Game Play and Technical Analysis

[Revven]

I noticed Bowser's back air in one of the clips from the Direct is no longer with his shell but rather it's both his legs kicking back sideways similar to Kirby's Bair.

I don't know the timestamp but I know I saw it.

Also Charizard has a new forward air most definitely and a new back throw (or the animation of the back throw is very slightly altered).

 

[Shudouken]

So I'm going through the smash direct frame by frame and noticed Megaman doing a Waveland on Jungle Japes

He's clearly facing to the right before landing and during the dash of the waveland to the left, he turns around.

Uploaded the snippet of the video for you to see:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47208810/waveland.mp4

 

[Pazzo.]

Your link isn't working for me.. :/

 

[Revven]

No that's not a waveland. Falls/jumps seem to carry your momentum onto the ground when you land which induces a slide. There would have to be directional air dodging for a waveland to occur which we already know there isn't, it's the Brawl air dodge.

 

[Shudouken]

Your link isn't working for me.. :/

Why.. It's a dropbox link, it should work, you might need to right-click save as

No that's not a waveland. Falls/jumps seem to carry your momentum onto the ground when you land which induces a slide. There would have to be directional air dodging for a waveland to occur which we already know there isn't, it's the Brawl air dodge.

Hmm.. Dunno, looks to be a pretty wide slide to me, maybe they made wavelanding/dashing intentionally possible even with brawl air dodges

 

[Khao]

I noticed Bowser's back air in one of the clips from the Direct is no longer with his shell but rather it's both his legs kicking back sideways similar to Kirby's Bair.

I don't know the timestamp but I know I saw it.

Also Charizard has a new forward air most definitely and a new back throw (or the animation of the back throw is very slightly altered).

Bowser seems to have gotten the most changes out of every veteran, might as well be considered a new character!

I also noticed that both Link's and Donkey Kong's dash attack changed, into a jump slash and a rolling attack respectively.

 

[DaDavid]

But what would be the input for wavelanding/dashing? I'm still putting my bets on momentum carrying, which is good news either way.

 

[Pazzo.]

Why.. It's a dropbox link, it should work, you might need to right-click save as


Hmm.. Dunno, looks to be a pretty wide slide to me, maybe they made wavelanding/dashing intentionally possible even with brawl air dodges

Alright, I'll do that.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

This looks to me like...

...landing.

 

[LunchPolice]

I'm super glad to see Mario can't immediately air dodge out of hit-stun - should make defensive play a lot less lame. Will definitely be watching this thread, good finds guys!

 

[freesubs]

I can't help but think that the smoke trail a character has once hit has to do with their hitstun, and once the smoke clears, the hitstun is over. Props to this guy http://redd.it/22n41a

 

[KoRLumen]

Bowser seems to have gotten the most changes out of every veteran, might as well be considered a new character!

I also noticed that both Link's and Donkey Kong's dash attack changed, into a jump slash and a rolling attack respectively.

Hopefully ganondorf gets the same treatment!

 

[LancerStaff]

Anybody notice they took out 'random' moves like DDD's Dees and Olimar's random Pikmin?

 

[210stuna]

In your "Other" list the first one says "KOs now have a firey graphic that plays on the person who KO'd the opponent"

Which happened in all of the Smash's, but not once they were knocked off the top.
The either had the star animation or the appear on screen animation, and thus far we have not seen that when someone is killed off the top.

Either they have been removed, or not programmed yet.

Here's for the latter.
[face_coffee]

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Hopefully ganondorf gets the same treatment!

Link's dash attack always swung in about that arc; I think he just has a bit more flair to the animation now. With DK, I thought he was just doing a roll out of the run (easy to do in any smash game, shield while running and then input a roll at max speed so the shield animation never comes up). If that really was his dash attack, that would be quite the buff as DK's dash attack in all previous games is really, really bad.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Here's some character specific stuff from the direct.

5:30 - The hop Sonic does at the start of his side-b is much faster than in Brawl.
5:33 - Samus has a new move where she kicks forward like her nair, but then she turns around right after hitting WFT and kicks at Sonic with a new animation. She does this again at 16:40
5:35 - Dedede has a new bair. He swings his hammer instead of kicking.

 

[Revven]

Link's dash attack always swung in about that arc; I think he just has a bit more flair to the animation now. With DK, I thought he was just doing a roll out of the run (easy to do in any smash game, shield while running and then input a roll at max speed so the shield animation never comes up). If that really was his dash attack, that would be quite the buff as DK's dash attack in all previous games is really, really bad.

It's gotta be a dash attack because there's no invincibility frames like every roll has (as in, you don't see the transparency effect over DK when he does the roll).

 

[Khao]

Link's dash attack always swung in about that arc; I think he just has a bit more flair to the animation now. With DK, I thought he was just doing a roll out of the run (easy to do in any smash game, shield while running and then input a roll at max speed so the shield animation never comes up). If that really was his dash attack, that would be quite the buff as DK's dash attack in all previous games is really, really bad.

I don't think DK's dodging, when you do a rolling dodge, either forward or backwards, you always end up facing the opposite direction of your roll, and here, DK rolls forward and ends up facing straight ahead.

Edit: Also, what Revven said.

 

[DaDavid]

Yeah I came to point out the DK dash attack. Watching it in .25 speed makes it fairly clear it's not a roll.

 

[TobiasXK]

Fox does an shdl in the clip @1:55 and has to put his blaster away

in the clip starting @4:33 there's a pull to the right on Villager when he turns around from running that looked weird to me

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

I've added a few more gifs to my post above. Is there any way we can get that in the OP?

 

[Big-Cat]

If the smoke trail is to indicate hitstun, then that tells me that choosing to air dodge or not is going to be very important for mixups.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Adding a gif here so I can add it to my original post:

Greninja combo:

 

[SynikaL]

Not true. The mechanic of the dash itself is integral in the function of dash dancing. The removal of ending lag, and reduction in its range, imply a shift in the direction of melee's dash. The fluidity of movement and dashing could suggest a return of dash dancing. Not to mention the pikachu gif and this one come closer to a dash dance than anything found in Brawl.

Dash Dancing is canceling the initial, start up frames of a Dash into the initial frames of another Dash in the opposite direction. That is not happening in those GIFS. "Ending lag" has nothing to do with DDing as our community currently understands it. Maybe we'll get something like it, and these GIFS suggest that.

Also, lighten up a little in general

I don't get it.

What? Dashdances aren't useful if they don't have a wide interval. See: Melee Sheik.

However, I agree with everyone else you said. Too early to tell for sure.

I misspoke. My earlier post on the subject suggests I know this. I was just having a hard time articulating what I was looking at regarding Pikachu.

 

[[TSON]]

About Dash-Dancing...

It really just looks like you can turn around and stop faster than before, you can either visibly see the character stopping then start running again on the opposite direction, or just plainly see them turning around with an animation. This goes true for every clip I've seen that are posted as "proof" of Dash Dance returning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_z4u74cHUU is the best example I can find. Watch the Pikachu clip - I see no turning animation, I'm seeing initial dash and then dash in another direction.

 

[Wanderer from Roseyard]

Just an assumption, but gliding could be gone, too (unless it was quickly shown in the Greninja trailer). It's just suspicious that the ability was shared by very few characters to begin with, and now one of them, Pit, has lost it.

Edit: I could have sworn I posted this in a different thread that only had one page of replies, huh... I'm finally losing my marbles!

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Kind of on the subject of dash dancing, in the direct it looks like Mega Man foxtrots into the Yellow Devil here

 

[[TSON]]

Kind of on the subject of dash dancing, in the direct it looks like Mega Man foxtrots into the Yellow Devil here

Yep. Same deal, dash startup is cancelable into dash in either direction, allowing for foxtrotting & dash dancing. Good catch.

 

[mimgrim]

Just posted this in the "things confirmed" thread, but why not here too? I captured a gif real quick from the direct. Things I noticed. Mario's speed is pretty impressive. His aerials come out quickly, and there's a good deal of aerial lateral movement, suggesting air movement may be more momentum based than in Brawl. There is little lag on landing. Also, more importantly, look at the dash at the beginning. More evidence that dash dancing may be returning?

I'd say the most important thing is that roll. Look how fast Olimar reacts out of it. Meaning it isn't just Mac who has fast rolls now. That's pretty awesome if rolls end up becoming a legit movement option.

So I'm going through the smash direct frame by frame and noticed Megaman doing a Waveland on Jungle Japes

He's clearly facing to the right before landing and during the dash of the waveland to the left, he turns around.

Uploaded the snippet of the video for you to see:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47208810/waveland.mp4

Looks more like momentum is being kept instead.

There would have to be directional air dodging for a waveland to occur which we already know there isn't, it's the Brawl air dodge.

Brawl E3 demo. Non directional air dodge, but a form of wavelanding still existed through attacks. So it's definitely possible to have without Melee's air dodge. But, of course, it was removed after the demo.

Anybody notice they took out 'random' moves like DDD's Dees and Olimar's random Pikmin?

Here's hoping Peach can always pull out a Stitch Face then. xD

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Anyone notice how the characters careen through the air wildly when hit with an attack that sends them upward? Like in that a Sonic "Combo", look at Marth after he gets hit by the Uair, and when Little Mac Uppercuts Link. I've never seen the characters fly around like that, and when they do it leads to a combo.

I don't know if It has been noticed yet. Can't recall if characters tumbled like that in Brawl.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Yep. Same deal, dash startup is cancelable into dash in either direction, allowing for foxtrotting & dash dancing. Good catch.

Not exactly. IIRC In Brawl you could dash dance and foxtrot, the timing was just different for both techniques. To dash dance you would have to turn around right away which basically just made it worthless. To foxtrot you had to cancel your initial dash animation as it ended.

Basically, one technique doesn't guarantee the other in this case.

 

[mimgrim]

Looks like the Marth could have escaped that combo, as it looks like he went into tumble animation before the Dair hit. So I wouldn't put too much stock that it will always lead to combos when attacked like that.

 

[Leonyx]

If the indication that you're in hitstun is based on that smoke that appears, perhaps we can look at previous combos shown off in trailers to see if they were real combos?

 

[Chiroz]

Link was shown to have a zair, I don't remember which trailer it was, likely a character reveal.
Nevermind, I found it. Yeah, zairs haven't been shown yet.


Oh, alright. I believe you, it's just that, that's where I noticed a possible dash dance the most so I was just assuming. xP

Samus still has her same grab (can be seen at 5:30 in the newest direct). We don't know if it can still be used in the air and whether it tethers or not, but assuming they don't as fact is wrong. That list won't be taken seriously like that.




Smoke = Hitstun visualization is a very nice theory. I've been trying to disprove it watching the direct very closely and until now I've been unable to.

Things I've noticed:

1. There's definitely longer
and shorter smoke trails - Sometimes when launched a character might only have 2 puffs of smoke while other times the same character might have 4

2. There's definitely longer and shorter durations - sometimes the smoke vanishes instantly, sometime it lasts 1-2 seconds.

I haven't been able to tell if a character can't act out of it because they are just so short in duration but character's can definitely act out of it almost immediately after it ends (which leads to believe the theory might be right).




Edit: For those who don't believe the game is much faster than Brawl and even has faster attack animations than Melee should watch Samus play. At 5:30 she does her grab and almost immediately acts out of it (even though she misses it!!!). Or watch Bowser Up-Smash or F-Smash and almost instantly jump to chase his target instead of having to wait for his body to come back down and settle (like in previous games).

Attack animations aren't the end-all be all of a game's speed (physics and momentum are a huge part too), but if they weren't a huge factor then L-Cancel wouldn't be important.

(And let's not get started on how fast rolls seem to have become).




Edit 2: Lucarios Up-B now seems to have 0 landing lag and at 21:00 he is able to follow up his own attack with an Up-B into a down tilt (he doesn't even walk, he just chases with Up-B). Or, it could just be that his Up-B now ends in a sliding kick which looks like his down-tilt.

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

On the topic of Up-B's, a lot of them seem to have "finisher" hits now. Zamus and Little Mac especially. What do you guys think this means for ending combos?

 

[[TSON]]

Anyone notice how the characters careen through the air wildly when hit with an attack that sends them upward? Like in that a Sonic "Combo", look at Marth after he gets hit by the Uair, and when Little Mac Uppercuts Link. I've never seen the characters fly around like that, and when they do it leads to a combo.

I don't know if It has been noticed yet. Can't recall if characters tumbled like that in Brawl.

They do.

Not exactly. IIRC In Brawl you could dash dance and foxtrot, the timing was just different for both techniques. To dash dance you would have to turn around right away which basically just made it worthless. To foxtrot you had to cancel your initial dash animation as it ended.

Basically, one technique doesn't guarantee the other in this case.

You can see a clear dashdance in the footage from the MM reveal video. Allowing any-time dashdancing would allow any-time fox-trotting, just not the other way around.

If the indication that you're in hitstun is based on that smoke that appears, perhaps we can look at previous combos shown off in trailers to see if they were real combos?

Smoke does not necessarily mean you're still in hitstun, it means you still have knockback.

 

[Renji64]

The only thing i'm worried about is hitstun canceling if that is out i will be happy.

 

[TLMSheikant]

At 4:50 of the Direct, I spotted Peach has her Melee second jump back.

Marth stuff:

*His fair seems to have melee range.
*Fsmash is huge.
*New spotdodge.
*Neutral B and Side B seem to be Brawl's.

 

[[TSON]]

At 4:50 of the Direct, I spotted Peach has her Melee second jump back.

The anim movement is the same as Brawl, I just think the dress is moving differently - more like Melee in that regard. You had me really excited for a second lmao

 

[Jalio_the_Brave]

Is it me or does the 3ds version seem more floaty than the Wii U version? Or am I just crazy?