Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[CeLL]

What are my options when I'm in my shield and I know Falco is going to SHL -> grab?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Depends on the spacing which determines how many frames you have between the laser and the grab. Do you mean he is approaching with lasers and will go for a grab, or do you mean he is literally on your shield doing lasers (eg https://gfycat.com/ScratchyEntireIndri) and will grab after?

If he must move forward you can grab his grab. This will get you punished for free if your read is wrong though

Similar to above, you can sh dair OoS to beat his grab if he has to move forward. Maybe less punishable, but not by much. If your back is to him, bair him obviously.

Fullhop. If he wiffs grab you can falling uair and begin a combo. If you get too predictable he can full hop aerial to shut you down, but otherwise its a pretty safe choice.

You can certainly spotdodge or roll to avoid the grab. Good chance for getting punished if he waits.

Wavedash back. If you have stage to work with, this should get you out of range of the grab and possibly allow you to counter. If he waits you should be free of the pressure altogether.

Shine OoS. Blink Blink.

Probably missing something

 

[bearsfan092]

WD OoS all day in that situation. Or you can tank the laser and hit the dash out of laser's hitstun. Both work

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Repositioning yourself is almost always the best option when you're in a negative situation. Attacking from a negative situation is one of the easiest ways to get predicted and severely punished.

 

[CeLL]

So I just accidentally did something trying to running shine -> turnaround -> wavedash to edgehog. I ended up getting stuck in the shine as I turned around but while usually I just fall off in shine when that happens, this time I grabbed the ledge. Is that just because I let go of B at the perfect moment while above the ledge?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When you are sliding off the stage, if you enter your jumpsquat animation but slide off before going airborne you dont jump. You can shine -> jump and cancel your jumpsquat by falling off the edge and are able to act immediately. There was once a video of a guy showing off a bunch of tricks you can do with this, but I cant find it now.

 

[CeLL]

This is the dumbest question but how do you punish a Samus for literally spamming bombs? Like I ended up 3 stocking the player twice in the Bo3 set but I ran into so many bombs. I assume laser camping is an option but I'm not big into that.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hahaha yeah i've done the same thing. I've never met a good player who spams bombs, so I never really bothered to learn a counter strategy. There are a few bomb tricks that can be done, but they are all pretty transparent (eg, superwavedash, its not hard to see it coming)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So I just accidentally did something trying to running shine -> turnaround -> wavedash to edgehog. I ended up getting stuck in the shine as I turned around but while usually I just fall off in shine when that happens, this time I grabbed the ledge. Is that just because I let go of B at the perfect moment while above the ledge?

I reread this. Do you mean you just let go of B while stuck in shine? Yes you can turn around in the shine and drop shine, then fall to edge. After 20 frames in shine letting go of B starts the shine drop animation which lasts 19 frames according to SDM's data.

 

[CeLL]

I reread this. Do you mean you just let go of B while stuck in shine? Yes you can turn around in the shine and drop shine, then fall to edge. After 20 frames in shine letting go of B starts the shine drop animation which lasts 19 frames according to SDM's data.

It was like I did the shine, turned around in it, but jumped too early (during the turnaround animation), and then slid backwards off the ledge and grabbed it immediately, kind of reminiscent of a pivot edgehog.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

edit- so the jumpsquat never came out? And you released B?

 

[tauKhan]

@ CeLL I think what @ Fortress | Sveet suggested first is what happened; You probably didn't jump too early, but instead your jump got canceled because you slid off the edge. The technique is usually called shinehog:

Is that what it looked like?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thats what I was talking about in my first post. When I reread, it sounded like he simply meant he got stuck in shine and didnt jump, then released B as he slid off stage, fall and grabbed edge.

Its definitely one of these two, but which ... idk lol

 

[Spluvin]

I have been trying to waveshine shiek to follow up with a turnaround u-tilt to see if it's any good but havn't been able to do it once in 15 minutes or something. I always turnaround f-tilt angled up. Is it a good option and is there a easy way to do it?

 

[bearsfan092]

It's a good option. Is there an easy way to do it? No. Can I do it? No.

Leffen sure looks sick as hell when he does it though. If you're in kill range, you can just upsmash obviously. Utilt is great because it combos into stuff like bair. You can get a lot of the same job done by grabbing after a waveshine instead of utilt. If you somehow have time left over after doing fundamentals and all the other tech stuff that you need, feel free to work on it. Just make sure your priorities are straight.

It's also a good drill in stick control, so I suppose drilling it isn't all that bad. Have fun with it

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

I have been trying to waveshine shiek to follow up with a turnaround u-tilt to see if it's any good but havn't been able to do it once in 15 minutes or something. I always turnaround f-tilt angled up. Is it a good option and is there a easy way to do it?

Try to get perfect wavedashes out of shine. To practice try doing a backwards drill -> reverse waveshine -> uptilt. If you're good at making this connect then you're wavedashes are solid. Then its just a matter of doing the turnaround uptilt from a waveshine facing her.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I have been trying to waveshine shiek to follow up with a turnaround u-tilt to see if it's any good but havn't been able to do it once in 15 minutes or something. I always turnaround f-tilt angled up. Is it a good option and is there a easy way to do it?

Waveshine Down tilt can be a good option too

@ CeLL I think what @ Fortress | Sveet suggested first is what happened; You probably didn't jump too early, but instead your jump got canceled because you slid off the edge. The technique is usually called shinehog:

Is that what it looked like?

Speaking of Shinehog how do you do it?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Speaking of Shinehog how do you do it?

When you are sliding off the stage, if you enter your jumpsquat animation but slide off before going airborne you dont jump. You can shine -> jump and cancel your jumpsquat by falling off the edge and are able to act immediately. There was once a video of a guy showing off a bunch of tricks you can do with this, but I cant find it now.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Thanks lol

 

[unknown522]

That's how this combo happened https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NdTzTcaosM#t=1m09s

 

[ilikcereal101]

I am new to fox and want to know if there is always 5 frames of hitlag after hitting a shield of someone with the shine. Is their a way to cancel that or do I just have to deal with the 5 frames of lag.

 

[CeLL]

I am new to fox and want to know if there is always 5 frames of hitlag after hitting a shield of someone with the shine. Is their a way to cancel that or do I just have to deal with the 5 frames of lag.

There are 3 frames of hitlag when it is fresh (i.e. when it would deal 5%). I don't know if it goes down to 2 frames when it gets stale. Anyway, there is no way of cancelling hitlag. Luckily both you and the person shielding experience the same amount of hitlag, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[ilikcereal101]

with Falcons I belive its 5 frames so I assumed the same for fox, thank you!

 

[CeLL]

with Falcons I belive its 5 frames so I assumed the same for fox, thank you!

Yes Falco's is more because hitlag is based on damage, and Falco's does more damage.

 

[ilikcereal101]

Yea his does 8%

 

[tauKhan]

@ CeLL @ ilikcereal101 Foxes unstaled shine does 4 frames of hitlag on the fox and 6 frames on the victim (since shine is electric) assuming the victim doesn't crouch. However the hit frame is also included in the hitlag value, so from another perspective it has 3(/5) frames of additional hitlag. It takes quite a bit of staling to reduce the hitlag to 3 frames (which is also the minimum on attacker), since it only happens if the shine does less than 3%, where it does 5% unstaled. Even if your last 6 hits were shines (while other moves on the staling slots aren't shines) the shine still does 4 frames of hitlag.

 

[CeLL]

@ CeLL @ ilikcereal101 Foxes unstaled shine does 4 frames of hitlag on the fox and 6 frames on the victim (since shIine is electric) assuming the victim doesn't crouch. However the hit frame is also included in the hitlag value, so from another perspective it has 3(/5) frames of additional hitlag. It takes quite a bit of staling to reduce the hitlag to 3 frames (which is also the minimum on attacker), since it only happens if the shine does less than 3%, where it does 5% unstaled. Even if your last 6 hits were shines (while other moves on the staling slots aren't shines) the shine still does 4 frames of hitlag.

Oh my numbers are for on shield (I am 110% certain they are correct for on shield). They are different on hit? And different for attacker/victim on hit?

 

[ilikcereal101]

Yea I went back and watched hax and when he does his actions the stage wave shines they do 3%, do you guys know how many hits it takes to stale I'm not sure cell I would imagine there the same cuz hitlag is hitlag

 

[tauKhan]

@ CeLL Hitlag is always the same on shield for the attacker, (4 frames fresh shine). Electric hits do 1,5 times the hitlag on the victim but only on hit, on block the victim receives same hitlag as attacker assuming no crouch.

@ ilikcereal101 Melee displays floored down percents, you can't just look at the percents to tell how much damage exactly moves do. The shine can do 3,xx dmg reasonably often, but to do under 3 it needs to be staled at least 7 times, and most of recent hits must be shines.

 

[Berble]

this isn't directly fox related but i've heard to sdi out of sheiks jab reset you need to be at 35% (1 sdi input) and below that you need multiple inputs

to do the multiple inputs should i smash up and let it reset to neutral then smash up again or should i mash the stick from up left to up right?

 

[net1234]

What do u think about nair/shine/drill as approaches, ive always seen running shine as more of a way to punish lag but after seeing leffen use it so effectively i want to understand it a lil bit better. i know it beats crouch cancel obviously so good for samus/peach but what other benefits does shine have over say nair. What are situations i should approach with shine rather than those other moves?

 

[bearsfan092]

Way lower commitment. Think about an aerial. You got the jump startup, the amount of time you're actually flying through the air, and the lag of an L cancelled aerial (even worse if you miss the L cancel). The tradeoff is greater range and immediate striking power.

The shine keeps you grounded. You can wavedash out of it, either away on whiff or toward on hit. It's a combo starter on a lot of the cast. The startup is so fast you can beat a lot of moves even if you move second by a tiny amount. The tradeoff is lower range, and certain characters are harder to running shine in neutral (nair happy Falcons if they space well).

It's useful to various degrees in pretty much every matchup. It's vital in grounded DD heavy matchups (Marth, opposing Foxes, etc.)

There isn't a single approach answer with Fox, despite how overinfatuated Fox mains are with nair.

 

[Berble]

can i nair samus at low percent and buffer shield to avoid the cc dsmash?

 

[bearsfan092]

Don't think so. Don't nair samus at low percent.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

How do you stop a Spot Dodging Habit? I seem to always do it because I'm scared of getting Grabbed and IDK how to get the mind not to do it a lot.

 

[ilikcereal101]

I think the best way is to just practice honestly that's the best way to do everything in this game

 

[KevJames]

Just have to realize that there are a ton of better options than spot dodging. That isn't to say that spot dodging is totally useless. The pros still use it from time to time, but it's noticeable at high levels of play that spot dodging can be easily punishable.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes, if you want to stop doing something you should focus on what you want to do in it's place.

 

[jjlinyard]

can i nair samus at low percent and buffer shield to avoid the cc dsmash?

If you do the nair late yes you can but it's a mix up as obviously the follow up only works if they then attack your sheild with like d smash.

 

[tauKhan]

If you do the nair late yes you can but it's a mix up as obviously the follow up only works if they then attack your sheild with like d smash.

If you strong nair crouching samus, it's +6 advantage for samus even if you land immediately. The dsmash hits frame 6, so she can get it. The first frame of shield might not also be big enough to block the dsmash, so she probably has 2 frames window for it under perfect execution from both players.

If she crouches, she cannot crouch cancel the hitstun of weak nair because it then does to little kb, so you can definitely shield before she can dsmash after weak nair in this case.

It she doesn't crouch, but asdi's down, you can shield before dsmash with both strong nair and weak nair.