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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

GreenBread

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
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I'm new to fox, and I have been having troubles against a local link. Any tips of the matchup? It seems difficult to approach and get a true combo started
 

Spluvin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
30
I've been practicing a lot of fox tech skill this month and have made a lot of progress. I'm however not getting any better at ledgedashing. I would estimate that i've a 35 % success ratio. The way I do it is to tilt to the side and press y almost simultaneously and then tilt to the other side to waveland on stage. How do you guys do It, what are your success ratios and how long did it take to get good at the ledgedash?
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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I've been practicing a lot of fox tech skill this month and have made a lot of progress. I'm however not getting any better at ledgedashing. I would estimate that i've a 35 % success ratio. The way I do it is to tilt to the side and press y almost simultaneously and then tilt to the other side to waveland on stage. How do you guys do It, what are your success ratios and how long did it take to get good at the ledgedash?
Keep Practicing it until you almost consistent, Get the 20XX Hack Pack if needed.
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
I've been practicing a lot of fox tech skill this month and have made a lot of progress. I'm however not getting any better at ledgedashing. I would estimate that i've a 35 % success ratio. The way I do it is to tilt to the side and press y almost simultaneously and then tilt to the other side to waveland on stage. How do you guys do It, what are your success ratios and how long did it take to get good at the ledgedash?
The inputs you described are exactly correct. Basically you should think of it as pressing away/down and then instantly doing a wavedash forward. As far as practicing, I used the ledge in the middle of hyrule temple when I first learned to ledgedash because it makes it quicker to try again after you mess up.

Success rate varies a lot. Sometimes days I can get over 95%, other times it's more like 70% or less. This is pretty much to be expected. I don't think there is anybody who ledgedashes as consistently as they'd like to. I think it helps a lot to study the frame data a bit and become familiar with the different ways a ledgedash can fail, since then you can usually figure out what part of the input you messed up on whenever you miss it and then try to focus on that aspect the next time.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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About Wall Teching do you hold L the 20 Frames when you're near the Wall or during the Side B? (Only Side B)
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,025
Location
Washington
Finally have recorded video of me playing, so I came to ask for advice. I know what to work on as far as tech skill goes (and I have a lot lol, though this was the first time I was in any sort of tournament, even though it's just netplay, and my tech skill was a bit worse than it is normally), but other than that I have no idea other than just working on spacing (the fsmashes in game 3 were kind of embarrassing lol).

http://www.twitch.tv/veggies101/b/630965827?t=51m27s

I play a different opponent starting at 2:52:20.

And I know gb started toying with me a bit lol.

Btw I don't throw out smashes in neutral, or roll OoS that much. Sometimes I will fsmash instead of dash attacking or usmash instead of uairing, or roll instead of bair or dair OoS (all of these because I input things too early a lot).
 
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Doser

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Lincoln Nebraska
What is the optimal DI for Sheik's dash attack?

I searched this thread and a few others but I couldn't find a post where it was explained.
 

JmanJ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
48
Location
Indianapolis, IN
What are the best ways to punish Falco's spot dodge when you know he's going to do it? I'm sick of getting spot dodge shined, haha. I see dair and falling uair as options, but is one more guaranteed to cover the intagibility frames of the spot dodge? Thanks guys.
 

JmanJ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
48
Location
Indianapolis, IN
What is the optimal DI for Sheik's dash attack?

I searched this thread and a few others but I couldn't find a post where it was explained.
Always DI away on dash attack. Just based on experience though, there appears to be a hitbox on the top part of Sheik during dash attack that really limits your DI options. So if you're just barely above the ground, you risk getting hit by this which leads to a guaranteed fair. Anyone can correct me on this if they know actual hitbox data.
 

Doser

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Lincoln Nebraska
What are the best ways to punish Falco's spot dodge when you know he's going to do it? I'm sick of getting spot dodge shined, haha. I see dair and falling uair as options, but is one more guaranteed to cover the intagibility frames of the spot dodge? Thanks guys.
A well spaced JC grab should out range Falco's shine and also lead to a good amount of punish options. You will also be committing a lot less, so if you grab too early you have a chance to back out.
 
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Diana's Safe Landing

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
186
Location
Corvallis, OR
What are some ways to space with Fox?
How should I be edge guarding, and what moves should I be using?
Fox's dash dance is incredible at taking space especially when used with SH nair wisely. Shine and bair edgeguard everyone in the game although there are niche situations where moves like dair can be better.
 

AnEnemyMongoose

Smash Cadet
Premium
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Jul 13, 2014
Messages
49
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New Hampshire
This is a mentaI question, just as a heads up.

I find mixing up my approaches and especially my movement to be difficult. Is there a mnemonic trick I can use to remind myself of when I'm being predictable with these two things, or does that just kind of come with time/experience?

I'm a noob, so bear with me if the answer is obvious.
 
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Gunslinger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
103
Location
Tallahassee, Florida
This is a mentaI question, just as a heads up.

I find mixing up my approaches and especially my movement to be difficult. Is there a mnemonic trick I can use to remind myself of when I'm being predictable with these two things, or does that just kind of come with time/experience?

I'm a noob, so bare with me if the answer is obvious.
Whenever you get hit you have to ask yourself why you're getting hit (was it a poorly spaced nair, a missed l-cancel, etc) and you need to adapt to that once your opponent is done punishing. Catching yourself on auto-pilot becomes easier with time. In terms of mixing up movement, if basic dash dancing or wavedashing doesn't help, try wavelands on platform or tomahawks into wavelands
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
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Washington
To get out of Fox/Falco utilt combos, is there a better way to DI and SDI the utilt/utilts or is either way the same?
 

Estwood

Smash Apprentice
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Do any of you guys have tips for Multishining with Fox? I can do 2-3 consistently with Falco but I think my trouble has something to do with how fast you have to do the shines. I use Y to jump
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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Do any of you guys have tips for Multishining with Fox? I can do 2-3 consistently with Falco but I think my trouble has something to do with how fast you have to do the shines. I use Y to jump
Slide your finger across Y and B, Fox and Falco Multishine way differently position wise and speed wise.
 

SmashBroski

Smash Ace
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Any tips on how ot SHDL?

I can somewhat do it in Project M and in Training mode at 1/4, 1/2, and 2/3 speed but at normal speed I can seem to get it... I think the concept works like so: jump, then immediately hit :GCB: before you reach the apex of your short hop then :GCB: again.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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Any tips on how ot SHDL?

I can somewhat do it in Project M and in Training mode at 1/4, 1/2, and 2/3 speed but at normal speed I can seem to get it... I think the concept works like so: jump, then immediately hit :GCB: before you reach the apex of your short hop then :GCB: again.
First off this is in a Melee Fox Discussion Thread not the one for PM, second the Jump Squats in PM are WAY different than Melee. I'd use the 20XX Hack Pack to help you in Melee Imo.
 

bearsfan092

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
402
I'm new to fox, and I have been having troubles against a local link. Any tips of the matchup? It seems difficult to approach and get a true combo started
A bit late, but no one replied to you, so I might be able to help.

So basically the Fox-Link matchup is theoretically super in Fox's favor in neutral, and the best way to do that is kinda like Peach in that you wanna dash dance outside of Link's attack range (use Link's dash attack as a spacing guide). Then you watch your keys for him pulling a bomb/boomerang and make sure you're on top of him when he does it. The moment he does anything laggy (i.e. pretty much all of Link's moves), you can then close the gap and put on some pain via drillshine > upsmash for some virtually guaranteed damage, or otherwise get him off stage.

Note that dash dancing in this range leaves you a bit more vulnerable to getting grabbed out of your dash dance, which is one of the more unique dash dance hazards in the game. If this happens more than once or twice, either increase your dash dance distance away a tiny bit (partially respecting the chain but not fully since it is dodgeable), or increase the aggro.

In neutral, this is actually one of the few matchups that I would err on the side of being more aggro (but smart) than campy. Even if you hit Link's shield, his OoS game is really bad, so shine grabs and shine pressure are pretty free. Going campy can work on DL, but if you let Link set up shop with bomb/boomerang walls, the matchup gets significantly harder. By being close and threatening whenever Link tries to set up, you mitigate the risk of the wall being set up to Link's liking.

Edgeguarding Link can be kinda hard against good Links since there are a lot of hitboxes being thrown around during his recovery. However, smart use of refreshing ledge invincibility > bair can cut through. In general, the best angle Link can take during recovery using his UpB is slightly below you so that hitting a Fox ledgehop bair with invincibility is at its most difficult. However it is possible to have invincibility during this part, but the timing requires you to know exactly when to refresh, drop down, and bair through that particular UpB positioning. As far as UpB is concerned, if he goes higher than that, it's a free bair, and if he goes lower than that, he's dead to a shine.

The chain is another recovery option you should be aware of. The situation I run into the most is that I'm refreshing ledge invincibility and Link chains the lip of the stage where I'm refreshing. At any rate, you'll grab the ledge and get your invincibility, and the Link will be danging from the chain. You can drop down shine the Link as he pulls up from the chain. If you have trouble with that timing (especially with tournament nerves), you can also stay on the ledge. When Link pulls up, it forces him to do this little hop thing at the end of his pullup, which you can hit with a bair.

Hope this helps!
 

SamSun

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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When upthrow upairing, is it faster to double jump as fast as you can > upair, or full hop rising up air?
 

Pud'N

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2014
Messages
71
Location
Bedford Indiana (30 min from Btown)
Ok so to me this question is kinda complex and sort of a style issue, ok so

Im a relatively technical player and have no real problem using moderate techskill in gameplay (things like shine waveland mixups, edgecancels, and moonwalk bair edgeguards) but like I find it hard to decide when I should be shining after an aerial and when i shoul just try to follow up aerials.

Against a character like falco who falls down after shine i almost ALWAYS try to go for shine after i hit an aerial at any percent. It feels like this is not optimal and a followup is not 100% guarenteed but i also dont feel confident chaining aerials at low percents
against characters like peach, falcon, and even marth i always try to setup drillshine combos at low or high percents because it feels like the biggest reward will come from them, howeer i occassionally mess these up and get like 15 percent out of it and get punished.

Do you guys feel like practicing techskill to obscene levels for these consistent shine heavy comboes is a good approach to foxs combo game on all characters, or that chaining aerials into grabs is almost always better?

If possible Id like some specific advice on situations that someone could write up, thanks!

EDIT: P.S I also cannot reverse waveshine. Like anytime I waveshine and try to go backwards I turn around in my shine. When i do it correctly it provides the same effect, but because the timing is diffeent i get stuck in my shine often
Is a reverse waveshine better for any reason or is working out the timing to be consistent for turnaround waveshines equally as good?
 
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Pr0fessor Flash

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What's a good way mixing up tech rolls because I have taken a break to think and say Don't do it to myself but it doesn't work?
 

Mc Phillis

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Montreal
I'd like to edge cancel side-b on every stage (not on a platform, on the edge) for swag, you know..
Is there any pictures with visual clues as to, where should I input the side-b to edge cancel (and not fall to my death)
Thanks
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
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Washington
What's a good way mixing up tech rolls because I have taken a break to think and say Don't do it to myself but it doesn't work?
I heard (I don't know if it's true) that Mango just hits the stick back and forth when teching so that it's random and not even he knows which way he'll go.

I'd like to edge cancel side-b on every stage (not on a platform, on the edge) for swag, you know..
Is there any pictures with visual clues as to, where should I input the side-b to edge cancel (and not fall to my death)
Thanks
It's always the same distance, regardless of whether it's on a platform or the stage, so just look at the actual distance on a setup you know to platform cancel it and try to start the illusion that far away from the ledge.
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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I heard (I don't know if it's true) that Mango just hits the stick back and forth when teching so that it's random and not even he knows which way he'll go.


It's always the same distance, regardless of whether it's on a platform or the stage, so just look at the actual distance on a setup you know to platform cancel it and try to start the illusion that far away from the ledge.
I tried the Mango way in the past but it didn't work
 

Gunslinger

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
103
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Tallahassee, Florida
What's a good way mixing up tech rolls because I have taken a break to think and say Don't do it to myself but it doesn't work?
I think most people have a particular tech option that they like to read. I know this Falcon that pretty much solely relies on tech in place reads (he loves dair or charging f-smash). Once you figure out their favorite thing, just do another option to condition them to start reading it, then do the other option. If your opponent is of a higher caliber they'll start reading your mixups. if that is the case start repeating the same option to condition them to punish it, then choose another once you feel like they're catching on. Another more general option, that works wonders on Falcon and Sheik's d-throw tech chases, is to DI one way, then tech in the opposite direction. An opponent who has good dash dance control will be able to beat this, but it definitely tricks a lot of people. Once they catch on, tech in the same direction you DI. Mango said that teching in place isn't that good because you're not making your opponent do any work. If you're on the edge, resist the overwhelming urge to tech in. If you're at high percent, avoid teching away. These are very instinctual, common habits, and thus very easy to read.

tl:dr identify if your opponent covers the same option all the time or likes to read mixups and mindgame accordingly. Be unpredictable basically. Or main someone wtih a better tech roll, like Falco, and spam tech in place shine
 
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Berble

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
131
Location
Marin, CA
when another fox is trying to bthrow shine spike you how should you di the bthrow and what are some good options to avoid the shine once off stage?
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
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Aug 28, 2008
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15,287
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The Netherlands
That's very dependent on their habits and yours. Your options are basically:

Jump back -> Up-B/side-B - This is the one that gets shinespiked the most but it requires the most commitment from them. Make sure they respect this option but don't overuse this.

DI inwards and grab ledge - Pretty safe option, still shinespikeable but more difficult. Recognize if they grab the ledge quickly and jump up in time.

Shinestall and wait for them - Also shinespikeable of course and gives them more time to react.

DI out and up and instant side B to ledge - Pretty dangerous but unorthodox
 

tauKhan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
1,348
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB2klN3Tiog How do you do this? 17:27 Is it similar to a Scar Jump?
It's a doraki wall jump, a technique that allows you to wj directly after grabbing ledge. I don't know exactly how it works, maybe someone else can fill this out for me @Kadano @Stratocaster @schmooblidon

I do doraki jumps by double jumping to grab the edge while holding toward the edge before grabbing the edge and immediately releasing stick after the grab. Then when I press away after ledge grab animation (CliffCatch) I wj immediately. The way you grab the edge affects whether you can do this or not and stages matter too. It's also easier with some wj chars and impossible with others.
 

zz_halim

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
161
Location
Krefeld, Germany
Hey I've got a question about Shine OOS and Multishine in general.
Say you hit someone so the shine sends them behind you and you want to follow up with a clean Up-Smash. (i mean the hitbox in front of Fox
Would it be benefical to turn around in the Shine since you have to wait that Fox lands in the shine before you can wavedash?
I mean you wouldn't have to turnaround later after the wavedash, so theoretically you save some frames for the whole sequence?
This is based on the assumptionn that every turnaround needs 3 frames ( in shine and normal turnaround)
 

AnEnemyMongoose

Smash Cadet
Premium
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
49
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New Hampshire
Stupid question that I'm sure everyone else knows the answer to (consider I can't find it anywhere), but how come I can't react to Fox's side-b when I'm edge-guarding? I know Falco's is significantly harder to react to, but with Fox's it just feels like I'm moving my fingers as fast as I can to ledge-hop > b-air but I always miss by half a second. I see tons of really good players getting the edge-guard like it's a piece of cake but it's actually hard for me.

Any tips for working on this?
 

Pr0fessor Flash

Smash Master
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Stupid question that I'm sure everyone else knows the answer to (consider I can't find it anywhere), but how come I can't react to Fox's side-b when I'm edge-guarding? I know Falco's is significantly harder to react to, but with Fox's it just feels like I'm moving my fingers as fast as I can to ledge-hop > b-air but I always miss by half a second. I see tons of really good players getting the edge-guard like it's a piece of cake but it's actually hard for me.

Any tips for working on this?
If you're on the ledge IDK maybe keep practicing it but if you're on the stage Up tilt will hit if you time it correctly.
 
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