Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[CeLL]

How is waveshine nair against characters we can't uthrow uair like Ganon and Bowser and the Mario bros?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Don't waveshine nair ever. You are doing a rising nair, so if they ASDI down you're basically screwed.

Is there a reason you don't like waveshine usmash? Also, fox can still shark the characters he can't directly uthrow uair; putting them above you is still pretty good.

 

[EWC]

Waveshine nair is actually pretty good vs some characters once they are at knockdown percent. Depends if you prefer going for a techchase or hunting them as they descend from a launcher. Definitely avoid using it at lower % or you might get grabbed and die.

It's also pretty good at the ledge as a replacement for repeated waveshines->downsmash.

 

[Berble]

waveshine nair
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEE5xmv3hKc

 

[CeLL]

For some reason the orange Fox reminded me of this match. I think that may be where I got the idea from, but idk. He also didn't ledgedash during it so it's not like he always picks the best option, though.

 

[CeLL]

Recently I've been being grabbed out of neutral a lot. Best solution?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Grabbed in neutral in what situations?

 

[CeLL]

They run up and grab me, and if dash back to avoid it they just run farther. I tried doing sh dair or nair in place but then they waited for it to grab.

 

[Catchy]

you could always spotdodge shine but honestly I think you should try nairing/dairing where they are going not where they are/the place between you. Throwing out nair like that could put you in trouble. You could try to bait it out too or something and wavedash back into a move. Sometimes I'll jump towards someone and waveland back as I hit the ground. If I caught someone over extending like you described though. I'd probably go for dtilt since it would probably be the easiest. Sveet is wayyyyy better than me though so wait for what he says and take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

hey so I've noticed when you set up a techchase on a platform vs. falco on battlefield, you can use the light hit of short hop uair to get a reset if he misses the tech, and i thiiiink if he does anything other than tech in place you can still react with a fullhop uair afterwards. can someone confirm if this is a useful thing to be doing, or if there is a better option?

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

hey so I've noticed when you set up a techchase on a platform vs. falco on battlefield, you can use the light hit of short hop uair to get a reset if he misses the tech, and i thiiiink if he does anything other than tech in place you can still react with a fullhop uair afterwards. can someone confirm if this is a useful thing to be doing, or if there is a better option?

Its honestly just better to full hop upair and cover tech in place / missed tech with that and then react afterwards if they tech rolled. I think its really cool to reset people with that set up though lol.

 

[Catchy]

Always cover tech in place. You don't have to ONLY cover it, but always cover it first IMO. Lucky says to use upair on tech in place and react on anything further since upair is so quick.

 

[Wassabi1320]

How do players do mid air shine bair with Fox? Doesn't the shine push the opponent too far to follow up with a bair

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

How do players do mid air shine bair with Fox? Doesn't the shine push the opponent too far to follow up with a bair

It's actually pretty easy. The timing is the same as doing a falco shine bair. Just make sure you space your shine well so that the very top tip of your shine is what hits them then jump out and bair. Its also way easier if your opponent is DIing up which is common survival DI. Uthrow shine bair is pretty much guranteed against spacies since theyre all going to be DIing expecting a bair.

 

[Medz!]

Sup guys haven't posted here in a while lol so at roughly what percents can spacies escape the chaingrab?

 

[tauKhan]

Look up http://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSBM)/Up_throw It's written by Kadano, it's accurate.

 

[Medz!]

Holy crap that actually helps a lot. Thanks man!!

Edit: Any of you guys also struggle vs falco? I find this matchup irritating at times especially vs lame falcos.

 

[bearsfan092]

Falco is annoying as ****. Weird combination of laser spacing, attack speed, and big ass hitboxes make his MU feel pretty different than all the other ones. I'm still working on cutting my spacing down to the minimum without getting screwed by a stray laser/aerial so I can actually get my punishes consistently. "Lame" Falcos make this a lot harder since retreating laser is so good.

By the way I like your Fox Can't wait to see where it'll go in the future.

 

[Medz!]

Yeah i know what you mean dude. I've been practicing my patience against falco cuz lame falcos tend to blow me up if I'm not careful. I practice against Jeff (axe) and tim (vman) but they're not lame at all. Any vids you recommend of good foxes against lame falcos since i need to study that matchup more.

Also thanks dude! My fox is alright lol I'll be going to press start this weekend and I'll be teaming with Jeff if you want see my fox hopefully we can **** **** up!

 

[bearsfan092]

I guess the first question is who is a lame (although I don't like to use the term) Falco. My first instinct was to look at Frootloop for a defensive Falco. There's some Kels-Frootloop video out there, but Kels believes in counterpicking so the matchup sometimes doesn't happen. I'll take a look later.

 

[Catchy]

I would guess a lame falco is a falco who frequently runs away and lasers the whole game, reacting and punishing bad approaches, but still shield pressures shields and punishes jumps while trying to avoid approaching himself.. Probably would use a lot of defensive bairs too. It's not really my place to say what a defensive or lame falco does though so I'll look into it too.

 

[Wassabi1320]

It's actually pretty easy. The timing is the same as doing a falco shine bair. Just make sure you space your shine well so that the very top tip of your shine is what hits them then jump out and bair. Its also way easier if your opponent is DIing up which is common survival DI. Uthrow shine bair is pretty much guranteed against spacies since theyre all going to be DIing expecting a bair.

Thanks! are there any other set ups besides up throw to get the shine bair? Also, does shine bair with fox require faster execution than a shine bair with falco? I used to be a falco main so I am just trying to figure out the timing

 

[tauKhan]

Foxes shine has 1 frame less hitlag, so you can do it 1 frame faster. I don't know whether or not you need to do it faster to get the combo though. Falco's shine bair probably has more leeway I think.

 

[Medz!]

Lame falcos=defensive falcos like forward, sk92, squid, stab etc.

 

[HPVD]

Hey Medz, first post and I got a question for you about Fox shine-bair. I've seen Leffen edgeguard high off-stage with a jumping shine, then retreating bair out of shine to connect and kill. Can you elaborate on this tech?

Also, I'm struggling as Fox against Falco's laser game. I'm resorting instinctively to full hop back air and other cruddy options instead of like WD OOS, can you provide any advice for maneuvering around Falco?

I'll be watching you all @ Press Start, I hope you fox the hardest

 

[Catchy]

Hey HPVD, Leffen's use is for edge guarding while upthrow shine bair is to guarentee the hit really. I'm assuming what you're talking about for leffen is shine to turnaround and then bair. As for getting around falco, use platforms well and waveland. Try to powershield and also do wavedash OOS like you said. Remember to laser when you can to force him to do the same. Also if he has you on the ledge, use your ledge invincibility!!! Super important. Run shine and grabs are also very important. Possibly try dair shining from a platform or as an approach but be careful (but NOT from the ledge = unsafe!). Remember that run shine is a good mixup and a really good combo starter along with grab. Upthrow chain grab/upsmash are AWESOME. If he shields, shield pressure with late nair, shine, wavedash back. if he shields longer than he should, start shine grabbing. Overall check the ace arkwing matchup guide, ask experience people, want leffen vs pp, armada vs mango and other matches for help. You win this matchup by being quick and smart. Leffen does a great job edgeguarding pp (except for a cloud mixup) at mlg so check it out.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Lame falcos=defensive falcos like forward, sk92, squid, stab etc.

You could always watch a fox take apart Zanguzen considering he's one of, if not the most, defensive Falco player.

 

[SSBMLahti]

After watching a recent set of mine, I've realized that vs Sheik that I get very intimidated in the neutral. I also seem to have VERY lackluster punishes. My edgeguards seem to be my strongest aspect vs Sheik.

Can anyone provide knowledge on the neutral game vs Sheik and perhaps very detailed explanation regarding punishes (%'s, etc)?

I will be grinding my heart out and attempt to learn everything I can myself but any insight from others is greatly appreciated.

 

[Catchy]

>don't get grabbed
>crouch cancel shine (into a combo preferably) dash attacks and ftilts, don't shield too far away (sweet has a great comment below on shielding and punishing her attacks OOS tho!) (you'll get grabbed).
>don't get grabbed
>laser, laser, laser
>don't get grabbed
>run shine into upsmash, grab (upthrow up air! :D), and nair.
>don't get grabbed
>don't early nair into her shield (or at her in general at early percents)
>don't get grabbed
>don't run into downsmash

of course it's way more complicated than that. Post a video!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My general gameplan against sheik is to wait. She can't approach very well; if you stay at the edge of her range she can only reach you with dash attack or boost grab. Good sheik players will counter this by slowly cutting off your space until you are forced to directly engage them, occasionally they will do the dash attack/boost grab mixup. In general you can punish all of her ground moves if you shield them, but you must know what you are doing.

Dsmash - wavedash forward shine -> wavedash usmash/grab
Ftilt - shine, grab, usmash, dair
Dtilt - if they are spaced, i think usmash is the only thing that will reach quick enough.
Utilt - shine, possibly grab. The key to punishing this move isn't to wait til the move ends: there isn't enough time. Instead, you have to act between the first and second hits of the move.
Jab - this is pretty safe if they are spaced. Otherwise you can shine or grab it

 

[Catchy]

hey sveet, what do you do about a marth cornering you? Let's say that marth is coming towards you and whiffs a move, but you don't run back fast enough to punish with a grab, so he takes the space from you. How do you get that space back? I don't want shield, because then I get grabbed. I don't want to jump, because I'm sure a walling fair would punish me if he was prepared for a jump. I don't want to crouch because dtilt. And I don't want to run at him with a move because wavedash back fsmash. If he's prepared it seems like a very sticky situation.

Is the best thing to get invincible ledge dashing down so I can safely get him to back off long enough to reach center stage or at least the platforms?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Melee is an unforgiving game. If you aren't punishing your opponent properly you're going to have a bad time. There is no "right" decision to make once you've forfeited all stage control and trapped yourself in a corner: the answer is to not forfeit stage control. Invincible ledgedashes will help your game, for sure, but it is not a solution for the larger problem.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

hey sveet, what do you do about a marth cornering you? Let's say that marth is coming towards you and whiffs a move, but you don't run back fast enough to punish with a grab, so he takes the space from you. How do you get that space back? I don't want shield, because then I get grabbed. I don't want to jump, because I'm sure a walling fair would punish me if he was prepared for a jump. I don't want to crouch because dtilt. And I don't want to run at him with a move because wavedash back fsmash. If he's prepared it seems like a very sticky situation.

Is the best thing to get invincible ledge dashing down so I can safely get him to back off long enough to reach center stage or at least the platforms?

There's not going to be a "right" or an optimal answer to a question like this. Any action you do has a counter to it.

You need to look at your opponents habits and see what kind of Marth they are and if they prefer walling with fairs or using dtilt etc. etc. and try and choose your action based on what they usually do instead of guessing or trying to do whatever's optimal in the situation.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

vs. defensive Falco:

Abuse platforms if available, shoot them from platforms back. If you see them jumping away from you and firing a laser, you can use reflector for its intended purpose fairly safely. At closer ranges, you can CC laser -> punish. Fullrun or walk shield to slide in blocking vs attempts to wall you out. Otherwise poke retreating moves like bair. Having either quick out of shield game or good powershielding are essential in dealing with Falco's lasers if you don't want to get hit.

vs. Sheik:

Grab her instead. Lol. Combo into non up smash attacks to keep her in an edgeguard position for when she's DIing up-KO moves. Lasers. Utilt. Bair. Pressure her with presence, stay spaced to deny wavedash forward, make her respect your pressure: space outside of nair OoS range, block it when in range but out of shield grab range, wd OoS into destruction. She'll probably start rolling and spotdodging more, destroy this. Don't mess up waveshines. Shield DI in on most attacks to get a punish. Shield DI ac fair (or avoid it alltogether) and low nair outward to avoid mixups (also do this with jabs if they have good jab pressure timings).

In general, if you've been getting grabbed, see where it's happening and try to play around those situations.

vs. Marth when cornered:

Can the Marth pivot grab and pivot down-tilt? If yes, you might be slightly screwed. Otherwise.... The corner's rough. If you have invincible ledgedash that's great, but otherwise, overshoot approaches of any kind if he attempts dashback. If he's stands his ground, advancing slowly may be a bit better. It's better to be in tipper range ready to block or spotdodge than in dtilt range at all. If you can get super close, Marth's royzone isn't covered very well outside of uptilt.

This may sound kind of janky but if you spotdodge on the same frame Marth does any attack (that won't hit the spotdodge for starting on the same frame as it), he can't really punish it. He can counter this by dash dancing or doing nothing, but because people value stage control, he'd expect a roll sooner. He may dash back as it covers a roll to center stage and an attempt to jump out of the corner, and he might abuse the lack of room you have to do moves that can beat attempts to attack, but aren't necessarily safe on shield (fsmash would beat any aerial if he has room, while those same aerials can go over dtilt, and can push you off the ledge). If you do continuous buffed spotdodges, it's also an 8 frame window to punish, which while absolutely doable, is also how long you're turning around not moving in a dashdance. Marth's also lacking in active frames. With that said, I am absolutely not suggesting that you spotdodge over and over. But spotdodge downsmash or jab, or yes, shine, could all help deal with Marthy behavior. You can also try to make him think you're about to roll or spotdodge by shielding a little first. If it's unlikely you'll be punished on hit with these moves, most Marths aren't going to expect you to just ftilt or dtilt, and there's a fair number of ranges those can get you around moves that aren't dtilt.

To avoid being put in the corner, you can try using bairs at different timings as you build percent. Doing this may initially cost some ground, but when you're knocking Marth away with them, not really. You could also be the aggressor, or use a lot of aerials OoS as the shield can beat most of Marth's moves and nairing before he quite gets to you can beat the grab.

Hmm, I just realized I didn't even mention platforms. Yeah, on FD it's rough vs. Marth anyway. Have good shield drops and platform movement. Easiest solution.

I suppose if you're confident in your ability to use air dodge to actually dodge stuff, triangle jumps can help against Marth since he has so few active frames. Triangle landing as well, if you fulljump and he goes to the air to chase you.

If your shield DI is godlike, you can beat dtilt anyway even when it's space really well because this game is messed up at closer to TAS levels (dtilt manages to hit frame 9, not tremendously likely for someone to do this consistently, 6 frames shieldstun if dtilt is unstaled, shield DI during hitlag into shine OoS has 1 frame of leniency. Grab can also work). More realistically, holding in into c-stick up buffed jump oos->nair has a decent shot at working, but beward CC.

If you're at the right ranges, a good nair beats anything outside of Marth retreating, or jab, or dancing blade. Marth's aerials can also work around this if he has time, though he's ideally retreating with those as well. Jab and dancingblade are simply weak at low percents, and no one really does those in the neutral, and they're potentially punishable on hit, even against an aerial Fox.

If you can bait out a dtilt by with the variable speeds you can move forward, and even come fourth with something sudden (that isn't dash attack seeing as if he's thinking about dtilt he may well already be crouching, and thus CCing) you can get around it. Fsmash can clank and continue going forward and hit Marth depending on staleness, ftilt can simply go around it if timed and spaced well.

Not mentioning much outside of grab and dtilt because it's mostly very easy to punish on block or on getting hit (at lower percents). If Marth takes to the air, where he'll end up is fairly predictable, so you can space around where aerials can go and punish, or just use shield.

If Marth isn't CCing (like a lot of the time he's moving or if he's approaching with grab) jab is actually really good, but you need to be able to do the second jab immediately in the event he shields facing you (but you don't necessarily have to do it immediately). If he is CCing, it just sucks.

If you can grab Marth, do it. You can reverse the situation or get him in the air, neither of which are desirable for him at all. Dthrow tech-chase is easier in the corner too, but you shouldn't go for it against Marth, really.

TL;DR for Marth:

More or less a guessing game. You get more options when Marth has more percent. If platforms are available, use them. Spotdodge or triangle jump can work, and are mostly to punish Marth actually using an attack. You mostly have to worry about dtilt and grab, other moves are either punishable on block, punishable on getting hit at lower percents, or aren't that difficult to maneuver around/poke through (and you can still poke through both, and punish dtilt on shield if you're just really godlike or it's stale/misspaced). Aerials get around dtilt, and like many other moves, can poke around grab as well. Jab is godlike unless Marth CCs or blocks facing you, and even in the latter case it's not that bad; use it to get around movement and stuff grabs. If you can get a grab, do it. Baiting out moves may be harder with less ground, but it's not impossible, and Marth can't afford to whiff.

 

[Diabolical PIe]

Hey guys, quick little random question. Is it possible to hax-dash with fox and retain full invincibility from the ledge? Invincible wavelands from the ledge onto the stage aren't too hard, but I was wondering if this was possible. Thanks!

 

[Pάρί]

Can some send me a gyfcat of a frame perfect ledge dash? Also a frame perfect double shine?

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

I am a Fox struggling with the Falco matchup... largely because I have no idea how to work around the lasers... any and all advice is welcome

 

[SSBMLahti]

Thanks for the Sheik tips everyone. I think my problem is that I was overcomplicating punishes combined with not knowing the proper way to get a punish after certain moves, along with not paying attention to %'s.

I'll work hard boys!

 

[_yuna]

I keep missing the fast-fall when I shffl aerials on shield - and sometimes on hit (moreso nair and bair) pls help what do. Can do it consistently when not on hit or shield though.

This **** has been a problem for a long time for me. Just kinda been lazy and figured it'd sort itself out - but appearentely it won't lmao

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When you hit something there is hitlag, where your character and the thing you hit both freeze for a short time. This is the moment where SDI happens.

This hitlag will cause your SHFFL timing to be different than if you were hitting nothing. In the future when you practice your tech skill, try practicing hitting an unlimited health shield in 20XX. If you don't have 20XX, you can set damage ratio to 0.5 and hit a cpu lvl1 bowser.