Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[RPK]

I would say something but I havent faced too many marths and dont know the match up too well...I would have to say wait in your shield and punish his blade dance, and if you can, bait for openings. Marth has the range to keep you away. So your best bet would be to force him to come to you through SH triple laser and hope he ****s up his spacing...Approaching a Marth is rather difficult because he has such quick attacks with such ridiculous range...

I would have to say your best bet is to try and force up some openings and force them to make mistakes. Its the thing for every character, but I cant think of anything. Though I can ask this, what does the Marth board have to beware when other characters with no projectiles approach you? The best thing, in my opinion, when you cant think of a way for a character to get in, look at other characters that can be put in the same situation, and see if you can steal any strats from them and apply it to yours in any way. So again, how would other characters that have no projectiles get past Marth?

EDIT: Also, Shaya, I have heard nothing but you saying Marth is superior in your 3 posts...Seriously, stop ****ing posting if your going to be posting like your last 2 posts...That s*** is getting us no where...If your going to be posting here, in addition to telling us what wont work, give us Marth's weaknesses. Show us the chinks in his armor. What we can look for to take advantage of. Telling us what wont work is good and all but give us weaknesses in addition to strengths...If you dont know our character well enough to help us, look for weaknesses, but instead spout how Marth is better in every way shape, form, and p3n1s size then all I have to say is this:

http://smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=168 There is the link to the Marth boards, now get the f*** out.

 

[Desire]

uhh, can any1 explain HOW THE F*** IS FOX=MK?

again, WTF random

 

[Steel]

I would say something but I havent faced too many marths and dont know the match up too well...I would have to say wait in your shield and punish his blade dance, and if you can, bait for openings. Marth has the range to keep you away. So your best bet would be to force him to come to you through SH triple laser and hope he ****s up his spacing...Approaching a Marth is rather difficult because he has such quick attacks with such ridiculous range...

I would have to say your best bet is to try and force up some openings and force them to make mistakes. Its the thing for every character, but I cant think of anything. Though I can ask this, what does the Marth board have to beware when other characters with no projectiles approach you? The best thing, in my opinion, when you cant think of a way for a character to get in, look at other characters that can be put in the same situation, and see if you can steal any strats from them and apply it to yours in any way. So again, how would other characters that have no projectiles get past Marth?

You have the right idea, i really feel your best way to get damage as I said before is your lasers. And abuse your illusion to reset the match once Marth gets too close. This can obviously be punished, so mix it up and be smart about it. Though I don't really see what you are saying by waiting in your shield predicting a dancing blade..

Best way to get past Marth? Range. Fox doesn't really have this, his best poke is probably his ftilt and Marth can easily outrange that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I actually stopped reading that after

Falco: 2-8
Olimar: 3-7
Metaknight: 3-7

hahahahah xD



People who are not informed should not speak as if they are. Certain people like to hear themselves talk, though.

http://smashboards.com/member.php?u=45554

THAT is Xiivi. He's a Fox main no less.

Yeah, Xiivi has bad matchup ideas. I quoted Teh_Spammerer, who is definitely a professional player, to point that out. However the point remains the same. Fox is a TERRIBLE character.

Vs Marth, I dunno by how much but Marth definitely wins due to better range, defense, and edgeguarding.

 

[M@v]

http://smashboards.com/member.php?u=45554

THAT is Xiivi. He's a Fox main no less.

Yeah, Xiivi has bad matchup ideas. I quoted Teh_Spammerer, who is definitely a professional player, to point that out. However the point remains the same. Fox is a TERRIBLE character.

Vs Marth, I dunno by how much but Marth definitely wins due to better range, defense, and edgeguarding.

tell me why fox is only under TL and olimar for the top of mid tier, and he is not low then, if he is horrible as you claim. Last time I checked, 1 person's performance did not decide tier lists, and that is what people seem to be implying.



Also, in my honest opinion
Falco-3:7(that chaingrab can burn)
MK-4:6(we discussed this, and the majority of fox boards believes this is even)
Olimar-5:5, and the olimar boards agree.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A2ZOMG: How exactly, did you come to know my ***** spam anyway?

 

[Xiivi]

First off...that post I made was horribly exaggerated in order to get people in the Brawl Tier Discussion to stop putting Fox above amazing characters like Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong, I literally took my own opinion on all of those match-ups and made them all one or two points further not in Fox's favour (I was in a bad mood, sue me).

However, get it straight, Fox does have mid tier match-ups and a mid-tier moveset, and actually quite a few low tier disadvantages that other characters in mid tier do not have. He's very lucky to have the spot he does on the SBR tier list. He's one of the characters that will likely fall as Brawl progresses.

Also, lol at me maining Fox.

I'll write a more detailed rant later or something, I have class now.

Also: Fenrir VII overestimates Fox to death. -_-;;

 

[Fenrir VII]

Also: Fenrir VII overestimates Fox to death. -_-;;

blanket statement. back it up.

I literally took my own opinion on all of those match-ups and made them all one or two points further not in Fox's favour

Pikachu 2-8 (Pikachu)
Falco 2-8 (Falco)
Olimar 3-7 (Olimar)
Sheik 3-7 (Sheik)
Kirby 3-7 (Kirby)
Zero Suit Samus 3-7 (Zero Suit Samus)
Lucario 3-7 (Lucario)
Metaknight 3-7 (Metaknight)
Ice Climbers 4-6 (Ice Climbers)
R.O.B. 4-6 (R.O.B.)
Donkey Kong 4-6 (Donkey Kong)
Peach 4-6 (Peach)
King Dedede 4-6 (King Dedede)
Toon Link 4-6 (Toon Link)
Zelda 4-6 (Zelda)
Mr. Game & Watch 4-6 (Mr. Game & Watch)
Snake 4-6 (Snake)
Marth 4-6 (Marth)
Luigi 4-6 (Luigi)
Wolf 5-5
Ike 5-5
Wario 5-5
Diddy Kong 5-5
Pit 5-5
Lucas 5-5
Pokemon Trainer 5-5 (all three surprisingly)
Samus 5-5
Mario 5-5
Ness 5-5
Bowser 5-5
Sonic 6-4 (Fox)
Jigglypuff 6-4 (Fox)
Yoshi 6-4 (Fox)
Link 6-4 (Fox)
Ganondorf 6-4 (Fox)
Captain Falcon 7-3 (Fox)

um....adding one point to all those at the minimum of what you said, you get:

Pikachu 3-7 (Pikachu)
Falco 3-7 (Falco)
Olimar 4-6 (Olimar)
Sheik 4-6 (Sheik)
Kirby 4-6 (Kirby)
Zero Suit Samus 4-6 (Zero Suit Samus)
Lucario 4-6 (Lucario)
Metaknight 4-6 (Metaknight)
Ice Climbers 5-5 (Ice Climbers)
R.O.B. 5-5 (R.O.B.)
Donkey Kong 5-5 (Donkey Kong)
Peach 5-5 (Peach)
King Dedede 5-5 (King Dedede)
Toon Link 5-5 (Toon Link)
Zelda 5-5 (Zelda)
Mr. Game & Watch 5-5 (Mr. Game & Watch)
Snake 5-5 (Snake)
Marth 5-5 (Marth)
Luigi 5-5 (Luigi)
Wolf 6-4
Ike 6-4
Wario 6-4
Diddy Kong 6-4
Pit 6-4
Lucas 6-4
Pokemon Trainer 6-4 (all three surprisingly)
Samus 6-4
Mario 6-4
Ness 6-4
Bowser 6-4
Sonic 7-3 (Fox)
Jigglypuff 7-3 (Fox)
Yoshi 7-3 (Fox)
Link 7-3 (Fox)
Ganondorf 7-3 (Fox)
Captain Falcon 8-2 (Fox)

Which surprisingly is almost exactly my statement on several matches...and even better on some. And yet, you say I'm unrealistic, when you say almost the exact same thing as I do...if not more, as I didn't incorporate the "1-2" thing...I left it at one point more. >.> I don't see what's wrong with this.
the rest I'll get to later.



Also, Shaya, I don't feel it's necessary to debate with a person who has as little knowledge of Fox as you do. You can say I'm naive or whatever... but as I pointed out before, you used a move beating Illusion as an example of good priority? Um...no kidding.

Every player, by now, should know that illusion actually attacks BEHIND Fox's character. This has not even changed since Melee... So to exhibit that as an example was beyond hilarious from somebody who has proven to be as elitist as you. I would have continued with the discussion eventually, but you then said you feel you don't need to understand Fox. So you're not hear to listen to anything I might say. You show no interest to actually learn about Fox, but instead just want to debate, throwing insults around as you go... so honestly, what's the point of debating with you? You have in your mind what the matchup is, and are just here to debate...not to actually learn anything. you are here to throw your "intelligence" at us...and not to have a reasonable discussion, so you're simply not worth my time.
I may continue the debate with other players...Emblem Lord is a bit elitist as well, but at least he knows more and can debate reasonably...and he seems to be a decent person. Other Marths haven't been so bad either, but you're beneath me in this, so i don't feel the need to talk to you personally any more.

 

[Steel]

Well, if you think it's even then prove it to us. We have given all reasons out there why this match goes to Marth with relative ease. I feel you are over-analyzing these match ups giving Fox more credit than he deserves.

I stated my reasoning and tried to help out the Fox's by saying you have to play completely gay to win this match. I can't see any other way if the Marth knows how to keep Fox in front of his sword.

 

[Xiivi]

blanket statement. back it up.

You tried to argue Fox vs G&W as even. :/

um....adding one point to all those at the minimum of what you said, you get:

Bad wording on my part, I picked what matches I wanted to mess around with at the time. Oh well, I don't care about Fox. Ignore any posts of mine, especially ones as horribly outdated as that one. I'm not part of this conversation.

 

[Zhamy]

I stated my reasoning and tried to help out the Fox's by saying you have to play completely gay to win this match.

Gay is the new Brawl.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well Marth breaks the rules so im all for gaying him out to win. who isn't?

also LOLx1000 @ Xiivi's sig

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

But normally will a competitive player play gayly for a whole match to beat a Marth? Unless said Fox player was completely playing to win and had no pride or dignity, then I doubt this would happen. Therefore, we should not incorporate Fox playing gayly into Fox's strategies vs. Marth. We should actually talk about what competitive Fox players would do to beat Fox. I know nothing about this matchup so I won't post my opinion.

 

[Steel]

But normally will a competitive player play gayly for a whole match to beat a Marth? Unless said Fox player was completely playing to win and had no pride or dignity, then I doubt this would happen. Therefore, we should not incorporate Fox playing gayly into Fox's strategies vs. Marth. We should actually talk about what competitive Fox players would do to beat Fox. I know nothing about this matchup so I won't post my opinion.

>_>

Brawl is a gay game. Thus, you play gay. Fox will just be playing even gayer in this match up. He's got to laser the hell out of Marth and hope that marth makes mistakes in spacing.

And yes, we should incorporate that into their strategies because THEY HAVE NO OTHER WAY. Fox can't get inside Marth's sword and cannot compete with his zoning.

If you know nothing about the match up don't tell me you can't play gay.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Did I ever state that you can't play gay? No I did not. I said that if any competitive player had a bit of pride, I doubt they, would, but I could be wrong. If they have this as their only method of winning then this matchup should be more one-sided then 70-30 imo.

 

[Steel]

That **** doesn't exist in the tournament scene, and since we are talking about two high level players of equal skill you can bet they will be competitive. People are playing to win.

There really is no other way for Fox to win if the Marth knows what he is doing. The fact that Fox has a spammable gun is why it is 70:30 in the first place. He has speed to get away from Marth, but up close he is ****ed.

 

[Shaya]

You guys read the first thing I say, and then completely ignore everything I stated afterwards (even during the same post?).

I may not know Fox as well as you do, but I'm giving you the opportunity to educate yet you keep just saying "YOU DONT KNOW FOX, WHATS THE POINT OF PROVING IT TO YOU?". Continue to act like this. Continue to be a laughing stock. Why must -I- bother to elucidate something over and over when I've stated things plain as day.

I've stated the glaring weaknesses in the match up, and instead of you trying to show positives... wait I'm almost repeating the second paragraph again. I wonder if when I repeat myself for the 7th time over all (after someone makes a post saying "SHAYA IS ELITIST, HE DOESNT KNOW FOX, WHATS THE POINT OF DEBATING WITH HIM?) will the message get through...

 

[M@v]

I may not know Fox as well as you do, but I'm giving you the opportunity to educate yet you keep just saying "YOU DONT KNOW FOX, WHATS THE POINT OF PROVING IT TO YOU?".

Ive been too quiet through all this, so time to chime in.

Its time for the summary of advanced fox mechanics 101. Take notes kids

Ill try to write this in the most unbiased way possible, And in a polite and insightful way.

Why Fox is good:
He has many combo strings he can use against opponents

He has several useful ATs, and i will explain them
Shine Stall: Everyone should know about this one. It pretty much lets fox hover. Combined with his fast falling, this can be used very effectively to throw off opponents timing on aerials. Its also good to make recovery less predictable

Fair boost: This allows fox's jump much higher than normal by using fair at the exact time you jump. This Gives him another recovery option, and can come above the edge fairing instead of just going for the ledge. This is also great to use after dthrow at higher %s, it has a high chance of hitting, but its not a combo.

SHDL, SHTL= Short hop double/triple laser. I hope these are self explanatory.

Fox can also glitch the edge of some stages like FD. If illusioned at the right height, he will reset to a standing position on the stage. This is hard the time, so it isnt too practical. If timed right though, it can potentially lead to suprise attacks.

He has modest Priority overall. His Usmash, fair and nair boast high priority, but other moves like fsmash and dair, could definitely use more.

Upsmash-Foxs most feared move, and faster than most up smashes of its strength caliber. Can be combod out of dair if the person trips from dair(this has a high percent chance if the opponent is weak)

Projectile- This makes spam and camping possible

Speed- Fox is the 3rd fastest character I believe, and he can use his speed to dominate slower and heavier guys(Bowser, Ganondorf, Ike) That is unless the opponent makes it hard to approach(DK, DDD).
What makes fox bad:


Weight- 7th lightest character

Lack of good apporach moves- Yes fair and nair are good approaches, but its hard to string anything out of them. Fox's dair, his main combo starter, suffers from less than average priority, making landing combos a problem. Dash attack and illusion are horrible methods of apporach as well. Its always better to be defensive with fox due to this, and that his defensive capabilites are stronger than his offensive ones.

Infinites- 2 characters, Pika and zamus, can outright own fox with one move. This is a major problem, because there is always fear of the Counterpick.

Range- excluding his blaster, foxs moves dont have super range, but some are not bad. Fair and ftilt have good ranges. Fsmash does, but its slow and punishable.

Can have trouble killing- Usmash is godly, but everyone and their mother knows to watch out for it. Uair is a good killer, but hard to land. This leaves bair, dsmash, and fsmash, all moves that kill in the 130-160 percentile range (on average)for medium characters. Considering foxes weight, staying alive until they are up to these percents can pose problems.


Thats the best unbiased summary I can give from my experiences with fox. I could go into pages with every little thing, but I dont really want to...its friday night at college.... And i got so much work...I dont need another couple pages to write.>_>

 

[Steel]

OK, we knew all of this. We aren't oblivious to what Fox can do or else we would not be here.

Was this part of a debate against Marth? I'm confused as to why you even made this post. The things Fox can normally rely on Marth completely shuts down.

 

[KheldarVII]

The only things to look for when fighting Marth is the very inched spacing where a F-smash or an aerial were just almost out of reach and you can dash U-smash or run in for the shield grab. The big risk here is that you're pretty much sticking your hand in an alligator's mouth and pulling it out real quick since his tip is the big worry zone and Fox is very lightweight. I can't see Fox overpowering Marth in any form of close combat when you think of all the options.

Anything unpredictable? Sure you got Fox Fire and Fox Illusion and the occasional surprise D-air but it's a big uphill battle. What I've noticed work well for surprise hits is the dash attack. Does the dash attack offer any real follow up? Not really. That's why it's tough. I can see Fox getting better at the higher percentages but by then if Marth has read Fox enough and Fox would already be down a stock. Marth also has better throws on his side.

I call it either 35-65 or 30-70.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG: How exactly, did you come to know my ***** spam anyway?

I met him (not to mention Inui) at Fire Emblem Planet and I think I first interacted with him when he answered some of my queries about playing Melee. Then one day he wanted to know what exactly I was holding back from the "hawt anime girls club" so he asked me on AIM. Then one day he was bored and wanted me to play Brawl with him online (and he destroyed me completely with Bowser). And I came to respect his extensive knowledge of the Smash series somewhere down the line. And I guess I like talking to him a lot.

Err on topic...next time I'd appreciate it if people made more sense. Like....Xiivi, your character icon is Fox, but you said you don't main Fox? ****, what the hell am I supposed to believe? @_@

 

[M@v]

OK, we knew all of this. We aren't oblivious to what Fox can do or else we would not be here.

Was this part of a debate against Marth? I'm confused as to why you even made this post. The things Fox can normally rely on Marth completely shuts down.

The quote in my posts keeps saying people are not giving facts, so I merely am, in response to it.

 

[Shaya]

Okay Pgh, thank you.

From that post I can make a couple of conclusions. Fox has defensive strategies. I can also say (hopefully not arrogantly) that I knew all of the things you listed; to be honest, I am slightly disappointed admist all of the "you dont know fox" spam. But thank you anyway.

As many people are saying, even those who main Fox, Marth has a strong advantage. Many are agreeing with the 65-70/100 range for the match up. Here are the reiteration of the reasons why; using what Pgh posted as a guide.

Fox has stall/defensive options in the air. However it is a dangerous 'technique' to over-use. Marth's uair can kill Fox at not too high damage, and is easy to tip. Fox can be juggled, and remaining in the air is not so advantageous.
Use of fair falls into the same category as above. Relying on going 'higher' just gives Marth more opportunity to juggle. Unfortunately for Fox, Marth's aerials will out range the kicks of Fox. In use of recovering it helps him to get back; but it isn't too hard for Fox to be gimped during this.

The laser is pivotal to racking up damage and keeping Fox's 'kill moves' fresh. It is one of Fox's greatest allies in this particular match; we are forced to approach. Opportunity arises for Fox in this situation. However greater rushdown techniques and the lacking of the projectile to 'halt' (like Falcos) puts him down to just camping. It is over all advantageous to Fox's game to use the Lasers.

Fox's other moves are all out ranged by Marths. But their speed is useful. Upsmash is a feared move, but it is hardly effective against a grounded Marth (brickwalls such as dtilt, or sh fairs). The combos into this can be di'd out, and Marth has much opportunity to punish any failed dair approaches (and for Fox, failing it is quite easy).

Marth is also a very fast character. Both are also light, and can kill eachother at similar percentages. However as implied Fox has a hard time approaching, making it crucially obvious here who is at the supreme advantage. Gimping is anyones game. But forcing Marth off the edge with Fox is hard, and shine spiking is mostly impossible due to Dolphin Slash's priority.

Now to those who don't know Marth:
- Supreme range.
- Dancing Blade (fast, good damage racker)
- Attack priority, speed and power are mostly very nice. (Some however have horrible cooldowns, like fsmash).
- Arguably one of the best defensive games in Brawl. Including dolphin slash out of shield; being one of the most broken attacks in the game.
- Tippers.

Weaknesses
- Directly below him
- Recovery
- Light
- Lack of spammable kill moves.
- No projectile

Theres a lot of other things but, yeah.

 

[Steel]

*poke*

Are you guys done then?

 

[M@v]

i guess...

and shaya: lol @ avatar. Iron chef amirite

 

[Steel]

Very well. We can always relook at ratios if something comes up, for now we will keep it at 65:35-70:30.

 

[M@v]

Final ruling here is 35:65 disadvantage. I made a new slot in the guide for 35:65. Next Character is my #3 man(behind fox and MK) and, besides Captain Falcon, the most PIMP. I give you...
KING DEDEDE!

As for the matchup.

Im not sure to call it even or 4:6 DDD advantage. Both characters got a major things going for them:

Fox:
Can't be chaingrabbed by DDD, thats always a plus.
Due to DDD's size and weight, he can juggle and combo the living daylights out of DDD

DDD: yeah he can get combo owned, by DDD makes it near impossible for fox TO get close to combo. Waddles shut down blaster spam game. And mist of DDD's moves have great range, making it hard for fox to get in.

If the DDD's an idiot and uses only smashes, this is a cakewalk for fox, but if the DDD is good, this becomes VERY interesting.

Edgeguarding: DDD- best vertical recovery in the game. Good luck with the edgeguarding.

As fox, watch out for the bair wall of pain, its extremely deadly. Try to throw off DDD's timing as best as you can.

 

[Mith_]

I'm glad the discussion is on Fox now, because I am training D3 and my buddy is training fox.

It is an interesting matchup. The laser spam gets annoying, but Waddles stop it in its tracks. That forces Fox to approach.

Like you stated Fox can juggle and combo the living daylights out of D3, tis so annoying. I can rarely get a hit in against Fox because he is so fast. No chain grab sucks too.

Only way I could really get Fox down a stock is by gimping.

IMO Fox has the advantage 70:30 or maybe 60:40.

 

[-Mars-]

I really think you move on to the next matchup way too fast. If your gonna do this you might as well just make individual threads for each character discussion so we can continue the discussion if we so choose.

 

[M@v]

I really think you move on to the next matchup way too fast. If your gonna do this you might as well just make individual threads for each character discussion so we can continue the discussion if we so choose.

we shreded the fox vs marth matchup to pieces in the marth boards, thats why i moved on so fast.

 

[JST]

Umm, don't mind me if I just list random points. A friend of mine plays Fox, but he's kinda lacking, but I'll contribute best I can based on my experience from fighting him...

-Fox can combo the ever-loving **** out of DDD like no one else's business.

-Fox is faster in just about every single way (Except DDD's bair).

-Fox's Usmash kills DDD around 120-130 IIRC.

-... Yeah once Fox gets a dair combo in it's ****-central from there.

-Fox can't be chaingrabbed (But he can be tech-chased).

-Fox can reflect Gordo (I think).

-Fox could probably bait Waddle spam with a SHDL and he can rush in and punish DDD's heavy lag.



As for DDD's advantages:

-DDD's Waddles shut down outright laser spam and force the use of SHDL. As a result DDD can harass Fox if not outright camp him.

-DDD outranges Fox in almost every other possible way (Although I think Fox's Fsmash has range on par with some of DDD's moves, although it's way too risky).

-I think all of DDD's moves (Except for nair) have priority over Fox's (I dunno about Usmash and dair).

-BIGGEST POINT: ALL of Fox's approach options are SHIELD-GRABBABLE. **** near ALL of them.

-Uthrow > Uair at low %s has a very good chance of hitting Fox for a free 15-30% if DDD has the timing down and Fox doesn't expect it.

-DDD kills Fox with Utilt pretty early (around 100 IIRC). A fresh Bair is a nightmare for Fox if he's at a high %.

-WoP spells death for Fox.

-Speaking of WoP, Bair ***** Fox's recovery HARD.

-DDD in the air >>>> Fox in the air. Fox would be crazy to pursue DDD while he's floating around.

-Fox's gimping options aren't fantastic, especially against DDD. However, DDD's UpB landing on the stage is very punishable by Fox.

-Fox doesn't want to be near DDD for long, even behind him - DDD's turnaround grab is so stupidly fast that it should be illegal.





Imo, this match is 4:6 or 35:65 (But that's really pushing it), DDD's favor. Fox can severely overwhelm DDD, but he's hampered by the fact that he has so few options against DDD while DDD has TONS of options for keeping Fox out. Even if Fox is extremely careful on spacing, DDD can sit there on his fat butt and just shield grab every attempt Fox makes to get near him. If Fox tries to force an approach with laser spam, DDD will just toss Waddle Dees to harass Fox. If the Fox runs in carelessly he'll eat an Ftilt to the face. If Fox is very careless with his movement and spacing he could eat an Fsmash. Also, once Fox is off stage he is in a very perilous position.

Fox should SHDL at every time a good opportunity presents itself. Not only does it rack up damage deceptively fast, but it can bait Waddle spam from DDD, which is the perfect opportunity for Fox to run in and punish. And once Fox gets a hit in, DDD is in for a massive hurting. Problem is, Fox has a bit of trouble killing DDD and DDD will know when Fox wants to get the Usmash in.


Yeah... Fox has to be very very very careful. For an idea on how careful Fox has to be, Ike's FAIR, which has obscene range, is shield-grabbable by DDD even with anything other than perfect spacing. It's a very risky undertaking for Fox.


... When reading my posts, just keep in mind I've never actually faced a tourney-level Fox before. Just a friend of mine who's just pretty good.

 

[KheldarVII]

One thing I can recommend to get close is what was previously stated with the baiting of Waddle Dees using SHDL and then make a quick approach using a series of perfect shields and shield dashes. After that you have to get more creative coming in from the air or getting close enough for DeDeDe to WANT to come at you. Your shield is just as good as his and I think it's a pretty good idea to force missed grabs. Just be careful you don't get a face full of dash attack if you're gonna use the spot dodge.

Basically, a series of deceptions. Kind of like with Marth but you have hope once you get in. Dedede will have a harder time getting back on the stage if you plan your steps right. And for the love of god, don't U-air that recovery.

 

[Chaco]

Okay not relating to the match up, but Kheldar I'll take the rent.

 

[JST]

ooh, just one quick thing to mention. A good DDD will NEVER try to land on the stage with the UpB unless you're vulnerable and/or being stupid in which case they're aiming to land on YOU or if they're out of jumps and they have no other option for recovery because you're guarding the ledge (Although they might mindgame you into jumping off the ledge to intercept him only to have him cancel the jump and sweespot the ledge while you run off looking dumb).

 

[KheldarVII]

ooh, just one quick thing to mention. A good DDD will NEVER try to land on the stage with the UpB unless you're vulnerable and/or being stupid in which case they're aiming to land on YOU or if they're out of jumps and they have no other option for recovery because you're guarding the ledge (Although they might mindgame you into jumping off the ledge to intercept him only to have him cancel the jump and sweespot the ledge while you run off looking dumb).

Very true.

 

[Fenrir VII]

One thing to note here...I'll speak more on the matchup later...

if DDD is open enough for an usmash, you can feel free to use it. not only is it easy to laser the big penguin 9 times... if he throws a waddle dee, you can sit there and laser it 9 times. Of course, don't get caught being lazy, but yeah...

Also, camping in the matchup is simple. just a SHDL will hit DDD at least once. the first laser will hit the waddle dee, stopping his motion, and the second will hit DDD. Whereas yeah, the dee's stop your lasers, you also stop his camping completely...which is one of his main points in matches...so that's a load off your mind. Honestly, i believe a fox could camp the entire match and win it... sure it's lame and requires a LOT of patience, but since you can flat out out speed him, I think it's possible.

Anyways, personally, I think it's a straight 5-5. I'll elaborate more later.

 

[KheldarVII]

Is there some hidden power to Fox that nobody else knows but you Fenrir or are you just super bias towards him that makes you call every matchup more towards Fox than everyone else?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Is there some hidden power to Fox that nobody else knows but you Fenrir or are you just super bias towards him that makes you call every matchup more towards Fox than everyone else?

Actually, I think I'm one of the only ones who sees that Fox is more than dair utilt... and honestly, a character who can combo quickly, force approaches, and kill early witha very fast move even out of shield... yeah, that character will be good.

I understand Fox is thought of as mediocre or terrible, but I think these labels are misguided. And honestly, if everybody here wants to become the new Roy boards and just complain about how bad their character is, then I'm ok with that. i'll stop posting... But I'm not just some hopeful scrub out here. I've got a lot of experience in the FL tournament scene...and of course, I'm still developing the character, but honestly, he's not as bad as people think.

His Bair has surprising range that nobody gives it credit for. His grab game is one of the best...not comboing, but very effective to setup the opponent. It comes out fast with decent range, and his pwg puts you out of range of almost all punishers. Add to that a shield approach, which can force your opponent into a bad situation...and you can usmash out of shield.

Also, his recovery is one of the most adaptable in the game. Yes, it can be gimped, but he has quite a few options with it.. Recovering high is quite good...and with a properly cancelled illusion, he can go VERY far, and slide during his recovery animation, almost taking away the punishers...not quite, but definitely added as a mixup. Add to that the fact that he can sweetspot the edge with illusion, firefox from above, or firefox below...and his recovery isn't quite so easy to punish. Again, I am speaking only if the player doesn't do the same stupid stuff everytime...which, for him to be a viable character, the player HAS to mix it up...this is similar to melee, but different in the fact that shine is no longer a "get out of jail free" card.

I understand Fox has some limitations...the main one being that he's quite light. the second being that if the player does not REALLY think during the match, he becomes quite predictable...but honestly, Fox can kill quite early, so being light isn't as bad as it could be... and he has enough mixups that keep him unpredictable in the right hands.

With a quick projectile and several reliable combos plus the grab game, if you're patient, you WILL get percentage on another player...and once you do, you have one of the best killing moves in the game....especially since it's viable out of shield.

Fox can also gimp some characters pretty well....this is certainly not universal, though. His dsmash sets up perfectly for his edge guarding. Fox is simply better than people give him credit for. done.


To explain why it feels like I'm doing the "Fox is even" with like every character, I believe he has no worse than a 4-6 against the entire top tier....for reasons I have been stating so far.

once you get into the lower tiers, Fox has a few problem matchups. Lucario and Luigi instantly come to mind...

Do I think Fox is the best in the game? no. Do I think he's viable for tournament play? definitely. To say otherwise about ANY character this early in the game is ridiculous. of course some characters seem limited, but they are not necessarily that way. I am talking based on my personal experience plus an in depth look into the pros and cons of each character in a matchup. At a recent fest down here (FL)...and every tournament in the past couple of months, I beat every MK I play. I three stocked a good player playing Falco twice. I've lost to Luigi, Snake, and DDD in tourney. Since then, I've been stressing those matchups, though. I went against the DDD in about my third week of playing Fox, so i was still unsure of reliable dair combos and other tactics...the more I learn about the character, the more wide open he seems, though.

 

[Xiivi]

Is there some hidden power to Fox that nobody else knows but you Fenrir or are you just super bias towards him that makes you call every matchup more towards Fox than everyone else?

He isn't that bad really, and he does bring up good points to allow for healthy arguments such that Fox match-ups don't end up biased against Fox. It's a very good thing you guys have him. -_-;;

 

[KheldarVII]

Well it's a good thing to elaborate on Fenrir. I'm on your side with this. There's a lot to Fox that we haven't found yet and it kills me that lots of people say he has no potential.

One thing a Snake player said to me about Fox was that Fox has a lot of options and that worries him.

What I'd like to get at now with Fox is to not shrug off his D-tilt or an offensive Fox Fire. Perhaps up the usage of Illusion during combos or throws.