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Fox Match-Up General Discussion

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M@v

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in order to cause less arguments, Im changing the ratios on the main page to reflect other boards. This is how they will be:


4:6-slight disadvantage




3:7-disadvantage


2:8-large disadvantage

1:9-HUGE disadvantage


same way with the advantages, they will get beefed up one. Its been causing too much confusion, especially with the other character boards
 

Emblem Lord

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Fenrir: Everything you just said is strategy. How Fox can win. What to do if G&W does such and such. G&W can do that too. Any player with a brain can.

Ratios are not reached through discussion of strategy. They are reached when you directly compare all the options each character has and the attributes they have to see how it would affect the match-up.

Overall G&W has more priority, better ways to control the match and it's much easier for him to take control. And he is much much safer. Anytime Fox approaches he puts himslef in danger and has no good pokes to stay safe.

G&W is so f*ckin safe is should be illegal.

Fox may be able to trade with G&W's Dair with his U-smash, but that's not something you wanna keep going for consistently since due to the range and speed of the bair more then likely G&W will win out. The reason Fox can trade with the bair is because he can run in under G&W's bair and his leg will smash the underside of G&W's body.

This takes alot of precision to pull off and it's not something you would try for often. It's not a reliable answer to G&W's bair. The same can be said of Foxes Bair. It requires precision. G&W can just throw out walls of disjointed lingering hitboxes that Fox must deal with using his mediocre options.

If Fox shields something from G&W he gets nothing for it, if the spacing is good on G&W's attack.

G&W shields something from Fox and even if Fox tries to space then G&W can still just up b then do an aerial or shield drop d-tilt. Two very good options.

Yes, Fox can dash grab. His dash grab that would lose out to G&W's Bair.

Dash to shield would be his best option, but his defensive options out of shield are crap so he can't do much once he gets in. He has u-smash, but it's only one move and G&W can just space himself well to avoid retaliation from that and then up b when he lands from a SH Bair. Dash to shield is better vs G&W's d-tilt. But still overall G&W controls the match.

70/30 G&W's favor.
 

Fenrir VII

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Fenrir: Everything you just said is strategy. How Fox can win. What to do if G&W does such and such. G&W can do that too. Any player with a brain can.

Ratios are not reached through discussion of strategy. They are reached when you directly compare all the options each character has and the attributes they have to see how it would affect the match-up.

Overall G&W has more priority, better ways to control the match and it's much easier for him to take control. And he is much much safer. Anytime Fox approaches he puts himslef in danger and has no good pokes to stay safe.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about here...

And yes, I talk strategy, because that is what wins matches. Your argument is also based in strategy...it has to be, as the only Foxes that are around, mostly, are ones that think Dair is his only approach. Therefore, in your thinking, that is what Fox can do...and only that, and that is what you base your arguments on. Of course this is an exaggeration, but I'm just trying to make a point with it.

Fox actually does have good pokes in both bair and ftilt. surprisingly good.

I have to wonder, with the remarks you make, if you have any idea how Fox actually plays now...and if not, why you are here.

Fox may be able to trade with G&W's Dair with his U-smash, but that's not something you wanna keep going for consistently since due to the range and speed of the bair more then likely G&W will win out. The reason Fox can trade with the bair is because he can run in under G&W's bair and his leg will smash the underside of G&W's body.

This takes alot of precision to pull off and it's not something you would try for often. It's not a reliable answer to G&W's bair. The same can be said of Foxes Bair. It requires precision. G&W can just throw out walls of disjointed lingering hitboxes that Fox must deal with using his mediocre options.
I understand why it works. I also understand THAT it works. so why exactly is it not something I would try for often? If you seriously are going to give the "it's hard" argument, you're talking to the wrong person. honestly, if the GW is trying to bair spam me, I throw it on almost every SH....until they stop. it works, so why would I not use it? even if it's "precise" and hard to use...

If Fox shields something from G&W he gets nothing for it, if the spacing is good on G&W's attack.

G&W shields something from Fox and even if Fox tries to space then G&W can still just up b then do an aerial or shield drop d-tilt. Two very good options.

Yes, Fox can dash grab. His dash grab that would lose out to G&W's Bair.

Dash to shield would be his best option, but his defensive options out of shield are crap so he can't do much once he gets in.
You can actually get a safe roll in after any of GW's aerials...and keep applying pressure. I agree...if GW spaces perfectly, Fox can't get anything except a couple lasers or a dash in...which usually will lead to a grab..

Also, your options out of shield don't work to a fox who lands behind you, or a well-spaced bair.


I'm not sure why you use my arguin strategy as a problem in this... Of course strategy will be involved. I am listing things that CAN arise and WILL arise in the match to show that Fox has a much more favorable match than you think. You say that anybody with a brain can do that, so be my guest...tell me how anything I said is wrong.

5/5
 

Emblem Lord

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How can it possibly be 5/5 when Fox's tools are so mediocre and G&W's are amazing?

Also...can you make this interesting for me at least?

You are being really boring with this.

All you say to me is, "You don' t know what you are talking about."

I mean...is that all? Seriously?

Come on. You can do better.

Bair is a bad poke. Doesn't come out instantly and has poor range. F-tilt is decent, but has less range then alot of other good pokes in this game, so it's average in comparison.

Don't confuse strategy with match-up analysis BTW. Two different things.

This is analysis. We compare options and attributes and basic gameplay. Going really deep into what each character can do and all that Yomi layering stuff makes things harder too examine objectively. If a character has a basic reliable response to a situation, that's one thing...but.....dash to u-smash anytime G&W SH's so you can attempt to stuff a bair?

No.

You would get baited and punished easily.

I mention Foxes Dair alot because it's his most effective approach move that is unique to him. And it's still pretty mediocre which says alot about him as a character.

Seems like all you can really say is..well Fox can do this in this situation which helps him out so it's even.

Ummmm, no.

That's not how it works. Whoever controls the match better has advantage. G&W and Fox do not have equal opportunity to gain control. It can't be even. G&W is superior with superior tools. This is his match.
 

Fenrir VII

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How can it possibly be 5/5 when Fox's tools are so mediocre and G&W's are amazing?
you keep saying this...I disagree with you. GW's tools are not amazing as you say and they are overused for what they are. I said bair can be beaten with usmash...that's true...so how is it so amazing in this match again? oh yeah, it's really not. I mean, it's good still, but not amazing.

Also...can you make this interesting for me at least?

You are being really boring with this.

All you say to me is, "You don' t know what you are talking about."

I mean...is that all? Seriously?

Come on. You can do better.
haha...you honestly trying to insult me? good job. back to the discussion....and you didn't exactly say how it is you "know" all these things...

Bair is a bad poke. Doesn't come out instantly and has poor range. F-tilt is decent, but has less range then alot of other good pokes in this game, so it's average in comparison.
Not sure why you argue with this. they still work in this match well...so what's the issue?

Don't confuse strategy with match-up analysis BTW. Two different things.

This is analysis. We compare options and attributes and basic gameplay. Going really deep into what each character can do and all that Yomi layering stuff makes things harder too examine objectively. If a character has a basic reliable response to a situation, that's one thing...but.....dash to u-smash anytime G&W SH's so you can attempt to stuff a bair?

No.

You would get baited and punished easily.
Matchups are nothing without strategy, though. so I believe they are one and the same. if you do not argue that GW is limited in what he can do and the each situation has a counter by Fox, then you miss the large part of the matchup. If you simply want character vs character, turn on two lvl 9 comps and let them go at it...or take frame data and completely compile move for move the entire matchup. but that is secondary to what each character is able to do in each situation....which was what I was arguing all along. a GW only has a couple viable options in every scenario. granted...he is a high tier because what he has is good...it's still beatable....and actually easy, if done correctly.

And yes, if usmash beats bair...even if it's baited later, you got what you did get with it...and GW learns to be VERY careful with his bair...because it can be baited doesn't mean it's not completely viable....it's just another option.

I mention Foxes Dair alot because it's his most effective approach move that is unique to him. And it's still pretty mediocre which says alot about him as a character.
This is what shows your ignorance about the character. it's not his best approach. not nearly. I guess he's the only one with his dair...sure, but that is true about all his moves.

Seems like all you can really say is..well Fox can do this in this situation which helps him out so it's even.

Ummmm, no.

That's not how it works. Whoever controls the match better has advantage. G&W and Fox do not have equal opportunity to gain control. It can't be even. G&W is superior with superior tools. This is his match.
If a Fox maneuver beats all of those "amazing" tools...then why is that not a valid argument? honestly, i'd like to know. you've been stuck on "Fox is a mediocre character" without, seemingly, much more knowledge than several of the scrubs on this board abd the character.

I can give you a counter to pretty much everything GW has with Fox...and you are calling me down for that as it is "not discussing the match-up"... And yet it is. All I am saying is Fox has an option against everything...and GW's relative lack of good tactics leaves Fox completely open for it. GW has several REALLY good ones...and then that's it...it's over. If fox can counter them, as I believe he can, he should win the match. what's the problem you have with that?
 

Fenrir VII

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*grabs popcorn*. Heated debate between two people brings out the best of character discussion.
Well honestly, I'm about done with him...on every corner, he assumes something about Fox that isn't true...he still hasn't shown how he's actually able to discuss this with any knowledge at all.

every argument I make, he comes back with "Fox is mediocre, GW is amazing."

I truly hope that the people around here can see that he's doing this. he's doing it on the Marth board too...it just gets tedious because i will never convince him over his bias in it.

I feel I have given good examples of Fox's match in this. and I feel that he has fallen back with "stop talking strategy. GW is amazing"

therefore, I don't consider this a good debate.
 

Emblem Lord

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See here is the thing.

You will call me ignorant, but then you don't talk about what Fox has that is good. You just mention things he can do in response to situations.

My question is this.

What does Fox have that allows him to take control?

If all he can do is react and try to wait for G&W to do something then he is in trouble.

The moves you have listed simply aren't reliable and consistent enough to throw out repeatedly to beat out G&W's moves.

All tactics have counters. But we are human and some tactics require more precision then others while others are braindead. G&W is braindead with powerful tools.

Fox requires much more thought and he has average tools.

G&W can switch between grabs, d-tilts and bairs to aggro Fox and it's on Fox to be able to choose the appropriate answer.

Fox has no way to take control and for the most part G&W will dominate.

And please please educate me on Fox's capabilities.

I would love to hear about the situational and unsafe shenanigans he has.

But no seriously...Fighting games are cake. They are not hard to analyze. Look at a characters movelist. If it's good they are good. If it's average they are average. If it sucks then they suck.

Unless they have an amazing glitch or AT to supplement their movelist, then nothing is really going to help them out or make them better.
 

A2ZOMG

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ten times better? really?
Fox is terrible in Brawl. Nothing is going to change that.
and did you just use matchups against other characters to base your Fox matchup on? tsk tsk. that won't exactly fly here.
Take characters that have better range and better approach and defensive options than Fox who have a hard time vs G&W. If they have a hard time and either go even or lose, then Fox certainly isn't advantaged vs G&W, and is quite easily disadvantaged.

All Fox has on G&W is high KO power. Everything else about him sucks a lot.

Y'wanna challenge me to this matchup? I will first duck in case you are going to fire lasers. The instant you approach, I will D-tilt, and this will stop 99.9% of all direct attacks. If you try to go around the D-tilt, I will B-air you. Once you are above me, I will juggle you for as long as I please with the incredibly amazing N-air and U-air and Up-B, and once you are off stage I will eat your recovery alive either with B-airs on your Illusion, or slowfalled D-airs on your Firefox.
 

M@v

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Fox is terrible in Brawl. Nothing is going to change that.
I am going to have to call you on that one. Just because he was god in melee doesnt mean he sucks now. He is almost high tier, right where he should be in this stage of the metagame. Also, he still has many great qualities, and overall has modest matchup against the rest of the brawl cast. He is almost as good as wolf(using wolf because hes close to fox on the tier list, and they are quite similar). Only things Wolf got on him is better approaches( i would kill to let fox have wolf's fsmash) and a *cough*VERY SPAMMABLE *cough*blaster, the earlier being one of foxes weaknesses. Fox has a much better aerial game and better recovery.
 

-Mars-

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A character that is at the top of middle tier is in no way "horrible". I think people have this false opinion about Fox that he's helpless against the better characters. He actually does really well against characters like Snake and Metaknight. Any character with a speed/power/combo combination that Fox has is going to be a good character and will have very few matchups that he will be completely outclassed in.
 

A2ZOMG

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lol, you haven't read this. Fox shouldn't be mid tier. Only Lucien saved him from getting lower.

Xiivi said:
Everyone's been putting Fox way off where he deserves to be in most tier lists. I see him averaging like spot 13 to 18 or some stupid thing like that. He's terrible. His tournament standings are growing more and more laughable. Only a few people being able to do well with him, people who would do well with any character they choose (like Lucien). And still, even with that they usually use another character and if they do go solo Fox it usually only will get them a fifth at best. When you see Fox do well it's either a) a really good player or b) someone who depended on other characters more. Fox really only has a surprise factor, and it isn't even that good of one like a character such as Pokemon Trainer or Ganondorf might have. So Fox's tournament results really aren't that good, in fact if you take away the a) and b) you'd see he's really pretty low in results.

Then you have moveset. Man it's terrible. Fox has no approach options of worth. They are all very easy to deal with and don't really pose much of a threat. He's got dair for best results, and it easily is punished. It has little DI forcing Fox to commit to an easily shieldgrab for his opponent. When it comes to other options, it's fairly useless. He has nair which has little range and is also easily punished. He has fair which has a lot of DI making it hard to punish, but it pushes him too high to be of use on most characters. He's got illusion, which is laughable. He's got bair which won't get him far. He's got dash attack, which is subpar at best. His ability to get in a grab due to his speed is good, too bad it leads to nothing in all directions at all percents.

Which basically leaves him with no safe approaches on any and all characters, forcing him to attempt to force the opponent to approach. He's got lasers and a reflector in order to attempt to accomplish such a thing. However, this isn't going to do much for him. His lasers offer low mobility and are easily weaved around if Fox is doing SH lasers. If he's doing standing lasers then he's a sitting duck. Not to mention is reflector isn't the best when it comes to prevent him from being spammed. Most characters will end up forcing him to approach in the end, sadly. Not to mention when they do finally approach, his options are limited still. Fox's moveset is very vanilla and easily predictable. It's hard to keep it fresh, nothing strings together. None of his combos that people think work are actually all easily punished.

So Fox can't approach and he can't do much if he does successfully approach. The best he can do is run away and go for another 10% later. He builds damage rather slowly when played against correctly (i.e. not falling for lousy up-tilt juggles and dair to whatever combos that are easily escaped.) His lasers can't do much when you realize he can't maneuver at all with them and punish this. So when he gets approached he has the same problem. He can make the opponent go away with his very few, easy to predict and punish options. That's about it. Fox is usually forced into mid-range battle because of this. Fox is terrible at mid-range. Out of long range, mid range, and close range, mid is probably what he wants to avoid most. Too bad he'll always be forced into it if his opponent knows how to handle him. Fox is easily outranged with this and can't use lasers without being punished at all. The best thing he has for mid range is side tilt, which doesn't help much at all.

When it comes to killing, Fox is pretty limited. He has his smashes, uair and bair are probably what you want to use. Sadly, uair is very obvious and easily avoided, it really shouldn't connect. Bair will really only work for edgeguarding, which Fox can't do well since he can't commit more than two inches off the stage without putting himself in a terrible position. If Fox goes past this point, he'll most likely find himself the one being edgeguarded. So that leaves the smashes. Forward smash and downsmash are easily punished and takes higher percents than needed to successfully kill. They both can set up for edgeguarding pretty well. Too bad Fox can't edgeguard well. Then you're left with upsmash. Great kill move, one of his few redeeming factors. However, due to Fox's vanilla-like qualities, it becomes a one-option that becomes easily predicted to the point where it won't be killing into percents where it's potential to kill low doesn't even matter anymore. So Fox pretty much is obvious when it comes to killing. His best idea is to hopefully land a dair at around the 100% mark where it will trip the opponent and connect it to an upsmash. It's reliable, except it is harder than it seems vs an opponent aware of this.

But we have even more problems with this character. Lets talk about recovery. He has very few options. Fox travels vertically very fast and horizontally fairly slow. This means that unlike other characters, Fox simply can't DI up when hit off the stage and then DI back towards the stage gracefully. No, Fox is actually going to have to use his recovery. Sadly for Fox his recovery is subpar at best. Firefox is unusable due to having no priority, limited range, and a long wind-up. Making it easily intercepted and basically useless. Then you have illusion which is easily predicted. Not to mention it's shorter than Falco's, along with more wind-up and cool-down time. Easily punished. Fox is basically forced to rely on the following strategy for recovering: DI towards the stage. Use you second jump with a rising fair as late as possible. Use an illusion. All while having shine-stalling in mind to space yourself so you don't get intercepted by your opponent. However, this only gets you so far and doesn't allow for a good or even decent recovery.

Yet sadly, Fox's problems don't even end there. Fox's match-ups are terrible as well thanks to Fox's falling speed. Fox falling speed doesn't offer any advantages to Fox's match-ups really. It doesn't allow him to combo his opponent with blistering running speed coupled to it. Instead it allows for Fox to be comboed easily to high percents without much hope by a slew of characters. Couple this with Fox's absurdly low weight and he's pretty much always going to be dieing quickly in a lot of matches. A lot quicker than he can do things. Fox's upsmash will kill another Fox at a lower percent than it will kill kirby. That should be a testament to just how light this guy is. One of Fox's few good attributes is his upsmash killing at low percents. Sadly this isn't going to do anything other than make matches go faster when most characters have a move that will end up killing Fox at an even lower percent. Not to mention many characters will be easily comboing Fox to his death percents much easier than Fox will be getting them to theirs.

If anything, this is Fox's match-ups:
Fox N/A
Pikachu 2-8 (Pikachu)
Falco 2-8 (Falco)
Olimar 3-7 (Olimar)
Sheik 3-7 (Sheik)
Kirby 3-7 (Kirby)
Zero Suit Samus 3-7 (Zero Suit Samus)
Lucario 3-7 (Lucario)
Metaknight 3-7 (Metaknight)
Ice Climbers 4-6 (Ice Climbers)
R.O.B. 4-6 (R.O.B.)
Donkey Kong 4-6 (Donkey Kong)
Peach 4-6 (Peach)
King Dedede 4-6 (King Dedede)
Toon Link 4-6 (Toon Link)
Zelda 4-6 (Zelda)
Mr. Game & Watch 4-6 (Mr. Game & Watch)
Snake 4-6 (Snake)
Marth 4-6 (Marth)
Luigi 4-6 (Luigi)
Wolf 5-5
Ike 5-5
Wario 5-5
Diddy Kong 5-5
Pit 5-5
Lucas 5-5
Pokemon Trainer 5-5 (all three surprisingly)
Samus 5-5
Mario 5-5
Ness 5-5
Bowser 5-5
Sonic 6-4 (Fox)
Jigglypuff 6-4 (Fox)
Yoshi 6-4 (Fox)
Link 6-4 (Fox)
Ganondorf 6-4 (Fox)
Captain Falcon 7-3 (Fox)

Most of the worst are due to Fox being easily comboed to a percent he can be killed just from a grab. Followed by match-ups where Fox is just easily controlled or easily killed. Then for the neutral match-ups Fox can't be controlled or killed to easily. The few positive match-ups are where Fox won't be controlled and can actually control himself.

There is no positive for Fox anywhere. Bland moveset, terrible physics, terrible match-ups, no solid tournament results outside of a few good characters piloting him to a subpar position. Stop placing Fox so darn high. He does not deserve to be grouped among or above good characters such and kirby, donkey kong, ice climbers, etc... He's easily on the level of Lucas, Ness, Pokemon Trainer. I'd say somewhere around spots 24 to 30 work for him fairly well for him, but not the usual 13 to 18 I see. Best I can see him is bottom of mid, when he really should be around the middle of low. Once you learn to play against him, he's easily controlled and taken care of. Lots of one-sides match-ups, lots of disadvantages in general, few neutral matches, and few advantages all against less than notable characters.

Don't let me fool you, Fox is awesome and fun to use. But isn't worth it in the end if the surprise factor isn't going to win it for you. If your opponents know what to do against Fox, then you can expect to lose. If your opponents are clueless then you can expect to barely squeak a win by if you use some other good character to help.

And thus ends my, 'Fox is a terrible character' rant.
And to sum that up:

Teh_Spammerer said:
Old news. Fox is terrible. Fox has drill uptilt, fair, and random fsmash/upsmash. That's 99.9% of his game. The person's ideas for Fox's matchups are very bad though. Fox doesn't have problems killing though. Run up to someone, shield, upsmash out of shield after they hit it. Call a roll/sidestep/airdodge and upsmash.
 

-Mars-

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So in this post Fox is even with Wario, Wolf, Diddy, and Pit and he has slight disadvantages against Snake, Marth, G&W, DDD, DOnkey Kong, and ROB....how does this make him terrible? I don't see how a character that can compete with most of the top and high tier characters is "terrible".Granted some of the stuff in that post is true but a lot of it is exaggeration. Sure he's got some problems but seriously what character below him on the tier list should be above him?
 

Fenrir VII

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I actually stopped reading that after

Falco: 2-8
Olimar: 3-7
Metaknight: 3-7

hahahahah xD



People who are not informed should not speak as if they are. Certain people like to hear themselves talk, though.
 

Fenrir VII

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olimar 3-7 wtf?
Falco 2-8 wtf?


Please, get that list out of here, its horrifically inaccurate.
Everything that every non-fox main says here is horrifically inaccurate. That's what I'm saying. Like, I would never argue that ness, or Samus, or PT, or Jiggs, etc is a horrible character, because I don't personally have any idea what they will be capable of.

These people honestly get by on that "Fox is terrible" nonsense that I can only imagine is accepted as truth by the Back Room. And why that kind of person has the gall to come to a Fox board and spout that idiocy is beyond me...especially since they show no actual knowledge of the character. they are limited by what the average scrub Fox does, and that is an inaccurate vision. Why they can't see this, I don't know.

That's why i'm having trouble arguing with them. They're stuck on this "Fox is terrible and limited and overall crap" mindset, that I can't figure out how to break that....without just developing my Fox and showing a tourney scene. You can argue on paper all day without getting anywhere...that does not mean you're going to form an accurate portrayal of the character, as evidenced by the rather long quoted post and the person who actually thought it was legitimate to post. ha.
 

M@v

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^backroom put him almost at high tier, thats pretty good.



Ok well we have had some great input so far. Im going to end the G&W discussion for now. He is staying at disadvantage 3:7(its the same thing as 4:6 before the ratio change). Basically, he wont move.


NEXT UP. MARTH



The Marth boards are currently on fox, so we have agreed to analyze the matchup jointly. The overall opinion there is that this matchup is a 35:65 or a 30:70 fox disadvantage. Discuss. And post in their thread as well.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193234
 

Ulevo

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Fox unfortunately does not have sufficient speed to compensate for the range difference between the two characters. Aside from laser camping and using shield tactics in close range, he really doesn't have much he can do.

Marth has a FThrow (or DThrow, can't remember now) to FSmash at low percent to start the battle off for 26-27%+ if Fox gets in too close.

Fox can camp using SHDL but unfortunately due to how fast Marth is, he loses to Marths Zoning capabilities.

Their recovery is about equal. Fox coves more distance than Marth on average, but it is much easier to gimp.

Fox's kill moves are more reliable than Marths simply because they're fast, hard to punish, and most of them combo out of the Dair. So this is one benefit Fox has over Marth. However, this still presents the problem that Fox needs to get in close.

The best tactics Fox has are close quarters. However, getting into that range of fight is very difficult considering the range and speed on Marths moves. Even if Fox gets in close, it takes one Dolphin Slash mid combo or Counter or Throw in any direction to reset the spacing and then it goes back to Fox either camping or finding a way in that range again.

I like Fox a lot, but this match up doesn't smile upon him very much. 70-30 I think is fair. I wouldn't go any lower than that until something new develops for Fox's game.
 

Zhamy

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Sorry, but it is (Jigglypuff whise). Dair to spike done properly is inescapable. Please look up on the boards, its THE killing move of JP.
For Fox, Dair->Usmash done properly is inescapable. I'd have to say that Usmash is more versatile than Rest.
 

Shaya

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Marth has a superior ground game.
The reason for this is due mostly to Marth's super range and move speed. In Fox's corner is the lack of range and ease of punishing if one is to hit Marth's shield. The opposite situation doesn't ring true, as Marth's dancing blade is extremely fast and powerful, and Marth also has a large array of brickwalls and traps that do not allow progression even if your shield was to be hit.
Fox's ground damaging racking is often considered based on his blaster because of his weaker ground game. Marth's is his dancing blade, which is honestly much superior.

Fox's air game cannot force anything against a grounded Marth, and any time Fox is in the air while Marth is on the ground is high risk. Fox's biggest damage and strategy relating move is the dair. Which when shielded is not going to be pretty, when not shielded the move can be DI'd out of and or dolphin slash'd out of. However this doesn't take too much away from the usefulness of the move as it can trip, and can combo to upsmash to kill at around 90%.

In clashing of both their air games, Marth has superior range, while the speed is similar. Marth's brilliant fair is not outprioritised by any of Fox's aerials.

Marth approaching through the air leaves a similar situation as ground v ground. His air approaches while being well spaced doesn't give Fox consistant options to retaliate or punish.

In the battle for offstage the useful Shine spike is not so useful against Marth either. Marth's Dolphin Slash comes with invincibility frames and fast movement. Fox's recovery is a lot easier to counter and gimp.

While earlier today I was hounded by Fox mains and onlookers alike for my mentioning of 'illusion' as a viable move, I still don't stand corrected. Illusion is both a good spacing tool and a minor punisher.

A simple request I have of the Fox boards though. Please debate without personal experience. You state we don't know Fox well enough. We proclaim there is no such need. Fox is not presented highly or consistantly at a high level of play. If you believe this is a misconception or you're out to change that, please prove it to us.
 

Steel

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We said pretty much everything in the other thread, but in my personal opinion I feel the best way for Fox to win this match is to play ghey.

Go for a big stage, and just use SHDL to rack up the %. Marth gets close? You won't win. GTFO of there. Use forward b or just use the great speed that fox has to escape and continue the camping.

Obviously you can throw in other moves in there if the Marth makes a mistake, but I would say this is your most reliable way of racking up damage. Once you get to about 90% with lasers and pokes just up smash.

This is also the best way for Falco to the play the match up, though because he has slightly better tools than fox in some areas and a stun laser makes that match up only a 60:40 marth favor.

Honestly, how else can Fox win if he doesn't play gay?
 

RPK

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This is to that previous conversation...I dont give a **** if Fox sucks, I kick *** with him and will continue doing so despite what people say.
Dont believe in yourself, but believe in me who believes in you!

Row Row Fight the Powah​
 

M@v

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Marth has a superior ground game.
While earlier today I was hounded by Fox mains and onlookers alike for my mentioning of 'illusion' as a viable move, I still don't stand corrected. Illusion is both a good spacing tool and a minor punisher.
I said it sucked as an approach, which you specifically said as one of its uses. Not as a spacer and punisher.
 

Emblem Lord

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It should be used to reset the match.

Nothing other then that really.
 

Fenrir VII

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You state we don't know Fox well enough. We proclaim there is no such need. Fox is not presented highly or consistantly at a high level of play. If you believe this is a misconception or you're out to change that, please prove it to us.
I took one tidbit, because I really don't feel like picking apart your claims and leading into this again.

I take this because of two sentences, basically.

First of all, you don't know Fox well enough. Second, you say there's no need.

So you mean to tell me that in a debate of a matchup between two characters, knowledge of the second character is irrelevant? That's an interesting claim...I can take that claim and say marth has a 7-3 match against the entire game...without you really being able to argue with me, as I don't need to know any of the other characters better.

To say something like that is laughable.

And you basically said what i said last night... in paraphrase, you won't change your mind until Fox does well in tournaments... so why would we waste our time debating with you here? Fox has not done well in tournaments yet, so everything we can say about him will be cast aside by you.

I'm not sure if there's any other way to prove it to you. I mean, I will play you online, but that proves next to nothing...so basically, since it is impossible to argue with somebody so narrow-minded, I won't.
 

JigglyZelda003

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@ Fenfen
this is why people lose to random low tier characters cause they think, they suck anyway so i shouldn't have to really know much about them to win. then they either lose or win by a hair. lol

@steel2nd
lasers are nice, but even on a large stage its gonna take forever and a day to do a rescpectable amount of damage relying moslty on lasers. and one Marths DB w/ the down hit finish can easily equal that out if you get caught in it.
 

soul ark

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im not sure if i can say too much that wont et on every marths bad side but......

use the laser every chance you get because in order for a fox to win this match you cant let it last too long so i would try to sneak them in.

im not sure about all of marths approach options but what i am sure of is his SH side air and his side b

for starters
all of marths sh moves are pretty much predictable unless the marth was to say fast fall and grab (sorry) or stay there (which may be a problem unless you have quick fingers in which case i would say go for the rapid a for a quick 2 seconds and call it quits.) if he's close to you and he jumps or if he jumps and is close to you it's very likely that he will try to hit you spot dodge (if your nice) or shield (better option)

when you see a side b go on and you cant do an attack my thing is do go behind him there is the possibility that marth will stop but in my experience they only stop at the second or third attack (which is enough time for you to do some damage or run away (hey im not here to judge)


the name of the game is run shoot punish one of the worst thing that can happen in this match is fox getting predictable or lazy. marth has no business being beyond 110% because not only is marth trumping you with a spacing game (usually) he's usually predicting so end it quick

and as a side note if you can knock marth off horizontally dont go for a gimp just grab the ledge marth either shoots an up b early which is dumb on his part or will go under the stage and up-b, grab the ledge or if you are already on the ledge get up cuz it can stage spike you do it only once because marth can stall using the side b

just a few things to sit on
 

Steel

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@ Fenfen
this is why people lose to random low tier characters cause they think, they suck anyway so i shouldn't have to really know much about them to win. then they either lose or win by a hair. lol

@steel2nd
lasers are nice, but even on a large stage its gonna take forever and a day to do a rescpectable amount of damage relying moslty on lasers. and one Marths DB w/ the down hit finish can easily equal that out if you get caught in it.
Down hit??? DI out of that and punish the Marth for being so stupid and using that combo.

And yes it will take forever.
 

Shaya

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Fenrir, you are yet again saying very naive things.
I suppose the 'prove it to us' means nothing to you. That did not mean go out and win tournaments. You throw out something that will work against Marth, such an approach, or a great defensive manoeuvre. We will even concede that it is very reliable and is dangerous to us, or we counter it and PROVE that it is not so useful.

You sir debate like an immature child. Instead of actually trying to counter what I've said about what makes Marth superior to Fox, you throw out an argument about a minor conclusion. Even the argument against this coming from you is weak. Shape up. You either concede or you try to prove us wrong.

Do you concede, or do you have reasonable grounds to actually continue the debate?
70-30 our way.

The ball is firmly in your court.

And the wisdom of my words have been ignored by you anyway. I said we don't need to know, as prerequisite for this debate; this doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant personally, but in the meaning of debate I am presumed to be. From what I've stated Fox has nothing.
Right now I'm going to throw out and say its 100-0 Marth's way. Actually, 80-20 because I myself pointed out some of Fox's strengths. You can do better.
 

soul ark

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good lord we're just coming up with tactics and strategies why are you getting so mad that your characters are a few points shy of being even to fox. yea fox is a high risk fighter and he's not really reliable but if you apply something on to it then fox will have a fighting chance.

i see it like this any character can beat any other character it's just how much work they need to put in to get the win. say for instance game and watch vs fox is 30:70 respectively. to me all that mean is that you will need to work 75 percent harder than normal to win. no batlle is hopeless you get in what you put out

now back to what i was saying

please please dont come for the good of our community dont come here and say fox cant beat _____ just because you main him and you think you have an idea of how a real fox plays cause you probably dont the only anti fox post which is helpful is saying "i dont think so and this is why..." your not helping anyone by saying (fox cant spam da laza on mk, mk to fast) thats why i favor emblem lords posts and fen's

yes they are situational the thing about it is forcing the situation to occur. the only part i didn't like about the argument is that it became more of a (you dont know this .... no your stupid) situation.

but please make a productive quote not this belligerent nonsense i keep seeing oh so often

and whats with all these marths coming to the board it's like your insecure about the match up even though it's in your favor not by that much but certainly so. why is it that you guy's above all others need to prove more then every one else that marth is the greatest. it's like you have the emotions of a flowering middle school girl
 

JigglyZelda003

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i see it like this any character can beat any other character it's just how much work they need to put in to get the win.
*looks at Pikachu and cries*
*looks at Zamus and wonders if we can pay her to throw the fight....or at least not use Dsmash*

other than these 2 Fox can hold his own against the others.:)
 

Shaya

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I really, really, really see how fruitless this debate is. Especially one that is completely bias and often made by people with the lexical and grammatical skills of a 10 year old.

No one here knows how to debate. You don't even seem to understand what matchup discussions are for, or how they work. NO ONE CARES THAT YOU NEED TO WORK 75% HARDER TO BEAT A CHARACTER DUE TO A MATCH UP.

And it's not about insecurity it's about greater knowledge of the game we play. If you do not CARE then why are you in this thread trying to argue anything? I say 70-30, which is a pretty bad match up. All any of you ever say in return to such a statement is "You just don't know/understand Fox", "That's just your personal experience maaan [uhh NO]" or "IN MY EXPERIENCE IT ISNT THAT HARD". Guess what, all but the first statement actually have any relevance what so ever here. However, the first only is valid if you are going to BACK IT UP; something neither you nor any member of your board is able to do or even attempts to.
 

soul ark

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sigh why are you even here we haven't been able to talk about this match up or any match up scene you guys got here none of you have even noted any thing about marth or fox your just here adding fuel to the fire so knowledge isn't going to help neither is saying that it's a bad match up. why is it a bad match up what can we do to aviod it and so on.

oh all you guys have bad grammar and cant debate. note discussions often lead to debate but are still totally different thing no one will spend an entire page worshiping marth on a fox board im sorry he's just not that serious hence no one is debating and no one will debate because we are trying to discuss marth his up sides his down sides and how we can capitalize on his downs and avoid his ups. thats the strategy thats the percent you need to work on to get your self on even ground if you dont like it fine i didn't ask you too

is it even possible that you can say something that will add and not hinder the discussion.

so im guessing what you guys do is go around spreading unwanted "knowledge and grammar all across the boards fantastic, and what fox have you faced no really tell us and enlighten us on a character you clearly know nothing about and tell me ignorance of a characters play style is relevant.

and why do we need to prove it to you do we need your approval. "um im not sure if i should shine spike this guy... what it's too risky... but you havn't even played as fox... you know more than me.... okay" bull
 

Zhamy

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I say 70-30, which is a pretty bad match up.
Calling this closer to 65:35, but that's not much of a change. I think stage choice makes a Marth simply outranges Fox on the ground and has more reliable approach options.

In the air, Fox has some advantages and disadvantages. Nair and Bair clank if spaced properly, and it is very possible for Fox to punish an approach-retreat Fair from Marth.

SideB from Marth gives Fox the same trouble that it gives everyone else, so while it's nothing special against Fox, it's not nice either. Marth's other ground approaches aren't horribly threatening to Fox, but that's not to say they're horrible.

Fox has trouble approaching Marth, but it's not impossible. Fair, if shielded, will poke through if done correctly. Dair is a bit harder on Marth because Marth has options, should Fox land behind him. Overall, Fox's approach isn't something to rely on.

On defense, there's the usual laser spam. And this is why the stage matters. On a larger stage, Fox has enough mobility to space well, but on smaller stages, there's just not enough room to exploit all the maneuverability that Fox has. This was covered above by another poster.

Both have pretty punishable recoveries - Fox can bait DS ridiculously easily, Marth can interrupt FFox and Illusion with relative ease.

Overall, both have relatively good combos on each other, with decent chances at killing. Marth does have a few more tricks, noticeably better range, and better approach options, which swings the match in Marth's favor. Stage does matter, though, so I'd stick this square at 35:65 to account for that.


and whats with all these marths coming to the board it's like your insecure about the match up even though it's in your favor not by that much but certainly so. why is it that you guy's above all others need to prove more then every one else that marth is the greatest. it's like you have the emotions of a flowering middle school girl
Whoa there, buddy. It's the internet. Calm down. They're here to debate a matchup.

something neither you nor any member of your board is able to do or even attempts to.
I can speak for myself, thank you very much.
 
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