Game Play and Technical Analysis

[Shaya]

Ledges don't seem to be as magnetic (if at all) as they were in Brawl. I could be wrong, but in Mac's trailer, when he tries to recover with WFT near the ledge, it appeared to me that he would've grabbed the ledge if it was still like Brawl.

I don't think so. Think Luigi's Up-B.

 

[Empyrean]

I don't think so. Think Luigi's Up-B.

In which video? It certainly is possible that I might have not seen it.

 

[Shaya]

I mean that in the video where mac flubs recovery with up-b, that I believe you're referring to, I'm pretty sure that Luigi in Brawl, who also has a horrendous recovery horizontal trajectory in up-b would likely also have missed the ledge.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Backwards ledge grabbing is back if you're interested

 

[OptimistNic]

Ledges don't seem to be as magnetic (if at all) as they were in Brawl. I could be wrong, but in Mac's trailer, when he tries to recover with WFT near the ledge, it appeared to me that he would've grabbed the ledge if it was still like Brawl.

So maybe the range is much shorter. In either case, you stick to the ledge before you can move past it (i.e. before the endlag begins). Is that a problem in competitive play, or was it just the range of the ledge grabbing that was the problem?

Backwards ledge grabbing is back if you're interested

We have that in Project M, and personally I think it's for the better, so this is not an issue.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Looking at Zamus snapping to ledge, in one example, the attack cancels pretty close to the ledge, and she doesn't really have to reach for it.

But in the other one she definitely flies upwards a bit.

 

[DaDavid]

Magnetic ledges in my opinion were only an issue because of the crazy range at which they activated. I'd prefer they be toned down a bit more from what that example up there seems to suggest, but it isn't all that bad compared to Brawl.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Having never played Brawl competitively, I've never heard of "Magnetice ledges." Could someone link me to an example of just how bad they were/explain why they are bad?

 

[Empyrean]

I mean that in the video where mac flubs recovery with up-b, that I believe you're referring to, I'm pretty sure that Luigi in Brawl, who also has a horrendous recovery horizontal trajectory in up-b would likely also have missed the ledge.

Oh, I see. In that case, we will have to see more footage with different characters grabbing the ledge to draw a conclusion. The ZSS gifs aren't exactly clear themselves.

 

[DaDavid]

Having never played Brawl competitively, I've never heard of "Magnetice ledges." Could someone link me to an example of just how bad they were/explain why they are bad?

That's my go-to on the matter.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Having never played Brawl competitively, I've never heard of "Magnetice ledges." Could someone link me to an example of just how bad they were/explain why they are bad?

Spoiler

That's my go-to on the matter.

Yeah. The window for grabbing ledges is often about as wide as a character's whole body. Too bad C. Falcon's crazy recovery didn't stop him from being garb.

Speaking of, with the hitstun back and cancelling delayed, I am praying the Knee of Justice finally returns. Sometimes it seems like my life is lived from one Knee of Justice to the next.

 

[BigHairyFart]

That's my go-to on the matter.

Okay, that definitely needs to go away.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Backwards ledge grabbing is back if you're interested

He is a ninja - would you ever doubt his ability to go where he wanted?

Looking at Zamus snapping to ledge, in one example, the attack cancels pretty close to the ledge, and she doesn't really have to reach for it.

Spoiler

But in the other one she definitely flies upwards a bit.

You have to consider her unique way of recovering - she's upside down and the game is obviously treating the location of her foot as the trigger for a ledge grab. If you ask me, going by the location of her foot, they both seem radially an approximate, ahem, foot apart from the ledge. My spacial perception blows but that's what it looks like to me. Not much difference between the two. In general it looks more narrow than in Brawl though.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Backwards ledge grabbing is back if you're interested

That doesn't look like a backwards ledge grab to me. It looks like his recovery seems to work like Pikachu's Quick Attack(at least in this gif, it probably has it's own functionality that we won't see until we get our own hands on him), so that at the end of the recovery move, he's already facing the ledge.

 

[mimgrim]

Backwards ledge grabbing is back if you're interested

Is it possible some one has a frame by frame of this gif?

As it looks to me that when he preforms, what I presume to be an Uspecial, that move he is facing towards the ledge and when he reaches the apex of it he seems to be facing the ledge as well.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Is it possible some one has a frame by frame of this gif?

As it looks to me that when he preforms, what I presume to be an Uspecial, that move he is facing towards the ledge and when he reaches the apex of it he seems to be facing the ledge as well.

If he does, it's because the gif is so grainy and small. He really does look like he's facing away from the ledge in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmC56ndgeg&feature=player_detailpage#t=102 (1:42 if you get interrupted by ads)

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Is it possible some one has a frame by frame of this gif?

As it looks to me that when he preforms, what I presume to be an Uspecial, that move he is facing towards the ledge and when he reaches the apex of it he seems to be facing the ledge as well.

It looks like he's facing away to me. You can see he is looking away from the ledge at the top/end of the Up B. It could be a Falcon/Link type of recovery that allows backwards ledge grabs. I doubt it though those usually involve spinning in some way.

 

[BigHairyFart]

If he does, it's because the gif is so grainy and small. He really does look like he's facing away from the ledge in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmC56ndgeg&feature=player_detailpage#t=102 (1:42 if you get interrupted by ads)

You're right, he is DEFINITELY facing away from the ledge.
Also, it's easier to see if you watch at .25x speed in the official video:
http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=38m19s at 38:19

 

[mimgrim]

If he does, it's because the gif is so grainy and small. He really does look like he's facing away from the ledge in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmC56ndgeg&feature=player_detailpage#t=102 (1:42 if you get interrupted by ads)

Pausing and playing it, basically a manual way to slow it down, at the start of the move, it looks like he is facing the ledge. However when he angles his back is towards the ledge at that time. When he grabs the ledge his back is facing the ledge, well technically his underbelly is but his head is away from the ledge rather then towards.

So he starts out facing the ledge but ends up not facing it.

That's what mainly threw me for a loop in the gif because it looked like he started out facing it, which he does.

 

[Senario]

That's my go-to on the matter.

Lol...well I now have another reason as to why I quit brawl within a month and went back to melee. I love captain falcon and all but that is just plain silly.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Lol...well I now have another reason as to why I quit brawl within a month and went back to melee. I love captain falcon and all but that is just plain silly.

All smash games have something stupid in them. What makes Smash fun is how we exploit the dumb things for competitive benefits.

 

[BigHairyFart]

All smash games have something stupid in them. What makes Smash fun is how we exploit the dumb things for competitive benefits.

Exactly. Smash 64 had broken grab games, Melee had wavedashing shenanigans(which I still find unnatural for fighting games and am glad they will not be present in Smash 4), and Brawl had, well, a lot of things.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

For all of you trying determine if you can grab the ledge while facing away from it or not, watch Mario here, at 2:09. He clearly grabs the ledge while facing away from it.

You have to consider her unique way of recovering - she's upside down and the game is obviously treating the location of her foot as the trigger for a ledge grab. If you ask me, going by the location of her foot, they both seem radially an approximate, ahem, foot apart from the ledge. My spacial perception blows but that's what it looks like to me. Not much difference between the two. In general it looks more narrow than in Brawl though.

It is a bit hard to tell where she is in relation to the ledge because of the camera angle, but it definitely looks likes she's farther away from the ledge in the second gif. Look at how how many frames has her in the reaching for the ledge position. In the first gif she's only in that position for one frame, while in the second she's in that position for five frames. You're right though there isn't a tremendous difference between the two and it is definitely not as silly as Brawl's ledges.

EDIT: Blah nevermind. Watched the actual clip again and it's clear the footage is slowed down for that part, which explains why it looks like the snapping is more extreme in the second gif.

 

[Senario]

Exactly. Smash 64 had broken grab games, Melee had wavedashing shenanigans(which I still find unnatural for fighting games and am glad they will not be present in Smash 4), and Brawl had, well, a lot of things.

It (Wavedashing) isn't that unnatural for fighting games. It is actually present in other fighting games such as Marvel vs capcom and apparently tekken. Although it is most popular in Smash bros. It isn't that broken, just gives you good options. Oh and it is pretty much intended since it is the physics of the game. Maintaining momentum and all that.

 

[BigHairyFart]

It isn't that unnatural for fighting games. It is actually present in other fighting games such as Marvel vs capcom and apparently tekken. Although it is most popular in Smash bros. It isn't that broken, just gives you good options. Oh and it is pretty much intended since it is the physics of the game. Maintaining momentum and all that.

When you say "it," are you referring to wavedashing, or silly things in fighting games in general?

 

[Dravidian]

Having never played Brawl competitively, I've never heard of "Magnetice ledges." Could someone link me to an example of just how bad they were/explain why they are bad?

It's not as bad as that other guy made it. It depended on the character really. Some characters could could do it from body length away but others like Wolf had almost no magnetism.

 

[DaDavid]

It's not as bad as that other guy made it. It depended on the character really. Some characters could could do it from body length away but others like Wolf had almost no magnetism.

With all due respect, if any one can do it from body length away, it's a problem haha.

 

[Dravidian]

With all due respect, if any one can do it from body length away, it's a problem haha.

No probs. I'm just saying that one of the biggest perpetrators is Jigglypuff, one of the weaker (and smaller) characters in Brawl, so I dont see it as too much of a problem. It's more of a problem when stronger characters can do it. And iirc only about three of the higher ranked characters have a large magnet range and one of then is often banned.

 

[Priap0s]

Well, I just hope you don't snap to the ledge from the absurd distance you do in Brawl. Backward grabs are fine and I think I actually prefer them.

I do wish the skill of sweet spotting isn't taken away though. I like that if you get stressed and time it wrong a recovery move will make you go past the ledge, not automaticaly grab the ledge when you pass it. I think sweetspotting edges is a valid skill and it makes edgeguarding more dynamic too. Edgeguarding was to damn hard in Brawl but maybe it had more to do with the length you snapped ledges at and the multi air dodges? (Wich I also hope is gone. I don't mind Brawls air dodge, but I wish you only had one or atleast a longer cooldown between them).

 

[Dravidian]

Well, I just hope you don't snap to the ledge from the absurd distance you do in Brawl. Backward grabs are fine and I think I actually prefer them.

I do wish the skill of sweet spotting isn't taken away though. I like that if you get stressed and time it wrong a recovery move will make you go past the ledge, not automaticaly grab the ledge when you pass it. I think sweetspotting edges is a valid skill and it makes edgeguarding more dynamic too. Edgeguarding was to damn hard in Brawl but maybe it had more to do with the length you snapped ledges at and the multi aird dodges? (Wich I also hope is gone. I don't mind Brawls aird dodge, but I wish you only had one or atleast a longer cooldown between them).

I'd go with longer cool down. That way if the guy attacking screws up his punish, the defender (guy/chick who dodged) gets another chance. I think that'd be fair.

 

[Empyrean]

Well, I just hope you don't snap to the ledge from the absurd distance you do in Brawl. Backward grabs are fine and I think I actually prefer them.

I do wish the skill of sweet spotting isn't taken away though. I like that if you get stressed and time it wrong a recovery move will make you go past the ledge, not automaticaly grab the ledge when you pass it. I think sweetspotting edges is a valid skill and it makes edgeguarding more dynamic too. Edgeguarding was to damn hard in Brawl but maybe it had more to do with the length you snapped ledges at and the multi air dodges? (Wich I also hope is gone. I don't mind Brawls air dodge, but I wish you only had one or atleast a longer cooldown between them).

I hope that having to sweetspot returns too. In Brawl, being offstage was no big deal (except against MK, but then again, it's MK). You didn't have to worry about being punished if you didn't sweetspot, and in the case you were too low, the ledge is probably going to save you. Recovering should put the offstage player at a disadvantage, not allow him to freely return, at least imo.

 

[Godking123]

For all of you trying determine if you can grab the ledge while facing away from it or not, watch Mario here, at 2:09. He clearly grabs the ledge while facing away from it.

If you look very closely and slow the video down or pause it at certain parts, to me it looks like he twists his body at an angle in his aerial, that allows him to face forward and grab the ledge. Take another look, because at first glance, I thought he grabbed it backwards, but after taking a second look, it looks like he was facing forward.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

If you look very closely and slow the video down or pause it at certain parts, to me it looks like he twists his body at an angle in his aerial, that allows him to face forward and grab the ledge. Take another look, because at first glance, I thought he grabbed it backwards, but after taking a second look, it looks like he was facing forward.

Not seeing any aerial. I see him do a forward mid-air jump while facing away the ledge and then he grabs it. He's not a multi-jump character like Kirby or Pit so he couldn't have turned around by just jumping, and he doesn't use a special move to turn around either, so he must have grabbed the ledge while facing away from it.

 

[Dravidian]

I never got people's issue with grabbing something right behind you. Anyone care to explain?

 

[[TSON]]

I never got people's issue with grabbing something right behind you. Anyone care to explain?

Just takes some of the difficulty out of recovering. You could only do it under very particular circumstances in Melee (while performing certain moves)

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I never got people's issue with grabbing something right behind you. Anyone care to explain?

The reverse ledge grab takes away some of the risk of recovering and making plays around the ledge. Combined with hitstun cancelling and ledge magnetism, knocking an opponent offstage is often pretty meaningless as a lot is in place to the enemy get back on stage. This causes a lot of edge guard plays to end up being a waste of effort and for the game to get drawn out. It also makes gliding monumentally less riskier when gimping or stalling, but I don't know if gliding is in the new game yet.

 

[Mamp]

The reverse ledge grab takes away some of the risk of recovering and making plays around the ledge. Combined with hitstun cancelling and ledge magnetism, knocking an opponent offstage is often pretty meaningless as a lot is in place to the enemy get back on stage. This causes a lot of edge guard plays to end up being a waste of effort and for the game to get drawn out. It also makes gliding monumentally less riskier when gimping or stalling, but I don't know if gliding is in the new game yet.

I believe gliding has been confirmed to have been cut.

 

[Empyrean]

I believe gliding has been confirmed to have been cut.

For Pit, yes. However, we don't know for Zard yet, and MK hasn't been revealed yet. We should wait before concluding anything.

Hopefully he doesn't get the dumb idea of removing Peach's hover.

 

[D-idara]

I never got people's issue with grabbing something right behind you. Anyone care to explain?

People on this community like things to be hard for the sake of being hard, look at L-Cancelling and the fact that Project M still has it. I think grabbing the ledges backwards was one of the best mechanics from Brawl, I mean, it makes no sense that such agile characters like Mario, Sonic or Samus can't grab the ledge while facing backwards. I also like how there's still a little bit of ledgesnap, but not as ridiculous as Brawl's, recovering on Project M and Melee feels like an overly-precise chore, I mean, having to sweetspot the ledge every time? That's a little ridiculous.

 

[Dravidian]

The reverse ledge grab takes away some of the risk of recovering and making plays around the ledge. Combined with hitstun cancelling and ledge magnetism, knocking an opponent offstage is often pretty meaningless as a lot is in place to the enemy get back on stage. This causes a lot of edge guard plays to end up being a waste of effort and for the game to get drawn out. It also makes gliding monumentally less riskier when gimping or stalling, but I don't know if gliding is in the new game yet.

Well that depends on character. I played Ness in melee and brawl, so I already had to be precise. It felt like a godsend since I could vary my timing more and make it harder for the opponent to eff up my recovery. I also played wolf occasionally in brawl who had almost no magnetism.... It was hella hard to recover with those two from certain angles. The whole "too difficult to edge guard" argument only really applies to characters with great recovery, most of whom are the few in the "top tier".