Game Play and Technical Analysis

[Prototype]

Have BF's spawn positions changed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iktxi6tPBPw

2:36
5:48

I'm sure there are many more examples in the direct. Still need to check.
But, iirc, all spawn positions were centralized for both players in Brawl.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Can I just be the one to point out that the Wii Fit Trainer may have a Walljump?

32:50 - Onwards, during the Smash Run footage, in the circle at the bottom (She's offscreen), she seems to be clinging to a wall with an alien animation we haven't seen before iirc. Thoughts?

Also, I've just noticed that at 33:07 in the direct, you see Mario use a weird looking Kick Move. Is this a new animation or a altered move. Thoughts?

 

[Prototype]

Also, I've just noticed that at 33:07 in the direct, you see Mario use a weird looking Kick Move. Is this a new animation or a altered move. Thoughts?

Looks like his Dash Attack > F-tilt to me. But it's difficult to see, so idk. o:

 

[HermitHelmet]

Looks like his Dash Attack > F-tilt to me. But it's difficult to see, so idk. o:

Yeah. If it is, looks purty.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think Momentum Cancelling is definitely going to be out this game to focus on more things for the gameplay. I haven't seen it in gameplay yet.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Go back to about 4:50 in the Direct, which is when Jungle Japes is shown. Look at Fox carefully. It seems that he air dodges out of hitstun BEFORE the smoke clears up. Someone please prove me wrong...

 

[Cold Fusion]

Go back to about 4:50 in the Direct, which is when Jungle Japes is shown. Look at Fox carefully. It seems that he air dodges out of hitstun BEFORE the smoke clears up. Someone please prove me wrong...

It seems like that to me too...

 

[Leonyx]

Go back to about 4:50 in the Direct, which is when Jungle Japes is shown. Look at Fox carefully. It seems that he air dodges out of hitstun BEFORE the smoke clears up. Someone please prove me wrong...

I don't think it's a problem. I doesn't look there's any more smoke as he's dodging, so I think the theory is still sound. Unless I don't fully understand the theory, the smoke doesn't need to completely disappear so much as it stops generating once hit stun is gone.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I don't think it's a problem. I doesn't look there's any more smoke as he's dodging, so I think the theory is still sound. Unless I don't fully understand the theory, the smoke doesn't need to completely disappear so much as it stops generating once hit stun is gone.

Oh... I hope you're right...

 

[DaDavid]

Watching any of those clips in slow motion it seems clear that the smoke trail stops generating before any character air-dodges. Yes the trail is still present, but like Leonyx said, the smoke = hit-stun theory still seems perfectly sound.

 

[Alondite]

It looks like he just stops generating smoke and air dodges at the first possible frame out of hitstun. If anything, it looks to reinforce the theory given how quickly he acts out of hitstun, like the action is buffered.

 

[[TSON]]

Watching any of those clips in slow motion it seems clear that the smoke trail stops generating before any character air-dodges. Yes the trail is still present, but like Leonyx said, the smoke = hit-stun theory still seems perfectly sound.

As I've said/argued before, hitstun is not indicated by the smoke. The smoke stops before the hitstun does. When you see the character fling their head back, once their head is all of the way back, that's when tumble will start and that's when hitstun is over. That means the end of hitstun is actually the end of the animation that plays once the smoke stops being spawned. That anim is usually over before the smoke is completely gone, too.

 

[Shaya]

If you guys want to test some theories about hit stun cancelling, count how many 'frames' these certain animations are going for and when their air dodges come out.
If its like like brawl, then reaching tumble percent (the percent at which a hit is strong enough to send you into a tumble animation) then you'll see some cancels.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Can we get some slowed down gifs of the animations we're thinking about?

 

[RODO]

We really need someone to go super in-depth with hit stun.

 

[Empyrean]

I love how the rest of the people on these boards are anxious to know the fate of their fave character, a newcomer, etc. and we're here worried about hitstun-cancelling making a dreadful comeback.

 

[Onomanic]

I love how the rest of the people on these boards are anxious to know the fate of their fave character, a newcomer, etc. and we're here worried about hitstun-cancelling making a dreadful comeback.

To be fair, it is a valid concern and it effects the game at large.

 

[Empyrean]

To be fair, it is a valid concern and it effects the game at large.

Honestly there's nothing I care about more right now.

 

[Shaya]

Hitstun cancelling isn't necessarily bad, it's hardly the "problem" of brawl at higher/top levels.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Hitstun cancelling isn't necessarily bad, it's hardly the "problem" of brawl at higher/top levels.

Care to elaborate? I haven't followed brawl's competitive scene very much

 

[Prototype]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs#t=269

Here, I think Mario is shown performing a new animation that happens when characters run off an edge. It looks like it might have invincibility frames too, but it's difficult to see.

Someone mentioned earlier that DK's roll can continue off edges, but I think DK might have been doing the same thing shown here.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs#t=269

Here, I think Mario is shown performing a new animation that happens when characters run off an edge. It looks like it might have invincibility frames too, but it's difficult to see.

Someone mentioned earlier that DK's roll can continue off edges, but I think DK might have been doing the same thing shown here.

If you're talking about what DK does at 32:07 in the Smash run section, yea it looks he does what Mario's doing. I actually noticed Mario doing that too and after digging around the Direct I think you can see Luigi do it too at 33:02. It's hard to fell though because he's covered in fire. I think it's just a new animation for some characters though. Marth falls off ledges the same way he always has, and the flashing from Mario looks like he just respawned.

 

[Shaya]

Care to elaborate? I haven't followed brawl's competitive scene very much

background info:~~~
Okay.
"Hit stun cancelling" as a mechanic is this:
Hit stun exists as a value determined by move knockback, it is of similar values to that in melee.
Tumble is an animation/state where if the knockback of a move is high enough, you'll enter into it.

1. The amount of hitstun a move can have in Brawl before entering tumble is 30 frames. If the move doesn't send you into tumble, you experience REAL HIT STUN (cannot air dodge or attack, or jump, or special). Another point is that there are no DI modifiers on pre-tumble moves - this is the reason chain grabs exist (Falco, Dedede, etc) as they do in Brawl. If this didn't exist, all cgs, bar maybe ICs would have escape options/etc. This gives emphasis on Smash DI to avoid moves chaining that 'combo' for long periods of time (most top tiers have quite a few).
2. If a move's knockback will make you tumble things change. You may air dodge out of tumble at 15 frames of it, attack at 24 (both numbers are 'IIRC'), you have normal DI ability. However you cannot jump or use specials. Your only options are a 40 or 50 frame air dodge [taking you up to 55 or 65 frames of you not having control of your character] or attacks (character based, but aerials are usually 30+ frames). Let me highlight ONLY OPTIONS.
~~~~~

1. Characters have combo moves, but most start with too low knockback to actually be safe on hit, its almost like normalising crouch cancelling. Most characters rely on free + guaranteed throw follows up to get characters to a percent at which their primary moves start to combo. This is usually around the 30-50% mark. So from mid percent to usually just before kill percent, most characters have low knockback growth or low ending lag moves that aren't suitable at 0% but give true hitstun (that can be managed to last longer due to the move queue being 9) for elongated periods. At high levels, with buffering, players are executing combos or "near perfect" frame traps from hitconfirms and the like.

2. The amount of options you have are still meager. If you airdodge you cannot fast fall, only drift, and it's a big commitment. There's no way to jump out of tumble. You have two options only, aerial or air dodge and both are commitments, the main thing though is that when you're hit, the place where you travel to is mostly deterministic, and although you have the option to attack or airdodge a follow up, your positional placement is 'set in stone'. This is where frame traps, good positioning and timing come into effect on the player who landed a hit, if they can move (buffer the action) to get into a space where they can avoid some out of tumble attack and can punish air dodges they're more or less guaranteed another hit. And this is what you see in 'faster paced' high level matches of brawl (not denying that some characters/matchups are cursed to not really be able to speed things up with either mechanics, but its not universal).

So for most characters, their aerials eventually combo well, as do their dash attacks. Hitconfirms are within reaction speed and if you know your character/enemies DI habits, you can take hits and continue the "awful positioning" chain until you mess up/they outplay you. You're still basically in a **** situation you shouldn't get out of easily - its the other things from brawl (no DI on pre-tumble, floatyness, etc) that negatively impact the game.

 

[[TSON]]

If you guys want to test some theories about hit stun cancelling, count how many 'frames' these certain animations are going for and when their air dodges come out.
If its like like brawl, then reaching tumble percent (the percent at which a hit is strong enough to send you into a tumble animation) then you'll see some cancels.

It looks to be like Brawl...just without the canceling. Meaning you go into reeling knockback (w/ smoke), then throw your head back, then go into tumble. There are no instances of cancels before the characters throw their heads back in any gameplay clip, including MM vs. Mario from way back when the game was first announced. There is no, afaik from examining footage, predetermined number of frames before you can cancel, it looks to be based off of the hitstun formula most likely seeing as how it is at the same time as the animation change (or later) in every clip. The hitstun frames vary wildly if you count them, which (imo) they should, as more kb should = more hitstun logically.

 

[Shaya]

Let's imagine for a second there's "hit stun cancelling" but it scales.

In brawl, hitstun before tumble is <30 frames.
Hitstun cancel options are 15 frames for air dodge and 24 for attacks (IIRC).
So look at it two ways
1. Half of hitstun length to air dodge for a cancel, or 20% for attacks [still 100% for specials/jumps]
2. Or -15/-6 frames.

So air dodge/attack are options but aren't static.

-

@[TSON]
Has there been noted a difference between a person being hit going into tumble and otherwise? If there's hit stun cancelling, there's likely to be a similar time frame of when someone air dodges (or maybe attacks?) from a tumble hit across multiple instances. Or mechanics could be different altogether.

 

[[TSON]]

@[TSON]
Has there been noted a difference between a person being hit going into tumble and otherwise? If there's hit stun cancelling, there's likely to be a similar time frame of when someone air dodges (or maybe attacks?) from a tumble hit across multiple instances. Or mechanics could be different altogether.

Not sure what you mean, unless you're referring to non-tumble hurt anims cancelling? There's no instances really of that happening at all before the hurt animation ends normally that I remember off the top of my head, they just go back into the falling animation. I think the best way to judge these tumble hits is to look for that transitional animation. The way I believe it plays off is like this.

- Player is hit, experiences hitlag which we're all accustomed to
- Game engine calculates hitstun, puts player into high-knockback "reeling animation" (the one with the smoke) for the duration of the calculated hitstun (assuming 0.4x multiplier like Melee/Brawl, this means 40 frames for 100 units of KB). Smoke is spawned.
- An extra couple of frames are tacked on for the static-length transition animation where the character throws their head back (or the last few frames are auto this animation? dunno). Smoke is not spawned during this point.
- The character begins spinning (tumble) and can act out of it or wiggle the control stick to go back into fall.

All actions happen after or on that last part - after the head movement and animation change. I believe this animation is made to signify the end of hitstun.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, sounds like its probably gone, as I'm pretty sure you immediately would go into an air dodge animation, not a transitional one if you cancelled tumble.

Maybe they just haven't done it in videos thus far, or its gone.

 

[Shariq]

It looks to be like Brawl...just without the canceling. Meaning you go into reeling knockback (w/ smoke), then throw your head back, then go into tumble. There are no instances of cancels before the characters throw their heads back in any gameplay clip, including MM vs. Mario from way back when the game was first announced. There is no, afaik from examining footage, predetermined number of frames before you can cancel, it looks to be based off of the hitstun formula most likely seeing as how it is at the same time as the animation change (or later) in every clip. The hitstun frames vary wildly if you count them, which (imo) they should, as more kb should = more hitstun logically.

so as of the information we have right now. SSB4 has proper/real combos unlike Brawl?

 

[[TSON]]

Hmm, sounds like its probably gone, as I'm pretty sure you immediately would go into an air dodge animation, not a transitional one if you cancelled tumble.

Maybe they just haven't done it in videos thus far, or its gone.

It looks gone to me. A lot of the cancels look like they were buffered during the transitional animation, because you don't even see one frame of tumble before the airdodge comes out, yet the transition frames happen every time.

For those of you that don't know, if you do an input on a frame that you can't actually perform that action on, the game will keep trying for a bit. This is called buffering.
My hypothesis is that airdodges are (presumably) being pressed during hitstun in a lot of these clips, so the game keeps trying to airdodge for a bit since it's not actually possible yet, and then does so on the first frame that it's actually possible... Seeing that most airdodges come out after the reeling + transition animation are over, that would mean that you aren't able to airdodge until that first frame of tumble (or they have superhuman accuracy). Which means no hitstun cancelling.

so as of the information we have right now. SSB4 has proper/real combos unlike Brawl?

Brawl does have a couple real combos, but it looks like SSB4 makes KO moves more potent since you can't airdodge or attack once you're sent flying until your stun properly ends. Which is good. As for the interesting/crazy/long combos, those depend more on fallspeed and landlag, and it's not looking too hot for those from what I can see unless landlag is really low overall.

I guess we'll see with the Best Buy demos for sure, though, it's kinda hard to tell with the footage we have now.

 

[Chiroz]

It looks gone to me. A lot of the cancels look like they were buffered during the transitional animation, because you don't even see one frame of tumble before the airdodge comes out, yet the transition frames happen every time.

For those of you that don't know, if you do an input on a frame that you can't actually perform that action on, the game will keep trying for a bit. This is called buffering.
My hypothesis is that airdodges are (presumably) being pressed during hitstun in a lot of these clips, so the game keeps trying to airdodge for a bit since it's not actually possible yet, and then does so on the first frame that it's actually possible... Seeing that most airdodges come out after the reeling + transition animation are over, that would mean that you aren't able to airdodge until that first frame of tumble (or they have superhuman accuracy). Which means no hitstun cancelling.


Brawl does have a couple real combos, but it looks like SSB4 makes KO moves more potent since you can't airdodge or attack once you're sent flying until your stun properly ends. Which is good. As for the interesting/crazy/long combos, those depend more on fallspeed and landlag, and it's not looking too hot for those from what I can see unless landlag is really low overall.

I guess we'll see with the Best Buy demos for sure, though, it's kinda hard to tell with the footage we have now.

I don't want to start another discussion, I just wanted to say I really like the way you are expressing yourself now. Again not meant to start a discussion, if you want just ignore I said anything.



Anyways, the reason I quoted you is because last time we spoke you seem to have been basing your views on doing a 1/4th speed down of the video footage. I'd just like to point out that 1/4th of a second in a 60 fps game would actually equate to 15 frames (or so I would think, I am actually very inexperienced in things such as video editing, but I mean, if there are 60 frames (or updates) per second, and you are watching 1/4th of a second every frame of a video, I would guess that would be 60 * 1/4th, meaning 15 frames of the video game per frame of the video).

Not only that but it is good to note that the videos are probably not recorded at 60 fps themselves, they could be recorded at less or more fps which in both cases would distort the frame equivalency every frame of the video. This in turn means that every frame could hold a different number of video game updates (or frames), ranging around the 15 frames mark.

Again, I could be seriously wrong about many things in these 2 paragraphs, but at least that's what it logically leads me to believe. If I were to be correct then what seems to be like "frame perfect" dodges, are actually 5-20 frame dodges and as such wouldn't be unhuman reflexes. I don't think we can get actual frame by frame data of these videos just yet, or at least not at 1/4th speed (maybe with a video editing software that allowed greater speed down). Hopefully the E3/Best Buy Demos will clear up all doubts and answers.

 

[RODO]

I wish someone would do a video comparing the hitstun of Melee, Brawl and Sm4sh (hint hint wink wink).

 

[[TSON]]

I don't want to start another discussion, I just wanted to say I really like the way you are expressing yourself now. Again not meant to start a discussion, if you want just ignore I said anything.



Anyways, the reason I quoted you is because last time we spoke you seem to have been basing your views on doing a 1/4th speed down of the video footage. I'd just like to point out that 1/4th of a second in a 60 fps game would actually equate to 15 frames (or so I would think, I am actually very inexperienced in things such as video editing, but I mean, if there are 60 frames (or updates) per second, and you are watching 1/4th of a second every frame of a video, I would guess that would be 60 * 1/4th, meaning 15 frames of the video game per frame of the video).
Not only that but it is good to note that the videos are probably not recorded at 60 fps themselves, they could be recorded at less or more fps which in both cases would distort the frame equivalency every frame of the video. This in turn means that every frame could hold a different number of video game updates (or frames), ranging around the 15 frames mark.

Again, I could be seriously wrong about many things in these 2 paragraphs, but at least that's what it logically leads me to believe. If I were to be correct then what seems to be like "frame perfect" dodges, are actually 5-20 frame dodges and as such wouldn't be unhuman reflexes. I don't think we can get actual frame by frame data of these videos just yet, or at least not at 1/4th speed (maybe with a video editing software that allowed greater speed down). Hopefully the E3/Best Buy Demos will clear up all doubts and answers.

Nonono, we're watching 60 frames per second in 1/4 speed, which is 15 frames per second, not per frame. That's 66 ms per frame - ample time to process what's going on, but it also helps that you can tap space to pause the video and get a better look (which I had to do for that Lucario comparison before). It does look like the videos are 60fps too.
Even still, even just 5 frames of delay would still be visually obvious as tumble looks very different than the last frame of the animation before it. I didn't see it at all.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Nonono, we're watching 60 frames per second in 1/4 speed, which is 15 frames per second, not per frame. That's 66 ms per frame - ample time to process what's going on, but it also helps that you can tap space to pause the video and get a better look (which I had to do for that Lucario comparison before). It does look like the videos are 60fps too.
Even still, even just 5 frames of delay would still be visually obvious as tumble looks very different than the last frame of the animation before it. I didn't see it at all.

I have a question. If hitstun cancelling appears to have been removed, yet assuming fallspeed and landing lag are still similar to Brawl, what could this possibly mean for the metagame of Smash 4 as a whole? I'm not an expert on this, so I'm asking you.

 

[Cold Fusion]

I have a question. If hitstun cancelling appears to have been removed, yet assuming fallspeed and landing lag are still similar to Brawl, what could this possibly mean for the metagame of Smash 4 as a whole? I'm not an expert on this, so I'm asking you.

It'd likely resemble SSB64. But in my eyes, the speed of the game appears to be much faster than brawl.

 

[[TSON]]

I have a question. If hitstun cancelling appears to have been removed, yet assuming fallspeed and landing lag are still similar to Brawl, what could this possibly mean for the metagame of Smash 4 as a whole? I'm not an expert on this, so I'm asking you.

It means you'll be looking at short combos from weak grounded attacks and maybe a few vertical combos... not much else. Without L-Cancelling or short landlag, you're not gonna have crazy CF knee-knee true combos or anything unfortunately. You probably won't even be able to do nair -> grab with anyone.

Think back to that Little Mac clip where he does an upward attack into upB. That's basically about the extent of the combos the game will have, which is kind of stale but at least a move in the right direction.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

It means you'll be looking at short combos from weak grounded attacks and maybe a few vertical combos... not much else. Without L-Cancelling or short landlag, you're not gonna have crazy CF knee-knee true combos or anything unfortunately. You probably won't even be able to do nair -> grab with anyone.

Think back to that Little Mac clip where he does an upward attack into upB. That's basically about the extent of the combos the game will have, which is kind of stale but at least a move in the right direction.

I see. That's a little disheartening. It doesn't seem like competitive matches will be too exciting, but, as you said, a step in the right direction.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

It means you'll be looking at short combos from weak grounded attacks and maybe a few vertical combos... not much else. Without L-Cancelling or short landlag, you're not gonna have crazy CF knee-knee true combos or anything unfortunately. You probably won't even be able to do nair -> grab with anyone.

Think back to that Little Mac clip where he does an upward attack into upB. That's basically about the extent of the combos the game will have, which is kind of stale but at least a move in the right direction.

This wouldn't surprise me. After all, with some exceptions like Rosalina, everything shown so far follows a one-two combo format. The first hit is one that knocks the opponent into the air and the next is another hit equating to a small juggle.
Eg.
Yoshi's Utilt -> Bair
Greninja's Dair(?) -> Bair
Little Mac's anything -> Rising Uppercut (there were a few Rising Uppercut combos shown)
Little Mac is also shown a few times using a low sweeping move before following it up with what I'm guessing is his Up Smash or up-angled Forward Smash. This could be his Dtilt, though it could also be a down-angled Forward Smash, since Sakurai said in a PotD that Mac's angled Fsmashes have different animations to the standard one and that the down-angled one has high stun and little knockback.
Mega Lucario's Aura Sphere -> Extremespeed (note that WFT gets out of hitstun before he uses Force Palm. You can see it if you pause at the right time)
Shiek's Dtilt -> Ftilt

Seriously, Ros is the only one I've seen to do more than 2 connected hits (other than Sonic's ambiguous 4 hit combo that I believe is escapable if the Marth player actually tried to).

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I'm not even sure if Rosalina had a true 3-hit combo, because it seems as if Pit came out of hitstun and could've escaped. Sakurai talked about Pikachu's Thunder combo, but he said the player could dodge out of it. I have all respect for the man, but is it really a combo if the character can escape in the middle of an attack string?

 

[Big-Cat]

Perhaps it's not a combo, but a mix-up.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Sakurai talked about Pikachu's Thunder combo, but he said the player could dodge out of it. I have all respect for the man, but is it really a combo if the character can escape in the middle of an attack string?

Agreed. However, even in Brawl there was at least one way Pikachu could get guaranteed Thunders (a way that makes Wolf cry). Just wait til the game comes out and I'm sure the Pika mains will start cracking down on finding some way of getting it to work