Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

sadistic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
31
Does anyone know if there is a frame difference when you're going for a running shine between jump canceling or crouch canceling the dash momentum? The reason I ask is because I think using jump canceled shines would help me be more consistent with grounded shine OoS's and staying grounded with multishines.
If you're doing a running shine there is no frame difference, and given how much easier the inputs are, you really should not be doing a jump canceled shine in this situation.

If you're doing a shine from a dash, you MUST jump cancel it, because you can't crouch cancel > move from a dash.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,217
Location
20XX/Midwest
3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
NNID
Snake_Midwest
What are good stages for the Samus MU and whats a good way to stop her missiles because I have a little trouble dealing with them on Pokemon Stadium?
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
I've been waveshining a CPU Peach and I'm curious, does shine turn around dair to change direction work?
Yes. If you're waveshining Peach and she SDIs behind you, it's possible to turn around in your shine > wavedash towards her > dair and continue comboing. Turning around in your shine takes up time though. I advise you just waveshine backwards once into an utilt / grab / usmash and end the combo there, instead of going for the greedy dair.


What's the proper way to cover falco's invincible double laser from the ledge?
3 options in order of usefulness:

a) get close to the edge, crouch cancel the 1st laser and shine in between. Instant kill at any %. Only do this if you're sure he'll LHDL, otherwise you get daired in the face

b) get close to the edge, shield, block first laser and shield grab in between. Choose the throw you think will work best. This is actually universal, every character in the game can shield grab in between Falco's lasers

c) On every level except FD, hop on a side platform with your back turned. Be patient and wait for the LHDL, drop through the platform and bair him off the stage. Don't forget to shinespike his upB.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,217
Location
20XX/Midwest
3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
NNID
Snake_Midwest
Yes. If you're waveshining Peach and she SDIs behind you, it's possible to turn around in your shine > wavedash towards her > dair and continue comboing. Turning around in your shine takes up time though. I advise you just waveshine backwards once into an utilt / grab / usmash and end the combo there, instead of going for the greedy dair.




3 options in order of usefulness:

a) get close to the edge, crouch cancel the 1st laser and shine in between. Instant kill at any %. Only do this if you're sure he'll LHDL, otherwise you get daired in the face

b) get close to the edge, shield, block first laser and shield grab in between. Choose the throw you think will work best. This is actually universal, every character in the game can shield grab in between Falco's lasers

c) On every level except FD, hop on a side platform with your back turned. Be patient and wait for the LHDL, drop through the platform and bair him off the stage. Don't forget to shinespike his upB.
True but I'm not that Greedy Tbh
 

DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
a) get close to the edge, crouch cancel the 1st laser and shine in between. Instant kill at any %. Only do this if you're sure he'll LHDL, otherwise you get daired in the face
Would it even be necessary to crouch cancel since lasers has so little hitstun and shine is instant?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Would it even be necessary to crouch cancel since lasers has so little hitstun and shine is instant?
It's not necessary, but it makes the window to hit the shine easier. I think shielding the first one and shining OoS might actually be the best input window, but I'm not sure. M2K shield grabs LHDL with such disgusting consistency that you should really be able to do any method.
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
1,189
I am a new Fox main and I feel I got a good handle on his match ups, all except the IC'ers one. Any one got some general advice vs that character, as one of the best players in my region uses that character.
 

Soupeschleg

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
228
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
I am a new Fox main and I feel I got a good handle on his match ups, all except the IC'ers one. Any one got some general advice vs that character, as one of the best players in my region uses that character.
Just gotta lame it out, from my experience. Platforms, lasers, lots of drillshine. Just get in and get out so you don't get grabbed. See the fun side of it... you get to be the clever, illusive fox
 

T r a n

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Messages
42
Location
Holland, MI
Can Fox get any guaranteed follow ups on CF with up throw on 0% assuming full left/right DI before he lands?
If not what percent does dash>nair, dash>usmash, chain grab etc start working?
I have the same question and would really like the answer. Other than jab, I haven't seen anyone get any follow up on falcon around 0%. I've just been relying on doing aerials and shines (and not grabbing) until around 40% and then I start uthrow to nair, utilt, or up smash.
 

Nickaragua7

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
3
I've been playing for about 6 months and have down the basics of fox decently but I play against a decent falcon when I practice and he always bodies me. He wins the neutral game mostly and I just feel I can't pressure him like I can others. Suggestions please? I asked wesballz the other day and he said get used to shine OOS but honestly that only gets him off me temporarily and then the pressure is right back on me.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Would it even be necessary to crouch cancel since lasers has so little hitstun and shine is instant?
The crouch doesn't matter much, but decreasing the hitstun does widen the gap between the LHDL. This could matter if you input the first shine incorrectly as the CC might be what allows you a 2nd attempt. You can also crouch the first laser if he shoots it too high which makes everything even easier. Shine OOS is unnecessary here because it requires you to jump which ultimately amounts to a complete waste of frames. It adds difficulty in execution / timing for no logical reason and doesn't effectively change the situation enough to warrant it's use. Crouching also presents the expectation that you will shine. It's a visual conditioning tool. If you've punished their LHDL enough your opponent might see your crouch (or your general presence close to the edge) as a sign that you will do it again. If they try to attack you instead of lasering then you have the upper hand. This time you dashdance away and punish the ledgehop aerial with grab / usmash / drillshine or nairshine and kill them.


At 0% against C. Falcon I treat it as a 50/50. If they d.i. the uthrow left / right I run at them and fullhop uair. If they jump (they do 95% of the time) the uair hits + their DJ is gone and you basically can kill them off that momentum in most cases. If the combo itself doesn't kill, then the ensuing techchase / edge-guards and uthrow nairs will. Once you do that a few times uthrow nair can actually work at 0% because you've effectively communicated the cost of jumping out.

Other than that, you only get good follows above 35ish% when he goes left / right. If he doesn't d.i. you get whatever the hell you want. That usually means utilt to stuff. At higher percents I would refrain from uair. He doesn't die off the top very well and he has one of the weakest recoveries. Opt for bairs to send him far offstage and kill him with the lame fsmash trap or whatever else your heart desires.
 
Last edited:

S.D

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
4,062
Location
Sleeping in a submarine
The crouch doesn't matter much, but decreasing the hitstun does widen the gap between the LHDL. This could matter if you input the first shine incorrectly as the CC might be what allows you a 2nd attempt. You can also crouch the first laser if he shoots it too high which makes everything even easier. Shine OOS is unnecessary here because it requires you to jump which ultimately amounts to a complete waste of frames. It adds difficulty in execution / timing for no logical reason and doesn't effectively change the situation enough to warrant it's use. Crouching also presents the expectation that you will shine. It's a visual conditioning tool. If you've punished their LHDL enough your opponent might see your crouch (or your general presence close to the edge) as a sign that you will do it again. If they try to attack you instead of lasering then you have the upper hand. This time you dashdance away and punish the ledgehop aerial with grab / usmash / drillshine or nairshine and kill them.


At 0% against C. Falcon I treat it as a 50/50. If they d.i. the uthrow left / right I run at them and fullhop uair. If they jump (they do 95% of the time) the uair hits + their DJ is gone and you basically can kill them off that momentum in most cases. If the combo itself doesn't kill, then the ensuing techchase / edge-guards and uthrow nairs will. Once you do that a few times uthrow nair can actually work at 0% because you've effectively communicated the cost of jumping out.

Other than that, you only get good follows above 20ish% when he goes left / right. If he doesn't d.i. you get whatever the hell you want. That usually means utilt to stuff. At higher percents I would refrain from uair. He doesn't die off the top very well and he has one of the weakest recoveries. Opt for bairs to send him far offstage and kill him with the lame fsmash trap or whatever else your heart desires.
TY Raynex.

Interesting note on the full hop, funnily enough I rarely run into Falcons that jump out at all, they mainly just tech roll. As such my standard is to tech chase u throws until that 15-20% mark when I start to go for the nair.

As a follow up question, how tight is the timing on the u throw > nair DI chase? I have a bit of trouble getting the timing for the dash just right at lower % probably due to Falcon's weight, in fact the reason I asked the question originally was because I thought the nair was either very hard or near impossible to execute at 0 (I play PAL btw so I don't know if there are any subtle differences that need to be accounted for). Is there a cue that you use to identify the earliest possible dash or any timing tips you could offer?

EDIT: Still new to 20xx pack but I believe there is a wait animation colour coding I should be using for this.
 
Last edited:

CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,025
Location
Washington
Yes u throw u tilt is a thing with no DI, talking about when Falcon hits perfect DI left or right, unless you're walking out/wavedashing out into u tilt?
I don't know about at 0, but at low percents in general I'll often try to wavedash utilt. Not sure if I should though lol. I've chained many utilts in a row, wavedashing after seeing his DI lol. Not sure if that really works, of if my opponent just didn't know how to prevent it.
 

S.D

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
4,062
Location
Sleeping in a submarine
I don't know about at 0, but at low percents in general I'll often try to wavedash utilt. Not sure if I should though lol. I've chained many utilts in a row, wavedashing after seeing his DI lol. Not sure if that really works, of if my opponent just didn't know how to prevent it.
Are you landing this before they hit the ground (ie missed tech) or on partial DI?
Or are you able to hit this with a full DI > utilt?
I'll be doing some 20xx testing thisafternoon on this stuff hopefully.
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,025
Location
Washington
Are you landing this before they hit the ground (ie missed tech) or on partial DI?
Or are you able to hit this with a full DI > utilt?
I'll be doing some 20xx testing thisafternoon on this stuff hopefully.
Before they land, I just follow the DI with a wavedash. Still not sure it actually works or if the Falcons I play just don't know that it doesn't lol. Though my guess is that doing a true pivot utilt would on full DI, though if I understand correctly pivot utilts are not realistically feasible with default controls (and you can't change them in Melee, obviously)
 

KevJames

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
88
Location
NorCal
Was wondering if people prefer to use C-stick or A+analog for fast short hop aerials out of shine? I imagine that using A for aerials would be easier/fastest since its closest to Y/B, but I know a lot of people prefer using the C-stick for better aerial control.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
Location
Corneria, Lylat System
Mango uses A button for everything. PP uses the cstick afaik. M2k uses the cstick. Armada uses A. It's preference. I use the cstick for all my general aerials, but use A during shield pressure out of shine because of it's proximity.
 
Last edited:

King Mob

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
39
Location
Des Plaines, IL
Okay, so, I've been really into camping peach on top platforms when I really need to take stocks. It's been working well for me, but I'm drawing blanks on possible mixups there there due to the lack of space. Does anyone have tactics they like to pull out when they feel like they're getting stale in these situations?
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,217
Location
20XX/Midwest
3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
NNID
Snake_Midwest
When you Multishine Grab vs. a Fox or Falco does the Shines need to be Frame Perfect or no? (I really only use triple or double shine grab though)
 
Last edited:

Gunslinger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
103
Location
Tallahassee, Florida
What would be the best secondary to counter Marth and Peach on FD? My friend suggested Captain Falcon.
Falcon would work, but honestly I think it's just better to stick to your guns, literally. As much as a "hard counter" FD is for Marth and Peach v Fox, it's not unwinnable. If you laser camp them and play real safe/gay, they're gonna get real desperate for that grab, and it's super telgraphed. Falco is another idea, Mango always goes Falco against M2K on FD. Besides, you really only need to worry about this in 3/5 sets, and it's only 1 game for them. You still have PS for both, YS for Peach, and DL for Marth. People who main Fox shouldn't even worry about secondaries tbh. Just because Charizard loses to Blastoise doesn't mean Charizard can't win and that you should've just picked Bulbasaur from the beginning, he can evolve into Mega Charizard Y and solerbeam that *****. You just gotta mega evolve.
 

The Hoff

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Milford, Ohio
Hello this is a general smash question but also ties into my fox.

So I'm a pretty new player, I got into competitive smash about 4 months ago. I'm in high school and was introduced by one of my engineering friends. So what happened was about 12 of us took on competetive smash. Then I've pretty much pulled ahead and I win every tourney, we go to locals but don't fare very well at all, usually I'm the only one who gets out of pools and I make it 2-3 rounds into it and get eliminated, never getting better than 16th at a 50 man tourney.


But i felt it was because I was limited by my character, sheik. Then I swapped to fox about 6 days ago and I won my high school tourney again for about the 7th time in a row and I just don't feel like I get any practice out of them.

Ever since I picked up fox I'm playing better than I was before and I still can't do much techs kill outside of wavedashing.

I can't figure out how to do the short hop under pressure. And even without pressure I can't do them 5/10 times. I cant figure out if I just have motor skills for it or if I just am not practice right.

TLDR newcomer with no good practice partners, should I give up smash? If not how can I learn how to short hop effectively with fox? And also effectively waveshine?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,217
Location
20XX/Midwest
3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
NNID
Snake_Midwest
Hello this is a general smash question but also ties into my fox.

So I'm a pretty new player, I got into competitive smash about 4 months ago. I'm in high school and was introduced by one of my engineering friends. So what happened was about 12 of us took on competetive smash. Then I've pretty much pulled ahead and I win every tourney, we go to locals but don't fare very well at all, usually I'm the only one who gets out of pools and I make it 2-3 rounds into it and get eliminated, never getting better than 16th at a 50 man tourney.


But i felt it was because I was limited by my character, sheik. Then I swapped to fox about 6 days ago and I won my high school tourney again for about the 7th time in a row and I just don't feel like I get any practice out of them.

Ever since I picked up fox I'm playing better than I was before and I still can't do much techs kill outside of wavedashing.

I can't figure out how to do the short hop under pressure. And even without pressure I can't do them 5/10 times. I cant figure out if I just have motor skills for it or if I just am not practice right.

TLDR newcomer with no good practice partners, should I give up smash? If not how can I learn how to short hop effectively with fox? And also effectively waveshine?
The 20XX Hack Pack will help you alot tech skill wise
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,025
Location
Washington
I have 20xx hack pack, I just don't know how to go about doing a short hop

Or if there are some special settings in the 20xx that help with this?
To short hop, you just have to release the jump button very quickly. To be specific, before your character is in the air. Both Fox and Sheik are in the air on the fourth frame after pressing the jump button.
 

The Hoff

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Milford, Ohio
So you're basically saying you don't know how to short hop?
To short hop, you just have to release the jump button very quickly. To be specific, before your character is in the air. Both Fox and Sheik are in the air on the fourth frame after pressing the jump button.
Yes and although I haven't practiced it yet I can't do it yet really which scares me.

I'm able to do falco easily, and marth I had to practice but I can now do it with relative eas as long as i think about it (I can do like 7/10 times), but I can't do fox's but like 2/10 times.

Any tips for practicing it or should I just simply practice it?

Edit: at last nights tournament I think I did one single short hop upair put of the 5-6 games I played
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,217
Location
20XX/Midwest
3DS FC
1993-8618-5171
NNID
Snake_Midwest
Yes and although I haven't practiced it yet I can't do it yet really which scares me.

I'm able to do falco easily, and marth I had to practice but I can now do it with relative eas as long as i think about it (I can do like 7/10 times), but I can't do fox's but like 2/10 times.

Any tips for practicing it or should I just simply practice it?

Edit: at last nights tournament I think I did one single short hop upair put of the 5-6 games I played
Just go in training mode or use the 20XX Hack Pack and practice it, Falco's Jumpsquat is slow than Fox btw
 
Top Bottom