Pr0fessor Flash
Smash Master
It would be a decent mix up. Most people DI Up Smash off stage normally so they would Die way earlier
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
CeLL
Smash Lord
Also is uthrow -> dair -> grounded shine a thing on spacies if they don't DI?
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Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
No that's not a thing. If you D-air someone who is in the air, they can always shield as soon as they hit the ground if they just hold it. If you want to shine you're better off with u-throw shine.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
waveshine fsmash is often the most efficient way to get somebody off stage. Characters like falcon and sheik are often screwed if they can't make it back to the stage with just their DJ, but at like 50 dsmash might not hit them far enough but upsmash they don't have to DI off stage necessarily...or if they do they can recover high and often get back on more easily
CeLL
Smash Lord
Assuming that they will ledgetech if possible, how do I go about edgeguarding a spacie trying to sweetspot the ledge from below with up B?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Intercept them before they hit the edge and cover their post-tech options.
To intercept, one good option is to refresh your invincibility and input fastfall->[shine->]bair->fastfall->lcancel. If they tech, you are at frame advantage after the lcancel and can dsmash/shine/ramen noodle on reaction.
To intercept, one good option is to refresh your invincibility and input fastfall->[shine->]bair->fastfall->lcancel. If they tech, you are at frame advantage after the lcancel and can dsmash/shine/ramen noodle on reaction.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
ledgehop drill is also a good option
CeLL
Smash Lord
Can Fox dash dance grab every aerial in the game?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
What druggedfox said. Shineturnaround ledgehop drill is probably the easiest way tot edgeguard spacies. Drop down after drill clips them and shinespike with tour invincibility
CeLL
Smash Lord
When double shining how fast does the B -> Y input have to be in order to avoid being grabbed or shined OoS? I know that it's pretty lenient for timing, unlike the Y -> B input.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
At what percent (pre-throw) does upthrow upair kill jiggs in Dreamland?
And while I'm at it what point can puff jump out/not get hit by it?
And while I'm at it what point can puff jump out/not get hit by it?
Against fox, he can jump OoS 2 frames later than you can out of shine, so technically he can go even or beat your double shine if you aren't almost frameperfect. Falco has 2 frames more jumpsquat, so it's 4 frames window against him. Against grabs that hit frame 7, you have 6 frame window.
I would advice you to practice to be as fast as possible with your double shines, as there isn't much of a point in doing them in the first place if the opponent can roll or jump out of them.
Pr0fessor Flash
Smash Master
Which way would you DI Marth's Forward Throw or Back Throw to avoid getting Tippered F-Smash
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you shine someone during jumpsquat, are they considered airborne so that they landing cancel the hitstun, or are they considered grounded so that you can still waveshine combo them?
Mr Cats
Smash Rookie
A few pretty specific questions:
To what does "landfallspeciallag" refer under Fox Illusion and Firefox?
Does anyone have the frame data on the boost grab?
Does anyone have the frame data on get-up attack (before and beyond 100%)?
Does anyone have the frame data and ledge movements (regular get-up, get-up attack, jump) at all percents?
I'd test this stuff myself, but I don't have access to Melee for a while-- hence the studying to make up for lack of practice.
To what does "landfallspeciallag" refer under Fox Illusion and Firefox?
Does anyone have the frame data on the boost grab?
Does anyone have the frame data on get-up attack (before and beyond 100%)?
Does anyone have the frame data and ledge movements (regular get-up, get-up attack, jump) at all percents?
I'd test this stuff myself, but I don't have access to Melee for a while-- hence the studying to make up for lack of practice.
Pazx
hoo hah
What's the best way to apply pressure to somebody on a platform above me?
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
You have favorable position, maintaining that is pressure in itself. Place yourself in position to react to the main options: fall through the platform, [wave]dash off the platform, and full hop.
In most cases you can put your back to them (while still being below) and wait. Ideally you will be at the edge of the platform so if you fullhop you will cover the platform without landing on it, but spacing correctly to your opponent is more important. If they fall through you can utilt or bair. If they jump you do fullhop autocancel bair. If they try to run off the platform on top of you, utilt or bair should win.
Definitely depends on their DI and technically I don't think fox combos sheik at this percent regardless. What you end up doing is covering the 2 options sheik has: fall with nair/bair or double jump (people usually aerial I find). If sheik doesn't DI, I like to do utilt->usmash because utilt is an amazing anti-air and usmash does a lot of damage and often leads into a uair or bair. If she DIs I just try to trade usmash with her bair, for the same reason as before.
Diana's Safe Landing
Smash Apprentice
Maybe at some percents? but not all. Using the reverse part of a dash grab to chain grab looks hilarious.
Mr Cats
Smash Rookie
Anyone have this information?
zz_halim
Smash Apprentice
landfallspeciallag means the helpless state you enter after these actions i think.
I have a question about waveland onto the stage. Does shining update your ECB so the timing is always the same?
Alright, thanks man. I just seem to drop the chaingrab a lot.
Mr Cats
Smash Rookie
Is there a thread/resource with the percents at which Fox's moves kill all relevant characters on neutral stages with survival DI?
Also, my frame questions above weren't answered.
Thanks, guys! I appreciate it!
Also, my frame questions above weren't answered.
Thanks, guys! I appreciate it!
ERayz
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, can anybody watch these matches and help me with the questions below? That would be very appreciated 
Vs Lampadaires (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtJR3AIfgyk
Vs Shunsuke (Sheik / Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JG3EcTKp4E
1- How do I avoid getting grabbed so often?
2- What do I do when I get grabbed, so I don't take as much damage?
3- What should I do between stocks, I feel very vulnerable when my opponent spawns and is in his invincibility frames...
4- Anything else you notice that I do really bad? (I'm aware that I miss a lot of up-smashes and up-throw --> upair opportunities, my techskill was pretty inconsistent that day)
Thanks!
Vs Lampadaires (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtJR3AIfgyk
Vs Shunsuke (Sheik / Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JG3EcTKp4E
1- How do I avoid getting grabbed so often?
2- What do I do when I get grabbed, so I don't take as much damage?
3- What should I do between stocks, I feel very vulnerable when my opponent spawns and is in his invincibility frames...
4- Anything else you notice that I do really bad? (I'm aware that I miss a lot of up-smashes and up-throw --> upair opportunities, my techskill was pretty inconsistent that day)
Thanks!
flammablelion
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 14, 2014
- Messages
- 2
I am terrible at tech chasing. How do I practice this?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
Yoo, I'm not gonna watch everything and give you a very in-depth critique now, but I'll give you one thing you can think about:Hey guys, can anybody watch these matches and help me with the questions below? That would be very appreciated
Vs Lampadaires (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtJR3AIfgyk
Vs Shunsuke (Sheik / Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JG3EcTKp4E
1- How do I avoid getting grabbed so often?
2- What do I do when I get grabbed, so I don't take as much damage?
3- What should I do between stocks, I feel very vulnerable when my opponent spawns and is in his invincibility frames...
4- Anything else you notice that I do really bad? (I'm aware that I miss a lot of up-smashes and up-throw --> upair opportunities, my techskill was pretty inconsistent that day)
Thanks!
You have to be more cognizant of when you can punish them still, and when they are coming out of hitstun and covering themselves.
I'll take your match vs Lampadaires.
1:20 - You pop him up with the back-air and he is dumb enough to waste his double jump. It's risky for him to come down so he covers his ass with a F-air. You recognize this and dash dance away and grab him. You get the punish. Now at 1:22, you get hit with the forward at the top platform because you tried WAY too hard. You knew 100% he was already out of hitstun and will be looking to cover himself from further damage. You should have just run up the platform and shielded. You can then drop with a SH B-air on his head and punish him.
Work on your DI. At 1:32, you DEFINITELY should have known he would F-smash and be ready to DI up and in, and you would have lived easily.
1:51 - You threw him up and realized he would come down with the F-air. It was very good to recognize this and shield, you see how it netted you the stock. If he did try to double jump over you, you could react with a full hop B-air and hit him out. Shielding was the safe (good) option here.
2:35 - You see him weaving back already, way out of range to grab the edge so he is bound to use him double jump. You botched the edgeguard here horrendously and here's why: You weren't facing away from the edge. Think about it, what are you options in the edgeguard when facing him? Fair? Nair? Fsmash? Run off shine? That's all bad. Face away and you can do the two most effective things in Fox edgeguarding, grabbing the ledge. Grabbing the ledge is the biggest forcer of hands in edgeguarding, especially in this situation. You can also back-air him, or shield and back-air out of that.
What you should have done here: Face away from the edge. As soon as you saw he was weaving back and knew he had to use his double jump, grab the edge so he can't. After that it's just refresh invincibility and wait for the jump or side B and B-air him to death.
2:48 - You face away from the edge and get the easy edgeguard. Good job, don't ever face towards the edge in a Marth edgeguard again unless you know what you're doing.
I like your neutral game but here's something. 3:11 - You were in your shield and he was dashdancing. You did a SH B-air out of shield and got grabbed for it. This is basically telling of how the whole neutral game works. Fox does an aerial first, whiffs it, gets grabbed. It's best to not go for aerials out of shield like that unless he hits you. The moment you were shielding you should have wavedashed out of shield away from him, which would be a better position for you than a back-air.
Like at 3:18 you get it right. He hits you, THEN you B-air.
3:20 - React faster. He teched in place right as you landed. That should have been a grab or a smash attack, instead you ran away, then came back and THEN tried to punish him shielding. It might have worked but whiff anyway and die for it.
You played him very well on the last stock, got your hits in. After that you just got Marthed.
For the neutral, here's a gameplan: Vs Marth it's a good idea to throw in one or two SHDL when you're far apart. This puts the pressure on him to approach. After that you return to the dashdance game and fish for the grab. Lets see if you laser more next game.
4:51 - Super scrubby N-air. This is like the most standard thing ever in the low level Fox vs Marth matchup. Fox N-airs in, Marth dashdances away and grabs him, Fox takes half his stock in %.
These side B's off the stage are getting really... :\
5:15 - You do it again, it's a full hop very early N-air. It wouldn't even knock him down so it had no chance of succeeding in any universe and you should have gotten grabbed and died for it. If you wanna get grabbed less think more about the aerials you throw out, where and why and what %s. Especially the N-air, the bane of all Foxes vs Marth.
6:24 - He has called you out on the side B off the ledge so many times, you should recognize this by now. Maybe refresh your invincibility one more time with a firefox stall to see where he moves.
6:52 - Ohoh, now that's the real classic. Marth has his double jump and is in front of you. They are very scared and want to get back (Marth on the edge isn't as good if you're not M2k) but also be safe, so they use their spaced F-air a lot. You got hit by it. Recognize this and shield. If you shield the F-air you have ALLLLL day to punish with a B-air. You might recognize the situation from this: You F-throw a Marth at like 40% from the edge of the stage. A lot of scrubby Marths will instantly jump with a rising F-air that seems to be very well spaced, but if you just shield it and N-air/B-air out of it, they are 100% dead. Try to avoid getting swatted with them jumping back to the stage with an aerial.
7:49 - Going back to what I said earlier about recognizing when hitstun ends and he wants to cover himself. You got the U-air, you got him in the air, and Marth will OF COURSE try to come down as soon as possible. This is where long term thinking comes into play. You have to think one step ahead and think of the punish you could get if you catch him coming down with an aerial. If you shielded the F-air you'd get another U-throw U-air juicy combo and he'd be in kill %, or maybe he timed well and you could still shine out of shield.
8:07 - Once again the same thing. You popped him up and he is coming down, but he will probably try to cover himself. Now he got cute and used neutral B but it makes no difference if it was neutral B or F-air, you got hit. Because you ran in trying to hit, not respecting him coming down with moves.
Still not seeing lasers being utilized well.
8:30 - This was the most obvious. This situation was actually a no-brainer. He used his double jump, he used his side B, there was a platform there. He has been coming down with aerials the whole set, so 100% guaranteed he will do it again. What do you do? You try to catch him with a full hop N-air. Definitely the wrong idea. Right idea: Run up and just wavedash straight down to stop your momentum right under the platform. He couldn't reach you there and you'd be free to grab/smash/nair/anything him during the landing lag.
9:25 - You used the laser BUT LOL THE RANGE.
9:42 - There you go, you're able to read him coming down with aerials and react accordingly.
Good last stock. You played to your capabilities. Only questionable thing is the N-air at 10:05 because for once he didn't cover himself and you got something good out of it, but I know for a fact that you didn't read that he wouldn't do anything because you have been getting swatted by falling aerials to cover him the whole set. So this time it worked out, but remember that this one time it worked for the 30 other times you got F-aired.
11:05 - Now this is already a bit more advanced and something mid level players still not notice, but those 2 missed techs are very important. You hit the easy techs correctly, that's good, but you have to hit these techs too, these are the hard ones, the high level ones. Try to make a mental note of when you miss a difficult tech and remember that those exist. Later you will learn to tech those.
11:13 - Muuuuuch too late on the reaction. You U-smash as he already hit the edge and you paid for it. A back-air would be a safer punish, easier to hit and also quicker.
12:04 - Oooh that back-air was just not good. And the one after that also wasn't. Try not to throw out bad back-airs like that.
12:06 - Another one of those crucial techs. This is just a Marth trick you should always be aware off. At any time during the chain grab they might back-throw and F-smash you, and you died for it. You NEED that tech.
During this game your laser game is improving, you shoot more safe lasers, however, after 1-2 lasers you just run in again. Lamp never has to approach because he knows he doesn't have to respect the laser damage.
12:27 - You asked about invincibility? You just blew it right here. He just walked up to you and you have been full hopping over him every time he was invincible. Well, he just called you out on it and grabbed you. What you can do when they're invincible is dance around them a bit. It seems unsafe but it really isn't that bad. It's what I do, as they come down I dashdance below them and then pick a direction to run in. Then run back through them a bit and like that just move, maybe grab edge etc. Just be quick a move fast. Definitely don't full jump into them. I want you to just pause at the point where you full jump at him and pause at the peak of the jump. Look at how HORRIBLE your position is. Either he can U-tilt, U-air, grab, anything, and hit you, or you have to use your 2nd jump which would be even worse. You're cornered near the edge so already set up for an edgeguard. All the while you can't come down with an aerial as he is still invincible. Full hopping/double jumping when they are invincible on FD is pretty bad.
12:35 - Good that you got the tech, it's medium difficulty tech, but all the bit more difficult techs you get are in place as you only focus on getting the tech and not inputting a direction. He knows this 100% and just doesn't care and grabs you after the tech.
And yeah what you said, just work on stringing your punishes together, hit the U-throw U-air.
My biggest advice for you to improve is on is to be cognizant of people coming down and covering themselves with aerials, avoiding the aerials and punishing with a grab or aerial.
That got a lot longer than I thought it would be. You got a lot of info here. What I want from you in return is to critique the match vs Shunsuke yourself a bit. Not to my extent, but a start would be pointing out some of your mistakes in greater detailing and saying what could have been done better. Maybe talk about the times you got grabbed, how it happened, how you could avoid it.
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Kaeon
Smash Cadet
You can start dash grabbing left/right DI on upthrow chaingrabs around mid percents (45ish?). It's easier to get sloppy using the dash grabs, so be careful. JC grab is required until then.
CeLL
Smash Lord
is it possible to hit someone with only the second hit of uair, so they can't SDI the first?
zz_halim
Smash Apprentice
YES
I assume you were referring to my chaingrab question?
Either way I've have started to JC grab because there ins't a reason not to, and I have had more success with the chaingrab so thanks.
ERayz
Smash Journeyman
Wow, thats a lot more than I expected already, this gives me a lot of stuff to work on! Thanks a bunch!
I'll try to critique my own match vs Shunsuke as you suggested (sounds like a good idea), but I don't think I'll do it here, as it would be embarrassing for me
Maybe I can PM you ?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
You can do that if you want to, but there's also no embarrassment about posting it here, I'd think, as other people might also value the info or want to help you. It's up to you.
Kaeon
Smash Cadet
Yeah I was, just a bit lazy with the quoting.I assume you were referring to my chaingrab question?
Either way I've have started to JC grab because there ins't a reason not to, and I have had more success with the chaingrab so thanks.
Good to hear JC grab is treating you well.
unknown522
Some guy
Watching you vs PKM:Hey guys, can anybody watch these matches and help me with the questions below? That would be very appreciated
Vs Lampadaires (Marth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtJR3AIfgyk
Vs Shunsuke (Sheik / Falco)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JG3EcTKp4E
1- How do I avoid getting grabbed so often?
2- What do I do when I get grabbed, so I don't take as much damage?
3- What should I do between stocks, I feel very vulnerable when my opponent spawns and is in his invincibility frames...
4- Anything else you notice that I do really bad? (I'm aware that I miss a lot of up-smashes and up-throw --> upair opportunities, my techskill was pretty inconsistent that day)
Thanks!
At the very start of the first match, I don't think there would have been any other option other than d-tilt coming. which lead into a grab immediately. You side-b'd into him twice while he was waiting for you as well, within the first minute. @ 1:40, he grabbed you as you did a falling u-air. I think you just got unlucky there, though ofc if you did a drill, it probably wouldn't have happened. Through the first 2 minutes so far it looks like you made some technical flubs, so you happened to drop a few combo chances or got hit because of them. Maybe just nervous, or playing a bit off for those 2 minutes, idk.
@ 2:20, when you hit him with that weak b-air and he was offstage without his jump. After you grabbed the ledge again and he did his side-b, you could've done a ledge-hop b-air since you were invincible. Since he didn't have his jump too, all you would need to do is edge-hog him, or marth-killer after. @ 2:25, he was already in your space but you tried to waveland behind him and got f-smashed. It was the perfect time to hit him with a b-air instead, since he had already committed to a dash from that close and was in your space.
The rest of the first match you had very solid movement and you were landing some good hits, and punishing him for throwing out moves at a bad time, or being too close to you without a good defense. But you just weren't doing as much damage as he was. A lot of dropped combos, and that kind-of suicide at the end.
At the start of game 2, when he landed the first grab, you just needed to realize that you were way too far out of range to punish him after he did the third part of his blade dance. It did happen a couple times in the first game, but sometimes you are just not spaced well enough, but still try to attack him, then miss and it put you right into his grab range. Same thing at 4:48, though this time he DD -> grabbed you. I personally knew it would happen given where you both were positioned after the did that SH n-air. Sometimes you still have to bait them even in a situation that may look favorable for you, simply because fox has low range. you did bait out a grab @ 4:33, and I think you were going to try and up-smash or something, but you messed up by falling off the stage by accident from doing a wide DD.
@ 5:10, sadly up-throw -> FH b-air when they are at 0% is unsafe (too laggy and you're right in front of him). You will always get hit after, unless you are landing on a platform sometimes. But since his f-air didn't tip though, it wasn't too much of a problem that time.
Also when a marth comes down from above, but close in horizontal distance, for example @ 4:30 and 5:11, you can CC -> grab their f-air, or shield grab.
@ 6:49, when he drifted back off the stage, he was really far from the ledge, and because he threw out his n-air, he would have had no recovery options if you grabbed the ledge. He put himself into a bad position by dropping that far down, while doing a n-air. If he tried to attack again afterwards, you could just b-air with invincibility. Even if not, he was too close to the edge for you to be able to b-air him anyway.
@ 8:58, that was the second time you gave him center stage from when he was on the ledge. He did a ledge roll and both times you tried to grab, covering another option. The most crucial part about that is that you let him get behind you, but you also put yourself at the edge of the stage, while he is closer to the middle. It gives him a chance to trap you there and maybe even get gimps, or a lengthy edgeguard.
@ 9:25, there has been probably 7 or 8 times so far that you have jumped into random f-smashes, or just got caught by them while moving. You need to guard yourself with something.
@ 9:33, Personally I dislike side-b onto the stage. It's slow, unsafe, laggy, easy to react to, and there's so many ways to punish it. I occasionally see some pros do it, but I think it is a terrible option (unless you edge-cancel off a platform, then it's not as bad). I guess if they're a floaty character and in the air and sort of close to the edge, it might work once in a while, but it's so risky and may even cost you a whole stock. I feel that it's one of those tricks that might work on a good player like once per month if you try it lol, but most of the time you'll just get punished really hard. Just put it this way: You're on the ledge, which is a situation where your options are already kind of limited for what you can do, given how far you can go onto the stage. The opponent is already prepared for you to make some kind of action from the ledge (anything, like standing up or ledge-hop, or even just waiting there). In addition to them anticipating that you are going to do something, they also have about 1/3rd of a second to react to your side-b start up (iirc it's 20 frames for fox to start moving. Correct me if I'm wrong), which is almost 2x slower than human reaction time (apparently 1/5th of a second, or 12 frames). Basically they really have to not be paying attention to not at least evade it, or shield, CC, etc. Even then there's a lot of landing lag after the side-b, so they can punish it either during your move, or after it has ended.
Game 3. @ 10:38, I think that when he whiffed the d-tilt, you could have hit him with a SH-drill, or at least forced him to shield if it didn't hit. You were already too far away to fully punish the whiff, but you could have either closed the gap, or tried to bait him to maybe grab. Since you committed to the grab and missed, you were put into a bad position. Fortunately you didn't take a lot of damage, but then you started to drop combos a lot afterwards. On the Second stock you were doing well at finding openings, but then he did more damage with one of his hits, than you did combined with all of your hits (then SD'd). @ 12:00 was the perfect time to u-tilt after that n-air to lengthen your combo. @ 12:05, you were doing some really unsafe b-air approaches hitting high and also weak b-airs on his shield, until he finally grabbed you for one. @ 12:27, was just bad luck. You got grabbed through your b-air lol. @ 12:45, you grabbed too slow after that drill from the ledge sadly, then you guys got into a spot-dodge battle and you got grabbed.
To answer your questions:
1- How do I avoid getting grabbed so often? - It really depends on your situation. Most of the time it comes down to spacing better and not missing your attacks, or over-committing with something that is unsafe.
2- What do I do when I get grabbed, so I don't take as much damage? - Vs Marth specifically, it's usually better to DI to the middle of the stage and take a lot of damage, rather than getting edgeguarded/gimped early. Most of the matches you guys played didn't have a top platform, so it was definitely harder to escape sometimes. Though once your percent is high (like 110%+), getting grabbed should not matter as much, since it is really hard for Marth to get a kill off of them, unless you're near the edge, or they tech chase really well. It's also a good time to use your shield a lot, since getting grabbed holds less of a risk, but it can also be used to bait grabs and maybe test the Marth's patience. If they mis-space something or go for obvious grabs, then you may be able to land a lot of damage from it. Even at high percent though, it's usually best to try and get to the middle of the stage when you get grabbed. Also just be careful of DI traps like f-throw/b-throw, or the odd f-air that may or may not tip. Again, the situations can always vary. It's Melee
3- What should I do between stocks, I feel very vulnerable when my opponent spawns and is in his invincibility frames... - You can do a lot. You can shield attacks, use your full hop from platforms. Shine stall from high up in the air. Use ledge invincibility and ledge WD. Roll way from them. DD past them a lot. etc etc.
4- Anything else you notice that I do really bad? (I'm aware that I miss a lot of up-smashes and up-throw --> upair opportunities, my techskill was pretty inconsistent that day) - The write-up is there. Just practice practice practice.
Maybe I'll write about the other set, but I'm going to go back to watching AGDQ now
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Kalimari
Smash Cadet
Anyone wanna critique my s***y ass fox? Tyvm
Westballz v. Kali
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fO4nGIFtWY
Westballz v. Kali
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fO4nGIFtWY
Diana's Safe Landing
Smash Apprentice
So that westballz match brings up Falco's utilt. Whats the best way to get around this move?
http://i.imgur.com/fYSF839.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8RbsjYI.jpg
It has a pretty scary hitbox. I usually try to time a grab between the utilts but that's pretty risky if you get caught since it can lead to more utilts and then fsmash or shine etc. Theres no hitbox at the very bottom so would a spaced dtilt work?
http://i.imgur.com/fYSF839.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8RbsjYI.jpg
It has a pretty scary hitbox. I usually try to time a grab between the utilts but that's pretty risky if you get caught since it can lead to more utilts and then fsmash or shine etc. Theres no hitbox at the very bottom so would a spaced dtilt work?
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Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I walk up and try d-tilt his leg coming down.