Social "Friends being fought for!" Ike General Discussion

[Ultima777]

Ike is a lot better now. I have less trouble with match ups I did before. I think he could use some more improvements still, but as he is now I say they did a good job.

 

[san.]

At low/mid percents, short hop fair true combos into jab and dtilt.

Fair->Dtilt->Fair
Fair->jab->Dtilt->Fair

Can mixup with nair to extend the combo even further.

Probably going to update the guide tonight.

 

[Mario766]

I tried doing the Fair -> dtilt -> Fair combo, and one time Fair tripped causing a true combo.

Other times, it didn't register.

 

[Silver Forte]

Can Ike still act of quick draw in the air if he hits someone? I read somewhere they changed it back, I hope not.

 

[Ultima777]

Can Ike still act of quick draw in the air if he hits someone? I read somewhere they changed it back, I hope not.

No I just played and did this. You can still act out of it.

 

[san.]

I tried doing the Fair -> dtilt -> Fair combo, and one time Fair tripped causing a true combo.

Other times, it didn't register.

I tried it on Sheik in training mode at 24%. She's one of the easiest to combo so it probably won't be true for most, but will hit against most defensive maneuvers that are vulnerable for the first few frames.

 

[Ekans647]

I just played my first match with Ike since the patch and holy crap he's fast! I love the speed of his attacks.

 

[-RedX-]

SH Fair won't autocancel if you hit 2 or more things, aka Rosa and Luma. Something to watch out for.

 

[san.]

People are duly focused on fair, when bair was close to being buffed almost as much.

The 13->14% difference is fairly significant in:

• Knockback
• Shield stun
• Shield damage
• Shield pushback

Since Ike can ledge release bair and make it back, unlike Brawl, bair is a potent edgeguard even from a hanging position. You can also kill randomly at low 100s just like Brawl. It's easier to spam because it deals so much shield damage and pushback now, think I took off almost half of a shield with a fresh one before.

 

[Mario766]

Back-Air was always good, but F-Air got such a huge overhaul, it got overshadowed.

 

[-RedX-]

I am eager to know how ridiculous Dtilt is on shields personally. Unlike most fast Dtilts, Ike's does a solid 9% when fresh so this most likely means better on-shield data along with Bair.

 

[LonkQ]

It's like we got a Roy Dtilt, I love it.

 

[Heartstring]

People are duly focused on fair, when bair was close to being buffed almost as much.

The 13->14% difference is fairly significant in:

• Knockback
• Shield stun
• Shield damage
• Shield pushback

Since Ike can ledge release bair and make it back, unlike Brawl, bair is a potent edgeguard even from a hanging position. You can also kill randomly at low 100s just like Brawl. It's easier to spam because it deals so much shield damage and pushback now, think I took off almost half of a shield with a fresh one before.

Yeah, I'm more a fan of the Bair changes than the Fair change. Fair still feels limited in this game because of the hitbox nerf from brawl.

Also, you can't ledge release bair if you're running Diagonal Aether, because of it's reduced vertical distance. It's a shame but ultimately I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.
Also, I THINK the ledgegrab box on Diagonal Aether is smaller than the other Aether's. if someone wants to check that out for me, that would be great.

I am eager to know how ridiculous Dtilt is on shields personally. Unlike most fast Dtilts, Ike's does a solid 9% when fresh so this most likely means better on-shield data along with Bair.

Apparently it's 8%, but its been brought up from 7%.
Also, it's an absolutely beastly move. on shield/neutral is functions just like Marths dtilt does, except hitting vertically. Sets up for a nice read for covering their landing...I guess it actually IS roy's dtilt lol

 

[Nysyarc]

Also, you can't ledge release bair if you're running Diagonal Aether, because of it's reduced vertical distance. It's a shame but ultimately I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

I don't know, I'm personally not a big fan of the diagonal Aether. Apart from the lower vertical distance making overall recovery not actually that much better, it also makes it much more difficult and dangerous to try and clear an opponent away from the immediate area above the ledge, since just dropping straight down and using it will hurl it well into the stage. On top of that you can only grab the ledge twice with diagonal Aether before just falling right past it, versus 5 times with standard Aether.

Plus there's combo-ing standard Aether after Dthrow (or Dtilt now), which I still find uncomfortable to do because of how bad it was in Brawl, but it actually does work now and diagonal Aether has, in my experience, fewer offensive uses.

 

[TeeJay308]

Regarding the DTilt into FAir combo, can anyone provide footage of this registering as a true combo in training mode? I can't for the life of me get it to work... Same goes for DTilt into Aether. Maybe it only works on certain characters.

 

[Nysyarc]

Regarding the DTilt into FAir combo, can anyone provide footage of this registering as a true combo in training mode? I can't for the life of me get it to work... Same goes for DTilt into Aether. Maybe it only works on certain characters.

After some brief testing, it seems to register as a combo between 40% to 60% on heavy characters and fast-fallers, with the attacking Ike being at 0%. For example against another Ike and Ganondorf it combo'd at 40%, against Fox and Falco it combo'd starting at 40% up to a little over 60%. Obviously these ranges will vary in a real match because of rage effect and vectoring.

That's just Dtilt to Fair, though it seems Dtilt to Aether works just about the same way.

 

[TKD]

Regarding the DTilt into FAir combo, can anyone provide footage of this registering as a true combo in training mode? I can't for the life of me get it to work... Same goes for DTilt into Aether. Maybe it only works on certain characters.

Bait an airdodge or landing option

btw I think dtilt is nuts in Yoshi's thanks to the slants, specially vs spacie sidebs. I finished a set yesterday with it into full hop and delayed uair vs the airdodge response

also i think this is the wrong thread for this discussion

 

[TeeJay308]

Those are definitely options, but I've heard people say FAir was guaranteed after DTilt now. I actually managed to hit it as a true combo just once in about 20 minutes of trying on Bowser Jr., while he was at 40%. Maybe it's better to go for your suggested mixups after DTilt, because the timing to get it to combo seems really hard.

Kinda bummed out by the fact that the jab-combo is still not 100% consistent on all characters... Got my hands on a copy of Brawl last weekend, and did some Ike testing. I actually never really played Brawl all too much, and when I did I never even touched Ike, so I was unaware of how powerful he was in that game. The jab-combo did a whopping 16% damage, and could be extended by crouch-cancelling the first hit (potentially dealing up to 24% damage IIRC). It actually killed at a certain percentage as well, IIRC. Also, dem sound effects, sweet jesus. Everytime Ike hits someone with a move in Brawl, it sounds like a car crash or something, lol.

Now, I don't even want the jab to be as good as it was in Brawl, but at least let it hit with a 100% consistency against all characters. I don't want to get punished for finishing the string ON HIT.

 

[Heartstring]

I don't know, I'm personally not a big fan of the diagonal Aether. Apart from the lower vertical distance making overall recovery not actually that much better, it also makes it much more difficult and dangerous to try and clear an opponent away from the immediate area above the ledge, since just dropping straight down and using it will hurl it well into the stage. On top of that you can only grab the ledge twice with diagonal Aether before just falling right past it, versus 5 times with standard Aether.

Plus there's combo-ing standard Aether after Dthrow (or Dtilt now), which I still find uncomfortable to do because of how bad it was in Brawl, but it actually does work now and diagonal Aether has, in my experience, fewer offensive uses.

Yeah, I can't really argue with that. I think the diagonal is worth most of the sacrifices, as the ledge-stall thing isn't REALLY a problem as you cant ledge stall properly anyway because of the lack of invincibility from a regrab. But there's definite upsides/downsides to each custom

SEE THIS IS WHY I LOVE CUSTOMS. THEYRE SO BALANCED.

 

[Sol0ke]

So guys...what's up with this DI/Vectoring/Whatever business

 

[Vinylic.]

Vectoring is no more. It's all DI now.

So, uh.

Calling Mr. Doom.

 

[Ekans647]

Vectoring is no more. It's all DI now.

So, uh.

Calling Mr. Doom.

VI was removed?

 

[san.]

Looked through @Dantarion 's stuff, going to pretty it up later, but these were my preliminary looks at it:

tl;dr for things we didn't quite know just yet
-Fair hitbox size increase and hitbox shifted slightly lower vertically. Beginning autocancel changed from 5 to 2 frames
-Dtilt ever so slightly shorter range
-Range increased on dair with some shifts
-Possible ending lag decrease on dash attack
-Dsmash more horizontal knockback
-Possible ending lag decrease on down smash
-Possible ending lag decrease and random tweaks on some specials

Source: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore/index.php?char=ike&mode=diff104

Ike frame data

Jab1: game_50
Startup: 4
Lasts: 2
Angle: 0x41
Base knockback: 0x64
WKB: 0x32
Knockback Growth: 0
Size: 3.5, X:0, Y:10, Z:13

Jab2: game_51
Startup: 3
Lasts: 2
Angle: 0x41
Base knockback: 0x50
WKB: 0x28
Knockback Growth: 0
Sizes:
3.5- X:0 Y:8 Z:17.5
4.5- X:0 Y:8 Z:8

Jab3: game_52
Startup: 7 (used to be 8)
Lasts: 3
Difference from 1.0.3: Additional 4 frame timer for unk_0DF(1.000000, ) from unk_0DF(0.500000, )
Angle: 0x2D
Base knockback: 0x64
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x3C
Sizes:
4- X:0 Y:12 Z:-2
4- X:0 Y:9 Z:-2
4- X:0 Y:5 Z:-2
2.5- X:0 Y:1 Z:0

Dash Attack: game_56
Startup: 18
Lasts: 5 (5% sourspot appears after frame 20)
Difference from 1.0.3: Some expressions were removed, to me the hitbox feels better.
Angle: 0x169
Base knockback: 0x61
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0
Sizes:
6(10%) X:0 Y:8 Z:17.5
4(8%) X:0 Y:8 Z:10.5
2(5%) X:0 Y:12 Z:-1

Forward Tilt: game_57
Startup: 15
Lasts: 2
Angle: 0x169
Base knockback: 0x61
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x1E
Sizes:
4- X:0 Y:12 Z:-6
4- X:0 Y:6 Z:-6.5
4- X:0 Y:-1 Z:-7
game_58 and game_5B seem to be the same

Up Tilt: game_5C
Startup: 11
Lasts: 8 (strong hitbox 14% 11-13, weak hitbox 10% 14-19)
Angle: 0x5F (sweetspot) 0x55 (sourspot)
Base knockback: 0x5A
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x32
Sizes:
5(14%) X:0 Y: 12 Z:0
5(10%) X:0 Y:10.5 Z:-1
Some values at the end are different between the sweetspot and sourspot

Down Tilt: game_5D
Startup: 7
Lasts: 2
Angle: 0x50 (from 0x169)
Base knockback: 0x46 (from 0x5A)
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0
Differences from 1.0.3: hitbox, knockback, angle, and damage changes (7->8 damage)
Sizes: 3.8 (from 4)
3.8- X:0 Y:0 (used to be 14) Z:-2
3.8- X:0 Y:9.5 Z:-2
3.8- X:0 Y:5 Z:-2
3.8- X:0 Y:13.5 (used to be 0) Z:-2

Forward Smash: game_5F
Startup: 25 (charge), 31(hit)
Lasts: 6 (31-33 for 19% damage above him, 33-36 for the 22% damage sweetspot and 17% damage sourspot)
Angle: 0x169 (sourspot: 0x3C)
Base knockback: 0x5A 19%, 0x56 for sweetspot and sourspot
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x28
Sizes:
19%
4 X:0 Y:6 Z:-3
3 X:0 Y:11 Z:-3
22%
5 X:0 Y:2 Z:-4
5.7 X:0 Y:7 Z:-4
17%
5.5 X:0 Y:11 Z:-4
19% covers the sourspot hitbox for the first few frames
Some expressions were removed (less ending lag?)


game_62, no clue what it is, had some parts of its expression removed. Less ending lag on something random I guess?


Up Smash: game_63
Startup: 12(charge) 25(hit)
Lasts: 7 (25-30 sweetspot) then the sweetspot hitboxes disappear, then 2 more frames for the 10% soutspot
Angle: 0x52, 0x4B, 0x46, 0x41, 0x41(sourspot)
Base knockback: 0x56 (0x55 sourspot)
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x32
Sizes:
Sweetspot: 5 X:0 Y:0,4,7.5,11 Z:-2,-2,-2,0
Sourspot: 6, X:0 Y:7 Z:-16


game_64, no clue what it is, had some parts of its expression removed. Less ending lag on something random I guess?


Down Smash: game_65
Startup: 6(charge) 13(hit1) 32(hit2)
Lasts: 3(hit1) 5(hit2, 32-34 sweetspot, 35-37 sourspot)
Damage: 14% (hit1) 17%(hit2 sweetspot) 8%(hit2 sourspot)
Differences from 1.0.3: more horizontal angle, tons of expressions removed (less ending lag?)
Angle: 0x30 (from 0x34), 0x3D (sourspot, from 0x41)
Base knockback: 0x61
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x28, 0x1E(sourspot)
Sizes:
hit1: 4.2 X:0 Y:15 Z:0
hit2: 4.2 X:0 Y:15 Z:0
hit2 sourspot: 3 X:0 Y:12 Z:0

Many expressions were removed, so good chance of less ending lag


game_67, no clue what it is, had some parts of its expression removed. Less ending lag on something random I guess?


Neutral Air: game_68
Startup: 6(autocancel end) 12(hitbox begins)
Lasts: 12-22 (sweetspot), 22-28(hitboxes change to 6 damage), then I see an ending at 64 frames, can't exactly tell what it does there
Damage: 9%
Differences from 1.0.3: None
Angle: 0x46
Base knockback: 0x69
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x23
Sizes:
4 X:0,0,0 Y:12,8,4 Z:0,0,0


Forward Air: game_69
Startup: 2(autocancel end used to be 5 frames) 12(hitbox begins)
Lasts: 16-21, then I see something at frame 42, probably autocancel frames
Damage: 12%
Differences from 1.0.3: additional unk_0DF(0.75) in the beginning, unk_0DF(1.0) after the hitbox ends, and animation start from 5 frames to 2 frames. These have something to do with speeding it up. Sizes increased from 4.5 to 5 and vertically shifted downward
Angle: 0x169
Base knockback: 0x64
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x1E
Sizes:
5 (used to be 4.5), X:0,0,0 Y:9.0(used to be 9.5),6.2(used to be 6.5),4 Z:-2,-2,-2


Back Air: game_6A
Startup: 3(autocancel end) 7(hitbox begins)
Lasts: 7-10, then I see something at frame 35, probably autocancel frames
Damage: 14% (from 13%)
Differences from 1.0.3: +1 damage to 14%
Angle: 0x169
Base knockback: 0x64
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x1E
Sizes:
7.5 X:0 Y:9 Z:-9
6.0 X:0 Y:0 Z:-6


Up Air: game_6B
Startup: 6(autocancel end) 13(hitbox begins)
Lasts: 13-30, then I see something at frame 51, probably autocancel frames
Damage: 11%
Differences from 1.0.3: None
Angle: 0x50
Base knockback: 0x64
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x28
Sizes:
5 X:0,0,0,0 Y:12,8,4,0 Z:0,0,0,0


Down Air: game_6C
Startup: 5(autocancel end) 16(hitbox begins)
Lasts: 16-18, then autocancels at frame 48
Damage: 15%
Differences from 1.0.3: Size increased for spike and "sourspot", vertical shift to hitboxes
Angle: 0x32 (spike), 0x10E
Base knockback: 0x64 (spike), 0x5A
WKB: 0
Knockback Growth: 0x1E (spike), 0x14
Sizes:
Spike: 6.0 (used to be 4.8!), X:0 Y:2(used to be 3), Z:1
"sourspot:" 5.5(used to be 4.5),6.3(used to be 5.3), X:0,0 Y:-2,-6(used to be -7), Z:1


Then there's a lot of unchanged stuff with specials.

Eruption: 21E
Something at 262 with 6 damage, aether wave? 263 is probably diagonal aether
Then a bunch of aether hitboxes...

THEN, at game_289, there are some changes to the Z offset, 50->62, then some others from Z:10,22,34,46 to Z:12,24,38,52
game28B has a 10 damage hitbox with a size reduced from 20 to 18 and some Z offset increases. Is this the Aether Wave projectile?


expression_137, expression_141, expression_147, expression_14D, expression_153, 20E, 20F, 212, 213, 214, 216, 217, 218, 21A, 21B, 21C, 21E, 21F, 220, 222, 223, 224, 226, 227, 228, 22A, 22B, 22C, 22E, 22F, 230, 232, 233, 234, 236, 237, 238, 23A, 23B, 23C, 23E, 23F, etc (gave up lol) had a line or 2 removed

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Heh, somebody over at GameFAQs is complaining that Ike with customs is OP'd.

Didn't think I'd see THAT with SSB4.

 

[Vinylic.]

VI was removed?

Yep, Vectoring is completely removed.

 

[Ekans647]

Yep, Vectoring is completely removed.

So you just DI normally now? Cool.

 

[-RedX-]

Not neccesarily. It's a complete mess right now because something was changed with the knockback influence system with horizontal knockback. It's like Wumboing now. Nobody knows how it works for now.

Also, I think Rage was weakened but I'm not too sure on this.

 

[Heartstring]

Also, I think Rage was weakened but I'm not too sure on this.

It's probably placebo effect. But god-damn do I wish this to be true, would be a stealth buff for sonic seeing as he tends to die when the opponent is in full rage because **** having kill moves.

 

[Ekans647]

It's probably placebo effect. But god-damn do I wish this to be true, would be a stealth buff for sonic seeing as he tends to die when the opponent is in full rage because **** having kill moves.

As much as I hate Sonic (Both in play style and personality) that quote made my day.

 

[Aether9000]

Tomorrow is the big day boys.

 

[Zatchiel]

About forty minutes remaining for me. I look forward to playing with you guys/hanging around more often and representing. Let's dooooo et.

 

[Sol0ke]

Gonna have to wait until Christmas unfortunately to finally start playing.

 

[Vinylic.]

Will do, duderino.

I'm gonna play this with my 3DS lol.

 

[Zatchiel]

First game online, practically zero-death'd a Fox so he left after his first stock. I look forward to these next few weeks.

Not trying to come across as haughty with what I said above, especially after playing a few more games. Punishing with Ike feels like hell to me. And I really dislike rolling.

Edit2: Okay, I'm a bit more comfortable with Ike now. The only harsh loss I've had tonight is against a Sheik player; what on earth am I supposed to do in that MU? I tried being patient but it seemed like Sheik can just dance around and punish me hard off of a grab. And once I'm in the air against Sheik, I don't exactly panic, but I definitely don't keep my cool with the punish potential.

In other news, I really need to get accustomed to this whole "aerial cancels fastfall" thing. I originally thought I was just mistiming my fasfall f-airs (although I technically have been), I've been whiffing it so much because of that.

 

[Ussi]

Got me a wii U and smash 4 for wii u. Now I'll also be taking part of these gameplay discussions.

 

[Blubolouis]

Looked through @Dantarion 's stuff, going to pretty it up later, but these were my preliminary looks at it:

tl;dr for things we didn't quite know just yet
-Fair hitbox size increase and hitbox shifted slightly lower vertically. Beginning autocancel changed from 5 to 2 frames
-Dtilt ever so slightly shorter range
-Range increased on dair with some shifts
-Possible ending lag decrease on dash attack
-Dsmash more horizontal knockback
-Possible ending lag decrease on down smash
-Possible ending lag decrease and random tweaks on some specials

Source: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore/index.php?char=ike&mode=diff104

Figured as much for the fair hitbox, kind of sad because I was beginning to love the Up hitbox, but heh. Great info. I'll give a try to Dsmash once again.

 

[Vinylic.]

Looks like I'm staying with 3DS for now.

My wii u is still a defect. Smash bros just crashed, blah.

 

[Sol0ke]

So how is Ike in the Wii U version? I can't get it atm.

 

[Vinylic.]

Just like in the 3DS version, amazing.

6-win streak right now in FG cuz, I'm playing on my 3DS more.

 

[san.]

Figured as much for the fair hitbox, kind of sad because I was beginning to love the Up hitbox, but heh. Great info. I'll give a try to Dsmash once again.

It's shifted in such a way that we can hit people above and below us equally, so I'm fine with it. You do have to ignore the first 1/8 of the swing arc though since there's not hitbox there. Fair is pretty much where it was in Brawl, with a little range traded for speed.