Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[-Mars-]

Well it's a good thing to elaborate on Fenrir. I'm on your side with this. There's a lot to Fox that we haven't found yet and it kills me that lots of people say he has no potential.

One thing a Snake player said to me about Fox was that Fox has a lot of options and that worries him.

What I'd like to get at now with Fox is to not shrug off his D-tilt or an offensive Fox Fire. Perhaps up the usage of Illusion during combos or throws.

Fthrow to illusion has been working for me lately, I pretty much use it as an surprise tactic. It's pretty hard to see coming and if performed correctly it can put you on the advantage.

Now as for DDD, I think it's a 50:50 matchup as well and that's mainly because DDD is one dimensional against Fox. He's forced to approach(which has already been mentioned), and he's only going to approach with bair. This is where Fox thrives predicting the opponent and punishing hard. Fair lock ons, airs, and bairs are easy to hit with so you can have a fun time juggling DDD to your hearts content. Now of course he does outrange you, his ftilt can be tricky sometimes so watch out for it; but if you play the proper spacing game it becomes a much easier matchup. He can't chaingrab Fox, but he still combos out of grabs so avoid getting grabbed at all costs.

 

[RPK]

Also, SHTL is superior to SHDL...Just throwing that out there...I'll give some input tomorrow...All I can think of is that you can U-air him out of his up+b when he's coming down down or near the top...I did it a lot to a computer DDD seeing if I can....and apparently it can go through if you space the U-air correctly...

 

[-Mars-]

Also, SHTL is superior to SHDL...Just throwing that out there...I'll give some input tomorrow...All I can think of is that you can U-air him out of his up+b when he's coming down down or near the top...I did it a lot to a computer DDD seeing if I can....and apparently it can go through if you space the U-air correctly...

I think bair works against his up b too right? Although most DDD's won't give you the chance to hit them out of their up b.

 

[Zhamy]

Fenrir's a good guy, and he does always point out good stuff. Sure, his matchup numbers might be funny at times, but hey, that's why we debate them.

D3 is an odd matchup. It's entirely about spacing. The "Don't get hit" part of the game becomes vitally important, because each of DDD's hits hurt. Fox is the 7th lightest character, and he can't afford to get hit that many times.

Waddle Dee shouldn't scare you. Assuming you're not playing on a horribly small stage, SHDLs will annoy DDD enough. DDD has trouble approaching Fox because of speed differences. Again - spacing. Except for Bair, you can punish nearly all of DDD's approaches, although you may sometimes be limited to dash attacks, Jabs, grabs, etc.

If you have to approach DDD, a PWG will solve nearly all of your problems if you're smart about it. You're most likely to get hit out of a PWG by Ftilt, so watch for that. USmash kills safe at 127% with DI and Air Dodging. Edgeguarding isn't pretty, though. Fox's Bair gets eaten by a bunch of D3's aerials, and don't even think about shine spiking. That being said, it's difficult to kill D3 early as Fox.

Combos work wonders on this guy. Dairs can and will eat through his shield if its size has gone down a bit, and then the setups work wonders from there. Fair lands all the hits pretty often, and Bair is good for an approach.

D3 has his good spots too, mostly being that he has better range and a much better recovery/edgeguard game. Not to mention that his attacks do ridiculous damage and knockback, so Fox won't live very long. To sum it all up again: Don't get hit.

This matchup is pretty even. Both have advantages and disadvantages I'd pin it at 50:50.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Well, yeah...of course my numbers seem weird a lot of the time. I mean, I did say 6-4 vs MK...and I believe it. haha.

but seriously, thanks to everybody defending me.

My main other points of contention (aside from Marth) are GW and Falco. GW has good stuff, so I was arguing that it was a 4-6 Fox...not even as somebody said.... I just don't think it's bad enough for a 7-3. that's all.

The other stuff I argued on in this thread was mainly the ZSS matchup, which, in the case that ZSS has that infinite, I was wrong. I think the match is winnable, but yeah, that makes it tricky.

Now, Vs MK, I just really think it's a good match as long as you keep your recoveries unpredictable and learn to bait attacks out. MK players tend to get really lazy, thinking they're god or something...so it's fairly easy to punish them. Idk, I don't really wanna go back into all the matchups I discussed before. I'm just kinda explaining myself here.

Yes, I'm optimistic about Fox, because honestly, I think he only has a handful of pretty bad matchups...none of which include the top or most of high tier. And again, most non-Fox players will come in here and say Fox has a mediocre moveset and no options, and I simply believe this is not true. And just to repeat what I said earlier, he has one of the most useful kill moves in the game.

The tricky part here is that Fox can be a LOT harder to play than a large number of other characters...he literally has to change his style depending on matchup... but just keep practicing him and working it, and you will learn each matchup and be able to play it. Is that to say I want to play a pikachu in tournament? haha no. If they CP me in it, I'll do it, but yeah, that match is bad. Lucario is less so, but kinda the same way... Idk, I realize I go against most people's thinking, but I'm just posting my thoughts here...so yeah.

 

[_X_]

If this one's not 50/50 it's either 45/55 In D's Favor or 40/60 In D's Favor, no more.

 

[§witch]

I seriously love this mathup, fatasses are too much fun with fox. Iirc, fox can't be CGed by DDD so apart from fox's lightness I'm not seeing why you think that way X.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I seriously love this mathup, fatasses are too much fun with fox. Iirc, fox can't be CGed by DDD so apart from fox's lightness I'm not seeing why you think that way X.

He's saying it's no worse than a 6-4 DDD

 

[§witch]

Aye, but he's saying in D's favour, which I disagree with.

 

[M@v]

You cant argue on 1 thing DDD got on fox: Manliness.

 

[Chaco]

You cant argue on 1 thing DDD got on fox: Manliness.

QFT.

But yeah DDD does have a slight advantage, none to crucial in the overall matchup though. I say 5.5-4.5 3D's favour.

 

[Zhamy]

But yeah DDD does have a slight advantage,

Where? They trade off almost evenly.

 

[M@v]

Where? They trade off almost evenly.

Its still really close to even, but a lot of DDDs move out prioritze foxs approaches, making sometimes making it a pain to start your combos. And if your playing a good DDD, bair Wall of Pain can be a royal Pain in the behind. I know: DDD is one of my 3 secondaries(MK, DDD, Lucario). Bair wall of pain is sickening.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Its still really close to even, but a lot of DDDs move out prioritze foxs approaches, making sometimes making it a pain to start your combos. And if your playing a good DDD, bair Wall of Pain can be a royal Pain in the behind. I know: DDD is one of my 3 secondaries(MK, DDD, Lucario). Bair wall of pain is sickening.

Bair WOP can be shield usmashed...or grabbed for that matter... not so sickening after that.

 

[M@v]

Bair WOP can be shield usmashed...or grabbed for that matter... not so sickening after that.

Im talking about off the stage as an edgeguard. Sorry I didnt make it clear.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Im talking about off the stage as an edgeguard. Sorry I didnt make it clear.

ohhh. Yeah, that's pretty sick. the only thing you can really do is DI away...and that's so scary, especially if he already jacked your jump.

 

[JST]

Somethings that I feel that I must stress again:

All of Fox's approach options are very, very unsafe, seeing as DDD can just shield grab and/or outprioritize/outrange nearly all of them (Unless I'm missing something). On top of that, Fox's range up close isn't spectacular AND he lacks the DI to maneuver his way out of grab-****. When you account for the fact that DDD has spectacular options for punishing even the tiniest mistakes, there's a big problem.

Of course, Fox has the lasers, which is one of his edges in this match-up. Just remember that Waddles can go over your lasers, stop outright spam, and are probably the most annoying projectiles in the game along with Falco's lasers and Snake's grenades. They can also attack you if you're absent-minded (Both Doos and Dees attack you).

This match-up is all about this: Be REALLLY ****ing careful.

 

[Zhamy]

This match-up is all about this: Be REALLLY ****ing careful.

Space space space space space. Space well. I can't stress that enough.

Just remember that Waddles can go over your lasers, stop outright spam

Show me a stage bigger than Melee FoD and I'll show you a stage where Fox can camp DDD.

 

[FzeroX]

something to add to the MK matchup, fox can soft nair combo MK to upsmash for 76% to 91/2% for a true combo (according to training mode) the more decay the bigger the window to upsmash is, at 75% a soft nair upsmash will kill if both are at full charge, upsmash kills at 82% so account how much damage nair does to mk before you upsmash. just thought I would share this tidbit.

this soft nair to upsmash is weight dependant fall speed has nothing to do with it. MK weight is approx 76% - 91%, Pit weight approx 94-98%, lucario weight approx 96-98%, heavys will not combo T.T

 

[Rob_Gambino]

A problem fox has against DDD, most of his kills are vertical. DDD is probably the hardest character in the game to kill verticaly, so he's going to be living forever. Fox's recovery is not the greatest, so you're going to have to make sure you do not get off that edge.

You're going to have to work a lot harder to get your kills than DEDEDE will. He hits you once near edge, there's a good chance you'll be done. Once you hit dedede, you also have to make it count by getting as many possible hits as you can.

 

[Fenrir VII]

A problem fox has against DDD, most of his kills are vertical. DDD is probably the hardest character in the game to kill verticaly, so he's going to be living forever.

Around 125%, a DIed, Airdodged, non-diminished uncharged usmash kills DDD. Without DI and airdodge, it's around 110% depending on stage... honestly, that's not too bad....and that's just from usmash. Bair is ridiculously easy to use in this match...and dsmash is amazing, too, so you can get horizontal kills there pretty quickly. Add to that the fact that Fox can edgeguard DDD quite well...and killing really isn't a terrible issue. Yes, Fox can edgeguard DDD. I know that DDD's aerials out prioritize Fox's, for the most part...but also, they're laggy and easy to bait out, so landing your own aerials isn't that hard. At the base of DDD's upB, you can shine spike him....under the stage if he's not careful... And at any point after the peak of his up B, or if he cancels it, you can hit him out of it. If the DDD peaks his upB, you can uair him out of it for a pretty low % kill. This is all situational, but in this match, Fox's problem is not killing DDD...

Fox's recovery is not the greatest, so you're going to have to make sure you do not get off that edge.

You're going to have to work a lot harder to get your kills than DEDEDE will. He hits you once near edge, there's a good chance you'll be done. Once you hit dedede, you also have to make it count by getting as many possible hits as you can.

Um, actually Fox has one of the best recoveries in the game...certainly better than average. Allyou have to do to not get killed in this match is be VERY careful with your second jump... if you do it near stage height and toward the stage, you'll eat a bair every time. so If you expect to jump toward the stage and illusion or firefox over, you'll die. But remember, DDD's aerial movement speed is quite slow.so usually, if you jump slightly away from the stage, he won't be able to make it to you in time, and you can illusion past him... that brings me to the main point of the match...

The only way DDD can win this match is by punishing your mistakes. On paper, I would call the match around a 7-3 for Fox. Don't get me wrong...i think it's straight 5-5 though. Why? because every Fox (including myself) makes mistakes and tries to go for stuff they shouldn't....and just plays stupidly at times. DDD's lag time after most moves is slightly less than I always think, so I can't even tell you how many times he's shielded an usmash against me...
Fox has to be VERY aware of what he is doing and not fall into the same stuff over and over again. This includes, and is mainly centered around his recovery. When recovering, Fox has LOTS of options....even shine stalling for forever... so if you can keep mixing those options, DDD will have major trouble guarding you. The fact is that whether through edge guarding or just on stage Kills....DDD is able to kill Fox mad early with his moves... but for about 80% of them, he can't legitimately land his moves without guessing out something you'll do or punishing you for lagging on his shield.

Basically, keep mixing, and this match is really good.

 

[Zhamy]

Um, actually Fox has one of the best recoveries in the game.

No. I'm sorry, he doesn't. I wish he did, though. I wish he did.

 

[M@v]

Fenrir, you've posted tons of helpful info, but keep in mind we are talking about "Fox" here, not "metaknight"

 

[Xiivi]

To be honest, Fenrir is right about Fox's recovery. Fox has enough options to mix up his recovery and avoid punishment that many other recoveries have to deal with. Fox's recovery may seem terrible, but really, the only thing bad about it is Firefox, which you shouldn't be using anyway.

Fox's recovery isn't godly distance or anything that allows him to fly around final destination like so many other characters. But it's enough to get him back onto the stage from most points, with enough variability to not get hit in the process. If either rising fair or shine stall were gone, he'd definitely be screwed, but luckily both options are there.

It's definitely slightly above the average of recoveries.

 

[-Mars-]

To be honest, Fenrir is right about Fox's recovery. Fox has enough options to mix up his recovery and avoid punishment that many other recoveries have to deal with. Fox's recovery may seem terrible, but really, the only thing bad about it is Firefox, which you shouldn't be using anyway.

Fox's recovery isn't godly distance or anything that allows him to fly around final destination like so many other characters. But it's enough to get him back onto the stage from most points, with enough variability to not get hit in the process. If either rising fair or shine stall were gone, he'd definitely be screwed, but luckily both options are there.

It's definitely slightly above the average of recoveries.

Exactly, there is so many different ways you can recover that as long as you keep mixing it up and not get too predictable, you'll get back on the stage just fine.

 

[Zhamy]

It above average. That I can agree with. It's not one of the best in the game.

 

[M@v]

I think we are all agreed that this is an even matchup, or darn close to it. So we will put this one at 5:5 even. Next up: FALCO

better keep your hands off it...
but yeah fox gets owned pretty bad here...mother f'in chaingrab....

discuss.

 

[§witch]

K, fox can be weird to chainspike because of his falling speed, but doesn't make to much of a difference (fox ***** this match-up on wifi though.) Falco's lasers shut down fox completely. If fox starts laser spamming all falco has to do is spam them right back. Falco's air game beats fox's as well iirc. Falco nair when FF'ed combo's to utilt and a follow up from that. He can CG fox in place so fox is at the perfect chainspike %. It's a really bad match-up for fox because he can't force falco to approach.

 

[KheldarVII]

I don't think the chain grab is your biggest fear. Probably more about surprise laser hits and that B-air. Okay maybe it is the biggest fear. That dash attack cancelled U-smash is no picnic either.

Fox might have to make more approaches on this one. What I find works nicely is doing a dash shine mid-range to throw off his short hop lasers and then finding some way closer either by air or by grabbing. It's an uphill battle really. The brightside is your aerials can mess him up enough and U-smash can kill at good percentages. I think Fox has a harder time edgeguarding though with the ending lag of B-air and Falco's Illusion can spike. The one vulnerability is probably a shine spike or N-air during an Up+B. Falco's vertical recovery is terrible so it has to be taken advantage of.

I don't play Falco's often but I think his D-smash comes out faster than Fox's so shield in close encounters when you're behind him. I'd say to keep knocking them upwards with F-air and U-smash as the only thing he can really do to you is D-air and that can be avoided.

Getting past any laser camping isn't as easy as Wolf's where you can powershield approach. I just recommend getting higher and waiting (like on BF) or anticipated a shot, dashing, and pulling out the reflector real quick. Seems to work well enough as they always want that second shot and won't have time to hit shield. That knocks them off their rhythm.

Feel free to correct me on anything. I'm always willing to learn as well as help.

I'd call this a 3:7 or 35:65.

 

[M@v]

just for reference guys, the dash attack canceled into upsmash combo is called a gattlingcombo.

 

[§witch]

Gatling combo*******

 

[M@v]

its fixed now

 

[A6M Zero]

Well, I speak out of experience of playing Falco's like letterbombs, some locals, and other guys on wifi...Fortunately, this advice is pretty universal and will not change between wifi and irl


In my experience, once you take away Falco's advantages (the biggest of which being just control) he's really just a medium weight sandbag.

Once you get inside his comfort zone, hack away at him like you would at any other character. He's got some decent weight, so you get to use a lot of fun combinations like...

utilt-ultilt-ultilt-grab-dthrow-softfair-drill-whatever is suitable

To be honest, playing Falco is a lot like playing against Olimar, except he'll kick you're *** long range too. Get inside Falco's comfort zone and rack on your damage before he does. Oh, and from my experience each Falco has his own style and tendencies (more so than other characters), find theirs and pwn dem :D


PS: Every time Letterbomb fires lasers at you, usmash and it'll hit him out of his illusion.

 

[-Mars-]

My view on this matchup:

It's really hard to avoid being chaingrabbed in this matchup, in theory you could just sit in your reflector and make them come to you , but in the end it's one shielded aerial and your chaingrabbed to 40-50%. Your automatically going to be down in each and every stock, so unless you can space really well(almost impossible against Falco), prepare for an uphill battle.

Your also going to be the one doing the approaching, also not good for you. Falco can easily stop the majority of your approaches with his lasers and his reflector(imo a great spacing tool). Bair is a b**** to get around as well and has good priority. So basically you have to approach, he can stop your approach, and if you get near him, he chaingrabs you across the stage.....perfect.

Fox does have the advantage in kill power here. Yes he can chaingrab you but you can combo the hell out of him. He falls extremely fast so utilt combos do close to the damage he can do with the chaingrab. Dairs to grabs and jabs work really well if you can get near him, and we all know what usmash does at 100%.

Off the stage, your recovery is better, it's pretty hard for Falco to do anything to you unless you use fire fox, mix up your recovery and you should be fine. On the other side, if Falco is forced to use his upb, he's as good as dead. A good Falco won't get in that situation very often however and illusion cancel can mess with your edguarding. You do have an advantage here, but just slightly. I've also found that a shine on the very end of the stage sets up Falco's for shinespikes, something i've found very useful.

I'd give it 65:35 Falco, he just has too much going for him. As a Fox player you just have to outplay the opponent, simple as that.

 

[§witch]

Illusion is very easy to edgeguard btw. Falco's bair just straight up beats it. Sex kicks ftw.
EDIT: Utilt chains are easily escapable after like 25% with falco.

 

[-Mars-]

Illusion is very easy to edgeguard btw. Falco's bair just straight up beats it. Sex kicks ftw.
EDIT: Utilt chains are easily escapable after like 25% with falco.

That's why I said mix up your recovery, Fox has many options that he can run through for his recovery.

 

[§witch]

Aye that's true. And lmao A6M.

 

[RPK]

I dont know how you would practice this, but do it some how...Practice jumping out of your reflector when Falco's laser, or any other projectile hits it. I can really see this helping out in the match...

 

[_X_]

X says this match up is 50/50.

 

[-Mars-]

X says this match up is 50/50.

Ya, got any reasons?