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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

unknown522

Some guy
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Aug 17, 2005
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Toronto, Ontario
Here ERayz. Some stuff vs Shunsuke:

Game 1: At the very start of the set, the first 2 grabs he landed on you were because you barely missed your grabs first. The first grab you managed to land on him, you definitely should’ve done u-air instead of b-air, since he only slightly DI’d behind you. You for sure would’ve been able to land at least 2 more hits after, because you landed on the platform after. The second grab he landed on you @ 0:25, you DI’d his b-throw really badly. It could/should have been an easy edgeguard for him, but he dropped it.

To sum up the first minute of the match, you just missed a lot of attacks, or jumped into his b-air a lot as he was retreating from you. Almost every time you missed, you were close enough that he would hit you with something, or you would just run/WD into him.


@ 1:01, you missed another grab and he grabbed you for it. He was pretty far away from you when you threw out that grab too. He was cornered at the edge. You could have either held your position in center stage, or jumped in with a low n-air or drill and see if he would shield or not. Since he was DDing near the edge, it would be unlikely that he would be able to stop your approach with something.

2:07 – 2:11, there were at least 3 opportunities to go for a drill-shine combo. You were also getting hit by a lot if moves that he was throwing out, and a lot of dash attacks, for example @ 2:25, just shielding even for a little bit could have turned that whole situation around into your favor.

@ 2:27, I tend to point out something if I see the same thing happen a few times. I think that was maybe the fourth or fifth time that you tried to jump off the side platform at him, but jumped directly into a b-air or f-air.

@ 2:35, if you had stayed there in your shield, you could’ve punished his b-air coming down because you got close into his space and his b-air would have been a weak hit on your shield, which means a free grab. Instead though you WD back, then you fell for his DD-grab bait.

@ 3:22, you could have hit him with a u-air after he missed the tech on the platform. You probably would’ve gotten 1 or 2 more hits and a potential edgeguard setup, or maybe a kill if he DI’d to the top platform and if you managed to chain 2 more u-airs.

@ 3:44, again bad DI on the b-throw. If you had done survival DI, you may have had a decent chance to make it back. The higher up you are, the more options you get for recovery. If you DI away from sheik’s b-throw, you limit your options to recover with. If your jump height can’t clear that much above the ledge when you get thrown off, it should be an easy edgeguard for the opponent. Especially against characters with high-ranged attacks.


Game 2: From what I had watched so far, his aerial approaches were really bad. He was doing them so early and not spaced at all. I would have definitely shield-grabbed him @ 4:41, 4:47, 5:07, 5:14, 5:16 (the bair), and more times, but too lazy to timestamp. You can definitely beat his falco by a lot more or a lead just by shield-grabbing a lot and having more consistent punishes when you grab him.


Game 3: The grab you landed at the start of the match, you caught his double-jump with your u-air. Since that happened, you could’ve just kept on doing more u-airs and it would have been really hard for him to avoid them. I’m sure you could’ve landed at least 3 more u-airs after the first one got his jump.

@ 9:29, you landed 2 hits with weak aerials, but then you threw out moves that were not going to hit afterwards. To me it looked like you were still trying to shield pressure even though you had landed the hit on him. Personally around that percent, I like to n-air -> d-tilt especially if they are near the edge of the stage.

@ 9:39, after the u-throw -> reverse b-air that you knocked him off. You took the ledge I guess to cover if he would go to the ledge. It was a good option if he was knocked further away from the stage. Since he was so close, he would more than likely go to the stage, but you also could have jumped up after him with a b-air with little risk. Chances are if you aimed well that you would hit him, or force him to airdodge, since sheik’s aerial mobility is really bad. She can’t really drift away to avoid stuff too well.

@ 9:56 and 10:00, to keep yourself safe on FoD with those platform heights. If your opponent is on the platform, you can do SH aerials to stay under them and keep them pressured, instead of jumping on them. Approaching an opponent that is on a platform from above can be dangerous too. He could’ve punished you too when you did that FH n-air @ 10:00.

@ 10:26, I know it’s hard not to do a shine after you’ve hit a n-air, but since he was airborne you lost your chance at a follow-up. You could still try to put pressure on afterwards though. Something I used to do was if I hit a n-air/b-air at low percent while they were still in the air a little bit. I let them land first before I shine, to try and hit them while they are still in that small landing lag. Since shine comes out in 1 frame and they have those 4 frames of landing lag, you can hit them with the right timing and turn it into a waveshine combo. It’s easier said than done, but it’s an option.

@ 10:37, when you FH over him and he missed his f-air and landed. You had the perfect chance to drill -> shine to start a combo. N-air in that situation could have gotten you punished if he CC’d it, but also the chances were lower for you to get a combo. Also 10:43, you could’ve done a drill instead of n-air too.

@ 10:52, again you were trying to punish something, even though you were way too far away from him. Then he DD and punished you.

@ 11:05, you definitely could’ve reactively punished that missed tech without trying to tech chase. Dash attack -> up-smash may have worked there.

@ 11:16, again bad DI on the b-throw. He didn’t attempt to edgeguard fortunately. After you got the ledge, if you did a drill/n-air instead, you would have hit him. The reverse b-air didn’t hit just because of the lack of range since you were facing the wrong way.

I feel that you got too desperate to try and kill him between 11:22 – 11:29. Sadly he was just too patient when you were throwing out attacks a lot and he hit you every time you threw out an attack, which resulted in him getting a stock. @ 12:01, you tried to shield-grab his auto-canceled f-air and that let him grab you. He also got a significant amount of damage off of that one mistake too, but fortunately dropped the combo. @ 12:18, you could have punished that n-air he whiffed. Either just grabbed him or used a drill-shine


Game 4: @ 13:13, after you hit that first b-air, he was at the perfect percent and position for you to get a lengthy combo with u-tilt. I think you did a second b-air that ended up trading with his n-air. After the trade, you again approached off a platform right into his b-air. That time he was waiting for you for sure. He set up the positioning and everything, but you still jumped right into it.

@ 13:50, there’s another consistent thing that kept happening to you. He would space an aerial on your shield, then you would try to immediately move after he hit it, then he would catch you with a dash attack. It happened quite a few times throughout the set. It’s just one of sheik’s mix-ups. Either they can go for a dash attack, or f-tilt, or grab, or jump again, or wait and see if you make an action. You pretty much just have to react accordingly.


Game 5: It looked like you were playing on tilt and just throwing out moves to try and hit him no matter what. Then you just got hit a lot after most of the moves you threw out. You also weren’t able to get any follow-ups because you using n-air too much and way too close to him too. You just needed to throw in some more grabs, drills, u-tilts, etc.



Final notes:


- Grab a lot more
- Try to shield sometimes and/or use other defensive options
- Use U-tilt
- Less N-air
- Use drill more, and try to work on getting drill-shine/waveshine combos
- Pay attention to whether your aerials hit, so that you don’t use a shine and whiff after a n-air or something
- Use reverse b-air at better times
- Remember sheik has bad aerial mobility and use it to your advantage. Get her above you

I'm sure you can take him next time
 

ERayz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
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Lachute, QC
Thanks there Unknown! That's some very solid advice !

I'll make sure to remember all that stuff the next time I play, until it becomes natural.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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If you grab puff at 69% on dreamland, upthrow upair will kill. I think it's 42 on yoshi's before the throw.

Just to be safe I'll say I might be wrong within a 1 damage margin of error.

The best way to practice tech chasing nowadays is by getting the 20xx hack pack. Just search for it.

When fighting sheik you should generally SH nair out of upthrow until you can upair/bair her
 

Heero Yuy

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I'm having trouble with Peach, particularly approaching her from the air. When playing my friend today, sweetspotted Bair always led to a free Dsmash for her. I may be answering my own question but...shine?
 
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zz_halim

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 25, 2014
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Krefeld, Germany
I'm having trouble with Peach, particularly approaching her from the air. When playing my friend today, sweetspotted Bair always led to a free Dsmash for her. I may be answering my own question but...shine?
I guess when she is still at cc % you have to either space so that the shine after the bair Hits. Also your bair should be late. Or you can buffer a roll with cstick, which resets the situation. Punishing the dsmash is difficult though but it should work with a max spaced bair and then dashdance. Or don't bair at low % in the first place.
 
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Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
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It depends. In 99% of the players and cases it isn't, because they have no idea WHY it's good and just think more hits on shield is good.
A good example is doubleshinegrab. You cover them rolling away from your grab after shine 1 with shine 2. You still don't get the huge juicy followup because you're in the grab animation but it's not that bad.
A bad example is someone who isn't 95% proficient in doing double shine and messing up their 2nd shine, and they have to jump out with their double jump, get hit in the air without jump and die for it. For example....
 

victinivcreate1

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How should I play neutral vs Marth? One of my good friends (one of th e best players in his state) keeps trashing me with him and I feel like I get grabbed and then bam 40-50% combo and potential edgeguard scenario.

When I win neutral its not bad at all but I'm not winning it consistently enough. It seems like he can just go ham with the grabs and when I dash dance he dash attacks me.

And how should I DI up tilt?
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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It's too complicated an answer to give a really good so I'll just address your immediate concerns:

If you're dash dancing and he grabs you out of approaches, play the baiting game at a range further back BEFORE moving close enough to the new baiting range (where you're grabbable, but can also potentially hit him).

If you play further back and get dash attacked, be more willing to full jump at that range, as marth has to commit really hard to punish you for it (but if you jump over his approach, you can punish him really hard). Also, if you're more willing to space at the edge of his dash attack it goes from the first frame hitting frame 12 to the last frame which hits like frame 15 iirc. This might not sound like much, but it's honestly the difference between you being able to react to it or not. Playing at the edge of that range will give you a better ability to react.



Pressure game:

Shine grab beats everything except the following options: Immediate Jumps out of shield, Buffer Roll, Buffer spotdodge, fox shine out of shield, falco shine out of shield, fast/invincible up-b options that various characters have.

At a basic level, you can design your pressure around forcing them to choose these options or else they'll get grabbed (and fox has one of the best grabs in the game). Once you force them to choose among these options, you can begin baiting them out with fox's other pressure options. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's a decent starting point.
 

Jim Morrison

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How should I play neutral vs Marth? One of my good friends (one of th e best players in his state) keeps trashing me with him and I feel like I get grabbed and then bam 40-50% combo and potential edgeguard scenario.

When I win neutral its not bad at all but I'm not winning it consistently enough. It seems like he can just go ham with the grabs and when I dash dance he dash attacks me.
This question cannot be answered without you providing video material for us to actually see how you play it and what's going wrong.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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When I play Fox I never use Lasers but when I play floaty characters like Puff or Peach I don't usually use them so how would I force myself to use Lasers?
 

victinivcreate1

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When I play Fox I never use Lasers but when I play floaty characters like Puff or Peach I don't usually use them so how would I force myself to use Lasers?
I have a tip. Use your vocal cords and tell yourself to shoot when you're at a range where neither you or the floaty can rush in for a hit confirm. Thats what I did and it kinda became ingrained in my play.
 

SamSun

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Why doesn't anyone ever ledge hop back air > regrab ledge? other than it being hard?
 

Jim Morrison

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Probably it being hard. If you take a look at the position you're in after missing it... Like goddamn there's no faster way to throw away a stock. It's probably because people haven't practiced it that it's never used.

Other than that, it really forces you to B-air at one specific height. If you just land with auto-cancel on stage you can continue the edgeguard instantly. If you want to regrab the edge after missing a bair, its probably better to just hold the edge, since that's where they would reach at max.
 

T0RN

I'm Torn
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Tips for winning in nuetral/defense? I rarely find myself going in on a chase for a while. I rarely get long combos, and when they're over, I get combo'd like crazy.... help?
 

SSBMLahti

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
1,252
Tips for winning in nuetral/defense? I rarely find myself going in on a chase for a while. I rarely get long combos, and when they're over, I get combo'd like crazy.... help?
I feel you man :(
 
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unknown522

Some guy
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Aug 17, 2005
Messages
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Location
Toronto, Ontario
Around a half-year ago, I did a write-up for one of the many people that asked for Sheik advice. Gonna copy-paste it here:

Question: Hey Ryan, I'm trying to figure out the fox-sheik match up with fox. The main problem I seem to have is figuring out what I should be doing in the neutral game and what openings I need to be looking for. Whenever I'm trying to dd outside of her range, she throws needles and then I get grabbed. Whenever I try to approach I always seem to eat a punish (should I even be approaching). What should I be doing? Are there any good videos I should be watching? Also I was wondering what I should be doing to recover and if there were some tricks I could use to get out of tech chases. Thanks for your time.

Also, do you have a combo video?

I ask because I'm working on trying to get follow-ups on my hits.


Response: The neutral game is so open-ended, but commonly you want to play outside of their longest attacks. There are many positions that I think fox should be trying to find depending on where the sheik is at the time:

- outside the range of their dash attack/dash grab on the ground

- outside the range of their f-tilt on the ground

- far enough that you are safe to laser without getting hit assuming you are on the same plain of height as them (so probably half of the stage away on most stages)

- on a platform when they are on the ground

- underneath them if they try to move around on the platforms

It's up to you to find a way of getting in those positions and landing the first hit. Of course you can force the positions to happen by doing things like Crouch-cancelling, moving into a position that they think is favorable and then moving out of the way, moving in and out of your shield, or even by whiffing moves (on purpose, or by accident), etc. Some familiar options off the top of my head are:

- drill when they are grounded and they are probably not going to attack to stuff it. You can cover if they try to CC, shield, or move depending on where you both are. Over-shooting drill to cover if they move away.

- running shine if they don't commit to something, or if they are visibly dashing away from you, or if you need a fast punish because they threw out a move early.

- grab when you see a shield, when you're close enough

- n-air when they are airborne, but are close to the ground, or if they short-hop and you're close enough to sneak under

- u-tilt when they're coming from above

- jump over their lunge attacks (dash attack, or some sort of dash grab)

- close space if they are charging needles, or shoot lasers if you're fully across the stage

Something that I do a lot is try to make the opponent back down to the edge. A lot of people try to fish for gimps, so I turn it around against them by limiting their movement options (the option to move back), also by abusing people's lack of knowledge around the edge. Commonly the first thing people go for is a grab when they're near the edge. If not, then they're usually trying not to make the grab look obvious and then they will probably opt for 1 or 2 aerials first, or spot-dodges, before doing the grab.


Running into the opponent's moves is something that commonly happens to people, especially vs long-ranged characters. Usually using your movement, and/or moving to a different plain of height are common ways to force your way in vs such characters. Also anticipating what option they are going to take based on the current situation and position that both of you are in. A small example I guess:

Say you want to throw out a drill from the ground at sheik. You can ask yourself:

- will they f-tilt to try to stuff it?

- will they do an aerial?

- will they dash away?

- will they wavedash back?

- will they shield?

- will they jump out of the way?

- will they run under me?

- should I throw it out now?

- should I wait a bit?

- should I do something else?

- etc

There are good actions and bad actions in a lot of scenarios. It depends on what you can react to, what you can bait, and if you can anticipate what they may or may not do. Also just simply reacting to if they do something dumb or just sub-optimal while you're in a position to take advantage of it.


Playing with percent is important naturally as it can make different situations become better and different options to become the optimal choice. For example, you usually don't want to n-air a grounded sheik below 65% since they can CC it (some exceptions), but when they are above the CC percent, n-air becomes a lot better since you can set up edgeguards and potential combos.


Sheik throwing needles. I assume you mean getting hit by airborne needles. If you think it's going to happen and you really can't just be out of the way of them, then try to shield them and then roll away or something. If you mean grounded needles, then I don't know how you're possibly getting grabbed. Grounded needles are unsafe, though they become a little safer if you get hit by a full set of them. If you're close enough to get grabbed after they throw grounded needles, you should be grabbing them first, since it's so laggy. You can also just shield them since there is a visual cue of if they might throw them. If they don't throw them, then just wavedash out of your shield and continue playing. Another alternative is simply just jumping over them, or jumping onto a platform and then continue moving towards them.


Recovery vs sheik. You should never be able to recover vs her. If you do, they are doing something wrong. Still since fox does have a variable recovery, it is somewhat hard to react to everything possible. One major rule of thumb is to avoid having to firefox from below ledge height. One exception is if they are trying to jump out offstage after you to cover you starting your recovery from high. You can do a lot to try and recover. Some examples:

- Firefox high

- Firefox straight at them

- Firefox diagonally down to grab the edge

- Firefox down into the stage, since it has low lag

- Illusion deep into the stage and maybe take a hit

- Illusion -> edge-cancel off a platform

- Illusion shortens on the stage

- Illusion shortens to grab the ledge

- Firefox/illusion straight to the ledge

- Firefox/illusion to the top platform to limit their damage maybe

- Fifefox/illusion at their head to attack around their attacks

- Illusion their feet for possible shield stab

If you have to recover from low and they are on the stage, or on the ledge, then just try your best to force a wall-tech, or angle well enough while anticipating what they are going to do to try to cover your recovery options (you have to read them pretty hard and that is assuming that they are not just doing something simple to cover everything in that position).

Whenever you make it to the ledge, then usually the safest option is to do a ledge wavedash and then continue from there. Since you can use some of the invincibility that you get from grabbing the ledge, then you can attack or retreat when you get on the stage. Sometimes if they are too close to the edge, you can just do a ledge hop aerial and turn around the situation.


Escaping tech chases. You just have to test their reaction time and their ability to react to the scenario presented to them with the right option, if they are strictly trying to react to you techs. If they do some sort of guess, then that is your chance to escape. A lot of sheiks get impatient and will try to up-smash or something, anticipating that you will tech in place, or not tech at some point. A common way to try to escape is to not tech and then SDI up if they try to jab reset you. Another thing I commonly do is DI slightly behind them and then tech in place. Sometimes the ambiguity of it will make it look like I'm going to land in front of them and then they grab the wrong way. You can also keep tech rolling until you are close to the edge and then DI enough to make yourself edge-cancel and grab the ledge. If you can't make that work, then tech towards the edge as far as possible and see if they decide to f-throw you off, then try to recover from the gimp attempt. Sheik's f-throw is laggier than her b-throw, so they truly have to guess on how you're going to recover, so you have a decent chance of recovering. Even if you do get hit, then if your percent is low they just may not be able to kill you. Outside of all that, then generally I just DI in whichever direction and tech in that direction too. Some people seem to miss that when I maximize the distance between us, since a lot of people try to cover the tech in place because it's the hardest to cover.


For videos:

Jman vs Amsah - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUu2uvCVtn4

M2K vs Leffen - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ty9RgrjXsk

Me vs M2K - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avhi3hcQDFU

There's lots more you can look up. Americans, euopeans, etc


Combo vid: https://www.youtube.com/user/unknown522
 

adam87

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
7
I'm tired of seeing so many threads asking questions that have been answered over and over again, and are obvious to the average smasher. I figure this will stop at least some of those from popping up.


Post asking anything you want about Fox that you're not sure about or just don't know. I will answer your question within the day, and if anyone else wants to answer before I can, go for it, and false information given will be corrected.

Also it wouldn't hurt to check this thread, or others before asking but, it really won't matter much.

Ask away.
My question is about waveshining. I can wavedash immediately out of shine but it does not hit anyone after the wave dash it has come to my attention that I should be close enough to hit them when I first shine then follow into shine cancel with a jump to a wavedash then repeat. Is this correct? I'm sorry I'm sure you've had plenty of questions about it before. I'm just really wanting to advance my skills and make sure I do it perfectly.
 

zz_halim

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
161
Location
Krefeld, Germany
My question is about waveshining. I can wavedash immediately out of shine but it does not hit anyone after the wave dash it has come to my attention that I should be close enough to hit them when I first shine then follow into shine cancel with a jump to a wavedash then repeat. Is this correct? I'm sorry I'm sure you've had plenty of questions about it before. I'm just really wanting to advance my skills and make sure I do it perfectly.
you have to do (nearly) perfect waveshines (earliest jump after hitlag/earliest airdoge/shallowest angle). also running waveshine is a lot easier to follow up on since you already have forward momentum
 

adam87

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
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So I'm confused. Do they need to be hit with the first shine? And then wavedash shine wavedash shine. Or when I wavedash out of shine does it carry the attack?
 

adam87

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
7
Thank you so very much. That's all I needed to know. I learned about how to do it Saturday when I was in a tournament and I guess I had midunderstood. Cuz I had achieved successfully waveshining in nearly perfect frame (not always but I did accomplish it a good few times) but it didn't do anything lol my bad. But now I know so thank you.
 

T0RN

I'm Torn
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Dec 9, 2014
Messages
219
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Charlotte, NC
My question is about waveshining. I can wavedash immediately out of shine but it does not hit anyone after the wave dash it has come to my attention that I should be close enough to hit them when I first shine then follow into shine cancel with a jump to a wavedash then repeat. Is this correct? I'm sorry I'm sure you've had plenty of questions about it before. I'm just really wanting to advance my skills and make sure I do it perfectly.
Listen to what they have to say about, but you also may need to walk out of the wavedash for a short distance>shine>wavedash repeat. You can shine at any time during your walk animation, so shine while walking. But make sure you don't dash/run out of wavedash instead of walking, because you can't shine at the beginning of that animation... Hope that makes sense lol.
 

Shamoz

Smash Cadet
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Mar 5, 2014
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West Lafayette, Indiana
I'm just starting to get into a lot of the Fox tech

When I shuffle or dair into waveshine, I've been holding down on the control stick before my landing. Is it better that way? I used to release the control stick before landing which made timing easier sometimes, but at other times i just ended up shooting a random laser instead.

Also, when I shine into nair, do I fast fall? When is a good time to use shine-nair? What else can I do for shield pressure?
 

Diana's Safe Landing

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Feb 2, 2014
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Any good (advanced) tech skill drills/practices?
I think the best way to practice "tech skill" with any character is to notice what you're messing up on in real games and then finding a way to practice that on your own. For example I have a new controller and my chain grabs and pivots have been off recently so I'm using the 20xx hack pack to practice those.

You can also practice new things that you want to start implementing in real games. In my case I want to use more shield drops and spaced shield pressure so i'm also practicing those with 20xx.
 
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T0RN

I'm Torn
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I think the best way to practice "tech skill" with any character is to notice what you're messing up on in real games and then finding a way to practice that on your own. For example I have a new controller and my chain grabs and pivots have been off recently so I'm using the 20xx hack pack to practice those.

You can also practice new things that you want to start implementing in real games. In my case I want to use more shield drops and spaced shield pressure so i'm also practicing those with 20xx.
Alright thanks
 

Youngling

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
332
Any advice? http://www.twitch.tv/socostreams/b/612006872?t=241m20s

specifically on how to edgeguard marth because i ****ing suck at it


would appreciate any help... thanks

some parts are a bit awkward because i recently switched to using only L for everything so that I can claw upsmash. still suck at using L and claw upsmashing but im gettin there lol
 
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zChaos

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
12
I can waveshine and multishine. I just need to know how to put it into a combo or shield pressure? Anybody know some good shield pressure? Or pressure in general?
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
I can waveshine and multishine. I just need to know how to put it into a combo or shield pressure? Anybody know some good shield pressure? Or pressure in general?
I wouldn't use Multishines or Waveshines for shield pressure. If you do waveshine they can just roll or grab during the wavedash. If you multishine if you mess up its a free punish.
 
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