape.

It's impossible to say for sure but there isn't a single "combo" in that video that doesn't look like it couldn't have been escaped by a buffered airdodge, at least to me. Even the PP one, the dust trail on Little Mac has obviously ended before each subsequent hit.

 

[2ndComing]

Mii Brawler taunt cancels at the beginning, after Sakurai says they're "almost not even Miis anymore". You can see him start the taunt then dash out of it.

that wasn't a taunt, that was his stance animation like how Mario adjusts his hat or Luigi pulls his nose

Landing lag is still definitely present - notice what occurs with Sonic right before Mario makes that jump. Extreme landing lag on his dair - http://www.gfycat.com/MaleFirmIndusriverdolphin

that gif has no importance to me other than the fact that Sakurai did the most hilarious taunt in Smash history at the beginning of the match for no damn reason and then goes on to win the game

If this ends up being true my sorrow is unmatched.

Anyway, did anyone notice Olimar's Usmash has a different animation now? It spins (I think) like his Uair.

PPMD did great with Fox, and he seemed to be learning how to use him while he was playing. Look at him fight the People's Challenger

 

[RODO]

PPMD did great with Fox, and he seemed to be learning how to use him while he was playing. Look at him fight the People's Challenger

Be careful about double (or in this case triple) posting. Mods hate that for some reason.

 

[2ndComing]

Be careful about double (or in this case triple) posting. Mods hate that for some reason.

I know, at most that I do is two and then wait a few minutes and then reply to a different one. I have already gotten in trouble for it (the person who contacted me on it actually is in this thread talking about the game) It most likely means they don't want some form of spam

thanks for the warning dood

 

[mimgrim]

This was from the pacman footage sakurai showed.

Focus on mario.
What's happening here? It looks like he's b-airing instantly into another A attack, without any lag.
There were a couple instances in the demo (it was really short) where it seemed like the characters could reduce landing lag by dodging when they hit the ground. Not sure if it worked like that in brawl though, haven't played in a while.

Hrmmm, the no lage is interesting. Though it could possibly be a auto-cancel, the thing that got me is how Mario slide upon landing with the Bair. Perhaps a Waveland? Which might confirm momentum?

 

[thesage]

I think Mario's bair just has very little lag. Look at he can spam it in the air.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Unfortunately most of them look as if they are possible to escape.

Yeah, the Ken one shouldn't really count. I just went with the ones that, to me, looked like they were inescapable or at the very least, the opponent didn't bother to escape from when they could have.

But whether the footage is unreliable or not, I'm still confident that we'll start seeing some actual combos once people learn more about the game and the characters. I mean, Ken easily could have got a third ht without running off the ledge (which induces lag).

 

[sunshinesan]

Yeah, the Ken one shouldn't really count. I just went with the ones that, to me, looked like they were inescapable or at the very least, the opponent didn't bother to escape from when they could have.

But whether the footage is unreliable or not, I'm still confident that we'll start seeing some actual combos once people learn more about the game and the characters. I mean, Ken easily could have got a third ht without running off the ledge (which induces lag).

The game looks promising in the combo department, from the limited knowledge that we have, I'm satisfied with the results so far.
Now if we can just have the movement options we wanted (which kinda goes into the combos realm, but still...)

 

[Shaya]

Hrmmm, the no lage is interesting. Though it could possibly be a auto-cancel, the thing that got me is how Mario slide upon landing with the Bair. Perhaps a Waveland? Which might confirm momentum?

In brawl on "slants" or mounded stages (Yoshi's Island, slants of lylat and stuff), you'd get a "wave land" type of thing upon landing on that slant and it would go depending on where you're holding your joystick.

Maybe characters will have controllable "minor" landing sliding. At the very least, I've seen Mario do this sliding magic out of a landing in multiple gifs/videos now.

 

[DaDavid]

Reading this stuff really gives me hope for a game I can hope into. I wish it was looking a bit more aggressive, but honestly it looks promising as hell.

 

[victinivcreate1]

This game's "combos" are practically all escapable. Hitstun in this game isn't enough. The moves need more hitstun for actually true combo follow ups. Also less laggy moves would be appreciated.

 

[Bobojack]

This game's "combos" are practically all escapable. Hitstun in this game isn't enough. The moves need more hitstun for actually true combo follow ups. Also less laggy moves would be appreciated.

Not every Combo we have seen so far is escapable. And if you escape with an airdodge, you can easily punish yiur opponent afterwards due to the lag of the airdodge.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Not every Combo we have seen so far is escapable. And if you escape with an airdodge, you can easily punish yiur opponent afterwards due to the lag of the airdodge.

PPU's "combo"-escapable if WFT threw out a faster move to trade with/jumped and footstooled/airdodge out of slow fall

Ken's fair combo-WFT could have clanked if WFT threw out an attack/airdodged slow fall

PPMD-Thats just not real.

The Pikachu combo is the same case as the PPMD combo.

They're just not real, or the opponent is not doing anything to escape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUtwJGVq21Q-Uploader should have watched clip in slow motion, because every single combo is escapable here. The characters get out of smoke every time.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

This game's "combos" are practically all escapable. Hitstun in this game isn't enough. The moves need more hitstun for actually true combo follow ups. Also less laggy moves would be appreciated.

The hitstun is fine, unless you want all moves to have even more knockback (someone correct me if I'm wrong. I learnt how hitstun works from Metroid, who is a credible source to me). The problem here is the lag from moves, also character mobility to a lesser extent. The only reason characters get out of hitstun is because their knockback has ended before the player's attack has ended, the player is unable to reach the opponent in time, or both.

Also I did them all in slowmo. As I already said, the Ken one is likely a case of Lilo not bothering to do anything. But I promise you, I AM checking to see if the opponent is able to act again, by viewing the videos in 0.25x speed. Notice how I cut out the last Uair for PPU's one? That's because I noticed WFT get out of hitstun upon slowing the footage down.

 

[victinivcreate1]

The hitstun is fine, unless you want all moves to have even more knockback (someone correct me if I'm wrong. I learnt how hitstun works from Metroid, who is a credible source to me). The problem here is the lag from moves, also character mobility to a lesser extent. The only reason characters get out of hitstun is because their knockback has ended before the player's attack has ended, the player is unable to reach the opponent in time, or both.

Also I did them all in slowmo. As I already said, the Ken one is likely a case of Lilo not bothering to do anything. But I promise you, I AM checking to see if the opponent is able to act again, by viewing the videos in 0.25x speed. Notice how I cut out the last Uair for PPU's one? That's because I noticed WFT get out of hitstun upon slowing the footage down.

I believe that you're checking, and I appreciate the effort. But none of the combos in your video really look true. Each character leaves the "smoke trail" animation before the comboer delivers the next hit. TBH character mobility is actually really good in this game, its just game mechanics that make it seem bad.

BTW i commented on your video, and now that I know you checked, I kinda feel bad now. I thought you didn't check.

Also, hitstun doesn't increase with damage percentage. Just at higher percents, you fly farther and can't act. Thats why KO moves in Melee/PM are more effective than they are in Brawl. In a Melee setting, Brawl Snake would die at 120. In Brawl, Snake dies at 150-170 average.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Wouldn't escape-able combos be better? It means that instead of learning button sequences that give you free damage without having to worry about being punished at all, you need to properly read your opponent and their likely reaction to a combo starter and follow up with the proper reactionary combo-follow-up that they aren't prepared to escape or counter.

Being prepared and able to commit and react to that quickly, to keep your opponent pinned in to a combo despite the fact they have options seems pretty damn definitive of displaying skill.

All the sudden it seems like "skill" proponents want the game to be easier in a way...

 

[victinivcreate1]

Wouldn't escape-able combos be better? It means that instead of learning button sequences that give you free damage without having to worry about being punished at all, you need to properly read your opponent and their likely reaction to a combo starter and follow up with the proper reactionary combo-follow-up that they aren't prepared to escape or counter.

Being prepared and able to commit and react to that quickly, to keep your opponent pinned in to a combo despite the fact they have options seems pretty damn definitive of displaying skill.

All the sudden it seems like "skill" proponents want the game to be easier in a way...

Play Melee and waveshine infinite someone for me please in a blink of an eye. Play Brawl and Quick Attack Cancel lock/Single Banana Lock someone for me please. Do Ice Climber's infinite chaingrab for me please. Are those easy things to do? Well its button mashing. No, its not. Tech skill does not equal button mashing. Button mashing is for players who just spam one move. THATS a button masher.

Point is, Smash is a sandbox fighting game. You don't memorize button sequences. What is this SFIV? LOL. You memorize DI patterns, and then learn what you can do from there. And hold on a sec, you're saying like Smash 64/Brawl/Melee professionals don't read an opponent to bait them into a mistake to capitalize with their combo. Thats just wrong. In 64, Isai reads the opponent in neutral to get his zero death once he gets the offensive. In Melee, Mango reads the opponent in every situation and gets his combo like that. In Brawl, Japanese MK RAIN downloads players so that he constantly knows how to react in every situation and gets his strings in like that.

 

[Shaya]

You know what? Nearly every thread in this forum is infested with "the game should be this way, or that way".

Guess what?
This thread isn't for that at all. First and only warning. Discuss what we've seen (FACTS), not your opinions of it.

 

[Cassio]

It's impossible to say for sure but there isn't a single "combo" in that video that doesn't look like it couldn't have been escaped by a buffered airdodge, at least to me. Even the PP one, the dust trail on Little Mac has obviously ended before each subsequent hit.

This game's "combos" are practically all escapable. Hitstun in this game isn't enough. The moves need more hitstun for actually true combo follow ups. Also less laggy moves would be appreciated.

Burffering an air dodge is the easiest thing to do, so it's very possible these aren't escapable

On the other hand buffering attacks is very hard, so it's more likely the game will move faster once people play it.

So more then likely y'all have it backwards

 

[2ndComing]

Our Ruler has spoken people, better listen or internet justice, while meaningless, but still internet justice!

...anyway :D



Can someone please explain what happens in this gif that I am posting? It bugged me everytime I watch it because from a brawl stand point, that SHOULD NOT have happened. If it is there, look closely at fox recovering and watch him get hit by the hammer by the samus when he tried to recover DIRECTLY, I remind you, DIRECTLY at an auto snap ledge system yet he still got hit.

Also, I have tested this several times from different angles and no dice people. In Brawl, that should not have happened, Fox (PPMD) shouldn't have gotten hit by the hammer. This actually is proving a point that I have been thinking about and how the ledges lean more towards Melee in some instances and more towards Brawl in others. Like how little mac was right under the ledge in a match I watched and he didn't auto snap to it but in Brawl he would have made it back no problems.
I get more and more confused with how the ledge works because honestly, that seems like the most unfinished part of the build to me (besides the wonderful crashing ofcourse) Anyone care to elaborate?

http://www.gfycat.com/DazzlingAccomplishedAbyssiniangroundhornbill# (ignore the name -.-)

 

[DaDavid]

The smoke trail leaving the characters doesn't necessarily mean that hit stun in immediately over with them being able to act again. I'm sure that these particular players would have reacted quickly enough to at least airdodge out of those "escapeable" combos if that really was the case. But leaving that point...

Our Ruler has spoken people, better listen or internet justice, while meaningless, but still internet justice!

...anyway :D



Can someone please explain what happens in this gif that I am posting? It bugged me everytime I watch it because from a brawl stand point, that SHOULD NOT have happened. If it is there, look closely at fox recovering and watch him get hit by the hammer by the samus when he tried to recover DIRECTLY, I remind you, DIRECTLY at an auto snap ledge system yet he still got hit.

Also, I have tested this several times from different angles and no dice people. In Brawl, that should not have happened, Fox (PPMD) shouldn't have gotten hit by the hammer. This actually is proving a point that I have been thinking about and how the ledges lean more towards Melee in some instances and more towards Brawl in others. Like how little mac was right under the ledge in a match I watched and he didn't auto snap to it but in Brawl he would have made it back no problems.
I get more and more confused with how the ledge works because honestly, that seems like the most unfinished part of the build to me (besides the wonderful crashing ofcourse) Anyone care to elaborate?

http://www.gfycat.com/DazzlingAccomplishedAbyssiniangroundhornbill# (ignore the name -.-)

The invincibility frames aren't recovered when you try to repeatedly grab the edge like that in this game. He dropped and pretty much immediately tried to re-grab the ledge, so he just wasn't invincible is what it looks like to me.

 

[2ndComing]

The smoke trail leaving the characters doesn't necessarily mean that hit stun in immediately over with them being able to act again. I'm sure that these particular players would have reacted quickly enough to at least airdodge out of those "escapeable" combos if that really was the case. But leaving that point...



The invincibility frames aren't recovered when you try to repeatedly grab the edge like that in this game. He dropped and pretty much immediately tried to re-grab the ledge, so he just wasn't invincible is what it looks like to me.

Oh yea,I completely forgot about that

 

[Big-Cat]

Just going to repost what I've noticed about aerials.

Aerials that have launcher properties or some other very rewarding trait have considerable recovery when landing from a short hop. If the aerial is something like a poke or combo filler, it has less recovery, or auto cancels.

With this game being more ground based, expect less prominence from aerials.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

Did anyone check how jab-resets work in this game (the demo)?

 

[2ndComing]

Did anyone check how jab-resets work in this game (the demo)?

I hear its like Brawl