Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

If she crouches, she cannot crouch cancel the hitstun of weak nair because it then does to little kb, so you can definitely shield before she can dsmash after weak nair in this case.

I'm not sure I understand. Strong nair and weak nair both have the same landing lag. Are you saying that weak nair puts a crouching samus into more hitstun than strong nair?

 

[tauKhan]

I'm not sure I understand. Strong nair and weak nair both have the same landing lag. Are you saying that weak nair puts a crouching samus into more hitstun than strong nair?

Yes, because strong nair hitstun will be canceled via asdi landing, and changed to fixed 4 frames of landing lag. Weak nair is so weak on crouch that it cannot be cancelled by landing, thus the samus undergoes some (a low) amount of hitstun.

 

[Wassabi1320]

Two questions

For chain grabbing what percent are you suppose to start using uptilts

When is drill --> grab guaranteed ?

 

[Wassabi1320]

Two questions

1) For chain grabbing what percent do you start using uptilts
2) when is drill --> grab guaranteed?

 

[bearsfan092]

For the samus discussion it still seems like a pretty bad proposition. Harder to convert off of, harder to space, prone to wavedash back, etc. Neat fact but I wouldn't use it.

@ Wassabi1320 I'm bad at exact percentages but high 40's has been a good spot where I go to utilt. Someone else should answer the drill grab thing, because I'm not even sure if it's a true link. I do it often enough but idk if it's due to slight windows due to human error or whatever.

 

[Binx]

Two questions

1) For chain grabbing what percent do you start using uptilts
2) when is drill --> grab guaranteed?

1) depends on the char you are against but I would do it in general when I couldnt grab but wanted to knock them upwards and an upsmash would be too slow or they would recover from it before I did.

2) never, never ever when your opponent drops their controller.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Drill grab is a combo in plenty of situations. Same frame as usmash (which is a true combo under certain circumstances) with the added benefit that grab beats shield. The main way to dodge the grab is to buffer spotdodge or roll which have 2 frames and 4 frames of startup respectively, which gives more time for the grab to work.

Just don't go trying it against someone with a shine, good players will press downb instead of doing anything shield related.

 

[CeLL]

Drill grab is a combo in plenty of situations. Same frame as usmash (which is a true combo under certain circumstances) with the added benefit that grab beats shield. The main way to dodge the grab is to buffer spotdodge or roll which have 2 frames and 5 frames of startup respectively, which gives more time for the grab to work.

Just don't go trying it against someone with a shine, good players will press downb instead of doing anything shield related.

I remember reading somewhere (I think on this thread) that buffered shield options were a frame slower because the shield had to be up a frame before they started. Is this not true?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I remember reading somewhere (I think on this thread) that buffered shield options were a frame slower because the shield had to be up a frame before they started. Is this not true?

Yes that is true, did my post imply otherwise? Spotdodges have 1 frame startup and rolls have 4 frames. The buffering wastes a frame which is why I put 2 and 5 frames in my post.

edit- rolls are 4th frame invincible not 4 frames startup, my bad. With buffering that means it is 4 frames of startup, my bad.

 

[CeLL]

Yes that is true, did my post imply otherwise? Spotdodges have 1 frame startup and rolls have 4 frames. The buffering wastes a frame which is why I put 2 and 5 frames in my post.

edit- rolls are 4th frame invincible not 4 frames startup, my bad. With buffering that means it is 4 frames of startup, my bad.

Eh sorry I was confusing number of startup frames with the first invincible frame lol

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

I feel like falcos side-b clanks with my moves waaaaaaaay too often. Am I hitting him too early or too late?

 

[bearsfan092]

Low (<10) percent combo starters on Sheik? I have a lot of stuff I can do after that percent, but that range is always tricky. Uthrow doesn't do a lot at that percent. I can always (drill)>(multiple) waveshine>usmash but you gotta respect DI down or CC or whatever and back off since you're at negative frame advantage if that happens. Was wondering if there's anything more sustained I can do.

Honestly now that I think on it, gunning to 20 percent is sounding better all the time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Uthrow is fine. If she does no DI you can sh uair or just utilt. If she DIs you should be able to follow with an aerial (eg, sh uair).

Honestly I don't think about avoiding sheik's CC very much. Drill breaks it no matter what, and well spaced nair and bair are both safe. I spend more time just zoning her on the stage, because if you do that right then her CC is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

What's the frame window for inputting a running up smash after jumping? I use control stick and C-stick up at approximately the same time but I'm wondering how strict that timing is. And does this work out of dash as well?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You have to press up to cause the jumpsquat animation to start. When you press cstick up you are canceling the jumpsquat into an usmash. Therefore, you need to press cstick up before you are airborne, which happens frame 4.

 

[Binx]

Drill grab is a combo in plenty of situations. Same frame as usmash (which is a true combo under certain circumstances) with the added benefit that grab beats shield. The main way to dodge the grab is to buffer spotdodge or roll which have 2 frames and 4 frames of startup respectively, which gives more time for the grab to work.

Just don't go trying it against someone with a shine, good players will press downb instead of doing anything shield related.

What situations? I feel like they could smash DI and roll out no matter what but even then I've had plenty of people get hit with it and roll out before my grab true combo'd I mean you can get the grab often enough that its worth using but he was asking when it was guaranteed which I am still pretty convinced is never.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There are ways to get out of drill combos, especially with SDI. But short of that, dair does true combo into plenty of things that isn't shine. Drill -> utilt is a true combo on every character AFAIK

 

[CeLL]

There are ways to get out of drill combos, especially with SDI. But short of that, dair does true combo into plenty of things that isn't shine. Drill -> utilt is a true combo on every character AFAIK

Is drill utilt a good option against floaties at kill percent then? Also how would it compare to drill jab usmash? These seem like good options but I don't recall top Foxes using them off the top of my head.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think it is a good choice, if you are consistent enough with it. The difficult part about that is turning around for the utilt and starting it immediately. If you can do it, it can save you the hassle of trying to uthrow->uair on characters that can't be waveshined (eg, puff).

Drill->jab is a choice I dont think about very much. As long as your dair hits all the way down, your jab will connect in their hitstun so they can't CC it. They can still ASDI down, though, and while I havent tested the percents I can only assume that jab can be ASDI'd down until 100%+. I think drill->jab->usmash would work if you they dont expect it or you don't do it often, but it does have a counter.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

For the Falco MU and in Fox Dittos, how do you know when you Up tilt or Pivot Grab?

 

[Ogopogo]

How should I be doing a usmash out of a run? Up and A, up and cstick, or crouch and cstick?

 

[vynleren]

I use Up and A, but Up and C-Stick is fine as well. (Up and A gives you the option of charging in case you need to wait a slight amount of time)

I've never heard of anyone using Crouch + C-Stick.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For the Falco MU and in Fox Dittos, how do you know when you Up tilt or Pivot Grab?

Its your choice really. Technically you should be able to regrab all options until ~60%, you only need to utilt when they are able to jump out of the regrab (varies between characters).

How should I be doing a usmash out of a run? Up and A, up and cstick, or crouch and cstick?

Crouch and Cstick is strictly worse, since you have to wait extra frames and you lose your dash momentum. You want to jump cancel usmash out of a dash, how you do that specifically comes down to user preference.

I prefer to claw it and do Y->cstick, the timing is exactly the same as JC grab but with the cstick instead. The benefit of doing it this way is that you dont use the control stick so it doesnt effect your dash. I think it gives you a minuscule extra distance (since you hold forward the whole time instead of switching to up), but the main benefit is that pivot usmash is impossible (for me) without it.

 

[tauKhan]

Crouch and Cstick is strictly worse, since you have to wait extra frames and you lose your dash momentum. You want to jump cancel usmash out of a dash, how you do that specifically comes down to user preference.

Yeah, crouch usmash is 1 frame slower than jc usmash. Jc usmash also has more utility, since you can do it from dash, and from OoS.

 

[Ogopogo]

The benefit of doing it this way is that you dont use the control stick so it doesnt effect your dash. I think it gives you a minuscule extra distance (since you hold forward the whole time instead of switching to up), but the main benefit is that pivot usmash is impossible (for me) without it.

Would just hitting up on the cstick during the pivot frame produce an upsmash?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think that should work, but its stricter timing since there are limited pivot frames while you can JC anytime.

 

[CeLL]

That's how I do it. Speaking of which I know a lot more tech than I apply in game (shine grabbing is the big one). Any tips on applying it in a game?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Just do it. If I'm learning to implement a new trick, I will use it many times in a row even if the situation isn't perfect. We play friendlies for a reason, there is a trade off between playing to win and playing to learn.

 

[SmashBroski]

I've been playing P:M for awhile, learned some Fox techniques, and I've been considering making the transition to Melee though I find some of my techniques more difficult to perform than in PM.

I understand PM is easier - I have some difficulty short-hopping in Melee and if I use Y to jump, I can't really SHDL as much compared to PM. Even if I can, it's like 1 out of 20 or so and i get more mileage if I use the Control Stick to tap jump instead.

Any advice for making the transition; I feel like if I can get Melee's Fox down, PM Fox would be a cakewalk, is that the right mentality or no?

 

[CeLL]

Besides the fact that ledgedashing is strictly better, how good of a ledge option is shine turnaround bair?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Shine turn around bair is a worse version of the ledgehop dair option. People will just wavedash back and hit you, then you are offstage without a jump = dead.

 

[Rob Taylor]

Is there any spacing trick to getting a shine spike on Fox after the flames come out? I've seen Armada getting them recently and I'm not 100% sure if he's timing it to hit when the flames go away for a split second or if there's a certain spacing you need to go for.

 

[EWC]

He definitely is timing it to hit when the fire hitbox goes away (I asked him in person). It is a 10 frame window. The way he sets it up is he jumps and starts to fall from above them, and then he reacts to the position of their upb by fastfalling at a different time depending on the height.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What is a 10 frame window? Pressing shine is a 1 frame window. There is the extra difficulty of spacing, which takes a bit of practice and experience like you said.

 

[EWC]

The hitbox on foxes upb goes away for roughly 10 frames right before he starts moving. If you can time your jump arc so that you overlap opponent fox during that window then it is extremely easy to time the shine.

 

[tauKhan]

The hitbox on foxes upb goes away for roughly 10 frames right before he starts moving. If you can time your jump arc so that you overlap opponent fox during that window then it is extremely easy to time the shine.

Yeah, there's no hitbox on the upb between frames 33-42 (Fox starts moving 43). The shine is intangible though (and there's no hitbox frame 31), so you can realistically shine spike also on the border hitbox frames, so it's actually 12 frame window to get the spike.

 

[Wakening]

When people refer to running shine, are they referring to run-cancel (by crouching) into shine or canceling the dash/run by jumping and shining on the first airborne frame? The latter has a much stricter execution window (essentially the hard part of multi-shining) but can be done out of a dash (similar to JC upsmash). Is it worth learning?

 

[tauKhan]

Running shine is actually neither one; running shine is just shine done during run (yes it's possible). It's a bit difficult to do, since you enter RunBrake when you don't hold forward anymore, and during RunBrake you can't shine. So you have to shine immediately when you move the stick down.

Run -> crouch shine is 2 frames slower than running shine, and thus requires more distance. It also slides less after the hitbox. I don't know how viable jump shines out of dash are, but I know a few players who like to do them when in close range.

 

[bearsfan092]

Best Foxes to watch against ICs? Dizzkid was in town the other week and I hadn't done my homework on the matchup, so my neutral felt really haphazard (and he's just better than me at the moment lol). Looking for Foxes that **really* know the matchup, which actually excludes a few of the big time Foxes I normally watch.

 

[SSS]

This is going to sound stupid but I don't think I jump out of uthrow fast enough, and when I jump too fast I don't jump at all. When during the animation can I jump? Anything to look at to see like Peach's uthrow chaingrab thing where she dashes when the arms are up or whatever?