Game Play and Technical Analysis

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Agreed. However, even in Brawl there was at least one way Pikachu could get guaranteed Thunders (a way that makes Wolf cry). Just wait til the game comes out and I'm sure the Pika mains will start cracking down on finding some way of getting it to work

I agree. I'm sure that Thunder Attack will be useful. I was just hoping this game could have more exciting combos than just a two-hit attack string.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I agree. I'm sure that Thunder Attack will be useful. I was just hoping this game could have more exciting combos than just a two-hit attack string.

I think that's something most people In this thread can agree on.

Edit to avoid posting too much:
When you guys get to play the demo, there's one combo I'd like to see someone try. I'm wondering if Megaman's Utilt -> Uair -> Dair would work. I think it probably wouldn't, because his Uair appears to not trap opponents particularly well and thus they could just move out of it. Also you may need to use Up B between the second and third hits. Like I said, it may not work but I think it's worth a try.

 

[[TSON]]

Again, that's only assuming landlag and fallspeeds are the same. Fallspeeds actually in reality seem a bit faster, and landlag is the big one, and I'm not sure about it yet.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I think that's something most people In this thread can agree on.

Edit to avoid posting too much:
When you guys get to play the demo, there's one combo I'd like to see someone try. I'm wondering if Megaman's Utilt -> Uair -> Dair would work. I think it probably wouldn't, because his Uair appears to not trap opponents particularly well and thus they could just move out of it. Also you may need to use Up B between the second and third hits. Like I said, it may not work but I think it's worth a try.

I think this has been said before, but in the direct, Megaman completely absorbed DK's Up Special. Megaman didn't even move, and he didn't flinch either.

 

[ibmutt]

Characters on average seem to "crouch" for less frames than Brawl before they jump. The highest "crouch" time is 6 or 5 frames while the lowest is 2 frames. All the above assumes that my method was accurate. The method is a little tricky to explain for me. However, I will say that I validated my method using the frame data for some characters in SSBB. Accordingly, I'm fairly confident in it as a rule of thumb. Moving on, "crouch" is in inverted comma's because some character's don't ever visually crouch or they visually crouch for a fraction of the start up time. I don't know if this was case in previous installments. The "crouch findings" section is a little rough so there might be some mistakes. Hopefully, this is correct, useful or interesting.

Spoiler: Key for the Crouch findings

Crouches for X frames
Character Name

Spoiler: Key for the Crouch findings

• (minutes:seconds:tens of milliseconds) 3DS/WiiU [comment]

The time in brackets is usually and at most 5 frames before the crouch starts this is for a reason. I usually indicate when the lead up frames are shorter.

Spoiler: Crouching findings

Spoiler: Crouches for 5 frames

Bowser

• 16:02:17 [could be 6 frames, Bowser is airborne but standing in frame 5]
• 01:02:24 [could be frame 5 or 6]
• 02:03:03 3DS [5 or 6]
• 03:21:58 WiiU [could be 6 frames, Different animation to all the 3DS jumps]

Spoiler: Crouches for 4 frames

Zelda

• 02:20:29 3DS [She's clearly airborne on frame 5 and grounded on frame 4]
• 02:03:01 3DS [I'll treat it as further evidence for the time above]

Spoiler: Crouches for 3 frames

Yoshi

• 11:31:57 Wii U [clearly 3 frames]

Rosalina

• 12:04:59 [her "crouching" animation is really subtle]

WFT

• 4:44:46 Wii U [could be 4 frames] 02:04:59 [looks more like 3 frames crouching here; also there are no preliminary frames]
• 02:05:32 [tricky to look at she's also jumps backwards. She could be in contact with the ground on frame 4]
• 02:19:24 [she's clearly off the ground on frame 4]
• 02:20:00 [WFT jump is unclear here]
• 02:22:20 3DS [She's very clearly airborne on frame 4]
• 02:45:20 [She jumps backwards here and she looks like she on the ground on frame 4; only 4 lead up frames. She can be off the ground though]

Link

• 4:43:46 3DS
• 16:49:36 3DS [the time is 2 frames before]
• 16:12:14 WiiU [a little tricky to pick out without the above two examples]

DK

• 3DS 02:07:21

Luigi

• 02:23:45 [He could be crouching for 2 frames]
• 04:03:02
• 02:07:31[He's still airborne on frame 4]

Marth

• 16:37:16 3DS

Mario

• 16:42:36 3DS

Little Mac

• 16:25:33 3DS

Charizard

• 19:17:24 WiiU [could be recorded at another fps]

Greninja

• 19:25:28
• 19:04:18
• 19:12:52

Pit

• 02:15:29 [pretty clearly 3 frames]

Spoiler: Crouches for 2 frames

Mario

• 02:15:14 [Crouches for 2 or 3 frames; on third frame his feet are very close to the ground but jumping image matches]
• 02:19:52 [Mario is clearly on the ground for only two frames]

Pikachu

• 01:12:37
• 02:19:15 3DS [Only a 2 frame lead up, but the jumping animation matches perfectly]
• 01:10:51

Villager

• 01:07:18
• 02:20:25

Samus

• 00:57:29

Greninja

• 19:15:22 [it looks like it was recorded at a low fps here]

ZSS

• 09:14:10
• 09:13:11

Lucario

• 06:46:34 [Might be 3 frames but I'm pretty certain it's 2 frames based on his other jumps that I'll add later]

Mega Man

• 06:24:17
• 02:02:18
• 02:17:32 3DS
• 02:27:18 3DS
• 02:28:09 3DS [Mega man's animation seemed to change relative to one just before]
• 02:58:58 3DS [Megaman has the same weird animation as before on that platform]
• 03:18:37

TLink

• 04:46:59 [He might crouch for 3 frames]

Diddy Kong

• 04:47:34

Mario

• 04:41:20
• 01:26:25 [could be 3 frames of lag, note that he jumps backwards]

Fox

• 04:40:38
• 00:58:17
• 01:26:34
• 01:28:19 3DS [only one frame actually looks like he's crouching; but the standing phase has been pointed out in 3 different occasions]
• 02:55:47 WiiU [The crouching animation is different for the WiiU]
• 02:57:26 WiiU
• 02:58:13 3DS [a little hard to see]
• 02:59:27 [This implies that there's a landing lag of 1 frame as opposed to 2 in brawl. At least according to my testing of it.]

Kirby

• 02:50:59

 

[Thirdkoopa]

One thing I noticed about Greninja (Not sure if this is the right thread for this) is one of his attacks seem similar to meta-knight's down B but teleports you further.

 

[greenluigiman2]

It means you'll be looking at short combos from weak grounded attacks and maybe a few vertical combos... not much else. Without L-Cancelling or short landlag, you're not gonna have crazy CF knee-knee true combos or anything unfortunately. You probably won't even be able to do nair -> grab with anyone.

Think back to that Little Mac clip where he does an upward attack into upB. That's basically about the extent of the combos the game will have, which is kind of stale but at least a move in the right direction.

This is assuming Smash 4's fallspeed and landing lag are still similar to Brawl... which I don't think is the case.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

Falling speeds seem way faster than brawls in my opinion(not melee but not floaty either).

 

[Moczan]

Someone made a comparison of Fox's jump physics, it seems a bit slower than PM, but way faster than Brawl
http://youtu.be/xQqf9-LQFh8?t=59m42s

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Falling speeds seem way faster than brawls in my opinion(not melee but not floaty either).

I'm glad fall speed is between Brawl and Melee. Brawl was way too floaty for me, and I was personally uncomfortable with the characters in Melee falling like rocks. Smash 4 is doing that right for me. I don't know about landing lag though.

 

[ibmutt]

For anyone who read my previous post. Most of my timings are wrong but most of the frame data is consistent. The video editor struggled with the compression format of the Direct video.

For those who are interested in timings, I've redone my analysis from scratch. Now, I'm around 24 minutes in and I recorded over 90 different jumps - with screenshots this time. I have screenshots because I dumped my old video editor.

On each character's image galleries, I will post each frame of each character's jumps in time. Before or at some point during that, I will edit my post.

 

[D-idara]

By looking at the Direct, the fallspeeds are very natural on this game, no 10-ton anvils, and no feathers.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

The OP should be updated with everything thats been found.

 

[samsparta21]

Smash attacks seem really strong, especially compared to the other games. It's apparent in the Direct when he's talking about online, you see characters launching each other left and right but then he shows some Brawl footage and they're barely knocking each other back. Making attacks hit harder will certainly make it interesting, but I don't want every character to be like a golf ball.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Smash attacks seem really strong, especially compared to the other games. It's apparent in the Direct when he's talking about online, you see characters launching each other left and right but then he shows some Brawl footage and they're barely knocking each other back. Making attacks hit harder will certainly make it interesting, but I don't want every character to be like a golf ball.

I'm glad. Brawls smashes never seemed to kill. At least when I spam them hopefully they fixed that.

 

[Morbi]

I'm glad. Brawls smashes never seemed to kill. At least when I spam them hopefully they fixed that.

I agree, Smash attacks wouldn't really kill unless you were a heavy-hitter like Ike or Ganondorf. At least that was the case in my experience.

 

[ibmutt]

For anyone who read my previous post. Most of my timings are wrong but most of the frame data is consistent. The video editor struggled with the compression format of the Direct video.

For those who are interested in timings, I've redone my analysis from scratch. Now, I'm around 24 minutes in and I recorded over 90 different jumps - with screenshots this time. I have screenshots because I dumped my old video editor.

On each character's image galleries, I will post each frame of each character's jumps in time. Before or at some point during that, I will edit my post.

Characters on average seem to "crouch" for less frames than Brawl before they jump. The highest "crouch" time is 6 or 5 frames while the lowest is 2 frames. All the above assumes that my method was accurate. The method is a little tricky to explain for me. However, I will say that I validated my method using the frame data for some characters in SSBB. Accordingly, I'm fairly confident in it as a rule of thumb. Moving on, "crouch" is in inverted comma's because some character's don't ever visually crouch or they visually crouch for a fraction of the start up time. I don't know if this was case in previous installments. The "crouch findings" section is a little rough so there might be some mistakes. Hopefully, this is correct, useful or interesting.

Spoiler: Key for the Crouch findings

Crouches for X frames
Character Name

Spoiler: Key for the Crouch findings

• (minutes:seconds:tens of milliseconds) 3DS/WiiU [comment]

The time in brackets is usually and at most 5 frames before the crouch starts this is for a reason. I usually indicate when the lead up frames are shorter.

Spoiler: Crouching findings

Spoiler: Crouches for 5 frames

Bowser

• 16:02:17 [could be 6 frames, Bowser is airborne but standing in frame 5]
• 01:02:24 [could be frame 5 or 6]
• 02:03:03 3DS [5 or 6]
• 03:21:58 WiiU [could be 6 frames, Different animation to all the 3DS jumps]

Spoiler: Crouches for 4 frames

Zelda

• 02:20:29 3DS [She's clearly airborne on frame 5 and grounded on frame 4]
• 02:03:01 3DS [I'll treat it as further evidence for the time above]

Spoiler: Crouches for 3 frames

Yoshi

• 11:31:57 Wii U [clearly 3 frames]

Rosalina

• 12:04:59 [her "crouching" animation is really subtle]

WFT

• 4:44:46 Wii U [could be 4 frames] 02:04:59 [looks more like 3 frames crouching here; also there are no preliminary frames]
• 02:05:32 [tricky to look at she's also jumps backwards. She could be in contact with the ground on frame 4]
• 02:19:24 [she's clearly off the ground on frame 4]
• 02:20:00 [WFT jump is unclear here]
• 02:22:20 3DS [She's very clearly airborne on frame 4]
• 02:45:20 [She jumps backwards here and she looks like she on the ground on frame 4; only 4 lead up frames. She can be off the ground though]

Link

• 4:43:46 3DS
• 16:49:36 3DS [the time is 2 frames before]
• 16:12:14 WiiU [a little tricky to pick out without the above two examples]

DK

• 3DS 02:07:21

Luigi

• 02:23:45 [He could be crouching for 2 frames]
• 04:03:02
• 02:07:31[He's still airborne on frame 4]

Marth

• 16:37:16 3DS

Mario

• 16:42:36 3DS

Little Mac

• 16:25:33 3DS

Charizard

• 19:17:24 WiiU [could be recorded at another fps]

Greninja

• 19:25:28
• 19:04:18
• 19:12:52

Pit

• 02:15:29 [pretty clearly 3 frames]

Spoiler: Crouches for 2 frames

Mario

• 02:15:14 [Crouches for 2 or 3 frames; on third frame his feet are very close to the ground but jumping image matches]
• 02:19:52 [Mario is clearly on the ground for only two frames]

Pikachu

• 01:12:37
• 02:19:15 3DS [Only a 2 frame lead up, but the jumping animation matches perfectly]
• 01:10:51

Villager

• 01:07:18
• 02:20:25

Samus

• 00:57:29

Greninja

• 19:15:22 [it looks like it was recorded at a low fps here]

ZSS

• 09:14:10
• 09:13:11

Lucario

• 06:46:34 [Might be 3 frames but I'm pretty certain it's 2 frames based on his other jumps that I'll add later]

Mega Man

• 06:24:17
• 02:02:18
• 02:17:32 3DS
• 02:27:18 3DS
• 02:28:09 3DS [Mega man's animation seemed to change relative to one just before]
• 02:58:58 3DS [Megaman has the same weird animation as before on that platform]
• 03:18:37

TLink

• 04:46:59 [He might crouch for 3 frames]

Diddy Kong

• 04:47:34

Mario

• 04:41:20
• 01:26:25 [could be 3 frames of lag, note that he jumps backwards]

Fox

• 04:40:38
• 00:58:17
• 01:26:34
• 01:28:19 3DS [only one frame actually looks like he's crouching; but the standing phase has been pointed out in 3 different occasions]
• 02:55:47 WiiU [The crouching animation is different for the WiiU]
• 02:57:26 WiiU
• 02:58:13 3DS [a little hard to see]
• 02:59:27 [This implies that there's a landing lag of 1 frame as opposed to 2 in brawl. At least according to my testing of it.]

Kirby

• 02:50:59

Please ignore my previous two posts. My frame analysis was wrong. I checked the fps for the video on 4 separate programs and frame rate is 29.97 fps for each except the video editor I used which said 60 fps. Apparently, Youtube doesn't even support 60 fps yet. My method involves frame counting so the game needs to be recorded at 60/59.94 fps. My method worked fine for the SSBB videos because I personally recorded then at 59.94 fps. I apologize for wasting the time of whoever read my previous two posts.

 

[Chiroz]

Please ignore my previous two posts. My frame analysis was wrong. I checked the fps for the video on 4 separate programs and frame rate is 29.97 fps for each except the video editor I used which said 60 fps. Apparently, Youtube doesn't even support 60 fps yet. My method involves frame counting so the game needs to be recorded at 60/59.94 fps. My method worked fine for the SSBB videos because I personally recorded then at 59.94 fps. I apologize for wasting the time of whoever read my previous two posts.

Are you sure youtube doesn't have videos showing at 60 fps?

Not to sound like I am putting extra stress on you, but that would mean that any frame data analysis anyone makes from the youtube videos is basically distorted/wrong and that's actually something important to be sure about.

How sure are you that your programs are right? And how exactly did you determine whether or not youtube has 60 fps videos?

 

[RODO]

More analysis please

 

[ibmutt]

Are you sure youtube doesn't have videos showing at 60 fps?

Not to sound like I am putting extra stress on you, but that would mean that any frame data analysis anyone makes from the youtube videos is basically distorted/wrong and that's actually something important to be sure about.

How sure are you that your programs are right? And how exactly did you determine whether or not youtube has 60 fps videos?

I'm fine. I just thought that I needed to apologize.

I found some references which are shown below. I can't find an official statement right now.

Spoiler: Youtube videos 30 fps max

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN6CdNW4BWQ; Commentators say YouTube only shows videos in 30fps regardless of the raw format
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsBXYHfYgmI A work around to get 60 fps exists at the expense of audio quality. The example is here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMq-AVgX-w
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/youtube/MG9Iz7KoO4o It's limited to 30 fps because of storage constraints.
The assist trophies in 3DS demonstration move in every frame.
https://vimeo.com/help/compression Vimeo doesn't accept a frame rate greater than 30 fps either.
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/1722171?hl=en-GB An official statement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvvJwCX2J_A In the comments section, people basically agree that Youtube doesn't support a frame rate higher than 30 fps.
http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1xigbj/dailymotion_is_60fps_capable_more_master_race/
The Beta version of YouTube can handle 60 fps.

Spoiler: My downloaded direct runs at 30 fps

KMPlayer

• Minimum frame rate:30:000
• Maximum frame rate: 30.303
• Frame rate mode: variable
• To find this information: Press alt + j to open media information

VLC Player

• frame rate: 30
• To find this information: Press ctrl + i to open the current media information window. Select the codec tab.

Cyberlink PowerDirector [editor I now use]

• frame rate: 30
• To find this information: import the direct video, right click on the video in the media window, select properties

Corel Video Studio Pro

• frame rate is 30.000
• To find this information: import the direct video, right click on the video in the media window, select properties

Lightworks [the editor I used]

• Looking over it again, the native frame rate is 30 fps. I must have set the output frame rate to 60. The direct video was made twice as fast to keep up. Which would explain why all my timings were off in Lightworks. The video is working fine in the program now.

I say the downloaded direct video runs at 30 fps because five separate, so hopefully independent, programs say the frame rate is around 30 fps.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

It seems that fox jab to U-smash style combos are back.

The first hit of Luma's jab pops Luigi up just like foxes in smash64/melee. I wonder if they restored the pop up effect to foxes jab.
Oh and this is from the rosalina trailer, not the direct.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

It seems that fox jab to U-smash style combos are back.
View attachment 13886
The first hit of Luma's jab pops Luigi up just like foxes in smash64/melee. I wonder if they restored the pop up effect to foxes jab.
Oh and this is from the rosalina trailer, not the direct.

I don't think this is Luma's U-Smash. I think it's Rosalina and Luma's Up-Tilt.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

I don't think this is Luma's U-Smash. I think it's Rosalina and Luma's Up-Tilt.

I know that isint a U-smash. It's the third hit of the jab combo. I just said the jab pops up so you could follow up with an U-smash.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I know that isint a U-smash. It's the third hit of the jab combo. I just said the jab pops up so you could follow up with an U-smash.

Oh. I'm sorry. I'll just stop commenting now.

 

[BigHairyFart]

So I just noticed that in the Direct, we can see Samus wiggle out of tumble when Rosalina is using her Final Smash. You can see it at about 0:25 here:
http://youtu.be/KrQnewXb2V0?t=24s
EDIT: You can also see Sonic do it at about the same time.

 

[Shariq]

I really cant wait until E3. Especially with the Best Buy demos. Unfortunately I don't live in America so I wont get to play the demo. Its sort of good because I want my first experience playing Smash 4 to be on my own Wii U. Even though I will play it on the 3DS first
Anyway the reason I'm excited for the Best Buy demos is because of all the details and footage we will get. Everyones preparing and getting organized on what they will focus on and it is just so damn HYPE!!

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I really cant wait until E3. Especially with the Best Buy demos. Unfortunately I don't live in America so I wont get to play the demo. Its sort of good because I want my first experience playing Smash 4 to be on my own Wii U. Even though I will play it on the 3DS first
Anyway the reason I'm excited for the Best Buy demos is because of all the details and footage we will get. Everyones preparing and getting organized on what they will focus on and it is just so damn HYPE!!

Yup. I can already imagine all the Youtube videos we'll see of people playing at Best Buy and the E3 floor(assuming the game is playable at E3). I'm most excited for the demos because (hopefully) people from Smashboards will get their hands on it and be able to describe the gameplay, especially to see if hitstun cancelling is truly gone. Also, sorry you can't play the demos.

 

[victinivcreate1]

It seems that everyone is saying that this game has no lengthy combos, boo hoo. Well put it like this.

In Melee, a lot of the lengthy combos came from a grab. If you don't understand what I mean, I'll give an example.

Version 2.0 A Marth Combo Video featuring Mew2King

Skip to 3:28-3:41.

Now while yes I know Mew2King is frame perfect, that's not the point. That entire combo started because of a throw. Now SSB4 is obviously not as quick as Melee, and doesn't have L Cancelling or wavedashing, but surely there are decent combos, longer than two hitters that weve seen so far. I reckon the maximum combo string we could pull off is probably five or six hits. And none of you factored in Stale Move Negation. For example. In Melee and Brawl, the staler Marth's forward air was, the easier it was to combo with. Many of Marth's up throw up tilt combos were effective because of the staling of the move. MK's combo game also enjoys having stale moves to extend the combo as long as possible. There are somany possibilities for the combo games of SSB4.

 

[BigHairyFart]

doesn't have L Cancelling

Where are you getting this information? L-Cancelling has neither been proved nor disproved.

 

[Riposte__]

I made a post on the Wii Fit Trainer's Character page on her move list but for all the card work that went into it, no one eve commented on it. If we can get a some hype for that, I'll analyze hours and hours of videos to decipher and find their move list and how they work.

 

[LancerStaff]

Where are you getting this information? L-Cancelling has neither been proved nor disproved.

No, but it's doubtful Sakurai would ever bring it back since it spat in the face of the "simpler is better" mentality of Sakurai's.

 

[BigHairyFart]

No, but it's doubtful Sakurai would ever bring it back since it spat in the face of the "simpler is better" mentality of Sakurai's.

Yes, but this game is clearly leaning closer to Melee than to Brawl, so there is still a good chance of it returning.
Regardless, you can't go around saying that it's not back when, in fact, we have no clue whether it's back or not. The earliest we'll know is when we get our own hands on it at E3/Best Buy.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think its fair to say its leaning closer to melee than to brawl.

It's leaning closer to melee than brawl did, but your wording is definitely arguable at best and completely wrong at worst.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Wait, so we agree that this game will have 5-6 hit combo strings? Nothing too over the top, like SSB64 and its 0-death combos lol.

 

[Riposte__]

I hope there are 0 to death combos.

 

[victinivcreate1]

That would be awesome. But Sakurai will probably never do a 64 again. And aren't those 0-deaths only possible because of L (Z) Cancelling? As much as I'm hoping for L-Cancelling to return, I doubt it will. And to calm the L cancelling haters,there should be a new downside that if you miss an l-cancel, double the landing lag.

 

[Shaya]

I'm pretty sure I can 0-death people as pikachu in smash64 with relative consistency without L-cancelling.
Dat up tilt/up smash multiple times into uair uair uair across the stage into back air for the stock

The likelihood is that there will be ways to kill people quickly, remember, gimps, chain grabs, etc?

 

[victinivcreate1]

In Brawl at least, barring ICs and DDD at a wall, no chaingrab was guaranteed 0-death. As for gimps, you can't base your entire game off gimps if say you can't even get the opponent offstage to begin with, or your character has a bad recovery and has a potential of gimping himself every time he/she/it tries to gimp, or that gimping in Smash4 may be a riskier option, considering its harder to bait edgehogs considering you can be knocked off.

And true. Pikachu, the original Meta Knight. XDDD

 

[Shaya]

Hmm,

Marth has fthrow spike on everyone at 0%, which you may consider a chaingrab, and can kill characters with poor vertical recoveries (i.e. spacies)
Pikachu can 0-death some of his extreme chain grab characters if he finishes it with a Quick-attack lock into upsmash (very very hard, ESAM isn't even consistent with it, but done properly is definitely killing you)
etc etc, I'm sure you're generalising, so i'm being nitpicky for no real reason

And characters for sure can play a gimp-centric game. Watch Mew2King in melee, he stays next to the ledge for an entire matches for a reason, even if he doesn't have a projectile to throw at you.
The notion of "you making mistakes" is always a bit awkward in competitive discussions, its generally assumed you shouldn't make mistakes unless what you're doing isn't a "real thing" ('gimmicks'). We don't know how the ledge will go properly yet. If they've removed sweet spotting the ledge (in terms of making it harder than brawl), even if you will grab onto it no matter what, well timed ledge drop attacks and on stage edgeguards will be very powerful.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes, but this game is clearly leaning closer to Melee than to Brawl, so there is still a good chance of it returning.
Regardless, you can't go around saying that it's not back when, in fact, we have no clue whether it's back or not. The earliest we'll know is when we get our own hands on it at E3/Best Buy.

Looks more like Brawl, with fast rolling/shields, Brawl airdodges, and Brawl's generally more fluid controls. I'd say Brawl + combos is pretty accurate from what we've seen since Wavedashing is as good as dead.