Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Comet7]

so i got wrecked by a samus. what should i be doing in the neutral? i usually try to shoot lasers and make people come to me, but that hasn't really worked... i feel like i should get better at approaching with nair/dair which i rarely do...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so i got wrecked by a samus. what should i be doing in the neutral? i usually try to shoot lasers and make people come to me, but that hasn't really worked... i feel like i should get better at approaching with nair/dair which i rarely do...

 

[S2rulL]

ok, so i'm an ICs main currently however 20xx is a beautiful thing and fox is pretty ****ing amazing so i may be making the plunge into the life of a fox main. i've been playing a lot of him recently and making sure i know his options for ledgehogging and ledge recovery and shines and all that mullarkey, but i was wondering if there's anything you'd tell a new fox main who has a solid knowledge of the game and its mechanics but is coming from an ICs background?

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'm having trouble approaching. I play a very patient run-and-gun Fox, but when I do decide to go in my only idea is to SH Nair. I may just know more than I think, but what other options does Fox have for approach?

 

[Evoke]

fox has hella approaches
running shine
drill (mostly characters that spam crouch cancel)
full jump bair/nair
empty shorthop
you can get pretty creative since shine makes a lot of approaches + or very barely - on shield and you're fast enough to bait things out and whiff punish

 

[Chainz]

(Idk if this the right place for this post, but **** it)

Was up guys, im looking for any pro or good fox, to do some coaching with over netplay.

Im a young Fox main (been in melee about a month, came from PM (started in Feb) ) i got a good grasp on what to do, and how to do it. If that makes sense. Problem is im in the phrase where i feel "stuck"? again if that makes sense. Theres no other fox player in my scene at the moment. To really help me out.

Soo if anyone can help me out, while doing an actual match. I greatly appreciate it.

I would post a vid showing my play style and all. But i dont have any. I've seen pro fox vids and read the guides and all. But im still not fully understanding everything. So can you guys show me through a netplay match? What it is im not seeing and understanding ?

 

[Sleepy Driz]

One of my friends is a Fox main and I've been grinding out a lot of Fox dittos recently. Every time I approach with drillshine or just any grounded shine in general, I'm not sure what I can do to follow up with since he gets knocked down. I was thinking maybe an upair to cover no tech or tech in place but I feel like I'm likely to just get hit by a getup attack. What do you all usually fallback to in order to continue a combo after knocking another Fox with drillshine?

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

One of my friends is a Fox main and I've been grinding out a lot of Fox dittos recently. Every time I approach with drillshine or just any grounded shine in general, I'm not sure what I can do to follow up with since he gets knocked down. I was thinking maybe an upair to cover no tech or tech in place but I feel like I'm likely to just get hit by a getup attack. What do you all usually fallback to in order to continue a combo after knocking another Fox with drillshine?

Jab reset or react to his wake up options.

 

[BO/\K]

If you can up air where they get knocked down when they get knocked down you either hit their missed tech/in-place or you have plenty of time to dash and cover side techs.

If you aren't that quick or they're too far away, I find run up WD in place just outside getup attack range works well. You have quite the advantage from that position.

 

[tauKhan]

If you can up air where they get knocked down when they get knocked down you either hit their missed tech/in-place or you have plenty of time to dash and cover side techs.

If you cover the tech in place with uair, in the best case scenario you have hitbox out on frame 21 of the tech in place. So you can land on frame 22 the earliest. Thus you become actionable on frame 31, and have 10 frames to punish the opponent before he can act, and that's assuming you uair and land perfectly. Consider that even jc grab takes 8 frames to have hitbox out, so you have barely time to move even then. I think it's probably safe to say that you can't reliably cover all the options this way.

 

[_yuna]

When you hit something there is hitlag, where your character and the thing you hit both freeze for a short time. This is the moment where SDI happens.

This hitlag will cause your SHFFL timing to be different than if you were hitting nothing. In the future when you practice your tech skill, try practicing hitting an unlimited health shield in 20XX. If you don't have 20XX, you can set damage ratio to 0.5 and hit a cpu lvl1 bowser.

I knew that hit-lag existed, but had no idea, unless I am misunderstanding, that the SDI window would "open" for both characters during it - and interpreting your input as SDI. (Causing nothing to happen because you're not in knockback.)

My only idea was that maybe I'd hit them before I reached the apex of my jump. Which would be weird cause I'm not that fast.

Thanks though! I do have 20XX and I have tried practising it a bit, it just gets kinda boring. Hilariously enough I got pretty darn consistent at SHDL over the course of 2 days - because I found practising that to be pretty fun.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My only idea was that maybe I'd hit them before I reached the apex of my jump. Which would be weird cause I'm not that fast.

This could be happening as well. The hitlag will delay all of your timings, so if you do a rising aerial and hit a shield before the apex of your jump, you will need to press down on the control stick that much later than normal.

 

[BO/\K]

If you cover the tech in place with uair, in the best case scenario you have hitbox out on frame 21 of the tech in place. So you can land on frame 22 the earliest. Thus you become actionable on frame 31, and have 10 frames to punish the opponent before he can act, and that's assuming you uair and land perfectly. Consider that even jc grab takes 8 frames to have hitbox out, so you have barely time to move even then. I think it's probably safe to say that you can't reliably cover all the options this way.

Maybe it isn't as guaranteed or good as it's felt. I mostly use it to platform tech chase after an up throw. I must be leaving myself open to a buffered spot dodge beating my dash -> move then?

EDIT:

Actually given the frame data it makes perfect sense why it works so well for platform tech chasing. You uair timed to catch tech in place perfectly. If they tech in place/miss tech, you're good. If you see them tech to the side (which you can see and react to before your uair is even done usually), then you have 10 frames to grab them. A JC grab out of dash will cover the entire platform, so if you just instantly do a JC grab in their tech direction after the uair is over, you'll catch them every time since the effective moving grab hitbox is so wide.

This is susceptible to buffered spotdodge if you aren't frame perfect on the uair->dash link, but you have a 3 frame window to beat buffered spotdodge.

 

[S2rulL]

well, i'm gonna be using fox in tournament for the first time ever on sunday at nes4! been an ICs main for a little over a year now so it's gonna be weird not having the crutch that wobbling is to fall back on. any advice for what to look out for?

 

[BO/\K]

Any general advice for playing against dash dancing characters (Fox Marth Falcon)? I feel lost in neutral against them compared to vs Sheik or Falco.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You just have to play the same game as them. Dash dance for an opportunity and occasionally poke their space. Lots of people will dash backwards when you dash at them, so mix it up and overshoot your attacks. Also, keep in mind you have a gun to 'encourage' them to approach, don't get into the habit of always chasing their DD.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

To do a shine turn around backair, is it better to input straight down b and then quickly rotate the control stick to turn around, then jc bair? Or is it possible to input a slight back angle that does a turn around shine immediately, which you can then quickly jump out of to bair? I remember reading that there's a slight period after a turnaround in shine where you can't jump cancel, and was wondering how pros edgeguard with turnaround back air so quickly while watching videos of Leffen, Armada, and Mango.

 

[tauKhan]

You can turn and jump out of shine with single control stick input by pressing up and back. This is possible because of the long jump buffer. You still have to time it so that you start the turn immediately, so in the case of hit you have to delay the input a bit.

 

[Catchy]

http://www.twitch.tv/m/893201

Fox v Falco: Catchy v Haplostola

Okay guys, I feel like I'm screwing up on some basic things. I think I was throwing out a lot of bad early nairs especially when I probably shouldn't have been approaching at all. In addition I don't think I was playing smart overall. I feel like I did notably better in my second game with edgeguarding and lasering especially. If you guys have any advice let me know.

 

[ThirdDay]

I really like how Falco's down air spikes.

 

[ThirdDay]

I just wish that Fox's down air also spiked, then he would be a perfect character. Fast, good at racking up damage, and can spike.

 

[S2rulL]

I just wish that Fox's down air also spiked, then he would be a perfect character. Fast, good at racking up damage, and can spike.

shine exists, wtf?

 

[BO/\K]

Does fox have an OoS game vs ganon? Can shield DI on his big shield stun moves give me free nair/bairs? I know he can space and poke (after a hit or two) but I thought shield DI + the big shield stun could make offensive shielding work against ganon. Anyone have any experience?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Honestly just wavedashing out of shield puts ganon at a huge disadvantage most of the time, and even more so if he wiffs because of it.

To directly challenge someone out of shield you are looking for them to expose themselves with spacing and lag, and how they have exposed themselves determines what option you should choose. Eg, if ganon jab's your shield you can shield grab it based on frames but maybe not spacing. But if they space themselves properly then attacking out of shield will simply get you punished.

In the end, there is no counter to spacing, you simply have to space yourself better. Wavedashing OoS backwards is safe vs a spaced front attack because they are spaced too far away (respecting the shine/grab/usmash) to attack the space behind you. Ganon is especially bad at this, and also he thrives on people challenging him directly, which is why wavedash OoS is particuarlly effective against him.

 

[Comet7]

What is the best way to finish a chaingrab on another spacie on FD? I've been thinking about doing it like Leffen does with up tilt to bair, but I was wondering if there was a more optimal way to do this.

I'd also like to know if it's possible to waveland from an instant wall jump.

 

[controlpop]

Not really advice but just a quick question. Why do I see a lot of Fox players incorporate a shine before they wave land back onto stage from ledge? Instead of just letting go, double jump and then wave land back on stage, they will shine after they let go. My buddy asked me why i do that and the only answer i really had was "because i see other Fox players do it."

 

[BO/\K]

It's a crutch of sorts. The waveshine muscle memory works for ledgedashes.

 

[Berble]

They are probably too lazy to learn the proper ledgedash or scared they'll mess it up. It wastes invincibility frames and gives them a visual cue (the shine) of what you're going to do. You should just learn the proper ledgedash and never do shine ledgedash

 

[Comet7]

I just wish that Fox's down air also spiked, then he would be a perfect character. Fast, good at racking up damage, and can spike.

just so you know, fox's down air is a spike. it's not a very strong one, obviously, but it has uses.

 

[Pάρί]

Can some explain to me the fox vs falco matchup? I feel like that's the one I have the most trouble with.

Also what are other ways to approach as fox?

 

[Berble]

Has anyone made a Sheik combo flowchart? Specifically wondering what works at 0 (and low percent in general) for every DI

 

[BO/\K]

Grab sucks against Sheik at low %. Nothing guaranteed that I can figure out. Their two options are basically to DJ or not to DJ. If they don't DJ utilt and upsmash hit and keep sheik above you. You can also bair/nair -> regrab but I'm not sure if that actually works or just has worked for me out of surprise/luck (EDIT: see reply. bair/nair are combos out of grab at 0%)

If they DJ, theyre above you without a DJ so you punish that preferably with up air since it'll keep them in the air with no DJ.

The hard part is the reaction window is so small I'm not sure if you can reliably cover both options on reaction. Although I haven't practiced it over and over on reaction to see. The utilt/smash option is a bigger commitment as if they DJ you sit there winding down like an idiot. Whereas if you wait for DJ and they don't it's not like Sheik can do much coming down on you from up throw. Tbh maybe that's the answer.

Because of all this I don't like low percentage grabs on Sheik but if she's shielding or CCing you gotta. It's a shame that sometimes low% Sheik make fox throws feel like falco's -.-

 

[CeLL]

Grab sucks against Sheik at low %. Nothing guaranteed that I can figure out. Their two options are basically to DJ or not to DJ. If they don't DJ utilt and upsmash hit and keep sheik above you. You can also bair/nair -> regrab but I'm not sure if that actually works or just has worked for me out of surprise/luck.

If they DJ, theyre above you without a DJ so you punish that preferably with up air since it'll keep them in the air with no DJ.

The hard part is the reaction window is so small I'm not sure if you can reliably cover both options on reaction. Although I haven't practiced it over and over on reaction to see. The utilt/smash option is a bigger commitment as if they DJ you sit there winding down like an idiot. Whereas if you wait for DJ and they don't it's not like Sheik can do much coming down on you from up throw. Tbh maybe that's the answer.

Because of all this I don't like low percentage grabs on Sheik but if she's shielding or CCing you gotta. It's a shame that sometimes low% Sheik make fox throws feel like falco's -.-

In training mode it says uthrow nair/bair are combos at 0%.

 

[Pάρί]

Wtf do i do against samus! How do i play this god dang matchup!

 

[bearsfan092]

It would be helpful if we knew why you were losing.

Stay close so she can't get stage control with missiles for free, stay out of ftilt range, be ready to follow up any of her wall out moves ending lag with (this is important) drill, running shine, or a grab (if she's conditioned to shield). If you hit her shield, just back off. Just work on nailing the simple punishes that lead into upsmash.

Most Samuses are happy to play in the corner, but most of your offense is going to be earned in small portions when they're here and you're applying good corner pressure. If they're not in the corner, be aware of wavedash back punishes because Samus has some mean tools.

Samus is possibly Fox's most disciplined matchup, so be careful with it.

 

[Comet7]

is jump cancel shine a thing? i don't mean the obvious jumping out of shine, but shining when in jumpsquat so it would be possible to shine while still in the area a dash would cover.

 

[CeLL]

is jump cancel shine a thing? i don't mean the obvious jumping out of shine, but shining when in jumpsquat so it would be possible to shine while still in the area a dash would cover.

Yes, but you have to shine on the first frame you're considered airborne after the jumpsquat, which will be the fourth frame after pressing jump. You can't shine during the jumpsquat. This is how multishining and shine OoS work as well.

 

[BO/\K]

In training mode it says uthrow nair/bair are combos at 0%.

I tried it a bit and I couldn't get it to combo at 0%. I tried full hop and short hop, but in my post I was talking about sh bair/nair -> regrab. I should have made that clear.

 

[Arctic_]

I just wish that Fox's down air also spiked, then he would be a perfect character. Fast, good at racking up damage, and can spike.

fox's dair is a spike

 

[Pάρί]

I have one more matchup to ask about, lol my friend came over last night and we grinded out a bunch of matchs.
He mains Dr.Mario and I found it difficult to play against. What should I be doing against Dr.Mario in the neutral? And how should I be playing against Dr.Mario in general.

< ----- Dr.Mario must die